black_vegeta
Member
GeoNeo said:Anyway to watch replay of Gods Garden?
Yes, I would like to watch these great event as well.
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The Official Street Fighter IV Thread of FADCing a Stranger in the Alps
- Thread starter haunts
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Yes, I would like to watch these great event as well.
DryEyeRelief
Member
GeoNeo said:Anyway to watch replay of Gods Garden?
They'll probably be reposted on lordaborigine's youtube page. That is how I saw most of Gods Garden 1.
Reno/Oichi said:
What are their catchphrases?
Spiderjericho
Member
Wow at the vortex in those Eita videos. Akuma/Sagat
Aruarian Reflection
Chauffeur de la gdlk
UC1 said:
Dude, MarkMan was in Kabuki-cho. He was doing a lot more than that with random hotties, if you know what I mean
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
do people really believe Daigo dont play the game on console?
he played that Rose fight pretty solid
he played that Rose fight pretty solid
bistromathics
facing a bright new dawn
i noticed during button check they were using the 360 version, no?~Devil Trigger~ said:
so wtf is with this "ps3 standard" rule i had to mod my stick for?
New Chun infinite found by error1. So awesome :lol
MORE pictures from GodsGarden, this time the official ones... I'm the dude in the white hoodie and red baseball cap, fwiw.
http://web.me.com/tohoho/GODSGARDEN2/
http://web.me.com/tohoho/GODSGARDEN2/
Spiderjericho
Member
They got Markman in there, ha. Good stuff. Those are some professional level photos.
sixteen-bit
Member
thanks for sharingUC1 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXBuBGekxtc
st lols at damage scaling
this combo wont even kill seth in iv irrc
Thanks for the input from everyone earlier on not giving up on the stick. I'll just have to really take the bigger plunge with it when SSF4 comes out. I think I was just expecting it to be such a smooth transition on speed and accuracy, but it takes serious practice and dedication.
I won't give up.
I won't give up.
The reality is that you're giving up a control scheme you've been using and practicing with for probably a decade or more and starting fresh with a device you're likely touching for the first time. It's not going to be quick or easy. Personally, I'd recommend not holding it off. Yes, it's painful getting slapped around while you're still learning, but shame only holds you back and you don't get better by not using it. Again, playing other games on stick helps too.zlatko said:Thanks for the input from everyone earlier on not giving up on the stick. I'll just have to really take the bigger plunge with it when SSF4 comes out. I think I was just expecting it to be such a smooth transition on speed and accuracy, but it takes serious practice and dedication.
I won't give up.
Oh yeah, for some people it's not obvious that you should be using a grip that has you move the stick with mainly your wrist and fingers, not your arm. Beyond that, it's entirely a matter of preference.
SephirothRK
Member
There's some hereGeoNeo said:Anyway to watch replay of Gods Garden?
http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/17958431
also
http://www.youtube.com/user/LordAborigineSF4
The problem that I have with the argument that sticks offer more precision, is the very fact that the concept of an analog stick itself is not in complete harmony with digital input reading. On a well-constructed digital pad, there's much less space for ambiguity or unintentional inputs, simply because the ergonomic design of a digital pad is engineered to match each digital input. It's similar to saying you can make more precise measurements with standard imperial over metric or mark an instant more accurately with a sundial rather than stop watch - it's a no-brainer. Analog sticks aren't precise at all: they're just what people are used to.
Where Arcade Sticks host a real advantage is the button layout - your fingers have more flexibility in regards to how you want to push each button, something a controller doesn't allow as easily, because it is engineered to be form-fitting to the digits and palms.
Someone really should consider engineering a some type of amalgam - a digital pad, 6 button layout interface. It's hard to think how that could be engineered for comfort, but I'm sure it can be done.
I grew up using stick at the arcade, but once the fighting genre petered out near the end of the new millennium, I became a console pad player. I consider myself quite good at fighting games and figured getting used to stick again would be much easier than it is right now (first time using a Japanese stick, though).
Honestly, I wouldn't even be playing with a stick if, for whatever reason, 3 button Ultras didn't seem impossible to do on PS3/360 pads. This is the only game I felt I couldn't play on pad.
/Vent
Where Arcade Sticks host a real advantage is the button layout - your fingers have more flexibility in regards to how you want to push each button, something a controller doesn't allow as easily, because it is engineered to be form-fitting to the digits and palms.
Someone really should consider engineering a some type of amalgam - a digital pad, 6 button layout interface. It's hard to think how that could be engineered for comfort, but I'm sure it can be done.
I grew up using stick at the arcade, but once the fighting genre petered out near the end of the new millennium, I became a console pad player. I consider myself quite good at fighting games and figured getting used to stick again would be much easier than it is right now (first time using a Japanese stick, though).
Honestly, I wouldn't even be playing with a stick if, for whatever reason, 3 button Ultras didn't seem impossible to do on PS3/360 pads. This is the only game I felt I couldn't play on pad.
/Vent
Teknopathetic
Member
"The problem that I have with the argument that sticks offer more precision, is the very fact that the concept of an analog stick itself is not in complete harmony with digital input reading"
Not sure I understand what you mean here about analog sticks.
The main benefit of sticks just comes down to human anatomy. More parts, more muscles allow you to do the same motions faster with less strain.
Not sure I understand what you mean here about analog sticks.
The main benefit of sticks just comes down to human anatomy. More parts, more muscles allow you to do the same motions faster with less strain.
Teknopathetic said:
The stick itself, in a physical sense, is an analog design. It reads digital inputs.
What?
*edit*
Very little is ergonomic about an arcade stick design, which is why everyone has different methods of using them - where they rest the base, how they hold the stick, where they place their fingers, etc. If they were truly as anatomically harmonious as you described, everyone would use them similarly, for the most part.
FindMyFarms
Member
Kimosabae said:
What he's trying to say is that since you can use your wrist and fingers, you can hit more directions faster than you can with just your thumb on a pad.
There's some movements on stick that have yet to be replicated on pad. A Wave dash in tekken is performed by pressing towards, going back to neutral, then doing a quarter circle forward from down, and then going back to neutral before performing it again.
Now the light dash is pretty much doing 4-6 of those per second. The greatest Tekken player to ever live, Jang Iksu, could do about 8 of those per second effortlessly on a Korean Fanta stick.
Case in point -
>>This isn't going down on pad.<<
Granted, you don't have to be able to do that in any other game, or even in tekken to be competitive, just showing the potential behind proper stick usage.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Very little is ergonomic about an arcade stick design, which is why everyone has different methods of using them - where they rest the base, how they hold the stick, where they place their fingers, etc. If they were truly as anatomically harmonious as you described, everyone would use them similarly, for the most part."
"No I'm not, Tekno is. Furthermore, an effective ergonomic design would take such fundamental human variations into consideration, no?"
What? There's not really many fundamental human variations to having fingers/wrists (Some exceptions do apply, I suppose) and more muscles/moving parts in the fingers/hand/wrist/arm combination than solely in your thumb. Furthermore, people having varying hand sizes is entirely irrelevant.
"The stick itself, in a physical sense, is an analog design. It reads digital inputs."
I'm not sure how you make this determination.
"No I'm not, Tekno is. Furthermore, an effective ergonomic design would take such fundamental human variations into consideration, no?"
What? There's not really many fundamental human variations to having fingers/wrists (Some exceptions do apply, I suppose) and more muscles/moving parts in the fingers/hand/wrist/arm combination than solely in your thumb. Furthermore, people having varying hand sizes is entirely irrelevant.
"The stick itself, in a physical sense, is an analog design. It reads digital inputs."
I'm not sure how you make this determination.
FindMyFarms said:
Yes, Tekken Wavedash is most effective on stick, but as you alluded to in your last sentence, I fail to see how such an arcane technique refutes my argument for purposeful, ergonomic design. No developer of a game would intentionally design such a thing because there's no paradigm in our understanding for it. Intuition lies beyond the interface - it has to dominate the game's design as well (and it does).
FindMyFarms
Member
Kimosabae said:
I'm not commenting on ergonomics. I'm just showing that some things are only possible on stick.
edit - And I can't see how arcade sticks aren't precise. I've used all sorts of control inputs for various game genres, I've never had a problem hitting a direction with an arcade stick, especially with square gates.
Teknopathetic said:
I agree. That's why I never brought it up.
Main Entry: an·a·log
Pronunciation: \ˈa-nə-ˌlȯg, -ˌläg\
Function: adjective
Date: 1946
1 : of, relating to, or being an analogue
2 a : of, relating to, or being a mechanism in which data is represented by continuously variable physical quantities b : of or relating to an analog computer c : being a timepiece having hour and minute hands
Bolded definition is the essence of the stick's physical design, no? The stick can be moved analogous to 360 degrees, but only reads data from 8 digital inputs.
Playing SF4 with an arcade stick is akin to playing any 2D fighter with a Gamecube analog stick.
I was specifically addressing what Kimosabee said about the existence of multiple ways to use the stick, even if he wasn't properly addressing Tekno's point. To speak to what Tekno said would have me commenting on keeping your thumbs in tension all the time while rubbing them on plastic, which as I mentioned in an earlier post DOES take its toll. To say that pad controllers are fundamentally ergonomic is simply untrue.
Otherwise, you wouldn't have as much disagreement as to what specific pad is best. Obviously proving their failings.
Otherwise, you wouldn't have as much disagreement as to what specific pad is best. Obviously proving their failings.
FindMyFarms said:
I understand your argument. My argument is that anomalies such as the one you've presented aren't relevant to how games are designed, or even how human beings think.
I'm not saying one can't be relatively precise with an arcade stick. I'm saying they're fundamentally not as precise as digital pads.
Hitokage said:To say that pad controllers are fundamentally ergonomic is simply untrue.
Otherwise, you wouldn't have as much disagreement as to what specific pad is best. Obviously proving their failings.
I never stated controllers were more ergonomic in an absolute sense - only relative to arcade sticks. I think the argument can be made that tactile interface engineers suck in the gaming industry.
Teknopathetic
Member
You are not very good at being clear with what exactly you're arguing about, Kimosabae. What part of my post, exactly, do you take issue with? There *are* more parts and more muscles in the fingers, hands, wrist, and arms combined. When you use a stick, you use all of those parts combined which lessens the strain and since they have some independence, it is possible to combine them to do complex motions faster by having separate parts do different motions.
Also, posting that definition of analog doesn't clarify you're trying to say as it specifically says analog (in that definition) is determined by how the *data* is represented.
Also, posting that definition of analog doesn't clarify you're trying to say as it specifically says analog (in that definition) is determined by how the *data* is represented.
FindMyFarms
Member
Kimosabae said:
Well, it was an extreme example to show that circular motions are just easier on sticks.
And I don't get where you coming from with the whole precision thing. There's only 8 directions, and any stick user can hit whichever direction he wants at any time. I don't see how it's not precise.
Kimosabae said:
Does that change the fact that motions are easier to do on a stick? Y u so confusing.
Dpads and arcade sticks both work on the same paradigm: activating four electronic switches. One has you sliding your thumb around on a swiveling piece of plastic, while the other has you finely manipulating a lever. Given the increased room for error, an arcade stick can actually be MORE precise.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Which typically activates a more efficient, quicker response? The pull of a lever, or the push of a button?
But we're not talking about just the pull of a lever or the push of a button. We're talking about more complex movements. Combinations of complex movements, done consecutively in some cases.
But we're not talking about just the pull of a lever or the push of a button. We're talking about more complex movements. Combinations of complex movements, done consecutively in some cases.
Teknopathetic said:
But in principle, at the core, is that not almost literally the difference? When I still have to move the lever to the 6 position, before 6 can activate, if I want to move forward (6), because the lever itself rests at 5?
On a D-Pad, 6 is directly beneath a button that I can press, to activate more immediately. How is this not the same in principle?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
To execute complex directional and button inputs in precise combinations and strict timing? I'd say stick.Kimosabae said:
I find it a little hard to see how pressing "right" on the d-pad is any faster or "more immediate" than flicking your wrist to the right on a stick.Kimosabae said:
FindMyFarms
Member
Kimosabae said:
But you can't limit the definition of precision to one action. There are a lot of input combinations out there, and the majority of them can be performed faster and more accurately on a stick.
I think what you're arguing is which control method presents an easier means to activate a single direction with no regard to the plethora of other motions out there, and then basing precision off of that one facet alone. A fallacy in argument if I may say.