I will admit it has been a while since I watched TLA, but I don't recall him tossing around things as hefty as Korra, but it is fair to speculate that Ang was stronger overall in the Avatar state given that he was much more advanced spiritually in comparison. Korra has always struggled with that aspect of herself, though I loved the fact that she was such a potent fighter, having been trained from birth. We really needed more scenes like in season one where sans any bending whatsoever she manipulated an opponent in close and then just delivers a knockout by straight up kicking them in the face. They kind of had her default to bending at all times after season 1, but it was always great when they made a point of highlighting how strong her fighting skills are.
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The Legend of Korra: Book 4 |OT2| ALL HAIL THE GREAT UNITER
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I will admit it has been a while since I watched TLA, but I don't recall him tossing around things as hefty as Korra, but it is fair to speculate that Ang was stronger overall in the Avatar state given that he was much more advanced spiritually in comparison. Korra has always struggled with that aspect of herself, though I loved the fact that she was such a potent fighter, having been trained from birth. We really needed more scenes like in season one where sans any bending whatsoever she manipulated an opponent in close and then just delivers a knockout by straight up kicking them in the face. They kind of had her default to bending at all times after season 1, but it was always great when they made a point of highlighting how strong her fighting skills are.
Please elaborate on this. What do you mean by "subversive"?
To me and a few others the end of the Kuvira fight was them taking a massive dump on Kuvira's character in order for them to make the fight stop and wrap things up in time for the end.
Nothing stops this train. I've watched the finale 3 times now and I can barely remember anything that happens in it except for the last 5 minutes. The ending really had me legit shook.
WrenchNinja
Member
He definitely was. He was a force of elemental rage and destruction
But again, to be fair to Korra, she was being poisoned, and she was cut off from all of her past lives. She was really impressive despite all of this.
What character?
Sort of joking aside, the point is Korra talked Kuvira down. That approach is pretty uncommon in western animation.
Usually when that sort of thing happens, the villain ends up dying anyway.
Something is most definitely missing from that scene though. And I am not just referring to Kuvira's characterization.
thebaroness
Member
As a side note I really enjoyed all the Empire comparisons in the season!
He definitely was. He was a force of elemental rage and destruction
But again, to be fair to Korra, she was being poisoned, and she was cut off from all of her past lives. She was really impressive despite all of this.
I doubt that they are much different in-universe.
The writers simply chose to de-power the Avatar State because it presented to many hurdles.
bishopcruz
Member
It's more than that, and there is a lot to discuss, but there are a couple of things to consider too.
One it's been, basically 2 days since the finale.
Two, the hook up is pretty unprecedented in american children's animation. Hints, yes, veiled subtext? Sure, but for a MAIN character, in a finale? Shit doesn't happen. So yeah it's big.
Secondly, people like their ships. And I don't mean that as a pejorative, honestly it is the way of shows. Hell, they even got into them when it came to Aang, which always seemed a little odd to me, him being 12 and all, but then again I was so outside the age range of the typical TLA fan that it would be hard to be to look at it that way. Hell I'm not even particularly interested in the ships in Korra probably because the last major ship I cared about in anything was Buffy/Xander, or Angel/Cordy and those haven't been relevant for the greater part of a decade now.
Still, I enjoy stories as they come, and I enjoyed the hell out of both TLA and LOK. I don't post in these parts much mainly because the threads are negative as hell in balance, and that's generally not the discussion that I want to have. Nothing against it, but I think I have LONG gone past the point of hating most stuff, or even bitching loudly about it.
And at the end of the day, the one big thing that MOST people seem to be cheering about right now when it comes to Korra is something I can cheer about too. Korrasami. I mean really look at it, a queer relationship not exactly out in the open, but clearly not in the closet. In a KIDS show. That's huge. I think back to the fact that my father growing up had no gay/bisexual role models in media, and if I have a kid should one of them be queer Korra is leading the way of them having characters that they could identify with is pretty awesome all things considered.
thebaroness
Member
I disagree. Even in universe, the point of the Avatar state was that it connected the Avatar with their past lives. Korra didn't have that connection anymore, she lost all that knowledge and was back to square one. Making the avatar state just her and Raava. It's bound to be de-powered.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
I'm not saying it isn't big or good, but I'm saying that now two-ish minutes (that don't have much to do with the rest of the show) are going to forever overshadow four seasons. And that's a shame.
Icyflamez96
Member
BRYKE ISN'T ON PERSON? HOLY S***
Overshadow, probably, but that's not a bad thing considering the gravity of Korra and Asami being canon. Trust me, people are still picking away at the books.
That is the thing though, we have seen Avatar State Korra before she lost her connection and her feats were not too impressive either.
That combined with no in-universe confirmation that she is weaker leads me to believe that she is not supposed to be.
"Talked her down" they talked alright but it was such horrible cliched crap that the de-escalation was almost unearned.
Plus if Korra could energy bend in the first place she could have avoided the destruction of the whole city and the stupid robot fight, but of course to dramatize the matter Korra could only do it after diving in front of Kuvira to save her from being killed by her own arrogance.
I'm disappointed Kuvira's reasoning for creating the Earth Empire was due to her being an orphan and feeling abandoned.
The writers could've easily given her some dialogue about how she felt the Earth Kingdom was in a poor, terrible state after the Fire Nation attacked and how she believed Zuko and Aang's work did little to fix anything for them. I think she mentioned earlier in Book 4 how Zaofu had all this technology but didn't want to share it.
The writers could've easily given her some dialogue about how she felt the Earth Kingdom was in a poor, terrible state after the Fire Nation attacked and how she believed Zuko and Aang's work did little to fix anything for them. I think she mentioned earlier in Book 4 how Zaofu had all this technology but didn't want to share it.
bishopcruz
Member
I doubt it will forever overshadow the four seasons, just give it some time to sink in. It's just the big news right now.
I IS unearned. The approach is still good though. Definitely a significant moment for Korra as a character.
The second paragraph is not entirely fair. While technically true, if we held every show to that standard, many would fall apart (including the original series).
All that REALLY matters with Korra bending that beam is that we are not at all surprised she can.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
My brother explained the way he saw it and I dug it a bit more. She didn't do it because she was an orphan, she did it because she saw Su refusing to take charge of the Earth Kingdom, essentially abandoning the people left in chaos that Zaheer left, the same way she felt her parents left her and she couldn't deal with it so she took charge to make sure that didn't happen. She didn't know how to deal with the resistance that she eventually met and resorted to force because she didn't want to be like Su and give up on the people.
It takes a bit of reading into, and it still isn't the best, but I feel I owe an apology to Toa Tak, Unalaq isn't better.
The moment was supposed to be an emotional one so her response was thus
She has provided more logically sound reasoning for her actions in previous episodes.
Yeah right now it might be all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg1RnAGncBQ
But there is a lot that is going to be discussed with this show for some time to come.
How did that Platinum Games video game end up?
In that perspective with that comparison, that makes sense. If it was that way, however, it could've been clearer and explained a bit better. However, I can buy that.
Agreed.
BKatastrophe
Member
Honestly I think Kuvira isn't a bad villain, she just doesn't have a major physical threat on her side, which makes her far less intimidating than other villains.
-Amon and Tarrlok were sick bloodbenders
-Unalaq had spiritbending he used to make a veritable army of spirits. Plus, he was a damn good waterbender. This is all before he merged with Vaatu.
-Zaheer was one of the strongest hand-to-hand fighters in the series, most likely (they kept him on the peak of a mountain) and he was a really good airbender. Plus his team alone were all powerful: Ghazan was the most powerful lavabender (though we haven't seen what Toph's got in that area), P'Li was a sick combustionbender, and Ming Hua was an exceptional waterbender since she could bend water without arms (waterbending uses primarily arms).
-Kuvira is...a metalbender? I mean, she's really good, but her endgame is essentially Ozai's. She's just waiting for her superweapon (giant spirit weapon mech vs. Sozin's Comet, really). She really doesn't have anything else. She's not even the best metalbender.
I'd say she's on the same tier as Zhao from ATLA. I mean, he DID kill the moon.
-Amon and Tarrlok were sick bloodbenders
-Unalaq had spiritbending he used to make a veritable army of spirits. Plus, he was a damn good waterbender. This is all before he merged with Vaatu.
-Zaheer was one of the strongest hand-to-hand fighters in the series, most likely (they kept him on the peak of a mountain) and he was a really good airbender. Plus his team alone were all powerful: Ghazan was the most powerful lavabender (though we haven't seen what Toph's got in that area), P'Li was a sick combustionbender, and Ming Hua was an exceptional waterbender since she could bend water without arms (waterbending uses primarily arms).
-Kuvira is...a metalbender? I mean, she's really good, but her endgame is essentially Ozai's. She's just waiting for her superweapon (giant spirit weapon mech vs. Sozin's Comet, really). She really doesn't have anything else. She's not even the best metalbender.
I'd say she's on the same tier as Zhao from ATLA. I mean, he DID kill the moon.
Yeah, it's apt to put her with Zhao. I don't think her skill as a bender should diminish her quality as an antagonist though. Considering all our villains so far have been exceptional in some shape or form in their skills or powers, I think Kuvira is convincing due to how much power she commands. She has so much power she felt she could take Republic City, and almost did.
Feel free to think I'm crazy, but I kind of wish she wasn't a bender at all. Though I'm not complaining about her powers now. I dig the fact she isn't a superhuman.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
been on a mini marathon since episode 8 and just finished episode 10 in which the creators gave a reason why the most OP characters (toph and katara, maybe zuko?) arent fighting really, cause they old as shit, which is fine I guess, not everyone can be bumi.
Apology accepted.
BKatastrophe
Member
What? Like, make her an Equalist? An Equalist dictator? I'd buy that. I'd buy that shit HARD.
Still, I don't think it diminishes her as a villain. I think, when you compare her to other villains in both series, that's the one thing they all had. They were all either unique or at the very least some of the strongest in their field. Zhao was probably the weakest out of all the major character, bending wise. Kuvira does fit that bill, I suppose. There were other benders stronger than her, though.
foxuzamaki said:
Well, the whole thing is that it's not really their fight. I think that was the idea. I mean, they sort of defined "The children are our future" in that world. Makes you wonder how powerful Katara is, though. If that's the person whose logic Toph was following.
Kuvira also was angry at Raiko and the other nations trying to take advantage of the Earth Kingdom's weakness. Raiko only wanted Prince Wu on the throne because Wu could be manipulated by Republic City. President Raiko didn't give a crap about what was best for the citizens of the Earth Kingdom. Kuvira threw a freakin' brick at Korra when she told her to surrender to Raiko.
This greatly parallels Cold War scenarios where the USA supported corrupt regimes not because we actually liked them but because it suited our own nation's interests. This is one of the reasons why Iran hates the US so much.
You're filling holes the writers left open. Can you look at it that way and say it was intentional? Sure. But given the Jinora bullshit from S2 it's safe to assume they just would let the fans do their writing for them again.
Unalaq had motivation and goals that made some good sense. He was a dick, but he had character.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
I hope you're right, but it's gonna take a hella long time.
Kuvira's power was military and political. The bending was just icing.
The fact that Kuvira was poised for all out war with Republic City should've been threat enough.
Kuvira had an entire military. Her Earth Empire was genuinely a big deal.
Amon and the Equalists were local to republic city.
Unalok was politically protected as part of a civil war and "internal affairs of the water nation"
Zaheer and the red lotus were an enemy to every state, were radical band of a few well connected people.
Kuvira had the entire earth empire/earth kingdom in her control.
Regardless of her not being recognized as legitimate by legal bodies, military might means they have to take you seriously and they were, all for it to unravel with Kuvira at republic city, who didn't even bring her full army.
The fact that Kuvira was poised for all out war with Republic City should've been threat enough.
Kuvira had an entire military. Her Earth Empire was genuinely a big deal.
Amon and the Equalists were local to republic city.
Unalok was politically protected as part of a civil war and "internal affairs of the water nation"
Zaheer and the red lotus were an enemy to every state, were radical band of a few well connected people.
Kuvira had the entire earth empire/earth kingdom in her control.
Regardless of her not being recognized as legitimate by legal bodies, military might means they have to take you seriously and they were, all for it to unravel with Kuvira at republic city, who didn't even bring her full army.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
I'm not filling holes at all except the last part about what made her methods so severe, but it's a safe assumption considering her "my way or the highway" personality, they show all the stuff before that, it just isn't in your face.
Edit: again, I'm not saying it was masterfully written, the presentation was terrible and didn't present itself cohesively at all
m_shortpants
Member
Other than the very end and a tiny flashback earlier, there is no exposition on her motives or anything. This is what puts Kuvira at the bottom of the barrel for me.
She just seemed like a power hungry tyrant. Nothing special.
I don't even understand why they tried to fight the robot. Didn't President Raiko surrender? Why didn't Kuvira just go straight to him instead of trying to kill everything. Makes no sense. All that bullshit about uniting the earth kingdom/empire is whatever, but why was she so set on getting Republic City back?
And then it devolves into her basically leveling Republic City. So much for taking it back? Makes you question her motives. And then that statment of the avatars power at the end?
What were Bryke thinking?
She just seemed like a power hungry tyrant. Nothing special.
I don't even understand why they tried to fight the robot. Didn't President Raiko surrender? Why didn't Kuvira just go straight to him instead of trying to kill everything. Makes no sense. All that bullshit about uniting the earth kingdom/empire is whatever, but why was she so set on getting Republic City back?
And then it devolves into her basically leveling Republic City. So much for taking it back? Makes you question her motives. And then that statment of the avatars power at the end?
What were Bryke thinking?
This is something that has kind of always bothered me in entertainment media.
In this case for example, Kuvira was the visionary, "The Great Uniter" the one who started everything and generally came up with the plans, but I always think... Just because she surrendered, the entire army did. Ultimately this means that they believed more in her than her ideal.
I just think of "what if" scenarios of if there were upstart officers in her army that tried forming their own factions to hold places of occupation in the Earth people territory... Casting Kuvira aside but still trying to progress her initial "dream".
... I dunno, maybe I should read more history books or something.
BKatastrophe
Member
If I'm not mistaken, the comics are handling that same scenario in regards to Ozai and his vision. The thing is it has to end that way because we aren't getting an "aftermath season," so to speak. A lot of shows that do have that are usually shows that went past the point they were supposed to.
-Buffy Season 6
-Supernatural Season 6
I'm sure there are more, but those are the two I have off the top of my head.
Ah, I didn't know that about the comics (I really gotta look into those... Damn them not being on Comixology >_<)
And you're right... I suppose a part of it is me wishing there was more coming.
JadedWriter
Member
I think Kuvira was in enough control of her regime to stamp out insurgency. The top people in charge were her, Bataar and most likely Varrick and Zhu Li. There most likely wasn't much beyond that regarding people in control. I think once she gave up it was over and probably told Suyin and Lin who to arrest in her command that would cause them any trouble. I would think she regrets what happened enough to keep it from becoming a problem. Besides her army seemed to be united by their respect for her. If anything if it wasn't united by her somebody probably would've just declared her dead and take power instead of actually looking for her.
BKatastrophe
Member
I feel you. But I'm holding out hope for those 6 minutes that got cut to be in the release. You can do a lot with 6 minutes and we have no idea what they did.
I've read some of the comics. The Promise and The Search were both pretty good. Haven't gotten to The Rift yet.
That... Is actually a very acceptable way to look at it from an in-story perspective. I like that. And true enough about being in control enough, I just think "there's always at least one", but I could go with she'd offer assistance in regards to that matter.
Absolutely. Heck, this series has already proven what can be done in just two minutes, let alone six.
BKatastrophe
Member
Well, for an ending so focused on characters as opposed to the world and the plot, it sure lacked a lot of character resolution. So many have pointed out how Mako just kind of got scrubbed out at the end.
JadedWriter
Member
I think with the way she kept the organization pretty close and the ones she did keep it close with defected any way. Below her inner circle probably nothing more than mindless drones. Usually with the "there's always one" it's usually a person still close to the head. Considering that Bataar was the second head there probably aren't that many people that had the influence or respect within the earth army to re-rally that kind of support that kuvira herself had.
Definitely not arguing that, which further emphasizes the desire to see what was cut.
There is an explanation for pretty much everything in this post except for the 'Avatar's Power' part.
That was pretty lame. I would have been okay with just an apology to Su and a surrender.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
Prove they could fool people to retroactively thinking Korrasami was a beautifully written, fleshed-out romance? Or convince people that that was a great ending?
There was stuff under the surface though even if we didn't get to see all of it, Kuvira coming from Zaofu a city of exceptionalism felt the need to rise up to the earth kingdom leadership crisis. Su not rising to the occasion was a big blow to their relationship.
So there was some character stuff, but they don't reveal the orphan stuff until the LAST second which was galling. I hope that clips episode took the place of a good story for Kuvira cause lord knows she would've been a much better character for it
I'm more focusing on how they managed to get people talking about it, regardless of whether or not it was pulled off well or not. I myself am not here to partake in that debate.
I might have to watch ATLA again, but I felt the censorship in both shows were wonky. While ATLA only had less than a handful of scenes that censorship came about, I felt the show was better written to not approach the subject with how ambiguous it was with what obviously happened to Jet, though I'm not sure how he died considering he was just hit hard in the chest with a rock I think.
In LoK, characters said 'take out' way too much for my liking in Book 3 and 4. I thought it was funny. LoK wouldn't ever say someone killed someone, but it definitely would allow characters to state if someone died.
In LoK, characters said 'take out' way too much for my liking in Book 3 and 4. I thought it was funny. LoK wouldn't ever say someone killed someone, but it definitely would allow characters to state if someone died.
BKatastrophe
Member
I think that was my biggest problem this whole season, along with a couple other things. Throughout Books 2&3 I was always hoping for an episode where they just stopped and explain things. Like Bitter Work or The Guru from ATLA. Some of my favorite episodes, and they just stop and talk about the world and how things work. My biggest issue is that, we don't find out how lavabending and spiritbending work or are even a thing in the first place. Lavabending was present in ATLA, but regardless it would've been nice to know.
So then we get Remembrances, the episode that disappoints me so. Not because it's a clip show, no no, but because of how they used it. Like, for example, I didn't mind Mako and Wu shittalking Mako's lovelife. I thought it was funny and it was a nice bit of character building. Bolin and Varrick were super entertaining. But Korra and Asami were...nothing? I mean, they use that time to have Korra mope about something she already spent some episodes moping about. Why not use that time for Korra and Asami to reflect on their relationship during the previous three Books? It would make sense after following the whole bit about Mako, and that way when we get to the ending, it would feel so much more genuine.
All it took was a small change, and everything would have been different, I feel.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
I'll take back a lot of the shit I've given Bryke of this drums up enough buzz that Nick okays them at least on some Korra comics, because that's some mastermind shit if it plays out that way
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