The N-Word Controversy: Comedian Tim Allen Questions Why He Can't Say N*****

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Count Dookkake said:
I have a hard time imagining that bigots would care what others think.
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They do because they want to get away with it. The more people who seem to share similar beliefs, or allow them to skirt the edge of polite society, the more they're empowered to be total shitheads.

What I hate is 'n-word.' Either say nigga / nigger or don't, preferably the latter. Don't think you're sneaking it in.
 
AVclub said:
I'm sorry, but in my mind there is no distinction between "nigger" and "nigga"...
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Well there is, and this is where I stop wasting time arguing with a guy who clearly hasn't a clue what he's talking about. Your Trayvon remark and "But I have black friends~~" were warning signs I really should have paid heed to.
 
AVclub said:
Double standards suck. Women call each other "bitch" all the time, but if a man says it, there's hell to pay. Black people kill each other every day, but if a Hispanic guy in Florida does it, there's outrage. The US government is constantly doing shady shit to control other countries and even its own citizens through intimidation, violence, or fear. But if someone else does it in this country or another, they are terrorists.

As a white dude with lots of black friends, I've been "given permission" to use the word "nigger" around them because, I was told, "You're one of us." I turned it around on them and said, "How about I treat you like white people then and forbid you all from saying it?" To which nobody would ever agree.
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what is this post?
 
I really don't know what the fuck that post was. "Black people kill each other everyday" Why in the flying fuck is that stupid and nonsensical argument still being brought up when people wanna talk about the Zimmerman case? It blows my mind that people think that is still a good argument for that whole trial and it's outcome.
 
BlackJace said:
What black people have they been talking to?
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akira28 said:
rules of statistical sampling. The 7 dudes he has talked to count for 70,000 other dudes .

vv: now, every time I see his posts, in my head.
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MorisUkunRasik said:
ugh I hate just thinking about what Adam had to say, dude is incredibly ignorant.

On the BCT podcast we talked about how it was momentarily offensive, funny and somewhat expected, but that was the opinion of a couple of people, it's generally poor form to try and speak for millions of people without your tongue in your cheek.
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Errr, John Salley, a black man, brought it up. It wasn't a topic of discussion until he mentioned it.
 
AVclub said:
Double standards suck. Women call each other "bitch" all the time, but if a man says it, there's hell to pay. Black people kill each other every day, but if a Hispanic guy in Florida does it, there's outrage. The US government is constantly doing shady shit to control other countries and even its own citizens through intimidation, violence, or fear. But if someone else does it in this country or another, they are terrorists.

As a white dude with lots of black friends, I've been "given permission" to use the word "nigger" around them because, I was told, "You're one of us." I turned it around on them and said, "How about I treat you like white people then and forbid you all from saying it?" To which nobody would ever agree.
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It's Nigga, my Nigga!
N----r is racist Foooooooo.
Put an R on it in front of all your black friends, they will George Foreman Dat Ass I guarantee it....
 
I don't get why white people want to say N------r so badly.

Its like they just want to say it to a black person and not worry about getting punched in the face.
 
Measley said:
I don't get why white people want to say N------r so badly.

Its like they just want to say it to a black person and not worry about getting punched in the face.
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I'll sing it to music without a thought but honestly I wouldn't even want to fling the word around even if I were black and not white.
 
Measley said:
I don't get why white people want to say N------r so badly.

Its like they just want to say it to a black person and not worry about getting punched in the face.
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Hang on, we don't all get up in the morning desperate to say it. Some of us couldn't really give a shit either way and find the whole furore a tad baffling.

The only thing I really take issue with is anyone* saying 'the N-word'. It just seems so stupid and only serves to imbue the word with power.

*When I say anyone, I'm of course referring to the Will Smith School of Racial Classification (black, white, Cuban, or Asian).
 
Measley said:
I don't get why white people want to say N------r so badly.

Its like they just want to say it to a black person and not worry about getting punched in the face.
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I don't know man, i'm white and i personally never even think about it until i read a discussion about it on Gaf.
Maybe for some white folks is kind of a fetish? Like they're alone in their bedrooms, in front of a mirror, and they whisper it repeatedly, while jacking off.
Picture Tim Allen doing that, now..
 
I was sitting in a food court in South East Sydney and overheard a heated conversation, two white dudes raucously agreeing with each other that it was ridiculous that saying it is frowned upon, like it was the worse thing that had ever happened to them.

People are just desperate for some permission, the appeal that the word has, for whatever reason, makes them want it so bad it is just odd. I hear them at hip hop concerts here, just leaning into it.

I saw Sean Price perform Barbecue Sauce, which has Pharaoh Monche literally saying 'white people please do not recite the chorus'...

Half the crowd screaming it. Smdh.

It is never a good idea, ever, for a white person to say it, hell, even if some random person gave you a 'pass'... passes don't exist. How hard is it.

As to whether or not black people should say it or not? Why on earth is that the business of people who aren't black? All a white person needs to know is that it is never a good idea, and leave it at that.
 
OttomanScribe said:
I was sitting in a food court in South East Sydney and overheard a heated conversation, two white dudes raucously agreeing with each other that it was ridiculous that saying it is frowned upon, like it was the worse thing that had ever happened to them.

People are just desperate for some permission, the appeal that the word has, for whatever reason, makes them want it so bad it is just odd. I hear them at hip hop concerts here, just leaning into it.

I saw Sean Price perform Barbecue Sauce, which has Pharaoh Monche literally saying 'white people please do not recite the chorus'...

Half the crowd screaming it. Smdh.

It is never a good idea, ever, for a white person to say it, hell, even if some random person gave you a 'pass'... passes don't exist. How hard is it.

As to whether or not black people should say it or not? Why on earth is that the business of people who aren't black? All a white person needs to know is that it is never a good idea, and leave it at that.
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I think that is always a terrible answer, regardless of the issue being discussed.
Critical thinking is never a bad thing and "all you need to know is.." is a terrible answer that is not only unsatisfactory, but also negates a critical analysis of the subject matter.

Opiate and Starfish Hero gave wonderful explanations as to why a white person (or a non-black person) shouldn't be using the word, so it's not some esoteric imperscrutable reason, that can't be explained.
 
UrbanRats said:
I think that is always a terrible answer, regardless of the issue being discussed.
Critical thinking is never a bad thing and "all you need to know is.." is a terrible answer that is not only unsatisfactory, but also negates a critical analysis of the subject matter.

Opiate and Starfish Hero gave wonderful explanations as to why a white person (or a non-black person) shouldn't be using the word, so it's not some esoteric imperscrutable reason, that can't be explained.
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You are confused about what I am saying here. I am talking about white people so keen on weighing in on debates amongst black people about the word.

Our opinion is irrelevant, that discussion isn't about us and it isn't for us. All that needs to be understood is that, for various reasons, the word is never appropriate for white people to chuck around. Other discussions around it that occur within the black community are beside the point.
 
OttomanScribe said:
You are confused about what I am saying here. I am talking about white people so keen on weighing in on debates amongst black people about the word.

Our opinion is irrelevant, that discussion isn't about us and it isn't for us. All that needs to be understood is that, for various reasons, the word is never appropriate for white people to chuck around. Other discussions around it that occur within the black community are beside the point.
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I get your point, but it's the "all you should know" phrasing that bothers me, because i like to know the reasons why something is what it is.
After all, people argue about matters they have no direct connection with daily, on GAF we discuss news stories from all over the world, i'm not even American and yet i'm very interested in American news stories (just like any news story from anywhere else).
I get your point, because it seems like white people want to poke their noses in other people's affairs, but i think in general is not a bad thing to analyze, learn about and put yourself in other people's shoes, critically think about matters outside your own circle and culture.

As a parallel, i don't think i should get to vote in the American elections, but i also think it's a good and enriching thing for me as an individual to follow the whole ordeal, to gain perspective on the world and outside my bubble, even though i'm not American and i don't (and shouldn't) have a say in it.
 
UrbanRats said:
I get your point, but it's the "all you should know" phrasing that bothers me, because i like to know the reasons why something is what it is.
After all, people argue about matters they have no direct connection with daily, on GAF we discuss news stories from all over the world, i'm not even American and yet i'm very interested in American news stories (just like any news story from anywhere else).
I get your point, because it seems like white people want to poke their noses in other people's affairs, but i think in general is not a bad thing to analyze, learn about and put yourself in other people's shoes, critically think about matters outside your own circle and culture.

As a parallel, i don't think i should get to vote in the American elections, but i also think it's a good and enriching thing for me as an individual to follow the whole ordeal, to gain perspective on the world and outside my bubble, even though i'm not American and i don't (and shouldn't) have a say in it.
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What you seem to be describing is observation, which is distinct from direct participation.

There is a tendency for people, under the guise of apparently sincere questions, to disguise other motivations. It really isn't the job of black people to have to explain to white people why using a racial epithet is inappropriate. A bit of curiosity is well and good, but it too often manifests itself as a kind of patriarchal over the shoulder weirdness. If someone tells a white person it isn't cool to use it, that should be sufficient, if the reasons aren't self-evident, then that person is beyond it.
 
OttomanScribe said:
What you seem to be describing is observation, which is distinct from direct participation.

There is a tendency for people, under the guise of apparently sincere questions, to disguise other motivations. It really isn't the job of black people to have to explain to white people why using a racial epithet is inappropriate. A bit of curiosity is well and good, but it too often manifests itself as a kind of patriarchal over the shoulder weirdness. If someone tells a white person it isn't cool to use it, that should be sufficient, if the reasons aren't self-evident, then that person is beyond it.
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All i'm saying is that an issue, any issue, can be explained more or less through a critical analysis and *that* discourse will always be better, clearer and more enriching to everybody than a dogmatic truth you simply have to abide to, without a clear reasoning.

Then there are people who have an agenda, people with secondary motivations etc etc, which is unfortunate; those people, however, are well beyond taking "just accept it" as an answer, so it's not good for them, either.
--
Also it goes without saying that everything has a time and a place, i'm not suggesting that every time the issue comes up, it has to become a debate club, of course.
I trust people to understand when it's socially appropriate to discuss something and when it isn't.
 
Jharp said:
Not sure if anyone listens to Adam Carolla's daily podcast, but today's episode had a good, if short discussion on the whole Paula Deen controversy. It's brought up by John Salley (retired NBA player), who questions why white people are so pissed off at her, and notes that black people haven't given a shit about the entire thing.
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This is false. If you are in the know, no one (black people) cares about her use of the word (though she is likely a lying anyway) compared to how her restaurant chain is managed. That's a biiiiiiiig deal. Give anyone the news and they become shocked and angered instantly.
 
As a white guy growing up in a majority black school, the word nigger/nigga does nothing to me most the time. I know there is no maliciousness when certain people say it.

Then I went to college and met some white kids who didn't grow up surrounded by the word saying it to each other. Laughing when they said it. It took a lot in me to not tell them to shut the fuck up, though I'm pretty sure I told them they had not been in the same position as me to even come close to saying it without maliciousness.

That's the problem with the word. There are too many different viewpoints of meaning now. If someone didn't know my background and I started spewing it out in raps, people would think I'm some racist idiot despite there being no negative connotations when I say it due to how I perceive the word now.

I don't doubt Tim Allen has lived the way he has or has been called someone's nigga. I doubt if anyone met me, they would think I've been called that either-- and oh buddy, have I been called it numerous times in my life. So I get where he's coming from, and why he's annoyed-- but after seeing so much maliciousness with it from ignorant people who think it's a joke or some shit...
 
googleplex said:
1. White privilege is not a racist term
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Yup, it certainly is. Because it generalizes about the white race, it is racist by definition.

googleplex said:
2. My reading comprehension is just fine. You think its unfair that black people can use the term and you can't.
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Thanks for proving my point. I never said this and in fact have said the opposite that I don't think anyone should say it, multiple times.

googleplex said:
3.Then you proceeded to make an incredibly stupid and racist statement that some how black people are OK with blacks killing black, but aren't Ok with Zimmerman.
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Never said that either. Great reading bro!

googleplex said:
4.Your post was full of shit and white privilege.

Due to the history of the term Nigga You don't get to use that word as a "white dude". Get over it!
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I don't want to use it. I don't use it. I don't want anyone to use it. You sir, are the one who's full of shit.
 
There are so many threads on this, and it's always funny to read them.

You can say whatever you want.
You should also be willing to accept responsibility for what you say.

If you want to use racial/ethnic slurs colloquially, go right ahead. You should also be willing to accept that as the historical creators of the more negative connotations/usages of these slurs, you will likely be perceived in a hostile fashion by your peers (whether or not they're of those races/ethnicities) more often than not. That's just the way it's going to be.

If you're around your non-ethnic friends using those words, whatever happens happens.
If you're deep in Harlem using those words around random people, whatever happens should also happen.
 
kirby_fox said:
As a white guy growing up in a majority black school, the word nigger/nigga does nothing to me most the time. I know there is no maliciousness when certain people say it.

Then I went to college and met some white kids who didn't grow up surrounded by the word saying it to each other. Laughing when they said it. It took a lot in me to not tell them to shut the fuck up, though I'm pretty sure I told them they had not been in the same position as me to even come close to saying it without maliciousness.

That's the problem with the word. There are too many different viewpoints of meaning now. If someone didn't know my background and I started spewing it out in raps, people would think I'm some racist idiot despite there being no negative connotations when I say it due to how I perceive the word now.

I don't doubt Tim Allen has lived the way he has or has been called someone's nigga. I doubt if anyone met me, they would think I've been called that either-- and oh buddy, have I been called it numerous times in my life. So I get where he's coming from, and why he's annoyed-- but after seeing so much maliciousness with it from ignorant people who think it's a joke or some shit...
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So what you're trying to say is you have black friends?
 
Slayven said:
We will should talk about the nigga vs nigger difference.
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I honestly perceive no difference. I know why some people perceive a difference, but I don't really feel tonal differences drop the connotative baggage. Then again, I call myself "cracker/cracka", "ofay", "whitey", "the Man", "honkey", "hillbilly", "redneck", "peckerwood", "gringo", "guizi", and other things when I speak with my friends, and they think the shit's hilarious, and so do I. Self-deprecation is fine when you're with your friends. Who am I to tell people they can't have a little fun at themselves? I don't even care that much if they say "hey cracker" to me, unless I ever perceived some anger behind it (I haven't). I don't return the favor, though, not even with the closest of my boys. I do call my wife the Dragon Lady, though, but we already had that thread.

Count Dookkake said:
Which is still unfair, but baby steps.
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I'm not sure that's something that needs to be strived toward.

MorisUkunRasik said:
Question for white people yearning for N-word usage, have you never heard a non-black person use it (perhaps in front of black people) without incident?
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Yes. In the Marines. All the time. The Hispanics and blacks would call each other niggers and wetbacks. They were cool with it. Until some dumbass cracker (not me) FNG got comfortable and started saying "hey, nigger". That dude ruined it for everyone.

Akainu said:
Didn't Richard Pryor stop using it?
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He had a number of ephanies after setting himself on fire.
 
AVclub said:
Yup, it certainly is. Because it generalizes about the white race, it is racist by definition.
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? Saying white people have brighter skin than black people is also racist?

White privilege is simply noticing the fact that, at least in some countries, being of white ethnicity is a social advantage.
 
Here in Portugal I'm never sure what the PC term for black is. The direct translation (preto) is considered racist, I think negro is the socially accepted one, but it sounds worse to me. It's absurd to the point where there are people that are afraid to say the word black refering to the color of a car for example, if there's a black guy nearby.
 
GungHo said:
I honestly perceive no difference. I know why some people perceive a difference, but I don't really feel tonal differences drop the connotative baggage. Then again, I call myself "cracker/cracka", "ofay", "whitey", "the Man", "honkey", "hillbilly", "redneck", "peckerwood", "gringo", "guizi", and other things when I speak with my friends, and they think the shit's hilarious, and so do I. Self-deprecation is fine when you're with your friends. Who am I to tell people they can't have a little fun at themselves? I don't even care that much if they say "hey cracker" to me, unless I ever perceived some anger behind it (I haven't). I don't return the favor, though, not even with the closest of my boys. I do call my wife the Dragon Lady, though, but we already had that thread.

.
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There is a difference and a history , from the comedians in the 70s like Redd Fox, Richard Pryor, and Paul Mooney. To the early days of rap and hip hop. Just because you can't see a difference doesn't mean there isn't one.
 
AVclub said:
Yup, it certainly is. Because it generalizes about the white race, it is racist by definition.
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Uhh no. White privilege is not a racist term. Next you'll be saying male privilege is sexist too?

Takuan said:
Mooney was right. White folks really won't let 'em have anything. They will take it away.
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"Everyone wants to be a nigga, but nobody wants to be a nigga."

Truer words were never spoken.
 
AVclub said:
Yup, it certainly is. Because it generalizes about the white race, it is racist by definition.
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You obviously have no understanding of what white privilege signifies. Getting defensive about the very real advantages of whites is not racism.

AVclub said:
You have no idea what you're talking about. Or, more than likely, you're trolling. This entire post is complete nonsense, from the tone, to the hostility, to the blatant generalizations. Seriously, I haven't seem flamebait like that for a while on this forum.
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I think the consensus is pretty clear that you're the poorly misinformed one. There is a difference between nigga and nigger. You simply choose to ignore the reality that a distinction exists, which is your own fault. Also, trust me when I say your black friends certainly don't need you telling them how to speak and what is or isn't right to utter. Your posts do indeed reek of white privilege and "I know better" attitude. You have to face the fact that you're potentially an outside to black culture and should not lecture them on what you think is best from your white boy perspective.
 
White privilege isnt a generalization of white people. It's a phenomenon that is based on the basic idea that white people don't see and have a genuine understanding of the benefits of how society ( in the US at least) is given to them to their advantage, especially in comparison to people of color. That's something you don't understand man. Think of it this way, Do you think a black person genuinely knows the experiences of any race especially white people. No not really. But because we and any person of color has to wear their race( or if their lighter could 1 pass for white and can truly see how people can be like in many cases in my family) we have an easier understanding of of how race truly plays a part in our world( against our own will to do so. maybe can call that black privilege lol)

Probably not the best way to explain, but its something and im sure other gaffers could do better.

Also its not like anytime a black person says nigga the weight of the word isn't on many of our minds, we don't say that in front of everyone. Starfish Hero honestly said it best in this thread I believe
 
Nigger is a racist term, nigga isn't. That is how the world works, whites need to get use to it. Whites shouldn't use the word nigga, except when it is part of lyrics in a rap song (at least that is my feelings).
 
Slayven said:
There is a difference and a history , from the comedians in the 70s like Redd Fox, Richard Pryor, and Paul Mooney. To the early days of rap and hip hop. Just because you can't see a difference doesn't mean there isn't one.
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You asked what people felt, I replied. Let me clarify: I can see how other people (specifically black people) might have a difference in their minds... even many of them. And, I've heard the Fox, Pryor, and Mooney routines. I've also heard Eddie Griffin, Katt Williams, and other comedians' who are too innumerable for me to name or remember routines that cover the same ground. I've heard less of the rap and hip hop. I've heard some of it, but I'm more of an R&B person. The only hip-hop I really enjoy is the really angry shit... probably because I used to be a headbanger and poor so I can relate to the rage.

Anyway, I'm digressing. Back on topic: I see how other people can see there's a difference, but for me, there's not much of one. If a black guy starts saying about someone who isn't himself in a negative context, I'll probably sigh a little bit on the inside and feel the guy is a bit goofy, but I'm not gonna say anything. It's his choice. As I noted above, I do this about my own folks, and I definitely admit that I'm goofy. If a white guy says it, even in the "a" form, unless it's at a KKK rally that somehow I walked in and I know I'm otherwise gonna die, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna tell him he needs to keep that shit to himself. I don't care if his biggest, blackest friends gave him a pressed platinum card that says "Nigga Authorization". If they want to stand up and defend him and say, "dude, it's really ok", then ok, I guess, but he isn't gonna be my friend anytime soon, because I'm all full up on crazy over here.

I'm happy to be called prejudiced, racist, or whatever for having that attitude, or even be told "your defense isn't needed, we'll take care of it ourselves, so back off". That's fine, but I'm not doing that on behalf of black people. I'm doing that on behalf of myself, because I don't need to hear that shit. I don't want to hear that shit. I grew up around that shit. Beyond the realm of comedy or entertainment, where it's just going to be a feature in the acts of people I like, I think it's something that I can take out of my life.
 
GungHo said:
I'm happy to be called prejudiced, racist, or whatever for having that attitude, or even be told "your defense isn't needed, we'll take care of it ourselves, so back off". That's fine, but I'm not doing that on behalf of black people. I'm doing that on behalf of myself, because I don't need to hear that shit. I don't want to hear that shit. I grew up around that shit. Beyond the realm of comedy or entertainment, where it's just going to be a feature in the acts of people I like, I think it's something that I can take out of my life.
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What the hell are you talking about?

GungHo said:
because I'm all full up on crazy over here.
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No shit...

Between you and AvClub, some really bizarre posts regarding race in here..
 
bjb said:
Between you and AvClub, some really bizarre posts regarding race in here..
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I'd appreciate if you didn't lump me in with other posters and addressed me directly. And comprehensively, for that matter.
 
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