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The Official Left 4 Dead Thread
- Thread starter saelz8
- Start date
I can. You guys got uneven tank placement, smoker instant kills, we dropped two players mid game, uneven witch placement.
This was a match where every glaring problem with L4D was on display. We literally lost a good 600 points to you just to uneven tank placement, since you guys were factually raped on the first lvl if we had one.
So fucking frustrating when games fuck up relatively evenly matched teams. I'm not playing again until they fix this shit.
This was a match where every glaring problem with L4D was on display. We literally lost a good 600 points to you just to uneven tank placement, since you guys were factually raped on the first lvl if we had one.
So fucking frustrating when games fuck up relatively evenly matched teams. I'm not playing again until they fix this shit.
EUG was already pissed because of a bunch of stupid shit that has been happening in other games we've been playing, and he was already considering quitting until the patch. But this game solidified it for me, BoiseFanSince99 and EUG.
It's never noticeable when you're playing normal games with people who generally suck, but when you get one even moderately well put together team and it falls apart the second one team gets a tank but the other doesn't, or one team gets a retardedly placed witch and the other gets it in some absurdly easy to avoid place or in a ridiculously easy to crown location.
And the smoker instant kills. Everyone does it in the finale and so it has became a sort of meta game to counter that, but VALVE took it out of many places for a reason. It ruins so many scenarios. That place you pulled me off for an instant kill was fucking retarded. I was like ten feet off the ground and it killed me? And it was on that one death that everything unraveled in that level, since MANGO is not a hardcore player and he had to pick up my slack.
And then you guys got a tank on the BRIDGE of that level, where half your team was already on top of it killing the thing as Boise took control. Whereas your tank spawned with plenty of room to spread its wings and do shit. And we didn't even GET a tank in the first level, whereas you did. Fuck this match pissed me off to no end. I am not a whiner, but this game made me furious.
Hunter swipes is overpowered, but at least that doesn't decide games when both teams can do it. These other things pivot entire matches.
It's never noticeable when you're playing normal games with people who generally suck, but when you get one even moderately well put together team and it falls apart the second one team gets a tank but the other doesn't, or one team gets a retardedly placed witch and the other gets it in some absurdly easy to avoid place or in a ridiculously easy to crown location.
And the smoker instant kills. Everyone does it in the finale and so it has became a sort of meta game to counter that, but VALVE took it out of many places for a reason. It ruins so many scenarios. That place you pulled me off for an instant kill was fucking retarded. I was like ten feet off the ground and it killed me? And it was on that one death that everything unraveled in that level, since MANGO is not a hardcore player and he had to pick up my slack.
And then you guys got a tank on the BRIDGE of that level, where half your team was already on top of it killing the thing as Boise took control. Whereas your tank spawned with plenty of room to spread its wings and do shit. And we didn't even GET a tank in the first level, whereas you did. Fuck this match pissed me off to no end. I am not a whiner, but this game made me furious.
Hunter swipes is overpowered, but at least that doesn't decide games when both teams can do it. These other things pivot entire matches.
Red Scarlet
Member
Amir0x said:
The way they "fixed" the uneven Tanks made it worse to me. Yeah it sucks when a team gets a Tank and the other doesn't, but both teams getting Tanks and Witches at the same spot greatly reduces one of the game's greatest features (to me), the randomness factor. When one team knows a Tank will appear halfway through the level because one did for the other team, it just brings things (tension, element of surprise) down a level, giving yet another advantage to the infected first side (please offer an option to have who goes first switch option for friends games or something, valve)..
Even worse was a game yesterday, BH2; Tank appeared just before the survivors got out to the open area before the emergency door and got 2 molotovs at the start. My team got 0. I liked the more random Tank spawns to go along with the randomized item placement.
If it helps, I actually got insta-killed on the PC version the first night the newest patch came out; the only time I've ever seen it there...79HP->instant death on NM3 right outside of the windowed room after using the lift. It pretty much made everyone go 'wtf'.
Yeah I'd prefer the tanks be even or not at all. Like I said, we pretty much played equal as this team the whole way out on the first Blood Harvest...except, they got a tank and we didn't. So we died, and they didn't.
This should not EVER happen in competitive matches. It is fine in co-op, and it will remain completely random in co-op, but in competition where the difference between evenly matched teams is that one punch with a tank, it becomes a game of strategy.
If they utilize a tank slightly better than us, so be it... but to not get a tank at all? Fuck that. Definitely prefer the alternative since it is the only way so far we have managed to lose, by not getting fair placement.
Re: "Tension" and whatnot. The only time I feel tension in this game anymore is in competitive matches. So, if we get everything evenly placed and I'm facing a good team, I'm still going to have that tension.
However if we don't get everything evenly placed and we barely lose, that turns to plain frustration.
This should not EVER happen in competitive matches. It is fine in co-op, and it will remain completely random in co-op, but in competition where the difference between evenly matched teams is that one punch with a tank, it becomes a game of strategy.
If they utilize a tank slightly better than us, so be it... but to not get a tank at all? Fuck that. Definitely prefer the alternative since it is the only way so far we have managed to lose, by not getting fair placement.
Re: "Tension" and whatnot. The only time I feel tension in this game anymore is in competitive matches. So, if we get everything evenly placed and I'm facing a good team, I'm still going to have that tension.
However if we don't get everything evenly placed and we barely lose, that turns to plain frustration.
The Random item spawn pisses me off. Some games other team will get nothing. Other game they'll get 4 or 5 extra medkits, 2 or 3 pills, half a dozen pipe bombs, etc. These are normally were my rage quits come from. Your team is doing fantastic, Other team is decent enough. You work them down, get some nice pulls, pounces. Then They find 2 med kits. Okay big deal, Same thing then...3 medkits this time. With already the 2 pills they found on the way. Its not like they are better then you, The AI director is just giving them items to muscle there way through.Red Scarlet said:
Red Scarlet
Member
Amir0x said:
I thought I'd prefer the alternative (Tanks/Witches even), but after a couple games with the implementation, I changed my mind. Same spot is just blah. I'd prefer a mix of both previous iterations; if team A gets a Tank, team B gets a Tank, but not in the exact same point in the map every single game. Which of course opens up a different can of worms..I don't think there is ever going to be a perfectly even setup.
shintoki said:
Yeah, what sucked pre-patch (still can happen with patch) was on BH3, my team got three pills in the medbox in the house by the bridge; other team got 3 medkits + a pack of pills, to go along with one or two extra medkits they were given that we weren't.
I actually recorded the BH map yesterday, with the no molotovs and all that, but Pop just wanted to see level 3 for both sides. You can see the same placement of the Witch, which gave us an advantage (although Pop decided to have some acrobatic antics with her). I'm pretty new to recording the game, so there is no sound for the first 4 minutes, but the rest of it has (very low volume) sound. I don't think I have map 2 on my hd anymore, but I can check..it was a very quick level.
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/BH3 VS.avi
edit: Yeah, deleted the level 2..its about 45gb for a vs match to be recorded on my computer.
Red Scarlet said:
Completely agree.
I understand finding a delicate balance that satisfies everyone is near impossible, but many balance fixes so far have been lazy. They've essentially neutered the AI Director.
It can be hilarious when the director completely shits on one side, just because that's how the cards fall. I mean, I wouldn't want that to happen every time I play... but that it can't happen anymore has removed some of the game's spark.
There's got to be a middle-ground, a sweet spot.
Switching turns, Still has the 3 times to 2...But its much better then one side knowing. Where the tank will spawn, Where the witch is, Where the T2 weapons are, etc. It really does add up allot of times. Like No Mercy 03 start, If the survivors run straight and look for weapons in the garage. Its a fantastic spot for the infected cause some good damage. If they just run to the left right away, takes a good chance away from the infected.Goreomedy said:
When I'm 2nd to go, I take note of everything the survivors do and encounter. Where they found the medkits, pipes bombs, etc. If they didn't find the weapons in the garage I mention above and the tank doesn't come till the sewer part. I just skip it. I also note where they found the large groups of 2 or so dozen zombies just lying around.
It really is funny trying get this fair for both teams, but at the same time balanced.
But the final level has always been equally played. So alternating teams is really 2-2. Unless a server is using screwy settings, you know how that level plays out whether you're first or second.
I suppose Valve was worried there'd be more rage quits with alternating rounds, but friend only games would appreciate the format. And public games are public for a reason.
I suppose Valve was worried there'd be more rage quits with alternating rounds, but friend only games would appreciate the format. And public games are public for a reason.
CabbageRed
Member
I've put about 40 hours into L4D now and I'm amazed at what a fantastic game it is. I played the first Savage a bit, but I haven't had this much fun in an FPS since Planetside--it's so nice to see someone nail teamwork-based action.
Mainly, I'm impressed with the quality of players that I am running into. For the most part, they are all team players and are either quiet, cocky-but-funny, or full-on polite. I quit my first game today because some little dude wouldn't shut up about how he felt that everyone should be playing, but that is it.* It's a pity, however, that so many people join VS matches only to bail the moment that they cannot be zombies--it really hurts the experience (to the point where I always try to play as human for the first round so I know my team is likely in it for the long haul.
As for random item placement, shouldn't the AI Director just be able to premptively decide where to drop the tank(s) for the second roun, and then scatter cocktails along the path in a way that would mirror (in terms of availability, not placement) the first round?
*I'll take a TK'er over a Napoleon any day of the week.
Mainly, I'm impressed with the quality of players that I am running into. For the most part, they are all team players and are either quiet, cocky-but-funny, or full-on polite. I quit my first game today because some little dude wouldn't shut up about how he felt that everyone should be playing, but that is it.* It's a pity, however, that so many people join VS matches only to bail the moment that they cannot be zombies--it really hurts the experience (to the point where I always try to play as human for the first round so I know my team is likely in it for the long haul.
As for random item placement, shouldn't the AI Director just be able to premptively decide where to drop the tank(s) for the second roun, and then scatter cocktails along the path in a way that would mirror (in terms of availability, not placement) the first round?
*I'll take a TK'er over a Napoleon any day of the week.
Red Scarlet
Member
Whoa, that was weird, I just did a quick campaign and it put me in with a 'cabbagered', who sounded familiar. Said it was the same one from 3 posts up, too. Game dc'd me at the map change, but I was getting upwards of 1480ms, so I would've been a detriment for the finale anyway.
CabbageRed
Member
Red Scarlet said:
Booted me as well. Still cool as I think that was my first GAF encounter in 'the wild.' Hopefully I'll bump into you and others more often as time goes on--I get the feeling I'll be hooked for awhile.
Red Scarlet
Member
I tried doing .dem's at first, but it had really bad skippy animation problems.
timetokill
Banned
Red Scarlet said:
I thought so too, but it definitely gives a huge advantage to the infected-first side and also takes a lot of the surprise and fun out of it, like you said. It becomes way too strategic to use the tank or hang back and look for molotovs and things because you know you'll need them ahead.
Obviously making sure a tank spawns for each team, but at different points doesn't work either. There's also that huge problem that was mentioned, where one team gets molotovs and the other doesn't, or more health packs for one team, etc.
I think they need to put the Director in more control and have it try to even things out a bit. Health packs don't spawn unless the team is doing poorly, and even then there's a limit set for both teams -- but they don't HAVE to spawn all of the allotted amount. Maybe add in a health total that indicates whether tanks spawn or not. For instance, if the total health of a team is over 250, spawn the tank at the next possible spot. If not, don't spawn it. Something like that. If the team has zero health packs remaining, don't spawn the tank. If it has 4 health packs, then no matter what amount of health they have, spawn it at some point. Etc.
I think the point of the Director, and where it works, was always when it dealt with trying to keep things intense. Throwing health packs at a team when they're already full on health packs and at worst in the yellow range is stupid and frustrating for the infected. The Director should be giving (some) aid to teams that are struggling a lot and not helping teams that are breezing by. If a team is charging through a level and not meeting much resistance, the tank should spawn to slow them down.
Panda Bear
Banned
timetokill said:
I like Bulleta's tank/witch idea but I also sometimes think I'd almost prefer going back to the old way. If one team gets a tank and another one doesn't then oh well, that's just the way the chips fell. It seems way too tactical and predictable when it's tit for tat like this, especially with the tank. Almost so much so that it takes the fun out of the game.
And yes the Director should be given much more control. Especially over medpacks and explosives. Fact is, in many games the teams are not going to be even and so one team will need a handicap to keep up or the game just becomes one-sided and boring.
I honestly don't think there anything wrong with tank/witch spawning in the same place. For team A, they don't expect the tank, however Team B doesn't either and thus are unable to place their infected to support the tank. Then when Team B are the survivors, they know where the tank is. However so does Team A who can place their infected to help the tank out.
vertopci said:
Honestly, it works out better for the second survivor team nine times out of ten.
Just had a nice back and forth game. Didn't think we'd make it until we nailed the 4th stage. However, it was a fine example of us knowing how to deal with the tank since we knew when it'd be coming.
Honestly, I'd like to think that there's a middle ground, but am not really sure if that's really doable.
Suburban Cowboy
Member
why cant they just place tanks/witches into their AI-director algorithm? If one team is far ahead in the points, make them face a tank. I didnt mind one team getting a tank and another not on the first level, I always figured if it created a point differential the other team would get their comeuppance sooner or later
Panda Bear
Banned
I lobve you Vert. But I think knowing where the tank is helps out the survivors much more than the infected. And often you can easily adapt to a tank as infected whether you expect it or not. It seems very unfair to me and I agree with many here that the Director needs to have jurisdiction over tanks and witches.vertopci said:
Red Scarlet
Member
Sanjay said:
Something to do with my school connection being shitty/unable to handle the amount of people on/people sucking up bandwidth from others during the day; usually I can't/don't really have the ability to play until after midnight or on weekends.
What really pisses me off is those stupid health cabinets. Sometimes you get like one pack of pain pills, and the other team gets 4 medkits. What the crap is up with that? It's like a hold over from single player where the director is being way too easy on you for failing hard.
Molotov and pipebomb placement tends to be pretty bad too. No Mercy 5 I played a game where one team got like 8 pipebombs and 4 molotovs (not including the ones at spawn), and my team got 3 propane tanks. That is complete garbage. The other team essentially threw a pipebomb after every previous one was used, and it was next to impossible to do any damage until the tank (and it was still next to impossible, because they were all at full health). I'm pretty sure one of our tanks was spawned in plain view too and took a molotov and the chain gun too.
Exact same location for tank spawns suck... they just need to make sure both teams have the same amount of tanks (and not before say.. 20% of the way through the map), and that's good enough for me. Witches spawning in close to the same location and always on the main path was a good change, even if the witch is piss weak.
Molotov and pipebomb placement tends to be pretty bad too. No Mercy 5 I played a game where one team got like 8 pipebombs and 4 molotovs (not including the ones at spawn), and my team got 3 propane tanks. That is complete garbage. The other team essentially threw a pipebomb after every previous one was used, and it was next to impossible to do any damage until the tank (and it was still next to impossible, because they were all at full health). I'm pretty sure one of our tanks was spawned in plain view too and took a molotov and the chain gun too.
Exact same location for tank spawns suck... they just need to make sure both teams have the same amount of tanks (and not before say.. 20% of the way through the map), and that's good enough for me. Witches spawning in close to the same location and always on the main path was a good change, even if the witch is piss weak.
timetokill
Banned
(whoops, double-posted 
).
).timetokill
Banned
So, a group I was in was going through No Mercy, up to the sewers. We were trashing guys so we had a lot of ragequits.
On the sewers map (NM3), we put one guy down despite the other team getting about 3 health packs each :lol And tons of pipe bombs.
Anyway, when it was our turn, we were making our way through pretty easily, even going to the ammo/warehouse room, realizing I forgot to get the Tier 2 weapons from the second story near the gas station, and then running back to get them :lol
All four of us have health packs and three grenades, and the Tank shows up at the end of the sewers, at the manhole cover that leads to the end of the map. We get back into the hallways and wait, fully expecting them to not bother. Of course they don't, so when the tank music fades we kill the rest of the team and head to the ladder. We look up to find a car parked over the manhole cover.
I thought this shit was fixed with the last patch, so we decided to wait it out in the nearby closet, which is where the screenshot above comes in. We all have health packs and are doing fine. We sit in there for a few minutes and check the manhole cover on occasion. Nope. Never disappeared.
Come ON Valve. This one was an obvious one.
What ended up happening was we stuck it out in the room for at least 20 minutes, killing everyone that came in. We figured we'd try and see if the car would disappear if we went far enough back, so we trekked back to the point where you drop into the sewers, and then made our way back. Never disappeared.
The opposing team kept calling it a "rape room" despite doing negligible damage to us. We taunted back of course, saying they couldn't kill us and that if they wanted the round to end they would have to finish us off.
One of them got bored and decided he would go to the bathroom or something. That's when we did the vote to return to the lobby. Success! They ended the match without ever being able to kill us. We were never going to allow them that kind of release.
Two of the pathetic, exploiting culprits are listed below (I think they're accurate), if you wish to tear them apart in game, or simply kick them...
- Sprinter
- nthelement
manzo
Member
LunaticPuma said:
This this this.
Valve hasn't stated that "the patch is done, it's up to Microsoft now". They've only said "It's coming to live in the next few weeks". Add Valve time and it's probably half an year.
Should it be Microsoft, the patch would most likely be up by now.
I think it's pretty damn unfair that the PC players have already got another patch after the "big" patch, while we're still waiting for the first one!
Fuck console peasantry. My new e8500 core2duo, 4 gigs of ram and 4850 512mb is arriving this week, I'm off to Steam. After this it'll be co-op on console and versus on PC.
Giganticus
Member
that's an extension of the tank parking strategy. when you "park" a tank you move it far far ahead of the survivors in a more effective tank space ie. not narrow hallways where it'll get killed easily. once the AI takes over the tank wont move until survivors get near. we like to "park" it in the saferoom of NM3 if we get it in the sewers or hallways as they are just too narrow to fight in.timetokill said:
however, if before the AI takes over you hit a car over the hole, well, then you screw them over. stuff blocking a doorway or manhole wont disappear till the tank is dead; this is cos valve thought it was fair game for an active tank to try and stop survivors temporarily.
it's a nasty glitch, easily fixed by "is tank dead or inactive but alive -> make stuff disappear", which i'd prefer to having it die after losing control because tank parking is a good way to avoid having a bullshit insta-dead tank.
talking of which, yesterday I spawned as a tank in front of the minigun on NM5, and the AI threw a rock before I took over, cue me spawning with half health, on fire, and unable to move for a few seconds.
EDIT: and don't talk about unfair console peasantry. Valve are at the very least making sure they'll be able to patch everything at once. Microsoft limits how much they can patch it before paying for each patch. Think about it, it's already had 1 title update. Halo 3 has had what, 2 so far? And it's another heavily multiplayer focused game. It's a shame MS wont let Valve use it's "free updates mean more sales" model, but there we go. And let's not forget the reason they aren't allowed to give out free updates is because it would make other companies look bad.
Pop On Arrival
Banned
I really can't think of a decent compromise that would appease both sides. Some people love the random aspect of everything, while some people would just bitch and moan when they get an unfair Tank spawn. Perhaps just make sure the Tank spawns for both teams after or before they get to their respective weapon upgrades? Randomize Tanks, but pick a designated spot for weapons to spawn and stick with it. Neutering the AI director isn't fun, and just gives the second team way too much of an advantage. As it is right now, infected teams know the following:
*Where the Tank is gonna spawn
*Where the Witch is gonna spawn
*Where the weapons are gonna be
Really, I was one of the people that thought the Tank spawning in the same place for both teams were a good idea, but after seeing way too many games where the second batch of survivors are obviously a little well too prepared for the tank, I've changed my mind. While the old system was broken, the one we're using right now isn't really any better. It's just that instead of a random team being boned, the chances are higher that the first batch of survivors will be boned.
*Where the Tank is gonna spawn
*Where the Witch is gonna spawn
*Where the weapons are gonna be
Really, I was one of the people that thought the Tank spawning in the same place for both teams were a good idea, but after seeing way too many games where the second batch of survivors are obviously a little well too prepared for the tank, I've changed my mind. While the old system was broken, the one we're using right now isn't really any better. It's just that instead of a random team being boned, the chances are higher that the first batch of survivors will be boned.
And no, my opinion wasn't solely colored by the last game I played with fellow GAF dudes, I'm guilty of going infected first way too often because of how advantageous it is.
Giganticus
Member
i go infected first simply because when we play survivors we "race" to the saferoom. as i've got a slow loading computer it means that if i go survivor first i'll have a disadvantage.
the other bonus of going infected first is that the pubbies who join and stay in your lobby aren't the kind of douches who just want 1 round of infected fun then leave afterwards - which you get a lot of.
the other bonus of going infected first is that the pubbies who join and stay in your lobby aren't the kind of douches who just want 1 round of infected fun then leave afterwards - which you get a lot of.
Suburban Cowboy said:
It did work out this way a lot. What the director gave, the director took. I remember a couple games where we got a tank on the first level and the other team didn't. And they'd complain like crazy. And I'd say, just wait. And sure enough, the director would screw us heavily in the later levels. And the problem with that is the step ladder multipliers. You lose out on a later level because of impossible scenarios and it was effectively insurmountable to ever regain those lost points.
manzo
Member
Giganticus said:
Since when has the game makers had pay for releasing patches over Xbox live? Is this true or did you pull this out of your hat?
Very fucking sad if true, is this a way Microsoft wants to punish the devs if they release buggy games? "Pay for your fuckups" sounds kinda harsh for heavily online oriented games that require quite a lot of fixes during their life cycle.
Giganticus
Member
manzo said:
They get 2 title updates "for free" from what I've heard. I dunno how it works entirely but I think they have to release DLC at the same time as any future title updates to cover the cost, as it were. It's lame but it sounds like the kind of thing a lot of publishers do to keep a good "image".
And as for the content updates, like I said Microsoft forces them to charge. So for TF2 they are waiting to release a metric shitton of content. L4D they are gonna release an entire campaign, maybe you'll get vs for the other two campaigns for free, who knows. Remember MS used to force Epic to charge or at least get any free content sponsored.
EDIT: for TF2, the PC vs. xbox is day and night. The PC can handle more players than 16 for example, and you get awesome servers with custom maps or rules or mods like 2F2F, plus some classes just aren't really playable on Xbox, like Scout. And of course, you can buy TF2 separate from Orange Box for a very low price. At least with L4D, all you get is delayed patches and content while the core game is the same. We haven't seen any decent custom campaigns yet (we've seen the workings of some, to be sure) so that's not a big factor. Not yet, anyway.
You have to pay MS for the testing of a Title Update - and there is a lifetime size limit of 4MB for each title update.
The reason there is no XB360 title update yet is most likely because it will need to put the fixes in with the DLC. The DLC can contain whole bunch of fixes alongside anything new they add. The PC patch was around 340MB, I think.
So yeah it sucks for us 360 L4Ders (ladders?) - I just hope that the XB360 DLC is equal to the PC version, or free ... or maybe both
The reason there is no XB360 title update yet is most likely because it will need to put the fixes in with the DLC. The DLC can contain whole bunch of fixes alongside anything new they add. The PC patch was around 340MB, I think.
So yeah it sucks for us 360 L4Ders (ladders?) - I just hope that the XB360 DLC is equal to the PC version, or free ... or maybe both
Pretty lame but whatever...
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbKFPQQGL5w&fmt=22
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ird8EdNTU9I&fmt=22
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbKFPQQGL5w&fmt=22
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ird8EdNTU9I&fmt=22
Pop On Arrival
Banned
We were going for 7000 points
