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[Cornballer]

- Onion A|V Club review
- Sepinwall's review

- Promo for next week's episode (please spoiler tag any discussion)

 

[Askherserenity]

I need the next episode. Now.

No theories as to what happened at the end there?

 

[Cake Boss]

I need the next episode. Now.

No theories as to what happened at the end there?

Demogorgons flickering the lights again.

 

[TimeEffect]

He doesn't have boss man status though. He's literally shitting out smuggled drugs because he's Freddy's bitch right now. the TV thing with the other inmates seemed like a test of Freddy's "protection", a test in which he had nothing to lose. There were guards in that scene so at worst he would have just taken a couple punches or two.

I just cant buy that.

Im still waiting for Freddie to reveal his true colours to him, but even little things like Naz telling that boy "what the fuck are u looking at" are unbelievable to me.

 

[RaidenZR]

a lot of things in the past 2-3 episodes have felt very clumsy and unsubtle to me, in ways that make certain moments feel silly and comical

I just cant buy that.

Im still waiting for Freddie to reveal his true colours to him, but even little things like Naz telling that boy "what the fuck are u looking at" are unbelievable to me.

I think it really depends on how much time has elapsed with Naz in prison, and I haven't paid THAT close attention to know if that is even determinable from what is depicted.

Either way, even if you guys feel this way, I think the calling something unsubtle is not synonymous with clumsy. Those words mean different things to me.

 

[Helmholtz]

Another great episode. I was kind of hoping that Freddie actually only wanted Nas for his intelligence, but nope.
The ending was so damn tense.

 

[Dalek]

Another amazing episode.

The prison scenes make me so anxious and that ending scene with Stone in that alleyway was nuts-why would even do that? What was he expecting to happen?

 

[holygeesus]

Do the defence team have access to the CCTV footage? Would seem easy enough to prove that Naz conversed with both Trevor and 'Duane' on the night, if so, as the CCTV pointed straight at her house didn't it?

 

[Cornballer]

- Medium: Anatomy of a Scene: The Map

 

[Reeks]

a lot of things in the past 2-3 episodes have felt very clumsy and unsubtle to me, in ways that make certain moments feel silly and comical

for example the lingering shots of the lady pulling the bags out, followed by the handoff and Naz swallowing them mid-conversation with his lawyers. like, i get that he doesn't really have any other option there and has to swallow them right away, but what should have been a tense moment just came off as completely unintentionally hilarious to me. John's comment about it saved that scene in the end though, would have bugged me a lot more if he hadn't said anything. same with the picture of the niece in last week's episode, where what the show seems to be trying to convey isn't actually working for me

it's still great, easily the best drama HBO has aired since Show Me a Hero, but little on-the-nose things like that are bothering me a bit

I feel like that last episode came out of nowhere? Everything I liked about the show seemed to fall apart in bizzareness-- not in a good way. It turned into everything it was better than. I loved that it was subtle and tense and understated with small punctuations of quirkiness. Now it's a right shit show sensational drama that's all over the place.

Ohh and the other weird ass shot was with the ME...you know, the corpse penis shot? What in the fuck? I don't know. I think I'm off of it, which sucks because I absolutely loved the first 4 episodes.

 

[jmood88]

I just cant buy that.

Im still waiting for Freddie to reveal his true colours to him, but even little things like Naz telling that boy "what the fuck are u looking at" are unbelievable to me.

I don't see what's hard to buy. Naz is a guy who has been treated like a nobody for much of his life (which we saw in the beginning with the basketball players) and he finally has someone backing him up that everyone is afraid of, so he showed out a little bit.

 

[Sanjuro]

Wait, people aren't buying Naz having a power trip?

The dude who stole his father's cab hang out with cool kids?

The dude who abandoned that plan in order to bang some random hot girl?

 

[shoreu]

What drug did naz take that the girl didn't

 

[dave is ok]

What drug did naz take that the girl didn't

Adderall

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

The pacing of this show is strange. I feel like each episode is written/directed by completely different people.

It's good, but not great. Something about it doesn't convince me 100%.

The pilot was definitely the highlight, I thought it was excellent.

 

[shadow_shogun]

Couldn't take it anymore, I decided to watch the original British version just to see how it this shows ends. Not as great as the American version but there's hardly any filler in this with just 5 (1 hour) episodes.

 

[Helmholtz]

The pacing of this show is strange. I feel like each episode is written/directed by completely different people.

It's good, but not great. Something about it doesn't convince me 100%.

The pilot was definitely the highlight, I thought it was excellent.

Yeah pilot was the highlight for me so far too. I thought it was something special, the way it was directed and paced.
The follow up episodes have been solid, they just don't feel quite as great.

 

[shadow_shogun]

Damn... now I regret binging through the British version. I hope to God they

Spoiler

change up the killer

in this one.

 

[Insane Metal]

This episode was the best since the pilot. This is getting nerve wrecking.

 

[Korey]

Five episodes in and basically zero movement in the plot.

Stone's feet get more airtime than the murder case the show is supposedly about.

Not saying this show is garbage but it's definitely not anything special.

 

[RastaMentality]

Naz was a push over his entire life. Him suddenly getting that much power and acting like this makes sense.

 

[Deku Tree]

Duane Reade didn't do it IMO. I think it was a crime of passion by someone who knew her, possibly a love or inheritance motive. They haven't explored that family argument at the funeral at all yet.

Five episodes in and basically zero movement in the plot.

Stone's feet get more airtime than the murder case the show is supposedly about.

Not saying this show is garbage but it's definitely not anything special.

The show is about the characters not who did it. It has the deepest look at characters and the ugliness of the criminal justice system since the Wire. I'm getting the same feels from this show as I did watching the wire.

 

[CharminUltra]

The show is about the characters not who did it. It has the deepest look at characters and the ugliness of the criminal justice system since the Wire. I'm getting the same feels from this show as I did watching the wire.

I haven't seen the last episode yet, so my opinion might change. That said, I totally agree with this. I am pleasantly surprised that the show is taking a deeper look at the rotting system rather than simply becoming yet another murder mystery.

 

[ZOONAMI]

I just cant buy that.

Im still waiting for Freddie to reveal his true colours to him, but even little things like Naz telling that boy "what the fuck are u looking at" are unbelievable to me.

Eh he told the dudes to fuck off that got in his cab. I would say the same shit to the dude who should be swallowing his own mom's vag juice. That kid getting protection from Freddie should not have involved naz.

The story arc I think is pretty clear here. I think it will be that Naz in fact did do it, surpressed rage coming out in a black out, etc.

Blacked out people do crazy shit. Box will be right from the get go - you got fucked up, and did some fucked up shit. Naz just doesn't remember it. That shit doesn't fly in court, even though it probably should. Tox screens should actaully mean something as a defense, but for whatever reason, they don't. You were completely fucked up and we have the tox report backing that up, but we don't believe you don't remember anything? If you can prove you don't remember anything, that is a defense as you are literally unconscious, it's just hard to prove. But the onus should be on the prosecution to prove someone was in fact conscious according to the burden of proof, but that's not how it plays out. The amount of shit in his system I think most toxicologists would support that he may have been blacked out, and I don't see how you could definitively proove he wasn't.

Pretty much everyone does time for shit they did with alcohol intoxication levels that would scientically support unconsciousness. That's not how it should fly in my opinion. Not that they should get a free pass, but extreme probation, rehab, and a liftime of alchol/drug screen monitoring is a better fit for such situations that years to life sentences of hard time.

 

[KingKong]

Eh he told the dudes to fuck off that got in his cab. I would say the same shit to the dude who should be swallowing his own mom's vag juice. That kid getting protection from Freddie should not have involved naz.

The story arc I think is pretty clear here. I think it will be that Naz in fact did do it, surpressed rage coming out in a black out, etc.

Blacked out people do crazy shit. Box will be right from the get go - you got fucked up, and did some fucked up shit. Naz just doesn't remember it. That shit doesn't fly in court, even though it probably should. Tox screens should actaully mean something as a defense, but for whatever reason, they don't. You were completely fucked up and we have the tox report backing that up, but we don't believe you don't remember anything? If you can prove you don't remember anything, that is a defense as you are literally unconscious, it's just hard to prove. But the onus should be on the prosecution to prove someone was in fact conscious according to the burden of proof, but that's not how it plays out. The amount of shit in his system I think most toxicologists would support that he may have been blacked out, and I don't see how you could definitively proove he wasn't.

Pretty much everyone does time for shit they did with alcohol intoxication levels that would scientically support unconsciousness. That's not how it should fly in my opinion. Not that they should get a free pass, but extreme probation, rehab, and a liftime of alchol/drug screen monitoring is a better fit for such situations that years to life sentences of hard time.

I feel like a big problem is how little blood he had on him, despite her being stabbed 21 times. Of course he could have cleaned himself up or something, but I assume we're meant to see everything that he remembers

 

[ZOONAMI]

I feel like a big problem is how little blood he had on him, despite her being stabbed 21 times. Of course he could have cleaned himself up or something, but I assume we're meant to see everything that he remembers

Good point, and I just had the same thought.

This lack of forensic evidence should actually be the main point of defense that exonerates him, although yes I supposed prosecution can just say he had a change of clothes and somehow dumped what he was wearing when he did it, but I think video surveillance would disprove that. Or I guess you could say he must have had plastic bags on over his clothes or something. Either way it brings in a lot of doubt to a jury if there is no blood on his clothes and no plastic bags found to support that theory.

If this doesn't come up in the show, it's a major plot hole / failure of the writers.

There either needs to be evidence of blood in andrea's shower or a change clothes/plastic bag scenario for any of this to make any sense. It makes 0 sense that box hasn't covered this already. Where is the blood cleanup as Naz was not bloody outside of his hand at all. I believe he got her blood on his neck from her cut hand, and that was gone, so that is evidence he took a shower, so then hes fucked because they will find blood in the shower.

 

[Korey]

Duane Reade didn't do it IMO. I think it was a crime of passion by someone who knew her, possibly a love or inheritance motive. They haven't explored that family argument at the funeral at all yet.



The show is about the characters not who did it. It has the deepest look at characters and the ugliness of the criminal justice system since the Wire. I'm getting the same feels from this show as I did watching the wire.

But The Wire was way more... compelling?

This show just seems like a whole bunch of nothing. Feels empty, or like there's no real theme connecting everything.

 

[ZOONAMI]

If it isn't Naz it's either Duane Reade, the hearse driver, who I hope comes up through surveillance footage review, or potenitally the funeral guy who was all pissed. Or potentially her step dad if there's maybe some weird sex stuff going on between them.

Ideally all this should come up before someone is charged, along with blood evidence on Naz or in Andrea's shower, or evidence of him changing / something to prevent himself to get caked in blood, which is why this investigation from the police side is fucked, along with breaking the chain of evidence. The police comepletely missing the open back gate is also completly fucked, as it opens the door to virtually anyone being the perp. Not nearly enough background police work was done to determine if it was someone who knew her that did this, given there is eyewitness testimony that Naz left through the front door.

Most likely Naz will be charged with grand theft, with his own father's cooperation, which is a nail in the coffin, so to speak, for the prosecution, but sadly it seems like his father isn't smart enough to understand that.

All of this should make for a relatively solid defense case, which I hope is covered over the next several episodes. Otherwise, yeah, HBO writers can get fucked.

Ultimately if it is revealed that Naz is in fact innocent but is still convicted, this feels like it may end up turning out to be a social commentary on our criminal justice system, which is honestly fine by me. Depressing, but probably better than a happy ending. I would think it is at least a very appealable case based on the chain of evidence being broken alone, but it means an innocent man locked up for years because of over eager police and prosecutors to work quickly to get a conviction for the murder of a young white person living in an affluent part of NYC. Which does seem like a fairly realistic scenario

 

[DietRob]

This is a great mini series but for Christ sake I'm am SO FUCKING DONE with the eczema thing. What the fuck?! I don't see how it adds anything to the show. Episode after episode why do we have to spend so much time with these fucking feet? What can possibly be the point? I had to pause in the middle of episode 5 that I'm watching right now to rant.

It bothers me that much. I'm not sure why I'm letting it bother me this much but here I am pausing the show. It's that distracting.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

This is a great mini series but for Christ sake I'm am SO FUCKING DONE with the eczema thing. What the fuck?! I don't see how it adds anything to the show. Episode after episode why do we have to spend so much time with these fucking feet? What can possibly be the point? I had to pause in the middle of episode 5 that I'm watching right now to rant.

It bothers me that much. I'm not sure why I'm letting it bother me this much but here I am pausing the show. It's that distracting.

Along with the post above showing the parallels between his and Nas's situations, it kind of gives weight to his willingness to do incredibly dangerous and foolish things (like confronting drug dealers and other criminals in their places of business). His legal life is the only thing he currently has control over, everything else is a complete mess. The viagra/bar scene went a long way to show he has very little control over his own happiness, as the "feet thing" has sucked away one of the few things he enjoys. So he goes full steam ahead into the grimy parts of his work.

Edit: if the show has a failing it's that there is no real reason (yet) to think there is any light at the end of the tunnel. Every episode has gone from worse to worse. That might be the intention, but I don't think people want to watch a show about a guy who looks obviously guilty turn out to be obviously guilty. Some of the these side threads are going to have to start paying off or the show will continue to seem like a kick the dog exercise.

 

[DietRob]

Along with the post above showing the parallels between his and Nas's situations, it kind of gives weight to his willingness to do incredibly dangerous and foolish things (like confronting drug dealers and other criminals in their places of business). His legal life is the only thing he currently has control over, everything else is a complete mess. The viagra/bar scene went a long way to show he has very little control over his own happiness, as the "feet thing" has sucked away one of the few things he enjoys. So he goes full steam ahead into the grimy parts of his work.

Thanks for sharing your POV on the feet. I didnt think about the parallels that you mentioned but I'm willing to accept it. It makes a little more sense to me now but I do feel like there has been more emphasis on the feet than needed. I'll go back to enjoying my recording now.

Edit - is it known how many episodes in total there will be?

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

Along with the post above showing the parallels between his and Nas's situations, it kind of gives weight to his willingness to do incredibly dangerous and foolish things (like confronting drug dealers and other criminals in their places of business). His legal life is the only thing he currently has control over, everything else is a complete mess. The viagra/bar scene went a long way to show he has very little control over his own happiness, as the "feet thing" has sucked away one of the few things he enjoys. So he goes full steam ahead into the grimy parts of his work.

Well I think there are more compelling ways to show this. True detective wouldn't have been as interesting if Rust's detachment from society was symbolically portrayed with itchy feet. Everything about it, down to that AA-like meeting, is the type of thing I'd expect to see on Twin Peaks or Fargo, where supernatural/bizarre events occur.

 

[JABEE]

Yeah pilot was the highlight for me so far too. I thought it was something special, the way it was directed and paced.
The follow up episodes have been solid, they just don't feel quite as great.

Some of the shots are beautiful on this show. The last scene with John Turturro looked great.

Also, I don't think the show is saying that prison makes good people evil. It brings out human qualities that are otherwise untapped. It is about survival. You are in a cage and surrounded by unchecked, un-policed violence and extortion. If you aren't guilty, you may be hit with something before you even go to trial.

 

[statuez]

Episode 1 and 4 were top notch. Last episode felt a little off. Still a great show nonetheless.

 

[Dosia]

Thanks for sharing your POV on the feet. I didnt think about the parallels that you mentioned but I'm willing to accept it. It makes a little more sense to me now but I do feel like there has been more emphasis on the feet than needed. I'll go back to enjoying my recording now.

Edit - is it known how many episodes in total there will be?

8 eps

 

[pj]

Nothing in this show feels grounded. It fails as a look inside our justice system because everything is so exaggerated and unrelateable. Nobody wakes up covered in a dead girl's blood, Rikers isn't Oz, you don't get multiple saviors dropped from the heavens, you don't completely change as a person in a couple weeks.

Why does Naz go from meek kid to drug mule who beats people half to death?
Why does Stone, a joke of a lawyer who we are told simply pleas out hookers for $250 a case, suddenly become an amazing detective who pushes around drug dealers and chases strangers into god knows where?
Why does the DA sound like she's on muscle relaxers and why is she so hamfistedly playing the "it's convictions that matter, not justice" character?
Why the stupid drama with the cab? If they would return it shortly after filing charges, why wouldn't the father agree to it and then drop them later? If it wouldn't be until after a trial, which would take months or years, how is it really help the other two guys?

I just can't buy any of it, and it's not interesting enough or well written enough for me to suspend my disbelief.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Nothing in this show feels grounded. It fails as a look inside our justice system because everything is so exaggerated and unrelateable. Nobody wakes up covered in a dead girl's blood, Rikers isn't Oz, you don't get multiple saviors dropped from the heavens, you don't completely change as a person in a couple weeks.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/0...or-3-years-without-trial-commits-suicide.html

Rikers is fucking hell on earth if you're just a skinny kid with no street cred.

Why does Naz go from meek kid to drug mule who beats people half to death?

Do these people seem like the kind of people you say "nah, I'm good" to? You don't think he understands the consequences of that? And the guy he beat half to death mocked him after giving him 3rd degree burns. Nas quickly learns this episode that these guys are not his friends. He's a commodity, like everything else, he's only as good as what they can get from him. He can tell them to fuck off, and then he's on his own again.

Why does Stone, a joke of a lawyer who we are told simply pleas out hookers for $250 a case, suddenly become an amazing detective who pushes around drug dealers and chases strangers into god knows where?

He gets a lucky break, and then clearly pushes his luck beyond the point of sanity. I believe that we're supposed to be shocked by his boldness and utter stupidity when he actually goes down the alley. Like what, he's going to beat a confession out if this guy? He's desperate because this trial is the only thing he has going on in his shitty life.

Why does the DA sound like she's on muscle relaxers and why is she so hamfistedly playing the "it's convictions that matter, not justice" character?

Welcome to big city justice in the US. The cynicism is the most realistic part of the show.

Why the stupid drama with the cab? If they would return it shortly after filing charges, why wouldn't the father agree to it and then drop them later? If it wouldn't be until after a trial, which would take months or years, how is it really help the other two guys?

If Nas is accused of being a car thief by his own father, his trial in the eyes of the public is already over, even if the lawsuit is later retracted. As the two partners mention, they're only giving him the option because he's a friend, they fully intend to do it themselves.

 

[DietRob]

8 eps

Wow. I expected more than that based on the pacing so far. These last 3 episodes are going to be at breakneck speed I guess.

 

[Einchy]

Goddamn, what an episode.

I really love the bait and switch they did in this episode, they established that Naz has a really dark side and lied about taking Adderall, so it made you think that maybe he could have actually done it. Then they bring back Trevor lying about being alone, which I knew had to come back cus that guy was clearly no good, which makes you certain that Naz is innocent.

Great stuff.

Naz was a push over his entire life. Him suddenly getting that much power and acting like this makes sense.

I bet that up until he had to swallow the drugs, he probably started thinking that being in prison might not actually be so bad.

 

[jmood88]

This is a great mini series but for Christ sake I'm am SO FUCKING DONE with the eczema thing. What the fuck?! I don't see how it adds anything to the show. Episode after episode why do we have to spend so much time with these fucking feet? What can possibly be the point? I had to pause in the middle of episode 5 that I'm watching right now to rant.

It bothers me that much. I'm not sure why I'm letting it bother me this much but here I am pausing the show. It's that distracting.

I truly don't understand why anyone would get this mad about it.

 

[crazepharmacist]

I feel like that last episode came out of nowhere? Everything I liked about the show seemed to fall apart in bizzareness-- not in a good way. It turned into everything it was better than. I loved that it was subtle and tense and understated with small punctuations of quirkiness. Now it's a right shit show sensational drama that's all over the place.

Ohh and the other weird ass shot was with the ME...you know, the corpse penis shot? What in the fuck? I don't know. I think I'm off of it, which sucks because I absolutely loved the first 4 episodes.

Totally agree. The last episode, and only that one seemed so out of place to me. Up until that point, this show was in my top three of all time list. I wonder if they changed director mid production or something. Hire an A-list for the first 4 episodes, get the audience hooked, then change him out for a B-list one for the last 4 to save money.

 

[jmood88]

Totally agree. The last episode, and only that one seemed so out of place to me. Up until that point, this show was in my top three of all time list. I wonder if they changed director mid production or something. Hire an A-list for the first 4 episodes, get the audience hooked, then change him out for a B-list one for the last 4 to save money.

Lmao, no, the same people were involved the entire time. They shot it like an 8-hour movie.

 

[jett]

Easily the best show currently on-air right now.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

So with only 3 episodes left, I can't imagine there being a lengthly trial. Its going to get cut short somehow - there's way too much evidence to go over, not to mention we still need screen time to resolve what's happening to Naz in prison, what's going on with the cab, stone's feet, and investigate so many open ends on that night. I'm expecting little screen time to be spent in court.

 

[duckroll]

Man, Naz sure turned in a mean motherfucker in a short amount of time. I guess it was in him all along. I think someone mentioned before that he could get off on the murder charge and end up doing time for stealing the cab. Looks like that might actually end up happening, and he might embrace it. Prison can turn a "normal" person into a criminal after all.

 

[pj]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/0...or-3-years-without-trial-commits-suicide.html

Rikers is fucking hell on earth if you're just a skinny kid with no street cred.

The major difference between these two situations is right there in the URL. THREE YEARS. In the latest episode they were just getting around to retracing his steps and getting security cam footage. That would be what, day 2 of the investigation? He hasn't been in there that long.

Do these people seem like the kind of people you say "nah, I'm good" to? You don't think he understands the consequences of that? And the guy he beat half to death mocked him after giving him 3rd degree burns. Nas quickly learns this episode that these guys are not his friends. He's a commodity, like everything else, he's only as good as what they can get from him. He can tell them to fuck off, and then he's on his own again.

You don't need to beat him until you're pulled off by another inmate. The fact that there COULD be consequences for not participating is what's so unrealistic. In this ridiculous universe where rikers is run by an inmate, yes it makes sense to beat the guy up some.

He gets a lucky break, and then clearly pushes his luck beyond the point of sanity. I believe that we're supposed to be shocked by his boldness and utter stupidity when he actually goes down the alley. Like what, he's going to beat a confession out if this guy? He's desperate because this trial is the only thing he has going on in his shitty life.

But it's just stupid. 10 minutes earlier he was quibbling over his fee, now he's suicidally dedicated to proving he's not a loser?

Welcome to big city justice in the US. The cynicism is the most realistic part of the show.

There's no setup for why she's like that. She's in the show for a few minutes before this episode, and appears to be a cautious and pragmatic DA. Now she's having the coroner rehearse statements and drawing wild conclusions from 10 seconds of video?

The silence of the cop in that scene, and the map thing prior, is such an obvious telegraph that he thinks Naz didn't do it.

If Nas is accused of being a car thief by his own father, his trial in the eyes of the public is already over, even if the lawsuit is later retracted. As the two partners mention, they're only giving him the option because he's a friend, they fully intend to do it themselves.

Forget the father joining the complaint then. Either the two guys can file charges, get the car back, then drop them and all's good in the world. Or, they file and have to wait until the case is decided which would easily be 6+ months, in which case it's far too late to help them if that's their main source of income. I don't buy it as a source of drama. It either makes 100% sense to do or 0%, depending on facts that we don't know.

 

[TimeEffect]

One thing that doesnt make any sense to me is that naz was barely bloody. How could he have stabbed her so much if he was barely bloody

 

[akileese]

Five episodes in and basically zero movement in the plot.

Stone's feet get more airtime than the murder case the show is supposedly about.

Not saying this show is garbage but it's definitely not anything special.

It's not a law & order episode though. It's about characters and how they handle the situations they're thrown in.

 

[Klocker]

Has it ever dawned on any of the investigators why Naz broke back IN to the house? He was already in with her having sex, that's been established.

Really curious to see how this plays out

 

[Dmax3901]

Man that was rough ending the episode there.

Two possibly stupid questions: Why does he still wear sandals when his feet are covered in cling wrap? They're not letting his feet 'breathe' at all, may as well cover them up.

Second, and this may come up in the trial itself, but how has no-one mentioned how little blood Nasir had on him, compared to how much blood is all over the bed and wall?