To those wondering why he did this at manufacturing.. first, it plays to his base.. however, also in Kenosha is one of Amazon's newest distribution centers, one that actually houses and performs a shitload of programming and logistics development. So two main messages here.. to blue color Americans a meaningless "America first!!" But to tech (like Amazon just down the road from this) that the days of hiring low skilled IT for a fraction of the cost are coming to an end.
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The Hill: Trump to overhaul visa program for high-skilled workers (H1-B visas)
- Thread starter Tripon
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Hiring on the low end is straight up abuse. Hiring on the high end we can still probably make better use of what we have. The excuses aren't good enough.
If they're not going to hire Americans anyway, what difference does it make?
The problems with H1B aren't about bringing in foreign workers it's that it is being used to depress the wages of certain tech segments. People going on about how hard it is to fill skilled positions with american workers are missing the point that was what the program was meant for to begin with. The problem is that it is being used to fill entry level positions and that has a cascading effect. I wanted to do IT work but the wages in even basic Help Desk or QA wouldn't be enough to pay my student loans and rent and anything with higher wages wanted experience that I would have gotten from an entry level position. American workers aren't able to get entry level jobs to help build their abilities because many of the positions are being outsourced or the pay is to low to be affordable.
The US employer of H1B holders pay US taxes and spends money in the local economy, H1B holders pay US taxes as well and spend their money in the local economy as well.
And then the employers abuse all the privileges thereof which causes wage stagnation which means nobody who works there can afford to spend money in the local economy anyway.
TheRagnCajun
Member
If you create a system that can be gamed, it will be gamed. Its a good system but its not secret that some companies are using this program to cut costs and hire workers for less than the going rate. They need to find a way to take the financial incentive out of the equation.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
Oh there's not even a fucking doubt.
Zoe
Member
Well the bill from a couple of months ago came from a Silicon Valley democrat, so...
This is amazing and I am happy for it. I had to send out a ton of resumes to get my first software job, and I had to work for free for a few months before I was actually offered a pay check. These companies don't want to train employees, so this executive order is welcome. When I was trying to get my foot in the door, I got so sick of the requirement of five years experience for entry level jobs. Hopefully, this forces employers to actually train new employees.
The truth is if company cant get people to fill in the job due to visa issue, they will get the job to places where visa is not an issue.
Google,facebook,amazon and others have created campuses in Asia and been hiring aggresively the past year (probably as preparation for changes to h1b1)
And these are jobs that can be done anywhere on the planet so there aren't any downside for these companies
Google,facebook,amazon and others have created campuses in Asia and been hiring aggresively the past year (probably as preparation for changes to h1b1)
And these are jobs that can be done anywhere on the planet so there aren't any downside for these companies
Then why are the tech companies complaining about it? If there is no downside, it's no skin off their nose.
Maybe for those low level jobs, but for those higher paying development type jobs, you really need to be on site or nearby. There is just too much communication that needs to happen face to face with product owners, business analysts etc.
You mean how it worked until the eighties when salaries went reasonably up with the increased productivity? Let's not act like this is a well known downside to the globalization, wages stagnation due to massively increased demand for labour is a real thing.
Fuck corporations to hell and back.
Yes but not every company can realistically open a campus around the globe but these temp agencies are used by companies of every size. Making it hard for a mid size company to outsource their entire IT department will probably result in either job growth or wage growth. Google doesn't really hire for entry level positions to begin with they usually recruit their staff from interns or exceptional applicants.
Higher level development jobs are not the ones being abused they are the ones having trouble winning the lottery. Personally I am all for high skill labor getting preference over entry level workers.
Most people will ignore the downsides that come with globalization because of the large benefits it brings. I would say profit driven public companies are behind most of the policies hurting all workforces. Honestly if they just tied the H1B to a specific applicant and their skills and not to a company and position it would help some of the abuses. Them basically handcuffing good educated people to low wage position because they are afraid of getting their visa revoked is the major problem.
Duxxy3
Member
Bullshit.
I worked for a large insurance company that had floors of H1-B workers making up entire departments. And they weren't crappy low paying jobs either.
The company found a loophole and abused the hell out of it. I'm sure it saves them millions, but it greatly reduced the amount of available tech jobs in that city.
This is something that should happen much more. Reducing mobility of the global worker market means that big enterprises are forced to invest in emergent markets for the long term profits. In due time, those markets will eventually rise the standards of living so much that big corps will be forced to move again if they really want to maximize profit. Globalization doesn't have to be a race to the bottom for everyone.
Americans don't want to work long, hot days on the cubicle farm.
It has always been true that hiring Indian people in India is cheap as hell, even compared to H1B, but there are a bunch of reasons not to do it.
1) wage inflation is typically double digits, and retention is terrible
2) communication is usually an issue, whether it's because of the time difference, language issues, not ever meeting face to face, or whatever.
3) having worked with off shore staff, they almost all actually just want to work long enough to transfer to the US (or did, before Trump)
4) they typically don't know a lot about American culture. This is a tricky thing to assess until you have seen it. I worked at a major bank that had offshore offices for some back office IT stuff. We had a lot of issues because they didn't really understand credit cards or how Americans used them. So they would often make assumptions that might be logical if you just read about credit cards but made no sense if you'd ever actually had one.
By combining the above, you lose a fair amount of efficiency and there's a fair amount of rework.
shnurgleton
Member
In my experience it's mostly the best of the best engineers getting H1-B visas, and in some cases a near majority of some companies' engineers are on H1-B. Slapping that down would significantly limit the recruiting pool for American tech companies, and since we don't have the STEM talent pool that places like India do, those tech companies are just going to expand in those locations. End result being that no new jobs are created in the United States, at least not without significantly driving students into STEM fields in college, and also making college affordable. Since the aforementioned will never happen in a GOP-led regime, and even if it did we'd have to wait for a new crop of talent to graduate, I think we can reasonably anticipate this having a net negative effect on the USA economy.
Video conf technology is very advance now. Every cisco phone are able to make video call to any cisco phone in the world with almost no latency
Then your experience is quite different from reality.
Link
The top 10 H1B recipients in 2012 were all outsourcing firms.
Im talking about semi 1st world countries like Hong Kong, Japan, Ireland and Singapore. They have a big pool of talent from neighbouring area while having the infrastructure comparable or sometime better than US
The only downside is the timezone but when you pay people 6 figure salary, they will join meetings at 12am
They can still sponsor for Green Cards. Companies don't like to do that though because it's more expensive and doesn't have the indentured servitude to go along with it
Hari Seldon
Member
Good, it definitely needs an over haul. It absolutely should not be for low skill IT work.
This isn't about high skilled labor if you go by what he said they want to make it more suited for those positions and stop companies from bringing in entry level positions. Just because Trump is saying it doesn't mean it's not needed. Hell the current bill is being backed by a silicon valley democrat. She has been trying to get reforms for years.
witchedwiz
Member
Yes and no..
It's typically indian pulling this..
Most eu It tech won't come to the us for a lousy pay
Neograd or early experience should be excluded from h1b visas, but high experience position... meh i don't see restructuring working permit as the way to go
kingwingin
Member
Much needed overhaul! 👍
Zoe
Member
Yes, the biggest thing about the bill previously being discussed was that it raised the salary floor to something much more reasonable, from 60k to 130k.
Ethical Hedonism
Banned
But I thought the right wanted the government to interfere less on the economy.
Duxxy3
Member
This seems to be a Trump thing.
bggrthnjsus
Member
this is really going to screw with a lot of hospitals and medical residencies
YuriLowell
Member
Not letting the employer be the visa holder would fix way more issues.
Tallshortman
Member
The abuse is with outsourcing firms hiring straight from overseas and not companies hiring foreign students. I don't trust Trump to implement anything well but there are quite a lot of people who realize there are issues with the program as it's currently used by some but certainly not all.
Why do so many people not even bother reading any of the thread. This isn't about the employees coming over. This is about the outsourcing firms using not using H1B as it was intended. I have never once said we need to blame the employees or stop people from coming for work. Realistically if they redo nothing else except change it to where the Visa is in a specific employees name and could be moved to a new company that would improve the situation drastically. Just because we want a program reformed doesn't mean we are xenophobic racists.
Can you show me data to prove that the amount spent in the local economy by H1-B employees (and the taxes associated with H1-B employers/employees) are the same (or even near the same) as a completely foreign outsourced arrangement? I am generally curious to how you can believe such a situation to occur.
If that's your takeaway from the discussion you need better reading comprehension.
http://www.mybudget360.com/h1b-visas-low-tech-wage-workers-visas-silicon-valley/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/the-bogus-high-tech-worker-sho/
The amount spent for taxes at the local and federal level compared to the damage done is easy to see.
I am sure they bring in revenue but H1B's being used by the large outsourcing firms are depressing wages for entry level work in the IT industry which is also leading to a drain of experience for long term US labor. Because they are only temp visas we have contractors getting entry level experience and then leaving after for another new employee. The program was originally meant to short term highly skilled labor.
Having a degree alone does not make you qualified for a job.
I meet plenty of people with degrees who are completely unqualified, and lots without degrees who clearly are.
Ok? Thanks for sharing.
The point is that maybe many of those STEM graduates who don't have jobs aren't qualified to get any, despite the massive structural advantages they have as domestic workers (no language barrier, alumni network, easiest to hire them)
You said that it is the same amount of damage as outsourcing to a completely foreign outfit. Show your work.
This isn't the discussion that I am having. slit says he would rather firms outsource to a foreign contractor that is completely offshore instead of an onshore contractor in the US with H1B employees.
Even if that were true and I don't know that it is. It still doesn't let organizations that abuse those same foreign qualified workers off the hook.
No, I said it doesn't matter if they outsource to a foreign country because of wage stagnation, in fact I'll change that statement and say it's better if they do take those jobs overseas because of the damage done here anyway. Now show me the data that shows how the HB-1 visa program offsets the abuses.
Zoe
Member
Well good thing most companies don't have to bother proving that domestic workers can't cut it because the current barrier is so low, right?
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