It's like poetry.
The Last of Us Part II announced
- Thread starter Greatest Ever
- Start date
It's like poetry.
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
Yea, it's this and the fact that in my perception of things Ellie isn't being mandated by society to only like a specific gender/sex. She likes whomever regardless of sex, one action she took didn't define her. In a way, I think that's as important to say if not more so than just having a gay protagonist.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
A lot of my comments on this are based on the initial reaction to Ellie being considered a gay character back when the DLC was released, and there was an insane amount of reluctance in gaming threads to call her a gay character, some even going so far as to say the kiss was just a friendly kiss, because that's just something girls who are good friends do! However, a lot of what I'm saying still applies even with this.
Ellie isn't a person, Ellie is a character who has zero agency and is written by other people.
If Ellie were real, would she identify as gay? Probably. We're 20 years removed from the outbreak, people who are alive now grew up before the fall. The idea that because society as we know it has crumbled means they live in some type of utopia where self identification doesn't exist is kinda strange. Kids still grow up on local social constructs, and in this case she grew up in a boarding school with other kids, so obviously the topic of romance exists. Ones sexuality is still important even with the circumstances of the end of the modern world.
The story of TLoU isn't about her figuring out she is gay, but Left Behind is her moment of self discovery in one form or another. With the context of Left Behind, the ending of TLoU is given a new impact because she is thinking of a lover, not just a friend she lost like Sam. (As well as the Farm House scene)
This circles back around to my previous statement that maybe there is a part of Ellie that might like the dick or can be turned straight.
1) I don't think it was ever mentioned she was in an all girls school
2) Even if she was, what does that have to do with anything with her sexuality? Like she settled with a girl because that's all she had access to at the time? I don't understand the point you're trying to make with that.
Ellie is a character and we take her actions and create meaning to them. Just because Ellie might not identify as gay in the story doesn't mean we can't call her a gay character and talk about the ramifications of having one of the most anticipated games in history be headlined by an open lesbian.
Because when you try to bog this down in the minutia of "well she might not want that label, in the world of TLoU...", you strip away the importance of something like this using semantics for the sake of reducing conversation on a highly political/social subject.
A lot of the kickback to her sexuality was from parts of the gaming communities that just wanted to sweep it under the rug and say "oh yea it was romance who cares if she is gay or bi" and another that reacted by rejecting the notion she was a lesbian outright, mainly at an aim to reduce the idea of politics being in games.
So yes, while characters or the world of TLoU may not really care if Ellie is gay, I do care and I want to talk about it, because it's one of the most important moments in gaming.
A lot of what you're posting is hypothetical or just guessing. Of course some people struggle with sexual identity and it's not a straight road. All we have to go off of with Ellie is literally a coming of age romance game with high amounts of sexual tension and a base game that never really covered Ellie's own sexual history. I'm comfortable enough to say based on all the information the games provide (not even going with the writers/actress take on the game) that Ellie is gay.
I believe if Ellie had interest in guys it would have at least been hinted at. TLoU is a fictional, controlled story and Neil has explored Ellie's childhood three times now without suggesting she's attracted to guys. It is possible that she's bi or just experimenting and Neil didn't care to explain that, but it's weird to act as if that's more probable than her being lesbian when no details support that theory.
I don't think we would.
I don't think we would.
Toni
Member
A 19 year old girl being talked about getting raped so she can get pregnant, should have you shook, bro.
hairygreenpeas
Neo Member
Eloquently put!
Also someone link to that one thread that is basically "Gay Video Game Characters, Representation, and Other Important Stuff 101" because it's relevant and this thread might end up needing it lol.
And yeahhhhh. Still fucked up regardless of the character's sexual orientation. :/ I just don't jive with rape being used as a plot device. If we're talking semantics here in regards to the world of TLOU, would Ellie even be bothered to carry the baby to term? What about abortion? Rape is an incredibly heavy subject you guys. While I have no doubt Druckmann would have the utmost sensitivity in approaching the issue, I would personally rather they don't.
Maybe instead of a baby, Ellie goes on a Firefly massacre because they killed Joel and kidnapped a girl she's sweet with.
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
PSY・S;236025322 said:
I wasn't arguing that her being attracted to guys was more probable. Just anyone dismissing the theory that Ellie could be pregnant and ruling out that her actions as a child defines her entire life as an adult...which I didn't/do agree with. If they want Ellie to be a lesbian that's fine, I don't think anyone who genuinely liked the game and story would have an issue with it. I was speaking initially in support of someone's theory, which made sense, and I was supporting why it did make sense. That was all.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
I'm not discounting the theory, but it sounds like something a total hack would write. Especially for a TLoU game that Druckmann wants his daughter to play. But hey keep moving the goalposts to 'what mom's can't be heroes???' and 'lesbians can't experiment??'.
I'm pretty sure both Bruce and Druckmann promoted articles on their twitter that Ellie was confirmed gay. Jesus christ tho, it's so damn obvious that it's Ellie's Mom, did we not play Uncharted 4? If the posters defending "rape baby lesbian" were actual writers for ND, they'd turn a ND game into a Kojima one. xD
99% sure but hey, could eat crow.
I'm pretty sure both Bruce and Druckmann promoted articles on their twitter that Ellie was confirmed gay. Jesus christ tho, it's so damn obvious that it's Ellie's Mom, did we not play Uncharted 4? If the posters defending "rape baby lesbian" were actual writers for ND, they'd turn a ND game into a Kojima one. xD
99% sure but hey, could eat crow.
Eloquently put!
Also someone link to that one thread that is basically "Gay Video Game Characters, Representation, and Other Important Stuff 101" because it's relevant and this thread might end up needing it lol.
And yeahhhhh. Still fucked up regardless of the character's sexual orientation. :/ I just don't jive with rape being used as a plot device. If we're talking semantics here in regards to the world of TLOU, would Ellie even be bothered to carry the baby to term? What about abortion? Rape is an incredibly heavy subject you guys. While I have no doubt Druckmann would have the utmost sensitivity in approaching the issue, I would personally rather they don't.
Maybe instead of a baby, Ellie goes on a Firefly massacre because they killed Joel and kidnapped a girl she's sweet with.
I've mentioned it as a possibility, but I agree with you there. It would be a major concern for any woman outside (and inside) the quarantine zones. I always assumed that the gangs looking for 'tourists' were up to that shit. But its a very serious issue, and would have to be the main focus of the game to do it justice. It could be mentioned as something Ellie has to consider on her journey, but that would be enough for me.
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
I'm not sure if you're replying to my post but those things that you stated were said by other posters not myself. I guess time will tell what direction ND will take the franchise and who the person in the respirator is. I'm not discounting that it's her mom, just rather not retread the past but move into the future with a story solely for Ellie.
eso76
Member
I am under the impression that some people here are likening pregnancy to being "unable to drive" or "only good in the kitchen".
Like "oh, sure, they have a girl action hero and what would they do with her ? Make her pregnant, of course ! Because that's what women do, right ? Get pregnant ! She couldn't be like her male counterparts and not get pregnant, right ?".
Like that would lessen Ellie's character...
Oh well, not that I think that's what ND is going to do with her.
At the same time though, the power of the father-daughter like relationship in the first TLOU would be hard to match without the story involving...uh..parenthood.
Like "oh, sure, they have a girl action hero and what would they do with her ? Make her pregnant, of course ! Because that's what women do, right ? Get pregnant ! She couldn't be like her male counterparts and not get pregnant, right ?".
Like that would lessen Ellie's character...
Oh well, not that I think that's what ND is going to do with her.
At the same time though, the power of the father-daughter like relationship in the first TLOU would be hard to match without the story involving...uh..parenthood.
There is a tradition/narrative in fiction and in real life of women only being good for carrying children. That's not imaginary.
I've said a couple times it's cool if Ellie wants a child. I don't think ND are going that direction, though.
And to your last point, there are other, equally effective ways to treat the theme of parenthood without actually having someone in the text be preggo. Assuming that's even the thread Naughty Dog want to follow with this project.
Nah, we're just chattin'
hairygreenpeas
Neo Member
From the various posts in this thread and having previously contributed to the discussion, it's more along the lines of how she could potentially get pregnant should ND choose to pursue that scenario (a theory entirely based off on the American Daughters poster in UC4, which I personally believe to be of Ellie's momma), and it branched off to a separate conversation about sexuality/les-erasure/LGBT representation because Ellie has already been established by Druckmann and Straley to be gay. People were quick to chime in a scenario in which Ellie is raped, and while not entirely implausible given the dangerous world presented in TLOU
(David the creep, anyone?)
There are also those who suggest that Ellie would end sleep with a dude and get preggers, which you would know how I feel about if you read my previous posts lol. In TLDR of my posts: les-erasure, harmful lesbian stereotypes/cliches, undermining of gay representation, and also a plea for ND to keep Ellie super gay with flannel on top and to give her a dope-ass girlfriend. ;D
I have zero qualms playing as a preggo lady. In fact, I would very much love to play as Ellie's momma while she's carrying her to term!
Lmaooo
That is certainly the feeling I get sometimes.
As I have previously mentioned, it seems like female sexuality is talked about more and is constantly under skeptic scrutiny as opposed to male sexuality. I highly doubt there would be this much talk about Ellie's sexuality had she been a dude.
eso76
Member
Women can and do get pregnant though. That's not a sexist trope.
That doesn't mean Ellie would just sit there waiting for Joel to bring her strawberries.
Fight the idiotic narrative/tradition showing that Ellie can be as badass as Joel WHILE carrying children, thus being even more badass.
Like I said, I don't think this is what they'd do, nor what they should do, although it could have interesting developments as Ellie slowly grows to understand Joel's motive.
I just don't understand why people are getting rabid at the idea.
Hairygreenpeas: that part I understand perfectly. While I don't think rape is necessarily 'lazy device' I think the subject is way too complex to tackle and I would rather them avoid the slippery slope altogether and Ellie should definitely stay 100% lesbian.
I can think of ways to get Ellie pregnant without resorting to rape or straight consensual sex that wouldn't sound unrealistic given the circumstances, but that's beyond the point I wanted to make.
hairygreenpeas
Neo Member
You know, whenever pregnancy gets mentioned here, I immediately imagine playing as a lady who is relatively far along in her pregnancy lmao. I think that would be super dope, as it could potentially present some challenges to the player given that pregnant women are largely restricted from physically exerting themselves too much. I wonder how ND would tackle it should they go down that road (flashback with Ellie's momma pls). Sniping while pregnant?
GravityInsanity
Member
This thread...
eso76
Member
They wouldn't let that get in the way of gameplay though. Yeah, it would be interesting but not much fun probably ;D
I agree with your post. Well said.
In my mind, she is Bi. She can be gay more than full on straight but we don't really know that. I dislike when publications though want to push an agenda and try to make things up as if they are confirmed 100%. As far as the main game and DLC, its still not clear which is ok. People on both camps shouldn't be arguing whether she is or isn't something.
What if she grew up and make a special connection with the black kid? (sorry forgot his name) Who is to say she is just bi? Obviously he had a terrible fate so we couldnt find out. I get the feeling Ellie made a special bond with Riley and both felt very comfortable around each other's presence.
From the beginning of the DLC, you can tell they are very tight. What if Riley was the only real friend she grew up with? What if they just fell in love due to all the bad shit around them that left them no other choice? I mean I didnt read any media or shit from the DLC so when you get little hints of their relationship and then the kiss, I was blown away. (I'm bad at "reading" some behaviors..lol didnt see it coming!) I felt more respect for the character.
Whatever the case, Ellie is a bad ass. Gay or not, I want to use her bow and go hunting.
Just shipping
SolidSnakex
Member
Neil has specifically said she's gay
She really didn't grow up with Riley. The first time they met was in the American Dreams comic. Now Riley is certainly the person she was closest to before Joel as from that comic it didn't really seem like she had any friends. But we've pretty much seen the majority of their relationship between AD and LB.
Oh yea? Didnt know. Cool. Guess that solves that lol.
thing is, there are other people in this thread that know perfectly well that Neil said and confirmed 100% that Ellie is Lesbian long ago and they will still find "hints" that point at her being Bi or whatever.
pathetic
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I haven't even mentioned what the actual writers and actors thought on the scene because authorial intent really isn't important, but if you can't read obvious romantic signals (on a game that was released on valentines day), and don't understand that "good friends" don't make out, then that's really on you.
Art has agendas. Sorry, but nothing is made completely objectively. People are inspired and have goals when they create something, so if you don't like studios making games with specific ideas in mind then I'm not sure how you enjoy games. Arguing about themes and concepts of the story is one thing, making up hypothetical romantic encounters to prove she isn't gay is another.
We've only had one game, Left Behind, focus on her character's sexuality and romantic interest... and that happened to be with another girl. So, I think it's perfectly reasonable to make arguments that Ellie is gay. Because as I said before, Ellie isn't a real person and is a character who should absolutely be dissected and be given labels for the sake of conversation and exploring the story and characters deeper.
If Sam (the black kid) lived long enough to have a special connection with Ellie, then you know what that makes them? Friends.
"It's ok if she's gay, but I don't want her to really be gay". While that may not be what you intend on saying, that's basically what is said when I read all these ways possible ways she's not gay
Again, I'm not really seeing a defense for her not being gay to be the inclusion of a bi character, I see it as having an negative reaction to the idea that she is gay, based on the insane logic loops that have to be jumped through to show she isn't (what if she was the only person she knew, what if it was an all girls boarding school, they are just really tight, they are just really good friends! etc..)
Because it does matter if she's gay, her being gay means something to someone, and there have been plenty of people who have played Left Behind and have related to Ellie specifically because she is gay
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
I was just thinking it's too bad we never got that MGS prequel starring The Boss while she was pregnant with Ocelot during World War II.PSY・S;236046283 said:
Then I remembered how randomly skeevy Kojima can be with female characters and certain topics and thought, "you know, we might've dodged a bullet..."
July 14 2016
http://www.scpr.org/programs/the-fr...-into-naughty-dog-game-creator-neil-druckman/
Neil Druckmann: Likewise, "The Last Of Us Left Behind" which is a small story in the universe of "The Last Of Us" where we reveal that one of the protagonists, Ellie, is gay.A lot of people have come to the actress who plays Ellie, Ashley Johnson, and have told her playing that game and having Ellie as this role model gave them the strength to come out to their friends. It's amazing the power of narrative and the power of interactive narrative and how much that can give people strength.
http://www.scpr.org/programs/the-fr...-into-naughty-dog-game-creator-neil-druckman/
Neil Druckmann: Likewise, "The Last Of Us Left Behind" which is a small story in the universe of "The Last Of Us" where we reveal that one of the protagonists, Ellie, is gay.A lot of people have come to the actress who plays Ellie, Ashley Johnson, and have told her playing that game and having Ellie as this role model gave them the strength to come out to their friends. It's amazing the power of narrative and the power of interactive narrative and how much that can give people strength.
Seriously. Reading parts of this thread lately has been embarassing.
Dat Gay Agenda, eh? /s
I think everyone is forgetting this lady:
and this lady:
Both kickass characters who also happen to be pregnant. Please note how I phrased that. The pregnancy is not the defining trait of the character, they just happen to be pregnant while going about their normal (well, as normal as being a Minnesotan police officer or MI5 intelligence operative gets I guess) lives.
Ellie as a lesbian doesn't preclude pregnancy, but the narrative roads to that pregnancy being consensual are pretty limited unless you undermine her sexuality in the way hairygreenpeas has argued or have a nihilist 19 year old survivor agreeing to being artificially inseminated.
Of course as we know the scientists of the Fireflies have zero ethics when it comes to consensual medical procedures, so it wouldn't be narratively inconsistent for them to have e.g. drugged & inseminated Ellie, but it would be a stretch and require the additional story that the Fireflies have changed tack in their search for a cure/vaccine.
I think everyone is forgetting this lady:
and this lady:
Both kickass characters who also happen to be pregnant. Please note how I phrased that. The pregnancy is not the defining trait of the character, they just happen to be pregnant while going about their normal (well, as normal as being a Minnesotan police officer or MI5 intelligence operative gets I guess) lives.
Ellie as a lesbian doesn't preclude pregnancy, but the narrative roads to that pregnancy being consensual are pretty limited unless you undermine her sexuality in the way hairygreenpeas has argued or have a nihilist 19 year old survivor agreeing to being artificially inseminated.
Of course as we know the scientists of the Fireflies have zero ethics when it comes to consensual medical procedures, so it wouldn't be narratively inconsistent for them to have e.g. drugged & inseminated Ellie, but it would be a stretch and require the additional story that the Fireflies have changed tack in their search for a cure/vaccine.
Don't remind me. Man, I'm so mad as hell over Videl in Dragonball Super. She a completely different character now. Doesn't fight and has no sass.
Dear fucking beelzebub with you guys. Gay women getting pregnant isn't more far fetched than fungus zombies, but from a narrative POV for Last of Us 2
-she's actually not a lesbian at all, haha, fooled ya'll. We can't have dem GAYS infect our games. Young people always grow over that experimental phase in their lives.
-still a lesbian but she totally boned a guy because she's so desperate to bring a child into the world of Last of Us at age 19-22. Like, after all she's been through & all she witnessed, she couldn't wait but go find some random guy to bang her until she was da preggers
-still a lesbian but let's have her be raped because THAT isn't an overused trope at all.
-she totally got sperm donations from some guy and injected those into her pussy for as long as she had to to be certain she's pregnant.
all sound either bad or lazy writing (not lesbian, rape) or just very, very implausible considering the state of the world in TLoU (in addition to proooobably leading to bad/awkward writing)
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
You're the real MVP, Big Boss. Beautiful video.
EdReedFan20
Member
As Ellie can't be the only immune person in the world of TLOU, (it's just improbable), perhaps they could introduce a new character that, like Ellie is immune, but also is pregnant, making her particularly valuable to the Fireflies or other groups due to the unborn baby and what it represents (maybe she broke out of a Firefly facility when she found out what they planned to do and is on the run). Ellie and Joel (provided he's actually alive and not dead/a figment of Ellie's imagination as others have speculated) could run into this woman and vow to protect her and her unborn child from the those out to take the baby (for god know's what).
UnemployedVillain
Member
I don't think that's how it works
I like where this is going.
Ellie MC
Immune mother and wanted child
Joel is gone
A partner for Ellie
I'd love to see the dynamic between Ellie, the mother and daughter, and a potential romantic partner.
GravityInsanity
Member
This is my theory as well.
I am puzzled how at one point this thread went from Joel and Ellie having a relationship, Ellie being raped, and now Ellie is pregnant. What is going on?
EdReedFan20
Member
PSY・S;236060596 said:
Perhaps. Or maybe the mother could also have a sister with her, which could be the potential romantic partner. The bond between Ellie and the sister would grow throughout the game. Then, later in the game, either as the child is born or shortly thereafter, the mother dies (either due to the birth or something else) and pleas for her sister and Ellie to raise the child. And if you want to get cheesy, maybe the child is a boy and they name it Joel (if Joel is not among the living at that point) or Riley or Sarah, if it is a girl
Lord of Castamere
Member
Yeah, this line of thought sucks. Let's go back to Ghost Joel. I like that better.
This is getting too fanfictiony for me lol. I'd just like to see what Neil would do with those four as main characters.
EdReedFan20
Member
PSY・S;236061406 said:
Ah, I see what you're saying. For some reason, I thought you were combining the mother and the romantic partner into one character. That romantic partner character being completely unrelated to the mother/child would work just as fine.
hairygreenpeas
Neo Member
I'm onboard.PSY・S;236060596 said:
But what if the pregnant woman they could potentially run into turns out to be... Ellie's romantic partner. BOOM. They raise the child together and live happily ever after.
(Y'all, this is why I try to avoid reading theories/coming up with my own because then I have all these fanfiction-y expectations lmao.)
edit: Wait I'm confused now. Are we talking about the same thing PSY・S? rofl I think I may have misread your post!
EdReedFan20
Member
I'm onboard.
But what if the pregnant woman they could potentially run into turns out to be... Ellie's romantic partner. BOOM. They raise the child together and live happily ever after.
(Y'all, this is why I try to avoid reading theories/coming up with my own because then I have all these fanfiction-y expectations lmao.)
edit: Wait I'm confused now. Are we talking about the same thing PSY・S? rofl I think I may have misread your post!
I made the same mistake. They had the romantic partner has a fourth character, but I read it as one character (the mother/romantic partner). Which I why I added a sister for her that tags along.
This does veer too much into fanfiction territory, but perhaps the bit with the Fireflies could be they promise the woman (who wishes to raise a child, alone if need be) that they can use medical technology (despite its age) they have available to provide her an opportunity to give birth to a child. This, as she discovers is both true and false. She will give birth to a child (hopefully healthy), but it will not be hers (to keep). She finds out they mean to take the baby as their own and have her give birth to another child as soon as she is able, as a means to "grow" as many immune children as possible. She escapes and finds Ellie, who as we know has no love of the Fireflies.
hairygreenpeas
Neo Member
Lol, oh man and I thought I was introducing a dope-ass concept! Would definitely vouch for either scenario though, sister or the pregnant woman works with me. /keepingexpectationsincheck
But I'm most definitely interested in how Druckmann is going to approach Ellie's romantic relationship(s). He doesn't seem the type to introduce an LGBT character and just leave them forever single with little to no hints of past/present romantic entanglements. I feel like he's committed to Ellie's character and I'm super excited to see what he's got in store for her.
