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[Vawn]

Freedom Gate you've been proven wrong. Let it go.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

The N64 was the start of that hubris and led to the company's biggest decline, both in terms of sales and in terms of total games released for the system. By your own standards, the Gamecube was a scramble to right the ship and yet still suffered from the decline brought on by the N64 (and overall market forces) because the Gamecube had more games and more developers than the N64.

We can verify whether this is the case by looking at Nintendo's handheld market: Game Boy Color also marked a decline during the N64 generation whereas GBA was a recovery (both in sales and in total number of games). This shows a growth in confidence toward the Nintendo brand, does it not?

Yes but N64 gained western developers (SNES lost a lot of them and already had few int he first place), the GameCube post 2003 led to a mass exodus and the Wii wouldn't even see them. The N64 may have been the "start" but the N64 did not effect the COMPANY the way GC did. The reactions internally at Nintendo are extremely important and the fact you write them off just seems very weird to me.

GameBoy Color was a stop-gap because developers wanted more power. You can't really bring up the GBC in a vacuum, there's a reason why Nintendo combined GBC and GB sales together and that's because they never really separated the two. The GBA was announced in japan before the GBC was on the market for a full 2 years iirc. The GBA was also quickly replaced (relatively) and the GBA was recovering the GC losses. N64 didn't have losses. GC had to cause Nintendo to halt production and try to beg companies to release exclusive software, they had to devalue the brand to sell consoles because they wouldn't admit mistakes. They scrapped higher capacity discs to attract developers. The lead of Nintendo at the time Hiroshi said that "the GameCube was losing because of violent games" they KNEW they were ignoring the market and continued to do so INTENTIONALLY. The company has been irreparably damaged internally because of the GC and the western industry has never tried taking a Nintendo console seriously since then either.

To say the N64 was worse just doesn't add up in any way given the GameCube not only effected the company itself much more, but also the (western) industries perspective, the fact Nintendo tried a race to the bottom thinking it would work, Ex-employee testimonies, there's just so much there I find it hard how anyone sane could say the N64 was worse for Nintendo going forward. Heck, they created more self-inflicting wounds during the GC than any of their consoles either.

We're going to have to agree to disagree then. I don't really agree with much of what you've said, to be honest. And that's fine. I think you're drawing some slightly bizarre conclusions. I'm out.

You can't even define what conclusions were bizarre. I mean part of the software situation came out of the president of Nintendo OWN MOUTH but hey, more power to you. This thread isn't about whether the GC was a bad system though it's about metrics. Don't know why so many people are coming in here about taste.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Freedom Gate you've been proven wrong. Let it go.

I haven't and you can't even explain how. You're only here on the taste defense force and that seems to be the only group arguing against the OP. This isn't about your favorite games this is about the impact the GC had on Nintendo.

I find it just as funny that you ignored the other posts pointing out the same thing. Looks more like you're only here to troll and score points.

 

[LucidDreamer]

Metroid Prime. That game alone made the GameCube great

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Yes but N64 gained western developers (SNES lost a lot of them and already had few int he first place),

N64 only gained a handful of developers but lost many more. Consider what N64 didn't have compared to its contemporaries:
- most arcade games skipped the N64, with the notable exception of arcade racers which the N64 did get some good ones like the Rush series.
- most RPGs skipped the N64
- most horror games skipped the N64
- most fighting games skipped the N64
- most shmups skipped the N64

The two genres where N64 did pretty well concerning 3rd parties was shooters (Quake, Doom, and then obviously Goldeneye 007 and PD) and sports games, which I'm lumping wrestling games too since those were popular during that time.

the GameCube post 2003 led to a mass exodus and the Wii wouldn't even see them. The N64 may have been the "start" but the N64 did not effect the COMPANY the way GC did. The reactions internally at Nintendo are extremely important and the fact you write them off just seems very weird to me.

What is this "mass exodus" between the GCN and Wii to which you are referring? The Wii had even more RPGs, racing games, action games, and third-party ports compared to the Gamecube and compared to the N64. These facts conflict with the idea of a mass exodus.

Yes, you can easily chop out half of the Wii library as shovelware but you still have more than double the N64's full library. Wii is a diamond-mine of excellent games. The shovelware doesn't erase the good games.

GameBoy Color was a stop-gap because developers wanted more power. You can't really bring up the GBC in a vacuum, there's a reason why Nintendo combined GBC and GB sales together and that's because they never really separated the two. The GBA was announced in japan before the GBC was on the market for a full 2 years iirc. The GBA was also quickly replaced (relatively) and the GBA was recovering the GC losses. N64 didn't have losses.

Monetary losses isn't the sole criteria for a failed console, in my opinion. As I've pointed out several times now, there was a sharp decrease in games for both the GBC and the N64 compared to their predecessors and their successors. Total number of games is a pretty important metric.

GC had to cause Nintendo to halt production and try to beg companies to release exclusive software, they had to devalue the brand to sell consoles because they wouldn't admit mistakes. They scrapped higher capacity discs to attract developers. The lead of Nintendo at the time Hiroshi said that "the GameCube was losing because of violent games" they KNEW they were ignoring the market and continued to do so INTENTIONALLY. The company has been irreparably damaged internally because of the GC and the western industry has never tried taking a Nintendo console seriously since then either.

The Wii and the Switch have gotten a ton of Western support. I'm not sure where this narrative is coming from.

To say the N64 was worse just doesn't add up in any way given the GameCube not only effected the company itself much more, but also the (western) industries perspective, the fact Nintendo tried a race to the bottom thinking it would work, Ex-employee testimonies, there's just so much there I find it hard how anyone sane could say the N64 was worse for Nintendo going forward. Heck, they created more self-inflicting wounds during the GC than any of their consoles either.

Yes, to say the N64 is worse does adds up in many of the criteria you've listed. But that's just my opinion. You're welcome to the opinion that the Gamecube was worse but only in certain respects and with quite a few caveats. Sales-wise, Wii U was worse. Games-wise, N64 was worse. These two facts stand against the assertion that the Gamecube was "the worst failure" whichever way you choose to cut it.

Perhaps there is an argument to be made that -- in spite of selling better than the Wii U and in spite of having double the games of the N64 -- the Gamecube is still Nintendo's worst failure, but you haven't made a convincing argument for it.

I know you find it hard to believe how anyone sane could have a different opinion than yourself. You're making that abundantly clear throughout this thread.

 

[mckmas8808]

We're going to have to agree to disagree then. I don't really agree with much of what you've said, to be honest. And that's fine. I think you're drawing some slightly bizarre conclusions. I'm out.

Yeah I'm out too. The Gamecube is so clearly NOT the worst Nintendo gaming console that it's probably not worth it for me to keep thinking about this lol.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

N64 only gained a handful of developers but lost many more. Consider what N64 didn't have compared to its contemporaries:
- most arcade games skipped the N64, with the notable exception of arcade racers which the N64 did get some good ones like the Rush series.
- most RPGs skipped the N64
- most horror games skipped the N64
- most fighting games skipped the N64
- most shmups skipped the N64

The two genres where N64 did pretty well concerning 3rd parties was shooters (Quake, Doom, and then obviously Goldeneye 007 and PD) and sports games, which I'm lumping wrestling games too since those were popular during that time.


What is this "mass exodus" between the GCN and Wii to which you are referring? The Wii had even more RPGs, racing games, action games, and third-party ports compared to the Gamecube and compared to the N64. These facts conflict with the idea of a mass exodus.

Yes, you can easily chop out half of the Wii library as shovelware but you still have more than double the N64's full library. Wii is a diamond-mine of excellent games. The shovelware doesn't erase the good games.


Monetary losses isn't the sole criteria for a failed console, in my opinion. As I've pointed out several times now, there was a sharp decrease in games for both the GBC and the N64 compared to their predecessors and their successors. Total number of games is a pretty important metric.


The Wii and the Switch have gotten a ton of Western support. I'm not sure where this narrative is coming from.


Yes, to say the N64 is worse does adds up in many of the criteria you've listed. But that's just my opinion. You're welcome to the opinion that the Gamecube was worse but only in certain respects and with quite a few caveats. Sales-wise, Wii U was worse. Games-wise, N64 was worse. These two facts stand against the assertion that the Gamecube was "the worst failure" whichever way you choose to cut it.

Perhaps there is an argument to be made that -- in spite of selling better than the Wii U and in spite of having double the games of the N64 -- the Gamecube is still Nintendo's worst failure, but you haven't made a convincing argument for it.

I know you find it hard to believe how anyone sane could have a different opinion than yourself. You're making that abundantly clear throughout this thread.

1. Outside Japan the N64 had the genres that were popular and the western devs were net gains. This is something you seem to be hand waiving. Fighting games would be the only real weak area. Almost everything else was a gain.

2. The wii had more games, but lost the top big games and lost a ton of western developers that were not shovelware. Eidos started a mass exodus of western devs dropping Nintendo during the GameCube and some never returned and the few that did just used it as a dumping ground. The whole gen was about the Wii not getting games that were on the 360/PS3. Your statement only really applies to Japan.

3. It's not, as i listed many others and not just losing money. But for some reason you keep boomeranging back to me saying it's the "sole reason" which I never said. Ever. Number of games doesn't mean anything. If the market or the industry does not care for your product or you are having internal meltdowns having more games doesn't suddenly remove all those issues. Wii U had more games than the N64, that didn't do anything.

4. Not compared to the competition it didn't. they didn't. This has been a thing for years so why you're suddenly pretending that Nintendo consoles have "tons" of western dev support, which would also have to be padded out with indies, is a bit silly.

The Wii's first year had it almost 200 games behind both the 360 and PS3 in western devs. This didn't happen with the N64 first year or the GameCubes first year. You are confusing not have many western devs to having none which isn't how this works. Wii lost and didn't see anywhere near as many western devs as the GameCube in retail and a good chunk of the ones that where there were shovelware. If you want to go down release date lists you can, you'll see that clearly. It's only when you add in digital indie games were the Wii is slightly ahead but then it falls behind rapidly even then once you get into the 3 year mark.

The narrative is about quantity and quality, not about whether there was something or nothing. N64 got net gains that transferred to the GC and the GC lost them.

And again there are several issues in the OP as well as ex-employee testimonies, that proves things were worse AT THE COMPANY under the GC than the N64, making it objectively worse with no opinion. They were forced into thing that didn't have to worry about during the time of the N64. You are the only one limiting things to just "number of games" and "sales" ignoring what Nintendo had to do with the Gamecube to sell more than the Wii U in the first place.

Again Wii U didn't destroy the brand value to sell consoles, and they didn't do it because it didn't work for the GameCube. The GameCube is why the Wii U didn't race to the bottom. Again it seems more like this is about your feeling on the console than really addressing the point I made in the OP, hence why you have yet to do so and only have made it about sales and number of games when that doesn't make a successful console (hi 3DO).

But it seems you refuse to do so, so moving on.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Yeah I'm out too. The Gamecube is so clearly NOT the worst Nintendo gaming console that it's probably not worth it for me to keep thinking about this lol.

You didn't even read the Op you been posting about subjective taste since you got here.

And again:

“Hurrr but it has games I like” is such a BS copout response. We get it, your feelings are hurt because OP said something mean about a game console you liked.

OP was clearly making the point that GameCube was Nintendo’s worst console in that it involved many strategic mistakes, and suffered greatly from Nintendo’s arrogance and refusal to learn from past generations. Not that it had zero good games.

Not sure why others don't get the point of this thread but this guy does.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

1. Outside Japan the N64 had the genres that were popular and the western devs were net gains. This is something you seem to be hand waiving. Fighting games would be the only real weak area. Almost everything else was a gain.

Okay, so how many more did they gain? You make things up and then get upset when you're called on it.

2. The wii had more games, but lost the top big games and lost a ton of western developers that were not shovelware. Eidos started a mass exodus of western devs dropping Nintendo during the GameCube and some never returned and the few that did just used it as a dumping ground. The whole gen was about the Wii not getting games that were on the 360/PS3. Your statement only really applies to Japan.

The Wii was so successful that companies were forced to put games on it against their wishes. Call of Duty, Madden, and yearly racing releases still came out on the Wii and still sold.

3. It's not, as i listed many others and not just losing money. But for some reason you keep boomeranging back to me saying it's the "sole reason" which I never said. Ever. Number of games doesn't mean anything. If the market or the industry does not care for your product or you are having internal meltdowns having more games doesn't suddenly remove all those issues. Wii U had more games than the N64, that didn't do anything.

"Number of games doesn't mean anything".

Well, you are wrong. But thanks for showing off your ignorance with such boldness.

4. Not compared to the competition it didn't. they didn't. This has been a thing for years so why you're suddenly pretending that Nintendo consoles have "tons" of western dev support, which would also have to be padded out with indies, is a bit silly.

Why is it silly? It's objectively (ah, that word you love to misuse) true that the systems I listed had more Western support (more games and higher number of developers) than the N64. Since Western support is such a big deal to you, it's important to stick with the facts.

The Wii's first year had it almost 200 games behind both the 360 and PS3 in western devs. This didn't happen with the N64 first year or the GameCubes first year.

Irrelevant.

You are confusing not have many western devs to having none which isn't how this works. Wii lost and didn't see anywhere near as many western devs as the GameCube in retail and a good chunk of the ones that where there were shovelware.

Quantify these opinions with the specific names of these devs, then.

If you want to go down release date lists you can, you'll see that clearly. It's only when you add in digital indie games were the Wii is slightly ahead but then it falls behind rapidly even then once you get into the 3 year mark.

Wii's total library is still significantly larger. I didn't realize we were comparing individual slices of a console's lifespan. So if that's the case, how did the loss of Square Enix to the Playstation brand affect the N64 in 1997?

The narrative is about quantity and quality, not about whether there was something or nothing. N64 got net gains that transferred to the GC and the GC lost them.

In quantity, the Gamecube continued to make gains. The N64 had fewer games than the SNES.
In quality, that's subjective.

The N64 lost the momentum of the NES and SNES and the Gamecube continued that downward trend.

And again there are several issues in the OP as well as ex-employee testimonies, that proves things were worse AT THE COMPANY under the GC than the N64, making it objectively worse with no opinion.

So, you're telling me that subjective testimonies make things objectively worse?

Clearly you don't understand the words you are using.

They were forced into thing that didn't have to worry about during the time of the N64. You are the only one limiting things to just "number of games" and "sales" ignoring what Nintendo had to do with the Gamecube to sell more than the Wii U in the first place.

I'm not limiting anything. I bring up number of games because it's important. I've countered other facets of your "argument", too. The problem is you simply repeat the same information -- sometimes with more vitriol, sometimes with a re-telling of the same anecdotes -- and you don't actually answer any questions. So I find myself having to repeat basic information in hopes that you absorb it.

Again Wii U didn't destroy the brand value to sell consoles, and they didn't do it because it didn't work for the GameCube. The GameCube is why the Wii U didn't race to the bottom. Again it seems more like this is about your feeling on the console than really addressing the point I made in the OP, hence why you have yet to do so and only have made it about sales and number of games when that doesn't make a successful console (hi 3DO).

There's only one person getting caught up with their feelings and it isn't me.

Using statistics and facts is the opposite of "feelings".

But it seems you refuse to do so, so moving on.

Oh no! Please don't move on. You were doing such a terrible job of explaining your points I was hoping you would've started to wisen up, but I guess all my effort was for naught.

Enjoy having your head stuck in a bag of sand.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Okay, so how many more did they gain? You make things up and then get upset when you're called on it.


The Wii was so successful that companies were forced to put games on it against their wishes. Call of Duty, Madden, and yearly racing releases still came out on the Wii and still sold.


"Number of games doesn't mean anything".

Well, you are wrong. But thanks for showing off your ignorance with such boldness.


Why is it silly? It's objectively (ah, that word you love to misuse) true that the systems I listed had more Western support (more games and higher number of developers) than the N64. Since Western support is such a big deal to you, it's important to stick with the facts.


Irrelevant.


Quantify these opinions with the specific names of these devs, then.


Wii's total library is still significantly larger. I didn't realize we were comparing individual slices of a console's lifespan. So if that's the case, how did the loss of Square Enix to the Playstation brand affect the N64 in 1997?



In quantity, the Gamecube continued to make gains. The N64 had fewer games than the SNES.
In quality, that's subjective.

The N64 lost the momentum of the NES and SNES and the Gamecube continued that downward trend.


So, you're telling me that subjective testimonies make things objectively worse?

Clearly you don't understand the words you are using.


I'm not limiting anything. I bring up number of games because it's important. I've countered other facets of your "argument", too. The problem is you simply repeat the same information -- sometimes with more vitriol, sometimes with a re-telling of the same anecdotes -- and you don't actually answer any questions. So I find myself having to repeat basic information in hopes that you absorb it.


There's only one person getting caught up with their feelings and it isn't me.

Using statistics and facts is the opposite of "feelings".


Oh no! Please don't move on. You were doing such a terrible job of explaining your points I was hoping you would've started to wisen up, but I guess all my effort was for naught.

Enjoy having your head stuck in a bag of sand.

1. You can't say I make things up if you do no effort to even attempt to look things up. Game lists and release dates are pretty easy to find. i also find it amazing you are choosing to die on the rpg hill. Yeah the N64 didn't have rpgs compared to the competition. A genre that wasn't popular, in the US for example, Outside 3 games. Because this very form has the top software sales for both the PSX and N64. You don't seem to really know how things work. Rpgs outside of japan were not going to be game changers and the fact you placed that in a post also talking about western dev support is confusing.

2. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ms-wii-third-party-sales-not-pretty

Using clever maths to divide the totals by the number of games released since November 2006, shows Xbox 360 selling an average of 217,252 games per title, the PS3 with 156,065 games per title, and the Wii with 132,517 games per title.

https://www.cnet.com/news/sony-developers-are-moving-from-wii-to-ps3/

The Nintendo Wii might be the most popular console of this generation, but it's suffering from a major issue that could have a profound effect on its success: only first-party titles are selling well on the platform.
To Sony, recent Wii game sales figures from market researcher NPD Group bode well for its own game platform. Speaking to IndustryGamers in a recent interview, Senior Vice President of Publisher Relations Rob Dyer said third-party game developers, looking for a stronger return on investment, are defecting from the Wii to the PlayStation 3

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2008/01/third_party_games_dont_sell

Whilst the sales weren't as high as I hoped, other titles for Wii aren't selling so well either. Only Nintendo titles are doing well. This isn't just because of the current situation in Japan, as this is happening outside Japan.

sure sure sure.

3. Yep, that's why the 3DO with it's near 400 software titles and the Wii u which had more games than the N64 was so suc- oh wait you are a complete fool.

4. Except that this is about the GameCube losing more western support than the N64. try keeping up.

5. It is relevant since you are claiming that the Wii has high western third party support when it doesn't.

6. You aren't even trying to look are you? You're the only person making this argument, heck even the links and quotes I posted above refuting your other point shows your wrong.

7. FF7? You seem to be lost. You're claim was about Wii western third-party support. The gap between the Wii and 360/PS3 in western third-party support in its first year is much wider than the GCs, so you're claim that the Wii did better is factually false.

8. Yes N64 did have fewer games, has nothing to do with western third-party support though.

9. Yes, a confirmed statement from the president using words he actually said is a fact. I know that may be hard for you to take in, you might want to sit down.

10. It isn't important. You have not addressed multiple points in the OP and only have made it about "amount of games" and have even made false claims stated I said "X is the SOLE REASON" when I have more than one reason in the OP You are dishonest.

11. Which you don't have. Mr. "Third-parties had to release on the Wii because it sold so well and the games themselves sold" which you pulled out your ass as proven above in the links.

12. As the only person going crazy and being overly emotional, while also paraphrasing, making up statements, and ignoring the OP putting words in my mouth it's clear you aren't intelligent enough to handle this discussion. Nobody is even defending your arguments and have done so mine which is interesting because You keep saying you know what you're talking about but the only back up you have are people also here talking about personal feelings and their favorite games.

Next time try following the thread. Cheers liar.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

It was also the last time Nintendo tried to flex its muscle. RIP.

 

[BlackTron]

I think the Gamecube's biggest problems were simply that it failed to correct the issues that hampered the N64. They are too similar. The N64 was able to do better because it was first; the Gamecube was just more of the same without fixing anything. By the time GC came along, Nintendo was too far along their third party bleeding crusade with no course correction.

You can get away with "more of the same" iterative advancements in software if you aren't blowing it with a bunch of other decisions -see NES to SNES. Super Mario World was not a big leap over Mario 3; it was just a damn good Mario title that made an appropriate pack-in game.

The cube still used "kiddy" chunky plastic hardware design and still used a limiting media format. Given that media format almost single-handedly cost them the prior generation, the hubris had to be at asinine levels for this to remain a problem.

With the N64 they made a few blunders that could have been fixed for its successor, but they didn't, and unlike the N64, the cube couldn't skate by on hype for 3D games and remaining third party support.

Mind you I spent a TON of time on the GC. It had the games I wanted that gen like Rogue Squadron, Smash and Sonic. I still keep a Wii hooked up largely as a ready-to-go GC with component cables. I enjoyed my time with it, but it was also the period I lost faith in Nintendo and became disinterested in new games. I didn't switch to Sony or Xbox, I just played on PC more. As a guy who has always wanted to like Nintendo as much as I could, GC gen is where they really started pissing me off. What does that say?

You could argue the N64 was a bigger failure because it marked their fall from dominance -if it had used CDs they wouldn't have lost Square and FF7 would be a Nintendo game. History would likely be different. This is even more true as Nintendo created their own enemy by teaming up with Sony to develop the Playstation add-on only to screw them over. Now that's a blunder.

However I see GC as a bigger failure because N64 laid a crystal clear roadmap of where they messed up, and they still refused to see it. To me, that's an even more epic fail! Sure, they were overconfident with N64, but that was their chance to learn their lessons. They didn't, and GC is the result, repeating mistakes.

It's apparent that instead of facing the true issues with their platforms, they felt the issue was outside Nintendo and that they could no longer compete directly. This is false; Nintendo has the most coveted GOLD in the business with their IP, they could just just choose to stop fucking up at any moment and tear Sony a new one. They just didn't want to accept the problem was THEM.

But after the success of Wii, Nintendo got complacent and lazy. The WiiU is a Frankenstein console. They thought it would just ride on the success with the Wii name, and it's like they almost didn't try. They just figured, maybe we can slap on a second screen, it worked for DS! I think it's one of the worst conceptualized, branded and marketed consoles the big players have ever released, and marked a SEVERE decline in sales, far worse than SNES to 64 even. Both GC and WiiU have the distinction of compelling Nintendo to drastically change their direction. The WiiU, in fact, caused an arguably more severe change because it compelled them to combine their console and handheld business.

I personally loved the WiiU because it gave me quality HD Nintendo games, and it has a lot of utility. It's still a terrible product.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

1. You can't say I make things up if you do no effort to even attempt to look things up. Game lists and release dates are pretty easy to find. i also find it amazing you are choosing to die on the rpg hill. Yeah the N64 didn't have rpgs compared to the competition. A genre that wasn't popular, in the US for example, Outside 3 games. Because this very form has the top software sales for both the PSX and N64. You don't seem to really know how things work. Rpgs outside of japan were not going to be game changers and the fact you placed that in a post also talking about western dev support is confusing.

2. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ms-wii-third-party-sales-not-pretty



https://www.cnet.com/news/sony-developers-are-moving-from-wii-to-ps3/



http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2008/01/third_party_games_dont_sell



sure sure sure.

3. Yep, that's why the 3DO with it's near 400 software titles and the Wii u which had more games than the N64 was so suc- oh wait you are a complete fool.

4. Except that this is about the GameCube losing more western support than the N64. try keeping up.

5. It is relevant since you are claiming that the Wii has high western third party support when it doesn't.

6. You aren't even trying to look are you? You're the only person making this argument, heck even the links and quotes I posted above refuting your other point shows your wrong.

7. FF7? You seem to be lost. You're claim was about Wii western third-party support. The gap between the Wii and 360/PS3 in western third-party support in its first year is much wider than the GCs, so you're claim that the Wii did better is factually false.

8. Yes N64 did have fewer games, has nothing to do with western third-party support though.

9. Yes, a confirmed statement from the president using words he actually said is a fact. I know that may be hard for you to take in, you might want to sit down.

10. It isn't important. You have not addressed multiple points in the OP and only have made it about "amount of games" and have even made false claims stated I said "X is the SOLE REASON" when I have more than one reason in the OP You are dishonest.

11. Which you don't have. Mr. "Third-parties had to release on the Wii because it sold so well and the games themselves sold" which you pulled out your ass as proven above in the links.

12. As the only person going crazy and being overly emotional, while also paraphrasing, making up statements, and ignoring the OP putting words in my mouth it's clear you aren't intelligent enough to handle this discussion. Nobody is even defending your arguments and have done so mine which is interesting because You keep saying you know what you're talking about but the only back up you have are people also here talking about personal feelings and their favorite games.

Next time try following the thread. Cheers liar.

When you resort to calling me a fool and liar for investing my time into answering your questions, that doesn't make me -- or anyone -- want to engage with you.

Since you cannot be bothered to maintain any internal consistency -- switching from sales to number of Western developers back to sales back to number of games -- I have nothing to refute. Your own house of cards is lying on the floor.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

switching from sales to number of Western developers back to sales back to number of games -- I have nothing to refute. Your own house of cards is lying on the floor.

Which is exactly what you did. I called you ot for what you are a liar. You intentionally tried to move the goal posts around so much so the conversation would be confusing to those looking from the outside because I know you would make a post like this. Now that the links are there showing you pulled shit out your ass you're gone. Play your kindergarden games at gamespot.

Have a nice day.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

It's apparent that instead of facing the true issues with their platforms, they felt the issue was outside Nintendo and that they could no longer compete directly. This is false; Nintendo has the most coveted GOLD in the business with their IP, they could just just choose to stop fucking up at any moment and tear Sony a new one. They just didn't want to accept the problem was THEM.

But after the success of Wii, Nintendo got complacent and lazy. The WiiU is a Frankenstein console. They thought it would just ride on the success with the Wii name, and it's like they almost didn't try. They just figured, maybe we can slap on a second screen, it worked for DS! I think it's one of the worst conceptualized, branded and marketed consoles the big players have ever released, and marked a SEVERE decline in sales, far worse than SNES to 64 even. Both GC and WiiU have the distinction of compelling Nintendo to drastically change their direction. The WiiU, in fact, caused an arguably more severe change because it compelled them to combine their console and handheld business.

I personally loved the WiiU because it gave me quality HD Nintendo games, and it has a lot of utility. It's still a terrible product.

This is a very good take on it. Especially on taking on Sony (and Xbox) they could do so easily if they wanted to and it's a shame we won't likely see another direct competitor from them again or at lest anytime soon.

 

[Lionel Richie]

OP you do realize that you wrote a long post on why a 17 year old console that people remember fondly sucks and continue to defend that position passionately, right? In a gaming enthusiast board no less. Not saying we should be stupid positive about everything, but your stance is kind of borked from the get go.

So I'll offer my brief counterpoint to what you said like so many have before me: the Gamecube was the tits. That entire generation was incredible. PS2, OG Xbox, GC and Dreamcast are all worth having for different reasons. That's some legendary stuff.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

OP you do realize that you wrote a long post on why a 17 year old console that people remember fondly sucks.

No because that's not what I wrote read the OP.

 

[BlackTron]

This is a very good take on it. Especially on taking on Sony (and Xbox) they could do so easily if they wanted to and it's a shame we won't likely see another direct competitor from them again or at lest anytime soon.

Agree. When the GC failed, Nintendo didn't say "where did we go wrong, how can we do better?" Instead, they said "this is unfair and impossible, we've already done all we can, we have no choice but to chase a different market".

When Wii released, I was happy with their success but it was apparent what they were doing. The problem with chasing a casual/mainstream audience is that they're here today, gone tomorrow. They made a profit on the system and "tricked" everyone, their grandma and dog on hype for motion controls. This is why the software attach rate for Wii was pretty bad. For an unusual number of consoles sold I bet the packed in Wii Sports was enough, and they never bought anything else.

Even worse, after grabbing untapped markets with the wii remote due to its simplicity and ease of use, they follow up with a console that has an even more complicated control scheme than the competition, and keep Wii in the name.

I'm sorry but are they effing stupid?

 

[Mod of War: Remastered]

Try to keep it civil attacking the arguments without petty personal insults over a 17 year old console war, thank you.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Hmm, even the Mod didn't read the OP. Console war? Against who? Anyway moving on.

Agree. When the GC failed, Nintendo didn't say "where did we go wrong, how can we do better?" Instead, they said "this is unfair and impossible, we've already done all we can, we have no choice but to chase a different market".

When Wii released, I was happy with their success but it was apparent what they were doing. The problem with chasing a casual/mainstream audience is that they're here today, gone tomorrow. They made a profit on the system and "tricked" everyone, their grandma and dog on hype for motion controls. This is why the software attach rate for Wii was pretty bad. For an unusual number of consoles sold I bet the packed in Wii Sports was enough, and they never bought anything else.

Even worse, after grabbing untapped markets with the wii remote due to its simplicity and ease of use, they follow up with a console that has an even more complicated control scheme than the competition, and keep Wii in the name.

I'm sorry but are they effing stupid?

Well the Wii U pad was chasing the trends. As of 2010 Tablets became popular and started eating at the laptop market and had cheap games. Nintendo thought using the image would grab the casuals back since they were not able to keep them the last couple years of the Wii as they either left for tablets and phones or for awhile, the Kinect.

Issue is they released the HD Wii U but basically still didn't fix any problems. It seems the corporate command center at Nintendo just haven't been able to get over no longer having NES sales ratios anymore. I'm sure they blamed everyone but themselves for the SNES drop as well.

What's interesting about the Wii and GameCube is once Nintendo did get the audience they didn't listen to the complaints and lost the audience in the latter part of the systems life. The Wii is the most obvious example of this as 2010 onward the Wii didn't gradual sell less it collapsed. They didn't do ANYTHING to keep them. But asked what happened.

Heck, the Switch combined their portable and console portfolios and there are STILL droughts, and still third-party skepticism. It seems like it just won't get to them. We've got Iwata and other Nintendo execs statements, even from Reggie, all basically spinning everything away from themselves. I don't think they'll ever get it outside a company restructuring and those don't usually happen in Japan unless the company gets hit extremely hard.

What baffles me about the Wii U and GameCube, especially the GameCube, is that they had a competitive device. In the GameCubes case they partnered with a company that gave the GC vastly more power than the DC/PS2 at a cheap price. Delayed because they wanted to not use third-parties to fill in launch gaps. They had a competitive system to fight the PS2, sure some games due to contracts before the PS2 launched they wouldn't get but they could have gotten at least what the Xbox did, with what was then a bigger brand name on the market.

It's quite fascinating. As Sunshine is the only Mario game I even like.

 

[Lastyou1]

Irony is that the GameCube was the only Nintendo console in which I was interested in, with games like eternal darkness, mgs the twin snakes, REmake, RE4, etc and do not forget the real third party support.

 

[Mod of War: Remastered]

Hmm, even the Mod didn't read the OP. Console war? Against who? Anyway moving on.

There is a quote feature for a reason. If you would like to take this to a PM to discuss fruther, please do.

To answer your question out in the open however since it seems you want to have the last word, against each other by slinging personal insults, as I specifically stated in my post.

 

[shark sandwich]

LOL this thread has it all:
- “it’s not a failure because it has a handful of games I like”

- “it’s not the worst console because I define Virtual Boy to be a console”

- “b b b but Nintendo still had BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THE BANK”

It’s starting to look like the GameFAQs Wii U system board circa 2013

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

There is a quote feature for a reason. If you would like to take this to a PM to discuss fruther, please do.

To answer your question out in the open however since it seems you want to have the last word, against each other by slinging personal insults, as I specifically stated in my post.

You said there was a console war, in order for there to be a console war there would have to be two console ment- nevermind, thank you for your explanation and warning. We will tone things down.

 

[trufflepigg]

I was expecting some kind of links to data or even an official statement from Nintendo, but instead you got a bunch of opinions in like 2,000 words. So here is my opinion, Gamecube was pretty awesome although certainly the least desirable and stand out from the competition it had at that time. If you ask me, Switch is the worst console by Nintendo and I have hardly used the damn thing...but I wold be factually wrong from a business stand point.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

official statement from Nintendo,

Are you saying Nintendo didn't state they were halting production in 2003? Are you saying Nintendo didn't state the price drop to $99? Nintendo didn't give a reason for a 1 year delay?

LOL this thread has it all:
- “it’s not a failure because it has a handful of games I like”

- “it’s not the worst console because I define Virtual Boy to be a console”

- “b b b but Nintendo still had BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THE BANK”

It’s starting to look like the GameFAQs Wii U system board circa 2013

I mean, the whole point was the damage and impact it had on Nintendo and it's place in the Industry as a whole. I have a GameCube, I liked it's games, but that's not what this is about.

If I made a thread about the original Xbox being a huge commercial failure no one would have used "liking games' to defend it. The fact that's being used here just seems really weird to me.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

I hear you, but at the same time, the GCN sold 22 million units versus the Wii U's 14 million, and the Wii U had the benefit of a decade worth of video game market expansion.

A market expansion that they very deliberately turned their backs on and rejected. Nobody who played with a Wii Remote was going to touch a gigantic 20-button controller with a substandard touch screen. But Nintendo's focus at the time was to regain the "hardcore" gamers who were in the Sony and Microsoft camps. It was a terrible idea and was glaringly obvious since the very beginning.

ProTip: Consumers aren't going to buy something just because the word "Wii" is somewhere on the box, especially when the contents of that box are the exact opposite of the Wii. They're not dummies, and "core" gamers really need to lose the condescending attitude where the dreaded "casuals" are concerned.

I would certainly agree that Wii U is Nintendo's weakest console and second only to Virtual Boy overall. GameCube was never a favorite of mine but I've always respected it and appreciate the fan community. As a Saturn and Dreamcast fan, I can certainly relate.

 

[Lionel Richie]

No because that's not what I wrote read the OP.

You can't expect to win this discussion with semantics. I've read your OP. You make some points that a) are not new and therefore have been either debunked or accepted and b) yeah, maybe caused the Gamecube to sell poorly, but your point is still moot because the Wii U sold even less. What is your point anyway? That the Gamecube was the console that hurt Nintendo market share? Well it didn't because it was followed up by the best selling console of its generation. That it's a failure like software-wise? It isn't. That it sold poorly? Yeah it did, but Nintendo was still pretty healthy when it comes to money. They made more money out of that gen than Sony did.

 

[DoubleJTripleDistilled]

I can see how the Gamecube can be seen as a bit dissapointing, the lack of mature single player content or cinematic single player content that started on the N64 continued with the GC. But the pure gameplay games like FZero GX, SSBM, and stuff like Monkey Ball was amazing, more so if you had local friends to play with.

Can't say it's the most dissapointing, and if you have friends that like multiplayer games, GC was very worthwhile

 

[shark sandwich]

A market expansion that they very deliberately turned their backs on and rejected. Nobody who played with a Wii Remote was going to touch a gigantic 20-button controller with a substandard touch screen. But Nintendo's focus at the time was to regain the "hardcore" gamers who were in the Sony and Microsoft camps. It was a terrible idea and was glaringly obvious since the very beginning.

ProTip: Consumers aren't going to buy something just because the word "Wii" is somewhere on the box, especially when the contents of that box are the exact opposite of the Wii. They're not dummies, and "core" gamers really need to lose the condescending attitude where the dreaded "casuals" are concerned.

I would certainly agree that Wii U is Nintendo's weakest console and second only to Virtual Boy overall. GameCube was never a favorite of mine but I've always respected it and appreciate the fan community. As a Saturn and Dreamcast fan, I can certainly relate.

I don’t think they turned their back on the Wii audience. More like they tried to make something for everybody. It’s like upper management couldn’t say “no” to anything.

- some wanted Wii HD
- some wanted the DS concept
- some wanted a regular ass HD console

So we got a confusing, overpriced compromise of all of those.

It’s like the Homer Simpson car of the console world.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

but your point is still moot because the Wii U sold even less.

Which is the result of you ignoring all the point in the Op which bring up many reasons. You also wouldn't be confused on the point.

 

[LucidFeuer]

Am I the only starting to think Freedom Gate Co. is a paid PR account aiming at rewriting gaming history for branding's and agenda's sake?

All his thread are oriented around these topics...

 

[RAIDEN1]

I wouldn't say the Cube was a complete failure, its design from an aesthetic point of view didn't help, it looked like a lunch box, with the handle at the back..but it was the last Nintendo console where you had STRONG entries when it came to the likes of F-Zero, Star Fox, Wave Race, a Metal Gear Solid game built from the ground up for the machine, the first and last time you would get a a major Metal Gear game on a Nintendo HOME console...(not including the portable version here...) as an owner of one, it was good to see a console from Nintendo going toe to toe with the competition from a hardware power perspective... and all this talk of the Switch-Pro, is just hot air, when all Nintendo may just likely do with that is upgrade the screen-tech they are using currently for when the console is un-docked, I very much doubt they are going to give that mini-console more grunt under the hood so to speak...

 

[Lionel Richie]

Which is the result of you ignoring all the point in the Op which bring up many reasons. You also wouldn't be confused on the point.

Your point about it being their "biggest home console failure" is factually incorrect and nothing you brought up backs that claim. And not because you didn't try or said anything stupid, nothing like that. Sometimes we just back the wrong horse. However, you showed an inability to accept the possibility that you're wrong and instead opted to antagonize people in your thread. That's not how champions do it.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

factually incorrect and nothing you brought up backs that claim

Except for all those articles and official statements from employees about the company being shook up by it. Also Eidos leading a mass exodus of western third party games. Also the fact that Nintendo halted the console because it was selling and stopped production. Also the fact Nintendo has to drop the price to sell it. And the...

try reading the thread next time.

 

[Corderlain]

Man I'd kill to get my old gamecube back with Custom Robo and all the old games.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Except for all those articles and official statements from employees about the company being shook up by it. Also Eidos leading a mass exodus of western third party games. Also the fact that Nintendo halted the console because it was selling and stopped production. Also the fact Nintendo has to drop the price to sell it. And the...

try reading the thread next time.

I've read the thread. It's still not their biggest home console failure, not to a company that released the Wii U and (yes) the Virtual Boy. Nintendo was still profitable during the Gamecube era, they weren't in the Wii U era. No amount of snarky retorts is going to change that.

 

[Hudo]

Well, if it really was a failure, then it was a cool failure. Had plenty of fun playing Skies of Arcadia: Legends, Ikaruga, Super Mario Sunshine et al.
I wish my failures would look like that, lol.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

I've read the thread. It's still not their biggest home console failure, not to a company that released the Wii U and (yes) the Virtual Boy. t.

Which again shows you didn't read the OP. It was more than just sales that made it the worst console FOR NINTENDO. The levels of company turmoil had no comparison with the Virtual Boy, which is not a home console, or the Wii U.

You just see the title, think sales and ignore the OP, it's fine, but that's not how threads work. I'm not the only one pointing people doing this either.

I mean you can think what you want without reading the OP it's cool. You just seem to be going in circles now, moving on.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Honestly, the Gamecube had an incredible library. The system itself was very solid, with good graphics and great controller.

On the top of my head, I remember:

Pikmin 2
Metroid Prime
The Wind Waker
Resident Evil 4
Baten Kaitos
Paper Mario: the 1000 Year Door
F-Zero GX
Eternal Darkness

On the negative side? The machine design was way too childish. They should have tried to make it a tiny bit more sober.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Which again shows you didn't read the OP. It was more than just sales that made it the worst console FOR NINTENDO. The levels of company turmoil had no comparison with the Virtual Boy, which is not a home console, or the Wii U.

You just see the title, think sales and ignore the OP, it's fine, but that's not how threads work. I'm not the only one pointing people doing this either.

I mean you can think what you want without reading the OP it's cool. You just seem to be going in circles now, moving on.

I've fucking read the OP dude. I still feel like the Wii U was a bigger failure especially considering the context in which they were released. The Gamecube doing poorly was almost understandable given how phenomenal the PS2 was, while the Wii U was being outsold by old ass walking dead hardware. Nintendo was still making money in the Gamecube era, which I've pointed out many times and you keep ignoring for whatever reason, while the Wii U led to some legit crisis that wasn't worse only because they were saved partially by Amiibo.

 

[TLZ]

Well, just a fun post here:

The GameCube is the most successful because the Wii is a GameCube in disguise

 

[Mr Hyde]

It´s easy to forget how bad Gamecube sold when it had such an amazing library of games. Resident Evil surged to incredible heights thanks to it, with RE 4 and REmake taking the franchise to a whole new level. Metroid Prime, which everyone and their mother doubted, came out swinging and kicked out the teeths on the competition, raking in them GOTY-awards for breakfast and taking seconds. Wind Waker, who redefined the stale formula of Zelda with a breathtaking new adventure on the sea, only to be followed by an equally fantastic sequel in Twilight Princess. Paper Mario and the Thousand year door. Baten Kaitos. Skies of Arcadia Legends. F-Zero GX. Starfox Adventures.

I loved the minimalistic design of it, it was sleek and took up almost zero space, a design Nintendo has stayed true since, as opposed to the bulky brute that was PS2. The controller was comfortable and functional, and I dare say it´s the best of the best when it comes to the "strange" controller design Nintendo experimented with in those days. Classic Pro Controller still reigns superior though. And who can not love the color purple? In order to compete with the other behemoths on the market Nintendo slashed the price of the cube like it was the main star of Metal Gear Revengeance. But it had little to no effect, which was sad. The Gamecube is another one of those great but underachieving consoles, like Sega Saturn or Dreamcast.

Gamecube was a failure, but it was a fucking magnificent failure.

 

[Chastten]

The first year of the GameCube (for us in Europe, since we got it 6 months after Japan and the States) gave us Luigi's Mansion, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Pikmin, Resident Evil, Super Mario Sunshine, Metroid Prime, The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker and a few other great games. That's one hell of a line-up even if it lacked the kind of games people at the time wanted. But it sure as hell wasn't worse then what the PS2 offered in it's first year.

And yeah, opinions. While it sold gangbusters, to me the Wii is by far Nintendo's worst console to date, and the only I've never owned. Even the best games like Mario Galaxy suffer from the fact that they had to be playable with the wagglemote. So many games that could've been great if it werent for that crappy thing.

 

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Which again shows you didn't read the OP. It was more than just sales that made it the worst console FOR NINTENDO. The levels of company turmoil had no comparison with the Virtual Boy, which is not a home console, or the Wii U.

You just see the title, think sales and ignore the OP, it's fine, but that's not how threads work. I'm not the only one pointing people doing this either.

I mean you can think what you want without reading the OP it's cool. You just seem to be going in circles now, moving on.

Or you're wrong, been shown to be wrong and are the type of person that can't admit it.

I am curious about your basis for "huge turmoil" though. The Virtua Boy got Gunpei excommunicated. That seems like a bigger deal than anything from the Gamecube/ps2/xbox era. There was a transition period from Yamauchi to Iwata during the time. I am guessing your conflating the transition period with Gamecube panic, while ignoring the GBA success.

 

[Deleted member 738976]

Hmm, even the Mod didn't read the OP. Console war? Against who? Anyway moving on.

Amazing that these anti-Nintendo thread makers can even say shit against mods and get away with it. No respect to anyone but the people who agree with them.

 

[shark sandwich]

Or you're wrong, been shown to be wrong and are the type of person that can't admit it.

I am curious about your basis for "huge turmoil" though. The Virtua Boy got Gunpei excommunicated. That seems like a bigger deal than anything from the Gamecube/ps2/xbox era. There was a transition period from Yamauchi to Iwata during the time. I am guessing your conflating the transition period with Gamecube panic, while ignoring the GBA success.

Virtual Boy was never positioned as successor to SNES or Gameboy. It was a failed experiment, but it’s not as if Nintendo were betting the future of one of their existing pillars on Virtual Boy.

And I’d say it did little, if any, long term damage to gamers’ perception of Nintendo or to their relationship with third-party studios.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Virtual Boy was never positioned as successor to SNES or Gameboy. It was a failed experiment, but it’s not as if Nintendo were betting the future of one of their existing pillars on Virtual Boy.

And I’d say it did little, if any, long term damage to gamers’ perception of Nintendo or to their relationship with third-party studios.

Which wasn't fucked in the Gamecube era, you could argue that it started going downhill even in the NES era and it got worse with each console. They had to endure Nintendo early on, but not anymore when Sony beat them once they got into the market. It's not like third-party studios leaving Nintendo wasn't a thing until GC.

 

[120v]

i feel like with gamecube nintendo actually "knew their place". got the sense they knew it didn't have a chance against ps2 so it was kind of its own thing.

but ultimately it was too little and "hey, we've got this purple little nintendo box you can play with, too" wasn't enough for them to ride on. by industry metrics was a failure but it was never aiming at world domination either. wii u is a much better case in study of failure

 

[KingHenrik30]

Which is crazy to me b/c I liked it more than Wii and everything else other than the SNES.