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[kpopSuperstar]

The whole woke/acces media jerked off to this game for months, the game was only divisive among gamers/fans, it had a full buffet of edgy liberal things for them, lesbians galore, two "female" leads, a she-hulk, a lot of strong female character's, a lot of dumb and pussy male characters, the hetero male beloved lead being killed within two seconds, bigot sandwiches, and so on. Than you add ND superior animation and graphical power.

This game was taylor made for awards at that time just like some movies for oscars in the same period. It would have won no matter the competition.

There were plenty of people who called out the fallacies as well.

In some ways, its a credit that people care so much. And it got a lot of things right.

Overall, I like the story, and Abby too. But:

A prophet converts a massive amount of people who build a huge city and uses bow and arrows to fight an armed militia with assault rifles. And the culmination ends with the armed militia rushing their wooden city to fight them in hand to hand combat. Druckman wanted to show both angles of a war and spawned a nonsensical corny fantasy faction to do it. The only way they could even make that "war" possible was having the militia randomly walking into ambushes for no reason.

The whistle faction belongs in The Walking Dead Season 7 and feels out of place in The Last of Us, who generally tried to be more grounded in the first game. Fantastical and unrealistic villians popping up at random to create drama is a TV thing.

Ellie, turning into a depressed psycopath throughout the game, gets on a horse, travels for weeks, lands exactly where Abby is, and after magically healing her psycopathy, lets Abby go and gets a happy ending walking into a field.

After spending days butchering grown men and woman while being a 40-pound teenage girl.

Abby, turning on her own friends at a whim at the end, betraying her character, because they wanted to have a similar arc for Abby as Joel. She grew up with those people, they were her family. She hated the whistle faction, they tried to kill her and killed people she knew.

Man, that turn fucking sucked and made little sense, all because they wanted it to mirror Joel's actions in the first game.

 

[Azure Crystal Gaming]

tldr at bottom.

I'm going to be the better woman for once and say that while I have no love for this game or for Neil Druckmann, I am happy for the people who play and love this game, and I hope that ND continues to deliver for them all because having things that you like and enjoy is better than the alternative.

I wish more people would be like that for things. Stellar Blade and other games like it get too much hate from the other side, which is a shame. Why can't people just live and let live when it comes to things like this? Too many Games Journo hit pieces out there and also the sort of people who will go into fan spaces to spew their stupidity around


tl:dr
I do not like this game, but I like that other people do.


To the fans of ND games that are not retarded asshats, I salute you.

 

[laynelane]

I wonder how many people that really hate the game's story had it spoiled in the infamous leaks.

Considering the audience reaction for the show has been very similar to what happened with the game - I think it's fair to say that the story just doesn't sit well with some people. The leaks had very little relevance overall, imo.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

I wonder how many people that really hate the game's story had it spoiled in the infamous leaks.

The problem wasn't just the leaks. It's the misinformation that spread because of those leaks. People out there still think that Abby is the trans character in the game lol. Meanwhile the trans character mentions something about it in a sentence in the middle of a gameplay segment. It's so light that if you're distracted you don't even realize she said it.

 

[Zacfoldor]

I do really dislike the game but not for gameplay reasons and I'm not a rain on your parade kinda guy so good for everyone who liked it.

I think they had the perfect game with part 1 and part 2 ruined it. I would have been much, much happier without part 2 ever existing and I would be a bigger Sony fan.

 

[Aenima]

Its a shame they ruined the story and the main characters of one of my favorite games of all time (TLOU). Still, the animations and gameplay from TLOUII are worth praising as they are a step above the 1st game. By the time i finished the game i was hating the game so much i could not even do a 2nd run.

 

[touchfuzzy]

I think this was the game that made me realize we'd pushed violence in games a bit too far. I really felt very uncomfortable playing it and would go to bed and have strange dreams so I dropped it and realized this type of software is not for me. I feel bad for the people that had to research and animate some of this, while it's extremely impressive work it's also very disturbing.

Yeah yeah I'm a lame wimp or whatever, don't care.

 

[Kataploom]

IDK, I was told the same thing about TLOU and felt scammed by internet hype, it was the most mundane and normal game ever, even from 7th gen there were games that vastly surpassed it in quality in more than one aspect like Bioshock, Mass Effect (any of them), etc. Even the story felt simple and cliche af.

I haven't played Part 2 but if it's like the first one, it's gonna be just another game of the bunch with some incomprehensible hype most probably.

 

[TheAnt]

Considering the audience reaction for the show has been very similar to what happened with the game - I think it's fair to say that the story just doesn't sit well with some people. The leaks had very little relevance overall, imo.

Possible, but where do you see that? I am assuming a lot of people that didn't like the S2, also didn't like the game. It's also a very different medium.

But regardless, the reaction hasn't been "very similar", at all. Maybe in a sense that people preferred the first one.

But the show hasn't been dragged through shit even remotely close to what the game was. Game was getting dunked on from all sides for months before release. It was also, largely falsely, getting marked as turbo woke, when In reality it could be considered a white cis male's dream game compared to what the show end up being.

 

[Bernardougf]

I do really dislike the game but not for gameplay reasons and I'm not a rain on your parade kinda guy so good for everyone who liked it.

I think they had the perfect game with part 1 and part 2 ruined it. I would have been much, much happier without part 2 ever existing and I would be a bigger Sony fan.

Its amazing how one piece of later media can ruin a great previous one... I loved really loved The Force Awakens, saw 3 times at theaters, bought the steel case bluray and some action figures, and then came The Last Jedi... never watched a new star wars movie or series after (only Andor) including ever rewatching force awakens.

 

[TGO]

Its amazing how one piece of later media can ruin a great previous one... I loved really loved The Force Awakens, saw 3 times at theaters, bought the steel case bluray and some action figures, and then came The Last Jedi... never watched a new star wars movie or series after (only Andor) including ever rewatching force awakens.

I'm the same, but I did watch The Rise of Skywalker to see if J.J could fix that shit, I commend his attempt but as I feared nothing could fix that shit especially in one film.
I still remember coming out the cinema after TLJ, both my sister's boyfriend and I was silent just casually looking at eachother until halfway home in the car and then both of us went on a rant.
I'm not even a mega Star Wars fan but that shit was terrible.

 

[poodaddy]

The pacing is kinda bad, it's overly long, and I found it's messaging to be muddled. The ending falls flat simply because of how many people Ellie killed. The game tries to convey that she finally made peace with not having the chance to forgive Joel, which leads her to sparing Abby, therefore her journey to healing has begun. But that doesn't undo the 100+ people Ellie killed to get to Abby, including killing a pregnant woman. So the idea that Ellie will eventually find peace with all this is laughable. It's clearly too late for her, but Neil backed away from that. The story would've gone a lot harder if it actually committed to it's message about how destructive revenge is, by having Ellie kill Abby, and also kill Lev to tie up any loose ends. She completes her mission, but she loses everything in the process, and she is no longer the girl we knew from the first game. But instead Neil pussied out and gave us the sterile ending that we got. In fact, the original ending was supposed to have Ellie kill Abby. Neil should've gone with his initial instincts on that.

In my opinion stories like Vinland Saga and Clair Obsur have way more to say about revenge/grief than TLOU2 does. TLOU2 is a pretty straightforward revenge story, that does something rather interesting by having you play as the protagonists killer. So it gets credit for presenting a narrative that challenging. But I think when you get down to it's actual messaging, it's not as good as other stories like it.

For example when Vinland Saga wraps up it's revenge arc, it goes to great lengths afterward to actually show you why pacifism goes so hard, which makes for a much more fulfilling and inspiring story.

Holy fuck dude, well fucking said.

 

[GymWolf]

At least the Nintendo fanboys are not so obsessed with awards and ratings of BOTW although they could back it up with user reception. I wish i got 1 dollar for everytime someone brags about TLOU2.

You must invite me in your magical, imaginary world dude.

Are a couple of grams of crack enough to enter or do i also need an lsd enema?

 

[Topher]

At least the Nintendo fanboys are not so obsessed with awards and ratings of BOTW although they could back it up with user reception. I wish i got 1 dollar for everytime someone brags about TLOU2.

And if you had to pay $1 for every time someone hated on TLOU 2, you would be in the red as they are by far the most vocal group, imo.

 

[laynelane]

Possible, but where do you see that? I am assuming a lot of people that didn't like the S2, also didn't like the game. It's also a very different medium.

But regardless, the reaction hasn't been "very similar", at all. Maybe in a sense that people preferred the first one.

But the show hasn't been dragged through shit even remotely close to what the game was. Game was getting dunked on from all sides for months before release. It was also, largely falsely, getting marked as turbo woke, when In reality it could be considered a white cis male's dream game compared to what the show end up being.

Viewership has fallen off as the show delved into the events of the second game. Many people (gamers) also don't like the story of the second game. I think attributing that to dislike of the story is more reasonable than trying to come up with some theory surrounding the leaks/people being unable to form their own opinions.

 

[mrMUR_96]

The gameplay, visuals, animation and enemy ai are genuinely incredible, so well made. However the story genuinely sucks and completely ruins any desire I have to play the game again, the pacing is absolutely awful too and I felt like I was forcing myself to finish it even though the combat was so good.

 

[brenobnfm]

Wonder how you're gonna feel when you play your second game.

 

[PatientGamer]

One of the best games ever made in my honest opinion.

If the Joel/Abby situation + LGBT stuff wasn't included, I genuinely think more people would feel the same way.

 

[TheAnt]

Viewership has fallen off as the show delved into the events of the second game. Many people (gamers) also don't like the story of the second game. I think attributing that to dislike of the story is more reasonable than trying to come up with some theory surrounding the leaks/people being unable to form their own opinions.

I agree with you about people not liking the story nearly as much as the first game. But I was thinking more of how the reactions weren't similar in a sense that that dislike turned to hate with regards to the game, and will just stay as a dislike with regards to the show.

 

[Cakeboxer]

You must invite me in your magical, imaginary world dude.

Are a couple of gram of crack enough to enter or do i also need an lsd enema?

A couple grams of crack and an LSD enema? That's the cover charge for the Twilight Zone. To get into my magical world, you gotta be pure—like a saint crossed with a rebel—and completely free of that pathetic fanboi slime. No kiss-ups allowed, only unapologetic realness survives the gate.

 

[GymWolf]

A couple grams of crack and an LSD enema? That's the cover charge for the Twilight Zone. To get into my magical world, you gotta be pure—like a saint crossed with a rebel—and completely free of that pathetic fanboi slime. No kiss-ups allowed, only unapologetic realness survives the gate.

Sound like fun.

 

[Danny22]

Never understood the story controversy. Like aren't you people tired of the same stories in gaming? Why not embrace something thats trying to do something different? When I sit to consume something, I'm always hoping for something unpredictable, different, something to affect me. And TLOU 2 tried instead of just giving people what they want, that's commendable even if you don't like it.

Always thought the tv audiences would like it a lot more but seems the controversy got to Neil's head. The tv series second season was like a mom trying to explain every single thing carefully, so absolutely terrified of being controversial. I don't think its accurate to say the tv show proved tlou 2 plotting was bad when people who loved tlou 2 plotting disliked the second season.

Anyways, technically, its at the top and nobody still beats Naughty Dog. The cancellation of Factions was the most dissapointing thing of this gen and it was desrespectful how Sony treated Naughty dog Based on Bungie's advice (if people went deep into the leaks).

And it feels like Naughty Dog just dissapeared afterwards but I hope they put out something this gen.

 

[BbMajor7th]

I disliked the story at first, but sometime around my third playthrough I realised it was unintentionally genius. The gameplay, animations, graphics and encounter design were always fantastic, but it's also way too long. Second act drags like a bastard, as do the playable story sequences where you're just walking and talking (or more often mumbling).

 

[RickSanchez]

TLOU 2 pacing and story is an absolute MESS gameplay wise superior to 1 but TLOU is by far the superior game and experience

TLOU 2 made gameplay and graphical improvements over TLOU 1, but that doesn't make it the superior product.

TLOU 1 is overall the better experience. Story, pacing and character arcs in TLOU 1 are magnitudes better than TLOU 2. Also there is an undercurrent of positive hope and catharsis in TLOU 1, whereas TLOU 2 is a misery simulator. I already have enough misery in real life, i prefer my games to be happier experiences.

 

[GymWolf]

Never understood the story controversy. Like aren't you people tired of the same stories in gaming? Why not embrace something thats trying to do something different? When I sit to consume something, I'm always hoping for something unpredictable, different, something to affect me. And TLOU 2 tried instead of just giving people what they want, that's commendable even if you don't like it.

Always thought the tv audiences would like it a lot more but seems the controversy got to Neil's head. The tv series second season was like a mom trying to explain every single thing carefully, so absolutely terrified of being controversial. I don't think its accurate to say the tv show proved tlou 2 plotting was bad when people who loved tlou 2 plotting disliked the second season.

Anyways, technically, its at the top and nobody still beats Naughty Dog. The cancellation of Factions was the most dissapointing thing of this gen and it was desrespectful how Sony treated Naughty dog Based on Bungie's advice (if people went deep into the leaks).

And it feels like Naughty Dog just dissapeared afterwards but I hope they put out something this gen.

The game was a simple revenge story dude, it was just a shit one with no pay off and a lot of ridicolous shit and contrivance.

Living the 3 days from 2 different prospectives doesn't really change much.

Don't get me wrong, it was more original than the uber-predictable story of the first one where you know how it is gonna end the moment they kill his real daughter and you can only be surprised if you never consumed any media in the past 30 years but more original isn't always better.

 

[laynelane]

I agree with you about people not liking the story nearly as much as the first game. But I was thinking more of how the reactions weren't similar in a sense that that dislike turned to hate with regards to the game, and will just stay as a dislike with regards to the show.

Maybe since it's a different medium, as you mentioned, that may also explain the more heated reaction on the gaming side. As well, gaming seems like a more insulated fandom than television/movies. Like, it's huge but also small in many ways so stuff like the leaks had a huge impact - not only in terms of vitriol but also in disappointment or anticipation depending on the person.

 

[Karim]

IDK, I was told the same thing about TLOU and felt scammed by internet hype, it was the most mundane and normal game ever, even from 7th gen there were games that vastly surpassed it in quality in more than one aspect like Bioshock, Mass Effect (any of them), etc. Even the story felt simple and cliche af.

I haven't played Part 2 but if it's like the first one, it's gonna be just another game of the bunch with some incomprehensible hype most probably.

 

[laynelane]

The game was a simple revenge story dude, it was just a shit one with no pay off and a lot of ridicolous shit and contrivance.

Living the 3 days from 2 different prospectives doesn't really change much.

Don't get me wrong, it was more original than the uber-predictable story of the first one where you know how it is gonna end the moment they kill his real daughter and you can only be surprised if you never consumed any media in the past 30 years but more original isn't always better.

I agree about the revenge story - it's been done over and over. I kind of agree about the the first game except one thing did surprise me. I knew that Joel and Ellie would form a close relationship, but was surprised by the ambivalence of the ending - by which I mean where Ellie straight up asked Joel a question and he lied to her. It was morally grey and open-ended and I really appreciated that.

 

[Kataploom]

Yes, it's a forum, here we post opinions... Right?

 

[Karim]

TLOU 2 made gameplay and graphical improvements over TLOU 1, but that doesn't make it the superior product.

TLOU 1 is overall the better experience. Story, pacing and character arcs in TLOU 1 are magnitudes better than TLOU 2. Also there is an undercurrent of positive hope and catharsis in TLOU 1, whereas TLOU 2 is a misery simulator. I already have enough misery in real life, i prefer my games to be happier experiences.

The story in TLOU2 it's pure shocking pornography. The whole narrative is only about to shake you emotionally but when you try to look what exactly going on it's like "but why they did this what's the fucking point". At least in the first you have a plot, in the sequel you really don't understand what is it supposed to be story to follow.

 

[viveks86]

The pacing is kinda bad, it's overly long, and I found it's messaging to be muddled. The ending falls flat simply because of how many people Ellie killed. The game tries to convey that she finally made peace with not having the chance to forgive Joel, which leads her to sparing Abby, therefore her journey to healing has begun. But that doesn't undo the 100+ people Ellie killed to get to Abby, including killing a pregnant woman. So the idea that Ellie will eventually find peace with all this is laughable. It's clearly too late for her, but Neil backed away from that. The story would've gone a lot harder if it actually committed to it's message about how destructive revenge is, by having Ellie kill Abby, and also kill Lev to tie up any loose ends. She completes her mission, but she loses everything in the process, and she is no longer the girl we knew from the first game. But instead Neil pussied out and gave us the sterile ending that we got. In fact, the original ending was supposed to have Ellie kill Abby. Neil should've gone with his initial instincts on that.

In my opinion stories like Vinland Saga and Clair Obsur have way more to say about revenge/grief than TLOU2 does. TLOU2 is a pretty straightforward revenge story, that does something rather interesting by having you play as the protagonists killer. So it gets credit for presenting a narrative that challenging. But I think when you get down to it's actual messaging, it's not as good as other stories like it.

For example when Vinland Saga wraps up it's revenge arc, it goes to great lengths afterward to actually show you why pacifism goes so hard, which makes for a much more fulfilling and inspiring story.

I agree with most of what you said except your issue with the ending. Whether she killed 1 person or 100 people before the final showdown is not relevant. Killing itself is not morally burdensome in that world. Loss is. Literally everyone kills from childhood. What they are showing is the human emotions behind said loss and the chance of healing yourself and letting go, even at rock bottom. Sure, killing everyone off and Ellie losing any chance of salvation could also be a way to tell that story, but then it ends up being another depressing revenge story with a ham-fisted "revenge is bad" message, the one all detractors accuse the game for anyway. "Revenge is bad" isn't even the core message anymore. This gives more nuance with a messy, broken, yet moving, redemption arc. It leaves us numb, but not entirely. Your alternative would have just left us numb.

It's just as easy to argue that they "pussied out" if they killed Abby and gave a majority of the fanbase what they wanted. There's far more deliberation happening in the writing room than just "what would the fans like to see?". There is no objectively good revenge arc to be comparing one with another. Any arc can be good if the underlying emotions conveyed feel authentic to the viewer. And that's far more subjective than people are willing to admit.

 

[kpopSuperstar]

The pacing is fine, TLOU 2 is long? So what? thats bang for your buck and quality. What was muddled about the messaging? I think the masses want the standard, cliche, story tropes and can't handle when something deviates from the normal and expected. In TLOU 2 it shows things from both Ellies and Abbys perspective and made you feel various emotions as you had to control Abby the person you absolutely hate for killing Joel. It makes you question your anger as you see things from Abbys perspective. In TLOU it makes you question morality. TLOU 2 took the divisive and brave choice of killing off a protagonist that you have grown to love, this shows how visceral the world is in TLOU 2. It all makes you question who the "good and bad guys" are. Killing Abby and Lev would have been cliche and cookie cutter. By the end of TLOU 2, Ellie, Lev and Abby are tired, weak, emotional and the ending was perfect to make you question "Is this worth it? Does any of this make sense? What does killing Ellie, Abby or anyone mean." Many of Abby friends and Ellie friends are gone and none of it was worth it. Ellie is tired and emotional and it shows her growth as a character.

It's not about "is it worth it". What you are missing is that they made Ellie into ted bundy, she slices throats and murders in the most brutal way. You dont come back from that, at the point she reaches Abby, sparing her betrays what they turned Ellie into.

The game doesnt understand how psychopaths like Ellie work. Shes written like a sitcom character that gets a big dramatic moment to end the game.

Abby and Lev was written like Ellie and Joel in the first game.

The reason she spared Abby and Lev, was so Druckman could say "she faced what Joel faced and spared them by learning from Joels actions and not repeating it."

Druckman wanted to draw parallels between the games and fucked the story by not letting Ellie follow her natural conclusion.

Its like if Kratos would let Ares go in God of War 1 because he wanted to stop being so mean at the end.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

great game, but dont want to play it a second time

too much non-gameplay stuff

 

[Woggleman]

Some people just wanted to see Abby dead. That is why they are against the ending.

 

[Karim]

IDK, I was told the same thing about TLOU and felt scammed by internet hype, it was the most mundane and normal game ever, even from 7th gen there were games that vastly surpassed it in quality in more than one aspect like Bioshock, Mass Effect (any of them), etc. Even the story felt simple and cliche af.

I haven't played Part 2 but if it's like the first one, it's gonna be just another game of the bunch with some incomprehensible hype most probably.

I mean you can't like TLOU 1 and that's fine but every fucking time there is this annoying elitist attitude to define it overhyped from many people who doesn't like it which it's frankly quite annoying and tiring. It's not like Bioshock or Mass effect are that perfection neither. TLoU1 got the praise who deserves and that's all. One can accept it or less but define mundane and normal seems almost an insult for who like it, imo.

 

[Sevyne]

Did you replay the Abby sex scene?

I have that as my animated wallpaper. It's like a coffee substitute for me in the morning.

 

[Danny22]

The game was a simple revenge story dude, it was just a shit one with no pay off and a lot of ridicolous shit and contrivance.

Living the 3 days from 2 different prospectives doesn't really change much.

Don't get me wrong, it was more original than the uber-predictable story of the first one where you know how it is gonna end the moment they kill his real daughter and you can only be surprised if you never consumed any media in the past 30 years but more original isn't always better.

Fair, in the book world, this would the least controversial 7 out of 10 revenge story.

Gamers just make so much noise, such strong feelings, either love it or hate it, that its tiring.

Still, I do think it took risks in storytelling for a video game, the medium that usually has terrible stories, so one can appreciate that.

 

[XERXES_89]

TLOU2 is not a "simple revenge story", fcs. xDDDD

The game is about empathy and knowing how to forgive. Abby doesn't find peace after killing Joel, but after finding another purpose and helping characters she'd previously dehumanized. The same thing happens to Ellie: she spares Abby when she remembers her last conversation with Joel, which is precisely about forgivness.

 

[Karim]

TLOU2 is not a "simple revenga story", fcs. xDDDD

The game is about empathy and knowing how to forgive. Abby doesn't find peace after killing Joel, but after finding another purpose and helping characters she'd previously dehumanized. The same thing happens to Ellie: she spares Abby when she remembers her last conversation with Joel, which is precisely about forgivness.

Would be cool if there was an interesting plot outside spread empathy and forgiviness.

 

[XERXES_89]

Would be cool if there was an interesting plot outside teach empathy and forgiviness.

Do you know the difference between plot and story?

 

[Karim]

Do you know the difference between plot and story?

You ask for what reason?

 

[GymWolf]

TLOU2 is not a "simple revenga story", fcs. xDDDD

The game is about empathy and knowing how to forgive. Abby doesn't find peace after killing Joel, but after finding another purpose and helping characters she'd previously dehumanized. The same thing happens to Ellie: she spares Abby when she remembers her last conversation with Joel, which is precisely about forgivness.

Doesn't make sense after killing a small city worth of men and all of his friends and an unborn child, it was way too late to show mercy, not when you also left your wife and kid forever to kill the bitch, to do that the revenge must be eating you inside and no memory of joel is gonna solve that, if anything it should lit an even bigger fire.

And abby sparing her after she killed all her decades long friends and his lover just because lev say so was even more retarded, you don't forget someone killing LITERALLY your entire world because a kid you meet yesterday tell you to spare the killer.

 

[viveks86]

The game doesnt understand how psychopaths like Ellie work.

But Ellie isn't a pyschopath. You are building your whole argument on a false premise. Killing in that setting does not make you a psychopath, just like it wouldn't have made you one 10,000 years ago before civilizations started to form. You certainly don't kill your own people or for sport, but all other reasons were fair game, before we started establishing rules and, over time, got conditioned to said rules. And levels of brutality are subjective to communities and periods too. Joel killed just as many people. Is he a psychopath? Tommy was a raider too. Is he a psychopath? Seeing red and going on an ill-advised revenge spree doesn't make you one. It does only if you did all that and didn't feel a thing. The whole game is about how several millennia's worth of agreed rules were dismantled within decades and about the mounting, and eventually overwhelming, moral and emotional burden of Ellie's actions on her (the same goes for Abby too), which is the very opposite of your assumed premise.

 

[Mortisfacio]

i enjoyed the 2nd. Solid game, but I've replayed quite a few games because of how much I enjoyed them. I don't plan on ever replaying TloU2. I'm content with my time with it, but it's not a top game for me.

 

[XERXES_89]

Doesn't make sense after killing a small city worth of men and all of his friends and an unborn child, it was way too late to show mercy, not when you also left your wife and kid forever to kill the bitch, to do that the revenge must be eating you inside and no memory of joel is gonna solve that, if anything it should lit an even bigger fire.

And abby sparing her after she killed all her decades long friends and his lover just because lev say so was even more retarded, you don't forget someone killing LITERALLY your entire world because a kid you meet yesterday tell you to spare the killer.

The game doesn't portray Ellie's actions in a positive light. On the contrary. There is constant disapproval of her actions from her peers, who constantly insist she's going too far. These actions negatively impact Ellie's psychological and physical appearance, as we see her growing increasingly thin and displaying symptoms of PTSD. The game even gives us control in certain situations to force us to do things that we, as players, probably don't want to do.

As for Abby, by the time she spares Ellie and Dina, she's already changed. She's broke up with her previous world -perpetuos cycle of violence- because the only thing that's helped her overcome her trauma is finding a new purpose: hope, represented by Lev.

 

[GymWolf]

The game doesn't portray Ellie's actions in a positive light. On the contrary. There is constant disapproval of her actions from her peers, who constantly insist she's going too far. These actions negatively impact Ellie's psychological and physical appearance, as we see her growing increasingly thin and displaying symptoms of PTSD. The game even gives us control in certain situations to force us to do things that we, as players, probably don't want to do.

As for Abby, by the time she spares Ellie and Dina, she's already changed. She's broke up with her previous world -perpetuos cycle of violence- because the only thing that's helped her overcome her trauma is finding a new purpose: hope, represented by Lev.

Too fast of a change for abby, ellie killed her entire world worth of human affection, you don't get to spare the bitch, not when she doesn't even have time to cool down, if lev is not in that scene, she kill both chicks, and lev being enough to cool her down is bullshit.

The people ellie killed weren't distant friend she knew for 2 weeks, they were historic friend for long time, plus the love of her life, there is no sparing after that unless you already wrote a story full of absurd contrivance so one more doesn't hurt too much.

 

[kpopSuperstar]

But Ellie isn't a pyschopath. You are building your whole argument on a false premise. Killing in that setting does not make you a psychopath, just like it wouldn't have made you one 10,000 years ago before civilizations started to form. You certainly don't kill your own people or for sport, but all other reasons were fair game, before we started establishing rules and, over time, got conditioned to said rules. And levels of brutality are subjective to communities and periods too. Joel killed just as many people. Is he a psychopath? Tommy was a raider too. Is he a psychopath? Seeing red and going on an ill-advised revenge spree doesn't make you one. It does only if you did all that and didn't feel a thing. The whole game is about how several millennia's worth of agreed rules were dismantled within decades and about the mounting, and eventually overwhelming, moral and emotional burden of Ellie's actions on her (the same goes for Abby too), which is the very opposite of your assumed premise.

Yes, it makes Joel and Tommy psychopaths. One thing is survival, but going after people is different. But you could perhaps reason for their behaviors.

But Ellie is different. She guts people, she grabs people and rip them open. Its impossible to act like Ellie without being a complete psychopath. She does not need to do it, but hunts people down and guts them with a knife because she is angry. She travels across the country looking for people to murder. She kills hundreds to find one person. This is not "its a bad world so people act bad" sort of situation, this is a "she enjoys killing on some level and cant function in normal situations" type of situation.

And she is a teenager. Which would realistically make her even more deranged.

 

[semiconscious]

The pacing is kinda bad, it's overly long, and I found it's messaging to be muddled. The ending falls flat simply because of how many people Ellie killed. The game tries to convey that she finally made peace with not having the chance to forgive Joel, which leads her to sparing Abby, therefore her journey to healing has begun. But that doesn't undo the 100+ people Ellie killed to get to Abby, including killing a pregnant woman. So the idea that Ellie will eventually find peace with all this is laughable. It's clearly too late for her, but Neil backed away from that. The story would've gone a lot harder if it actually committed to it's message about how destructive revenge is, by having Ellie kill Abby, and also kill Lev to tie up any loose ends. She completes her mission, but she loses everything in the process, and she is no longer the girl we knew from the first game. But instead Neil pussied out and gave us the sterile ending that we got. In fact, the original ending was supposed to have Ellie kill Abby. Neil should've gone with his initial instincts on that...

well, it's neil that also backed away from the original game's ending. 'The game tries to convey that she finally made peace with not having the chance to forgive Joel...' this's correct. but, could it also have been that ellie finally came to realize that there was never anything to forgive joel for? that what he did was, under the circumstances, morally justified in every way? that's something that was a strong possibility by the end of the original game & that just sorta vanishes as one in the sequel. so, yeah, neil is nothing if not 'flexible'...

 

[Bartski]

In a lot of ways I agree, still the best action adventure game ever made but I was done arguing about it in 2020

 

[Bernardougf]

I'm the same, but I did watch The Rise of Skywalker to see if J.J could fix that shit, I commend his attempt but as I feared nothing could fix that shit especially in one film.
I still remember coming out the cinema after TLJ, both my sister's boyfriend and I was silent just casually looking at eachother until halfway home in the car and then both of us went on a rant.
I'm not even a mega Star Wars fan but that shit was terrible.

Yeah I remember the theater dead silent after TLJ .. eveyone basically in shock thinking "WTF did I just watched?" .. I also remember several awkward laughs in some scenes that just wasn't purposely made to be laughed at it.