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[Heavy's Sandvich]

I will be picking this up at lunch.

I haven't played either of the two games; really looking forward to playing them considering the affection everyone seems to have for them.

 

[Merovin]

She has arrived, I'm expecting big things Gaf!

 

[Finalow]

is there a guide for sotc's trophies?

* anyone?

 

[DeVeAn]

* anyone?

Ps3trophies.org has a roadmap.

 

[Risk Breaker]

Dammit I'm listening to The Furthest Land and I want this on my PS3

 

[Finalow]

Ps3trophies.org has a roadmap.

oh, i didn't see that. (i checked out ps3trophies.org yesterday)
thanks.

 

[ScOULaris]

So anyone have any clue why JumpingTheGun got banned? I was looking forward to reading his SotC impressions along the way.

 

[Philanthropist]

Playing SotC in 1080p mode. I have no issues with framerate or picture quality at all. I mean, they're completely negligible, it's nothing like activating a PS2-performance mode when you enable it, as some seem to believe. I guess the 3D mode is something else, but I really don't see any problem so to speak in 2D mode.

The framerate is smooth enough to make it seem 60 fps when turning on motion interpolation :-D

 

[StuBurns]

People are talking about the 3D mode when they say PS2 performance.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

People are talking about the 3D mode when they say PS2 performance.

Actually, supposedly, SOTC PS3 actually runs worse than the PS2 version (if that's even possible!) when 3D is turned on!

The DF review mentioned that performance drops quite a bit when 1080p is activated. Also, it doesn't run in full 1080p either, only 980 x 1080 (half 1080p)

Still need to pick up my copy. Will probably do so later on today!

 

[StuBurns]

Actually, supposedly, SOTC PS3 actually runs worse than the PS2 version (if that's even possible!) when 3D is turned on!

The DF review mentioned that performance drops quite a bit when 1080p is activated. Also, it doesn't run in full 1080p either, only 980 x 1080 (half 1080p)

But the point is, he got confused, the 2D 1080p mode is nothing like the PS2 performance, the 3D mode is what people are talking about.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

But the point is, he got confused, the 2D 1080p mode is nothing like the PS2 performance, the 3D mode is what people are talking about.

Yeah true. Still, it surprises the hell out of me that the PS3 struggles with this game! You'd think it would be able to run this game at 1080p/30FPS! (not 1080i @ 20-30FPS)

And the 3D performance is just shockingly bad. Yeah I know that it's the most advanced PS2 game ever made by a mile, but I still expected much better from this HD version.

Thank goodness that 720p is at least a solid 30FPS.

 

[StuBurns]

All these HD ports seem to be shockingly shit really. But they're just ports I guess. It'll be interesting to see how FFX works out if it's really being reworked with the Crystal Tools engine, as that was ground up made for the PS3, I'd hope we'd see 1080p/60fps without flaws given the greatly reduced level of detail in the assets.

If you take something like RE4, which is the same res and framerate as RE5, without AA, it's kind of scary how little effort is being put into this stuff.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

All these HD ports seem to be shockingly shit really. But they're just ports I guess. It'll be interesting to see how FFX works out if it's really being reworked with the Crystal Tools engine, as that was ground up made for the PS3, I'd hope we'd see 1080p/60fps without flaws given the greatly reduced level of detail in the assets.

Well the GOW Volume 2 (Chains of Olympus & Ghost of Sparta) collections were very well done. Full 1080p @ 60FPS, with enhanced polygon models and textures and all FMV cutscenes re-rendered at 1080p and the MGS HD collection seems to be coming along very nicely (seemingly rock solid 60FPS and 1080p native rez. I just hope that Peace Walker gets that bump to 60FPS that it's supposedly getting)

But yeah, overall it's pretty terrible all around. It's going to be funny to see GCN VC games running in a higher resolution when emulated on the Wii U VC than these supposed "HD" re-releases!

If you take something like RE4, which is the same res and framerate as RE5, without AA, it's kind of scary how little effort is being put into this stuff.

It's even more shocking when you consider that it runs better on Wii than it does on both the 360 and PS3! (and has extra shader/TEV effects that are missing on the HD version!)

 

[StuBurns]

But yeah, overall it's pretty terrible all around. It's going to be funny to see GCN VC games running in a higher resolution when emulated on the Wii U VC than these supposed "HD" re-releases!

I remember Reggie saying it wouldn't be doing that. Well, he was talking about Wii games, but I imagine it'd the same.

It's even more shocking when you consider that it runs better on Wii than it does on both the 360 and PS3! (and has extra shader/TEV effects that are missing on the HD version!)

Yeah, exactly, it's unacceptable really. Especially with the obscene profit margin on this projects.

 

[SolidSnakex]

All these HD ports seem to be shockingly shit really.

The only shitty HD ports so far are UBI's games and the recent RE titles. The rest range from good to fantastic.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

I remember Reggie saying it wouldn't be doing that. Well, he was talking about Wii games, but I imagine it's the same.

That's probably because the Wii U will be including the original Wii hardware inside, which will only run games in 480p naturally.

However, we already know that GCN games will be downloadable on the VC and they would have to be emulated on the Wii U if they're going to run (since the Wii in GCN mode can't access the Wii's internal memory or Classic Controller functionality and the Wii U doesn't have the GCN controller or memory card ports that would be needed if the GCN games ran off the original Wii hardware in BC mode)

Plus N64 games on the Wii U get a 4x resolution boost, so the precedent is there for them to be emulated at 1080p.

The only shitty HD ports so far are UBI's games and the recent RE titles. The rest range from good to fantastic.

The GOW collection only runs at 720p and SOTC in this collection only runs at 1080i max (with a variable 20-30FPS). That's not good enough, there's no good reason why they shouldn't be running at 1080p 60FPS.

 

[StuBurns]

The only shitty HD ports so far are UBI's games and the recent RE titles. The rest range from good to fantastic.

I disagree.

That's probably because the Wii U will be including the original Wii hardware inside, which will only run games in 480p naturally.

However, we already know that GCN games will be downloadable on the VC and they would have to be emulated on the Wii U if they're going to run (since the Wii in GCN mode can't access the Wii's internal memory or Classic Controller functionality)

Plus N64 games on the Wii U get a 4x resolution boost, so the precedent is there for them to be emulated at 1080p.

HLE of N64 hardware is piss easy though, HLE of GC games isn't as easy. It takes computers considerably more powerful than the WiiU appears to be.

EDIT: And 4x N64 seems odd to me, the N64 could run in 480i, 4 times 480i would be 1920i, which is basically 4K, and I don't think the WiiU can output 4K can it?

 

[Limanima]

I think people are worring too much with the frame rate.
720p with locked 30fps it's just fine. Those who dind't had the chance to play SOTC on the PS2 consider yourself afortunate to be able to enjoy this on the ps3 with such quailty.
SOTC is not know for it's frame rate, it is known for it's fantastic gameplay (that may seem lacking at first, but that is truly amazing) music, presentation and characters. One of my all time favorite games.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

I disagree.

HLE of N64 hardware is piss easy though, HLE of GC games isn't as easy. It takes computers considerably more powerful than the WiiU appears to be.

Well I'm sure that Nintendo can write a much better emulator than the Dolphin guys (After all, the GCN was able to emulate N64 games at 4x res at full speed, whereas PC emulators require a much beefier system) plus they'd be emulating it on a game by game basis.

PC emulator system requirements aren't really comparable to that of a console equivalent. The 360 can emulate the XBOX at full speed with 4x AA (Granted not all games run smoothly, but they never put much effort into the emulator anyway, but the likes of Ninja Gaiden Black run nigh on perfectly)

Should be easy as piss really (and they have no choice, they have to emulate it)

 

[Yoboman]

SotC was one of those game specifically designed to the architecture of PS2, doing all its unique lighting tricks and "fur shading" tricks thats PS2 was never supposed to do through very creative programming. I'd imagine to get it all at 60 FPS 1080p it would require a LOT more work.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

SotC was one of those game specifically designed to the architecture of PS2, doing all its unique lighting tricks and "fur shading" tricks thats PS2 was never supposed to do through very creative programming. I'd imagine to get it all at 60 FPS 1080p it would require a LOT more work.

So adapt it to the PS3's native functions then. There's no need to fake HDR or motion blur when the PS3 does it natively for example.

 

[StuBurns]

Well I'm sure that Nintendo can write a much better emulator than the Dolphin guys (After all, the GCN was able to emulate N64 games at 4x res at full speed, whereas PC emulators require a much beefier system) plus they'd be emulating it on a game by game basis.

See now I know that can't be true. I don't know if the WiiU has 4K output, but I know for a fact the Gamecube doesn't. It's 576i at best I believe. That's not even close to 2x N64.

EDIT: Brainfart, it's not 4K. It's still a lot more than 576i though.

 

[Yoboman]

So adapt it to the PS3's native functions then. There's no need to fake HDR or motion blur when the PS3 does it natively for example.

At that point you're not porting it, you're essentially making a new engine/new assets etc. etc.

I'm also pretty sure these ports are outsourced to an extent, so they are hardly going to get an outsourced company to start taking initiatives like that

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

See now I know that can't be true. I don't know if the WiiU has 4K output, but I know for a fact the Gamecube doesn't.

I think you've misread what I said. N64 VC games (and the Zelda Collection disc games on the GCN) run at 480p (640 x 480)

The N64 ran those games at 240p (320 x 240) That's a 4x resolution bump.

 

[PdotMichael]

If I remeber correctly the Gamecub version of Zelda OoT was not perfect, many sound and music errors and stuff.

 

[StuBurns]

I think you've misread what I said. N64 VC games (and the Zelda Collection disc games on the GCN) run at 480p (640 x 480)

The N64 ran those games at 240p (320 x 240) That's a 4x resolution bump.

How is that a precedent for 1080p on GC games?

 

[panda21]

can't make up my mind whether i should get these or not. i already completed both when they came out.

i wonder how well they hold up to a second playthrough

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

How is that a precedent for 1080p on GC games?

They render all N64 games in a higher resolution. Whenever Nintendo have the chance, they increase the image quality of their older games as much as they can.

Therefore, they will continue with this philosophy with the Wii U VC and render GCN games in high res. Simple.

The hardware should be more than capable of running it in 1080p.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The GOW collection only runs at 720p and SOTC in this collection only runs at 1080i max (with a variable 20-30FPS). That's not good enough, there's no good reason why they shouldn't be running at 1080p 60FPS.

ICO and SoTC run at 30fps because Ueda wanted them to. He said that he didn't care if it was possible for them to run at 60fps. These ports are done in a matter of months and with small budgets. The point is to simply get them running in a HD resolution with a stable framerate. That's all people really care about.

 

[StuBurns]

They render all N64 games in a higher resolution. Whenever Nintendo have the chance, they increase the image quality of their older games as much as they can.

Therefore, they will continue with this philosophy with the Wii U VC and render GCN games in high res. Simple.

The hardware should be more than capable.

I don't believe the hardware is more than capable, but we'll see I guess.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

ICO and SoTC run at 30fps because Ueda wanted them to. He said that he didn't care if it was possible for them to run at 60fps. These ports are done in a matter of months and with small budgets. The point is to simply get them running in a HD resolution with a stable framerate. That's all people really care about.

I was actually referring to the GOW collection (where the original games were 60FPS)

I'm saying that SOTC should be able to run at 1080p with a stable 30FPS.

 

[StuBurns]

I was actually referring to the GOW collection (where the original games were 60FPS)

I'm saying that SOTC should be able to run at 1080p with a stable 30FPS.

GoW1/2 weren't really 60fps on PS2.

But with SotC, you have an excellent point. Even if Ueda said they were only allowed to be 30fps, he certainly didn't demand they be half 1080p with slowdown. It's not as if they had buckets of fillrate in that pipeline to waste clearly.

 

[Ravage]

Game just arrived today, and i managed to put in a good 2 hours before leaving for school. ICO looks absolutely fabulous.

 

[ScOULaris]

The slowdown shown in the Digital Foundry 1080p SotC video is completely negligible. It drops to 26fps for a split second twice, and I doubt anyone here could notice that without seeing the FPS displayed as it happened. The framerate is not an issue in either 720p or 1080p, but I will say that I'm disappointed about the resolution.

Ico looks noticeably cleaner than SotC in this collection because it's being rendered at a higher resolution. SotC still looks fantastic, but true 1080p would have been godlike.

 

[Nocturnowl]

I do love that third colossus just for the grand sense of scale, the swine wouldn't stop shaking though, i'll give him bonus points for his desire to live, makes me sad when delivering that final slow mo stab.
Off to 4 & 5 later, I don't remember being much of a fan of number 4.

 

[StuBurns]

Actually because of frame pulldown shift, falling out of perfect divisions of 60 is quite noticable. If the person actually cares or not is a different issue.

 

[ScOULaris]

Actually because of frame pulldown shift, falling out of perfect divisions of 60 is quite noticable. If the person actually cares or not is a different issue.

For such a fleeting second though? You think you could have noticed the drop to 26fps in that DF video without the numbers onscreen?

 

[StuBurns]

For such a fleeting second though? You think you could have noticed the drop to 26fps in that DF video without the numbers onscreen?

I haven't seen the video, I have no idea. But most people can tell when framerate is slightly above or below 30 or 60 just because of the pulldown. I don't think it matters at all though, I will be playing SotC in 1080p mode personally.

 

[plasmasd]

I've beaten 6 Colossi in 3D mode. You cannot compare it to PS2 performance. 99% of the time its close to a solid 30fps and looks incredible. 1080p 2D mode doesn't look very good, you can tell its much lower resolution compared to ICO.

If I were playing SOTC in 2D, I'd lock the PS3 settings to 720p and let my tv do the scaling.

 

[ScOULaris]

It didn't look any better or worse to be in 720p when I tried it. I'm sticking with 1080p.

 

[StuBurns]

It didn't look any better or worse to be in 720p when I tried it. I'm sticking with 1080p.

Do you have per pixel mapping on? I would have thought (hoped) that it'd be crisper in 1080p.

 

[LemonGremlin]

I've beaten 6 Colossi in 3D mode. You cannot compare it to PS2 performance. 99% of the time its close to a solid 30fps and looks incredible. 1080p 2D mode doesn't look very good, you can tell its much lower resolution compared to ICO.

If I were playing SOTC in 2D, I'd lock the PS3 settings to 720p and let my tv do the scaling.

I'm really happy to hear this. I thought Digital Foundry's analysis was strange because all the previews around E3 this year were glowing, and SOTC 3D was one of the primary reasons I jumped on the 3d projector bandwaggon. I guess I'll see tonight!

 

[BruiserBear]

lol at the people making a big deal about split second framerate drops on a game that isn't even close to beIng a fast action game. No one could notice those drops in a blind test.

 

[ScOULaris]

Do you have per pixel mapping on? I would have thought (hoped) that it'd be crisper in 1080p.

Yeah, I have per pixel on for 1080p. Maybe if I had the two running side-by-side I could see a small difference, but my comparison didn't make an argument for switching to 720p for SotC. It looked the same either way.

And yes, I am pretty discerning with audiovisual stuff. I was checking for differences in aliasing/edge crawling, IQ, and framerate. I saw no noticeable difference in any of those categories. Even in 1080p per pixel mode, the image is still being upscaled by the PS3. The game isn't rendered in true 1080p.

 

[StuBurns]

lol at people thinking discussing something is the same as making a big deal out if it because they can't be arsed to read the conversation.

Yeah, I have per pixel on for 1080p. Maybe if I had the two running side-by-side I could see a small difference, but my comparison didn't make an argument for switching to 720p for SotC. It looked the same either way.

And yes, I am pretty discerning with audiovisual stuff. I was checking for differences in aliasing/edge crawling, IQ, and framerate. I saw no noticeable difference in any of those categories. Even in 1080p per pixel mode, the image is still being upscaled by the PS3. The game isn't rendered in true 1080p.

Well it shouldn't be scaling per se should it? It's exactly half the horizontal resolution, each pixel should be 2:1 allowing for per pixel mapping without scaling shouldn't it?

Regardless, I'm sticking with 1080p, I hate changing that stuff.

 

[ScOULaris]

lol at people thinking discussing something is the same as making a big deal out if it because they can't be arsed to read the conversation.

Well, the Digital Foundry article and videos created a rather alarmist response. They're choice to use the phrase "worse than the PS2 experience" is probably to blame for this, even though we have still heard very few 3D impressions outside of DF to confirm this.

Well it shouldn't be scaling per se should it? It's exactly half the horizontal resolution, each pixel should be 2:1 allowing for per pixel mapping without scaling shouldn't it?

Well, that's where the whole "rectangular pixels" argument comes into play (as mentioned by Digital Foundry). When you scale an image with a 2:1 pixel ratio, you're turning individual square pixels into two square pixels side-by-side (essentially). This is still technically scaling and does have an ever-so-slightly less than ideal impact on the final image.

 

[dark10x]

What?

ICO is natively 4:3 and PCSX2 is NOT able to render a full 16:9 image as a result (unlike Dolphin, which can).

Also, the framerate of the game is 30 fps. If you attempt to render faster than that, the actual game speed is effected. So, at 60 fps, the game would literally move at twice the speed making it too fast to play.

That's not even counting some of the other issues the emulator has with ICO.

 

[StuBurns]

Just fired it up, Ico looks really amazing. Looking forward to trying SotC when my replacement PS3 turns up.

 

[ScOULaris]

Just fired it up, Ico looks really amazing. Looking forward to trying SotC when my replacement PS3 turns up.

WAT? If you have and game and are playing Ico, why do you need a new PS3 to play SotC?