Support NeoGAF

[wutwutwut]

Even if that were true and I don't know that it is. It still doesn't let organizations that abuse those same foreign qualified workers off the hook.

A market-based solution would be to increase job mobility.

H-1B premium processing was recently suspended. This means that workers on the visa can't switch jobs for a few months without incurring significant risks. That cannot possibly help make this better.

 

[Wereroku]

The point is that maybe many of those STEM graduates who don't have jobs aren't qualified to get any, despite the massive structural advantages they have as domestic workers (language barrier, alumni network)

But we are talking about entry level jobs most of which should only really require basic knowledge of the field. The discussion around entry level requirement inflation would be a completely different topic. The abuse is around outsourcing firms that are filling starter positions so I doubt many grads would be unqualified for those.

 

[wutwutwut]

Well good thing most companies don't have to bother proving that domestic workers can't cut it because the current barrier is so low, right?

Right now, you don't need to prove you can't hire a US worker if you're paying more than 60k. I would be fine raising this to 120-150k.

 

[wutwutwut]

But we are talking about entry level jobs most of which should only really require basic knowledge of the field. The discussion around entry level requirement inflation would be a completely different topic. The abuse is around outsourcing firms that are filling starter positions so I doubt many grads would be unqualified for those.

I thought the concern was around experienced people training their replacements and being let go.

Even for entry-level jobs, what have the graduates done to distinguish themselves and increase their chances of being hired? By the time I graduated college I had three internships, hundreds of open source contributions and was paying the bills through software dev contract work. I had no trouble getting offers.

Of course it meant that I was putting in tons of hours (fine when I was 20) and had time for parties maybe once a month.

There is also a good argument that the American college system is failing its students by misaligning expectations about what you're supposed to do while in it. The Waterloo system (5 years with multiple co-ops) is strictly superior.

 

[slit]

A market-based solution would be to increase job mobility.

H-1B premium processing was recently suspended. This means that workers on the visa can't switch jobs for a few months without incurring significant risks. That cannot possibly help make this better.

If they raise the wage threshold for proving need, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that.

 

[poppabk]

Why do so many people not even bother reading any of the thread. This isn't about the employees coming over. This is about the outsourcing firms using not using H1B as it was intended. I have never once said we need to blame the employees or stop people from coming for work. Realistically if they redo nothing else except change it to where the Visa is in a specific employees name and could be moved to a new company that would improve the situation drastically. Just because we want a program reformed doesn't mean we are xenophobic racists.

The H1B already allows for employees to change companies. No-one is going to accept an H1B type visa that doesn't require the holder to be employed - so the only improvement would be to make it even easier to transfer between positions. None of this would have much affect on wage stagnation - only reducing the number of employees from poorer countries would do that - and I don't see a lot of posters who would be happy with the current levels of employment from countries like India continuing.

 

[Wereroku]

I thought the concern was around experienced people training their replacements and being let go.

Even for entry-level jobs, what have the graduates done to distinguish themselves and increase their chances of being hired? By the time I graduated college I had three internships, hundreds of open source contributions and was paying the bills through software dev contract work. I had no trouble getting offers.

Of course it meant that I was putting in tons of hours (fine when I was 20) and had time for parties maybe once a month.

There is also a good argument that the American college system is failing its students by misaligning expectations about what you're supposed to do while in it. The Waterloo system (5 years with multiple co-ops) is strictly superior.

That is another argument to have US schools don't really push internships and I went to a rural university so our opportunities were quite limited unless I had the funds to travel to another larger city to go for one. Sadly I didn't have that kind of money and couldn't really afford to quit my job to do unpaid internships.

The H1B already allows for employees to change companies. No-one is going to accept an H1B type visa that doesn't require the holder to be employed - so the only improvement would be to make it even easier to transfer between positions. None of this would have much affect on wage stagnation - only reducing the number of employees from poorer countries would do that - and I don't see a lot of posters who would be happy with the current levels of employment from countries like India continuing.

Nice I didn't realize they had changed that. Couldn't they also just raise the pay floor as well? Theoretically a position you are having a difficult time filling with US residents should be worth a premium price.

 

[wutwutwut]

That is another argument to have US schools don't really push internships and I went to a rural university so our opportunities were quite limited unless I had the funds to travel to another larger city to go for one. Sadly I didn't have that kind of money and couldn't really afford to quit my job to do unpaid internships.

Colleges and companies should both invest more in paid internships, agreed.

Nice I didn't realize they had changed that. Couldn't they also just raise the pay floor as well? Theoretically a position you are having a difficult time filling with US residents should be worth a premium price.

There's already a prevailing wage mechanism. The problem is that there's multiple levels of wages, and it's easy to hire someone at nominally a lower level but actually expect higher level work from them.

 

[KingV]

So it sounds like the executive order didn't actually do anything at all. It's basically just an order to review the program and recommend changes to address fraud and misuse. But it doesn't actually make any changes.

 

[poppabk]

That is another argument to have US schools don't really push internships and I went to a rural university so our opportunities were quite limited unless I had the funds to travel to another larger city to go for one. Sadly I didn't have that kind of money and couldn't really afford to quit my job to do unpaid internships.


Nice I didn't realize they had changed that. Couldn't they also just raise the pay floor as well? Theoretically a position you are having a difficult time filling with US residents should be worth a premium price.

It's not a change, it has existed since at least ~15 years ago when I was on a H1B. Of course you need a new employer to submit a petition for you, but you can move jobs as soon as the petition is filed.

 

[zabuni]

Colleges and companies should both invest more in paid internships, agreed.

As far as comp sci degrees, I don't know if it's changed in the last couple of years, but I've never seen an unpaid internship for a comp sci degree student.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

So what options do I have as a would be web developer for temporary work in the US in the future? There is the J-1 company transfer route but that's it. I got rejected after interview for a training position for a company with US offices, so can't try applying again till next year. If it works out I plan on working there for a couple of years at least before requesting a transfer. I'm not trying to go for a green card or citizenship or anything, you would think youth mobility especially for people without such ambitions would be easier.

 

[Zoe]

I'm not trying to go for a green card or citizenship or anything, you would think youth mobility especially for people without such ambitions would be easier.

Why would companies want to spend time on people who are gonna pack up and leave?

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

As someone who has been working in IT for over 10 years, I will just say H1B visa reform is way overdue. I don't know the details of what the EO does, but I'm hoping it will be for the better and make H1B be the visa that was originally created and designed to be.

 

[GaimeGuy]

So it sounds like the executive order didn't actually do anything at all. It's basically just an order to review the program and recommend changes to address fraud and misuse. But it doesn't actually make any changes.

It's also not going to do anything for the people of the rust belt, like in southeastern wisconsin, that trump was clearly trying to pander to.

They'll eat it up, though.

All it does it make it harder for the most skilled of professionals to get a visa here. If anything we should be expanding the program, not trimming it.

 

[nephilimdj]

Australia just announced cutting of similar visa after mc donalds lobbied to add fast food as a skill.
Systems always need reforms

 

[Zoe]

All it does it make it harder for the most skilled of professionals to get a visa here. If anything we should be expanding the program, not trimming it.

If the proposed bill goes through, the "most skilled" workers already command a salary high enough for employers to not worry about having to justify their hire.

 

[poppabk]

If the proposed bill goes through, the "most skilled" workers already command a salary high enough for employers to not worry about having to justify their hire.

What has salary got to do with it. There are plenty of highly skilled science and social science jobs that don't pay a fraction of IT jobs, but which are still covered by H1B. And the H1B program still only covers about half of graduate students studying in the US on temporary Visas, never mind those not studying in the US.

 

[Zoe]

What has salary got to do with it. There are plenty of highly skilled science and social science jobs that don't pay a fraction of IT jobs, but which are still covered by H1B. And the H1B program still only covers about half of graduate students studying in the US on temporary Visas, never mind those not studying in the US.

Those people can still be hired, there's just more paperwork.

 

[KingV]

It's also not going to do anything for the people of the rust belt, like in southeastern wisconsin, that trump was clearly trying to pander to.

They'll eat it up, though.

All it does it make it harder for the most skilled of professionals to get a visa here. If anything we should be expanding the program, not trimming it.

I think it needs to be changed wholesale. It should be easier for skilled professionals and us-educated foreign students to live and work here, but something also needs to be done about abuse. It's shouldn't be done by waiver, the individual should hold the visa, and they should be pushed into citizenship more quickly. I would also suggest that something needs to be done about pay abuse, like the H1Bs need to be paid 10-15% higher than the median for the industry and career field, irrespective of level to ensure they are truly highly skilled and not entry level.

That said, I expect trump will make zero changes then call it fixed in 9 months.

 

[BronzeWolf]

This does not affect the TN visa right?

At least as long as NAFTA is on, I guess

 

[Just_myles]

Hiring on the low end is straight up abuse. Hiring on the high end we can still probably make better use of what we have. The excuses aren't good enough.

Yeah I buy that. We have the talent home grown. But, I am more forgiving on the extreme high end as you put it.

What has salary got to do with it. There are plenty of highly skilled science and social science jobs that don't pay a fraction of IT jobs, but which are still covered by H1B. And the H1B program still only covers about half of graduate students studying in the US on temporary Visas, never mind those not studying in the US.

in some cases this is true. However, going from the list I posted in the previous pages, those are pretty much jobs that can be done from any cs grad. Some of the jobs on the site(for my area) are also not what I would consider H1b positions. Definitely not specialized. Also to circle back on your point on salary, typically these positions are highly specialized and would command a rather sizable salary or else it wouldn't be worth the pursuit.

 

[poppabk]

Those people can still be hired, there's just more paperwork.

Which is less likely for lower paying but highly specialized positions. Plus one of the proposed changes would be to end the lottery and instead award visas to the highest paying positions instead.