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[See You Next Wednesday]

Yeah, that was...

Basically, he's admitting he didn't want to have his day ruined by having to look at a bloodied, pulped four-year old, while simultaneously arguing that it was perfectly within Peterson's rights as a parent to do that to his child - if that's what he did.

Nah, just don't really want to see pictures of someone else kid who was disciplined.

Actually, yeah I guess if this is abuse, then this



Is probably more relevant than what I posted earlier. But like I said, I don't know the case law or anything else building on this section.

Pretty much every state uses the terms prolonged, inhumane, cruelty or traumatic when describing when it crosses into abuse.
I don't think that would hold in a Texas court.

 

[lednerg]

Using a switch on a 4 year old? Nah, fuck that shit.

 

[jtb]

say what you will about parental discipline either way, but jesus fucking christ, the kid was four years old

i have yet to meet any four year old that needed, as in it was the only viable option (because otherwise you would surely resort to techniques other than violence first, right?), the malevolent-psychopath-in-making beaten out of him.

Nah, just don't really want to see pictures of someone else kid who was disciplined.

in support of violence as long as you don't have to see the consequences of it? you'd be perfect to tow the NFL party line!

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Based on GAF I would have been raised an orphan because my parents would have been in jail my entire childhood for the occasions I deserved the belt.

Yeah there is an obvious difference in how people were raised around here.

This was an accident for sure but I'm not shocked or anything. Seen and have had worse done... I deserved it too on retrospect

Whiel we're trading anecdotes as a means to... make a point, I guess, I don't know what: my father abused me when I was a child as a means to instill some discipline in me. He regrets having done it. I regret having it happen to me. I didn't deserve my abuse, and looking back on my childhood, the lessons I learned about how to act and how to behave myself in mixed company were best learned when the threat of violence was removed. It was wasted effort on his part, and damaging to our relationship. He wouldn't ask for me to find positive in what he did, and even if he did, I wouldn't voluntarily offer it up for his edification, because there isn't any to offer.

I don't know what you two did to "deserve" being beaten like you were, but I have a hard time believing a kid is going to learn much of anything at four years old besides "Daddy will really, really hurt me if he's mad."

Nah, just don't really want to see pictures of someone else kid who was disciplined.

It doesn't change the point I was making: the prospect of looking at an abused child was distasteful enough to you that you voluntarily chose to not look at it, while continuing to argue the discipline in question was legal and right. If his actions were so just - even though you yourself admit he probably hit his child "too hard," then why did you wait so long to look at it?

Why is the child's ability to endure that punishment stronger than your will to witness his abuse before defending his abuser?

 

[Badosh]

As a Vikings fan, I'm disgusted.

As a human, I'm disgusted.

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

Using a switch on a 4 year old? Nah, fuck that shit.

If the 6'1" 220 lbs running back used his hands to spank him instead, that might have resulted in even more injury.

It doesn't change the point I was making: the prospect of looking at an abused child was distasteful enough to you that you voluntarily chose to not look at it, while continuing to argue the discipline in question was legal and right. If his actions were so just - even though you yourself admit he probably hit his child "too hard," then why did you wait so long to look at it?

I know what bruises from a switch look like.

I'd like to see how you handle a kid beating up other kids & kicking & cussing out other adults.
Give him a stern lecture & timeout, while he laughs at you & then promptly ignores you.

Some kids just need disciple.

 

[Ptaaty]

I think he obviously went too far, but I think multigame suspension and jail time is unreasonable.

This is not Ray Rice - at all. I mean that was on video cold cocked knocked unconscious with no remorse. You and I may disagree with any corporal punishment, but I imagine this type of thing is pretty common.

I was spanked pretty severely as a child, marks days later. My parents would do this after a cool down period, really thinking it was the right thing (conservative, spareth the rod, etc). It was always using some type of "switch"...I hate to say it, like a dog you don't hit with hands. Hitting with hands is different.

 

[LQX]

If the 6'1" 220 lbs running back used his hands to spank him instead, that might have resulted in even more injury.

If he is that unaware of his own strength then he should not be handing out physical punishment to his kids.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

If the 6'1" 220 lbs running back used his hands to spank him instead, that might have resulted in even more injury.

Or maybe he could have not hit him so hard that he drew blood.

He does have the requisite motor control skills to modulate the amount of force he uses. He's a professional athlete, after all.

I'd like to see how you handle a kid beating up other kids & kicking & cussing out other adults.
Give him a stern lecture & timeout, while he laughs at you & then promptly ignores you.

Not only does this ignore the point I was making, it avoids the question I asked you.

Why is the child's ability to endure that punishment stronger than your will to witness his abuse before defending his abuser? Even IF you're intimately familiar with the marks on a four-year-olds body after getting hit with a stick by a 6'1" 220lb running back, why wouldn't you look at them first before launching into an argument that Peterson was exercising his parental rights?

Again - I've been hit with sticks, belts, open hands. My opposition to corporal punishment isn't because it never happened to me. It's because it DID, and it was largely ineffective. Not to say I kept doing the things I was punished for, but because the overriding lesson was "my father will beat me," and the cost for learning that lesson was trust, respect, and admiration for my father.

Those things were re-earned later, but it would have been better had they not been lost in the first place, especially considering the reason he threw them away was to teach me things I learned better via other methods. I absolutely understand WHY he did what he did. I also understand it was a mistake on his part. The two understandings aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Ptaaty]

I think the crux of this whole thing is depending on your upbringing and background, corporal punishment is understandable. It can be a little bit of a fine line on what is OK or not which is why most just don't do it all now.

However, closed fist knockouts are not OK anywhere in any domestic situation.

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

I think the crux of this whole thing is depending on your upbringing and background, corporal punishment is understandable. It can be a little bit of a fine line on what is OK or not which is why most just don't do it all now.

However, closed fist knockouts are not OK anywhere in any domestic situation.

Yeah, hitting a kid with a fist or generally any part on the face or upper body is abuse.
Spanking or using a paddle etc.. on the buttock area has never been considered abuse.

 

[kneePat]

I think the crux of this whole thing is depending on your upbringing and background, corporal punishment is understandable. It can be a little bit of a fine line on what is OK or not which is why most just don't do it all now.

However, closed fist knockouts are not OK anywhere in any domestic situation.

But the distinction in and of itself is absurd. Who cares how it happens? Why are you placing emphasis on something that is ultimately arbitrary? How does a 4 year old make this connection?

All I'm saying is we owe it to ourselves to improve child-rearing regardless of whether you were abused or disciplined as a child. Let's not end the conversation and impede advancement due to your personal upbringing. Ask the questions regarding the efficacy of violence or 'corporal punishment' on children. You make the distinction but have no proof that a 4 year old is better served in some manner with this.

 

[ostrichKing]

I think the crux of this whole thing is depending on your upbringing and background, corporal punishment is understandable. It can be a little bit of a fine line on what is OK or not which is why most just don't do it all now.

However, closed fist knockouts are not OK anywhere in any domestic situation.

Or most don't do it because there are better ways to handle situations than physical violence. This is a 4 year old....

 

[Wanda/Wander]

This is just the tip of the shitberg. The NFL is going to have to decide wether or not to ban this dude. They have to decide if child abuse is as bad as spousal abuse.

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

You make the distinction but have no proof that a 4 year old is better served in some manner with this.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who will testify that them being disciplined when they were kids lead them to be good.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

you were abused/disciplined as a child.

Really?

 

[kneePat]

This is just the tip of shitberg. The NFL is going to have to decide wether or not to ban this dude. They have to decide if child abuse is as bad spousal abuse.

Worse, your wife can leave your ass.

Really?

Sorry, should be an or

 

[ostrichKing]

I'm sure there are a lot of people who will testify that them being disciplined when they were kids lead them to be good.

There are battered wives that say the same...that they "deserved" and "provoked" it. This kid was 4...christ...

 

[ZedIndyLil]

Wow, this is a raw thread. All I know is that, from the evidence that's out there, what AP did was wrong. I don't know if he deserves jail time or to have his career ended, but I really hope, for his sake and that of his family, he reflects on this and reconsiders how he's going to approach being a dad.

 

[Eddie Griffin]

Yeah, hitting a kid with a fist or generally any part on the face or upper body is abuse.
Spanking or using a paddle etc.. on the buttock area has never been considered abuse.

Pretty sure the latter has been disallowed for awhile.

 

[lednerg]

I know what bruises from a switch look like.

I'd like to see how you handle a kid beating up other kids & kicking & cussing out other adults.
Give him a stern lecture & timeout, while he laughs at you & then promptly ignores you.

Some kids just need disciple.

Take their toys away. Ground 'em. Whatever, it's not rocket science.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who will testify that them being disciplined when they were kids lead them to be good.

Most people are good by default anyway. It doesn't matter if they were hit by their parents. Correlation =/= causation.

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

There are battered wives that say the same...that they "deserved" and "provoked" it. This kid was 4...christ...

I think there is a difference between a grown adult & an unruly child.

 

[Ptaaty]

Pretty sure the latter has been disallowed for awhile.

I think that Peterson went too far, but I think the assertion that all corporal punishment is not allowed is too far as well.

Reading in more detail, he did this after trying time out and this kid was just out of control. A a spanking was probably warranted. I was not from a switch culture, but I would think that a tree branch stripped of leaves is going to leave some surface cuts.

I think that folks saying "NFL needs to decide if child abuse is as bad as spouse abuse" and paralleling Ray Rice are wrong. This is different.

 

[kneePat]

I think there is a difference between a grown adult & an unruly child.

Yea, an unruly child is honest.

 

[ostrichKing]

I think there is a difference between a grown adult & an unruly child.

Yes..there is...

 

[PassiveObserver]

Beat him until he is Purple Jesus.

 

[jtb]

I think there is a difference between a grown adult & an unruly child.

a grown adult has fully developed physical and mental capacities.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I think there is a difference between a grown adult & an unruly child.

usually about 10-15 years of accumulated experiences and cognitive ability.

If I tell a little kid that I've just hit that they're better off due to my hitting them, I'm sure that without any frame of reference, and considering the inherent trust they have in their parental figures, they'd be inclined to believe it, too. This thread seems to bear that out in some instances.

Most four year olds still believe Santa is real. They believe it because they're told that's where the presents under their tree come from.

Most four year olds will believe they deserved their beating if they're told they deserved it by the parents who hit them.

The lies are similar, one's just easier to disprove with time.

 

[kneePat]

usually about 10-15 years of accumulated experiences and cognitive ability.

If I tell a little kid that I've just hit that they're better off due to my hitting them, I'm sure that without any frame of reference, and considering the inherent trust they have in their parental figures, they'd be inclined to believe it, too. This thread seems to bear that out in some instances.

Most four year olds still believe Santa is real. They believe it because they're told that's where the presents under their tree come from.

Most four year olds will believe they deserved their beating if they're told they deserved it by the parents who hit them.

The lies are similar, one's just easier to disprove with time.

Exactly. And this is so true. Please don't beat these beautiful people like this simply out of convenience. It is important to understand the consequences of when and how you discipline, and that is essentially my point. It will go a long way for future generations.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Corporal punishment is always weird. People love to brag about how bad they got beat by their parents. That is so damn weird, it's like reading a thread on women bragging about how bad their husbands beat them when they didn't listen.

 

[ostrichKing]

Exactly. And this is so true. Please don't beat these beautiful people like this simply out of convenience. It is important to understand the consequences of when and how you discipline, and that is essentially my point. It will go a long way for future generations.

And the scientific research continues to mount that corporal punishment is TERRIBLE for kids...recent post about it: http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/health/effects-spanking-brain/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Whiel we're trading anecdotes as a means to... make a point, I guess, I don't know what: my father abused me when I was a child as a means to instill some discipline in me. He regrets having done it. I regret having it happen to me. I didn't deserve my abuse, and looking back on my childhood, the lessons I learned about how to act and how to behave myself in mixed company were best learned when the threat of violence was removed. It was wasted effort on his part, and damaging to our relationship. He wouldn't ask for me to find positive in what he did, and even if he did, I wouldn't voluntarily offer it up for his edification, because there isn't any to offer.

I don't know what you two did to "deserve" being beaten like you were, but I have a hard time believing a kid is going to learn much of anything at four years old besides "Daddy will really, really hurt me if he's mad."



It doesn't change the point I was making: the prospect of looking at an abused child was distasteful enough to you that you voluntarily chose to not look at it, while continuing to argue the discipline in question was legal and right. If his actions were so just - even though you yourself admit he probably hit his child "too hard," then why did you wait so long to look at it?

Why is the child's ability to endure that punishment stronger than your will to witness his abuse before defending his abuser?

I was pretty damn young but i got spanked or yelled at pretty harshly for dropping dishes... and I think that was it...

 

[kneePat]

I was pretty damn young but i got spanked or yelled at pretty harshly for dropping dishes... and I think that was it...

How old were you? This is sad. I remember getting spanked for spilling milk when I was 11.

Would it be okay to beat your spouse if they did this? Obviously it's never okay. There is a serious disconnect in our logic.

 

[Banana Aeon]

How old were you? This is sad, I remember getting spanked for spilling milk when I was 11.

Would it be okay to beat your spouse if they did this? Obviously it's never okay. There is a serious disconnect in our logic.

I used to get whooped when I was a child. There was no abuse. I have a great relationship with my parents. There is nothing sour.

Spanking and beating are too different things. I was never beat by my parents. I never feared my parents. Child abuse and punishment for an action are different things.

Of course, people are raised differently, so I can't inject on this properly. Based on my background, there is nothing wrong with this. Based on yours, I can see your issue.

 

[ostrichKing]

The scientific facts are that there is no research that spanking or any other form of corporal punishment is beneficial for a child, and there is mounting evidence that even spankings are very harmful for kids and even hurt brain development. I'm not saying all parents that spank their kids are bad parents...but the evidence is mounting that it's not the best way to discipline...

 

[ostrichKing]

I used to get whooped when I was a child. There was no abuse. I have a great relationship with my parents. There is nothing sour.

Spanking and beating are too different things. I was never beat by my parents. I never feared my parents. Child abuse and punishment for an action are different things.

Of course, people are raised differently, so I can't inject on this properly. Based on my background, there is nothing wrong with this. Based on yours, I can see your issue.

I was spanked very badly as a child a few times, no beatings, and my mom to this day apologizes for it. We too have a wonderful relationship now. But, she has pleaded with me to never do what she did to a child, and I never will. I have a 2 and a half year old and I've never EVER come close to reaching a point where I would consider using physical violence against her.

 

[kneePat]

I used to get whooped when I was a child. There was no abuse. I have a great relationship with my parents. There is nothing sour.

Spanking and beating are too different things. I was never beat by my parents. I never feared my parents. Child abuse and punishment for an action are different things.

Of course, people are raised differently, so I can't inject on this properly. Based on my background, there is nothing wrong with this. Based on yours, I can see your issue.

I have a great relationship with my parents and do not at all feel abused. But I'm saying that the way our parents are raised is fundamental in the way they raise their children, just as it was for them and their parents. Such that, if change were ever to be implemented for the better it would to have to be a concerted effort inserted into our own belief systems. That is, a flat out rejection of how it has been done historically. i.e. If your parents used a 'switch' on you, you used a switch on your children (remove the it worked for me, it will work for them logic). If in the future we desire parenting to be a more evolved method of upbringing than we need to change the way our children are raised and not rely on what we are comfortable with.

Back on topic: Adrian Peterson is such a public figure and this has kind of devolved but essentially we need to replace the tactics used to raise children with more proven and effective ones. Particularly, when there exist people who are okay with AP's disciplinary methods. I'm not saying these people are wrong or immoral, but child abuse is often destructive, and IMO it is evident here. AP was beat as a child, and now has done something similar to his own. He also says he was beat with an extension cord as a child and he would never use such a device on his own children. That is absolute evidence that change is possible.

 

[Officerrob]

Yea, an unruly child is honest.

They are?

 

[Trey]

Corporal punishment is always weird. People love to brag about how bad they got beat by their parents. That is so damn weird, it's like reading a thread on women bragging about how bad their husbands beat them when they didn't listen.

It's like when people brag about how obtuse and horrible their professors were, or how tough their childhood was because they had to adjust rabbit ears to get good reception.

People look back on negatives as obstacles they've overcome.

 

[ostrichKing]

Has this been posted?
"According to police reports, the child, however, had a slightly different story, telling authorities that “Daddy Peterson hit me on my face.” The child also expressed worry that Peterson would punch him in the face if the child reported the incident to authorities. He also said that he had been hit by a belt and that “there are a lot of belts in Daddy’s closet.” He added that Peterson put leaves in his mouth when he was being hit with the switch while his pants were down. The child told his mother that Peterson “likes belts and switches” and “has a whooping room.”

from: http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/12/exclusive-details-on-adrian-peterson-indictment-charges/

 

[kneePat]

Has this been posted?
"According to police reports, the child, however, had a slightly different story, telling authorities that “Daddy Peterson hit me on my face.” The child also expressed worry that Peterson would punch him in the face if the child reported the incident to authorities. He also said that he had been hit by a belt and that “there are a lot of belts in Daddy’s closet.” He added that Peterson put leaves in his mouth when he was being hit with the switch while his pants were down. The child told his mother that Peterson “likes belts and switches” and “has a whooping room.”

from: http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/12/exclusive-details-on-adrian-peterson-indictment-charges/

Before anyone says anything... If your 4 year old is lying/scared/being disingenuous about you, I'm sorry... but you done fucked up.

 

[rokkerkory]

Glad he isnt on my fantasy roster this week

 

[demolitio]

Now now... it's getting reduced. Josh Gordon - that dreaded pot smoker now car salesman - is only going to get suspended for 10 games. Not 16. See, that's much better! He'll be back by Week 12 when the Browns are already eliminated from playoff contention.

Which still makes no sense just because this happened in 2013. It should still be repealed given how weak the results were based on the old limits considering he passed one and failed another.

I think he'll come down on Peterson just because of the past week, but I find it absurd how Gordon was treated worse than Rice originally for something so stupid when the results were mixed and he said he's been tested like 70 times or so and never failed any other one. The worst part is the 10 game suspension would keep him away until his next hearing over a supposed DUI I believe. Gordon isn't a role model obviously, but they treated him far worse than Rice initially and it's pretty sad that the marijuana limits were so low to begin with compared to other sports making second-hand smoke actually a possibility. The NFL had it at 15 while most sports are at 50 and The Olympics are at 150.

There's just way too much subjectivity in the NFL and it all seems to come down to Goodell and other executives' preferences instead of set punishments for different rules.

This sums up the NFL's record on abuse and other crimes pretty well compared to drug-related punishments: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nfl-domestic-violence-policy-suspensions/

Also interesting: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-rate-of-domestic-violence-arrests-among-nfl-players/

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Physical discipline is a sensitive topic. I find that what people find appropriate and inappropriate is both a function of their environment and their upbringing. I don't think there is any general rule for whether open hand, closed hand ect ect is bad, okay or w/e. I think it's in the parents judgement to figure out what is appropriate for them to discipline their child with within reason. This kid though, having some actual lacerations is not a good sign. In the same notion, I'm personally not going to say that I think that coddling children and trying to be their friend the way I see being suggested (not in this thread, just just general consensus for people I've encountered) is the best method. I dunno though, I may see it differently when I have kids.

 

[Amon37]

I'd like to see how you handle a kid beating up other kids & kicking & cussing out other adults.
Give him a stern lecture & timeout, while he laughs at you & then promptly ignores you.

Some kids just need disciple.

The kids is fucking 4 years old! If a 4 year old is beating kids up and swearing at adults that's some horrible parenting and the parents should turn the switch on themselves

 

[Joe]

 

[JABEE]

Corporal punishment doesn't work in any other walk of life. Nobody whips their employees if they fuck up. A professor can't slap his student for not paying attention during a college lecture. But it's somehow okay for kids. Never got that. It always struck me as an archaic method of punishment rooted in ignorance.

Because children have been treated like disposable pieces of shit for centuries. Listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History on the treatment of children throughout modern civilization. It wasn't until relatively recently that parents were barred from slaving their children out working in coal mines and hard, extremely dangerous jobs to support their family.

Children were forced to be the chimney sweep. Some man would stuff naked children up the chimney and drag their naked bodies against the hard walls of the chimney cleaning out the soot and debris that stuck to the walls of the chimney.

People still hit children, because children are seen as sub-human. You will see the same logic from battered wives that you see from adults trying to justify the abuse they received. "I deserved to be spanked, because I was a real shit head." Both relationships often are born out of dependency. Both often exist in a relationship where a stronger person beats up on a weaker individual.

You will not often see public, majority of people speak out for the spanking/beating of small animals like dogs in the name of discipline. That practice has for the most part been set aside as an example of humanity's barbarism. Yet, you will still see people support hitting children for reasons like "that's what my parents or grandparents did and I deserved it." There are entire generations of people suffering from the same feelings that battered spouses suffer through, yet we normalize this as part of our culture.

It's not about being politically correct. You wouldn't hit a dog, you wouldn't hit a co-worker, you wouldn't hit your mother, you wouldn't hit your wife, yet hitting children is fine despite research saying that it doesn't work. This is without considering whether it would be humane if it worked at all. I think children deserve to be treated with the same respect that all humans deserve no matter what their age, gender, race, or health situation.

 

[ostrichKing]

I'd like to see how you handle a kid beating up other kids & kicking & cussing out other adults.
Give him a stern lecture & timeout, while he laughs at you & then promptly ignores you.

Some kids just need disciple.

Where are you getting that this 4 year old is beating up other kids, kicking and cussing out adults? According to Peterson, he pushed a kid off of a game he wanted to play. Either way, I am troubled that you feel violence is the only answer...when study after study shows this does nothing but negatively affect children...

 

[ostrichKing]

Because children have been treated like disposable pieces of shit for centuries. Listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History on the treatment of children throughout modern civilization. It wasn't until relatively recently that parents were barred from slaving their children out working in coal mines and hard, extremely dangerous jobs to support their family.

Children were forced to be the chimney sweep. Some man would stuff naked children up the chimney and drag their naked bodies against the hard walls of the chimney cleaning out the soot and debris that stuck to the walls of the chimney.

People still hit children, because children are seen as sub-human. You will see the same logic from battered wives that you see from adults trying to justify the abuse they received. "I deserved to be spanked, because I was a real shit head." Both relationships often are born out of dependency. Both often exist in a relationship where a stronger person beats up on a weaker individual.

You will not often see public, majority of people speak out for the spanking/beating of small animals like dogs in the name of discipline. That practice has for the most part been set aside as an example of humanities barbarism. Yet, you will still see people support hitting children for reasons like "that's what my parents or grandparents did and I deserved it." There are entire generations of people suffering from the same feelings that battered spouses suffer through, yet we normalize this as part of our culture.

It's not about being politically correct. You wouldn't hit a dog, you wouldn't hit a co-worker, you wouldn't hit your mother, you wouldn't hit your wife, yet hitting children is fine despite research saying that it doesn't work. This is without considering whether it would be humane if it worked at all. I think children deserve to be treated with the same respect that all humans deserve no matter what their age, gender, race, or health situation.

Very well said!

 

[xbhaskarx]

Just needs Ben "cause they rapin' everybody out here" Roethlisberger