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The Oily, Gentlemanly Super Spin Fighter 4 Reveal Thread of Kunoichis and Karatekas

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Arde5643

Member
abstract alien said:
I will never understand how some people believe a parry actually took the difficulty out of the game. It was the most high risk thing you could ever do in fighting game history probably. Pushing forward to deflect an attack, in a fighting game where you hold back to block...that just sounds like trouble incoming if you mess up :lol
How the hell can parry be high risk? The stupid thing doesn't have any recovery whatsoever.

Parry in SF3 is completely different than parrying in any other 3D fighting games where parries are high risk high reward moves, that has tons of recovery if they whiff the parry.

In SF3, if you whiff a parry, you just move forward slightly and can still block/do a special/tech-throw in time for anything.

Parries in SF3 are low risk high reward moves - very much like Sagat's tiger knee spam.
 

Duelist

Member
abstract alien said:
I will never understand how some people believe a parry actually took the difficulty out of the game. It was the most high risk thing you could ever do in fighting game history probably. Pushing forward to deflect an attack, in a fighting game where you hold back to block...that just sounds like trouble incoming if you mess up :lol

For one, it made projectiles (including projectile supers) completely worthless outside of a link. Also, it makes it a lot harder to set up solid traps. Force someone into a corner through solid poking and distancing? Well that doesn't matter, one parry is enough dismantle all that work.
 
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
It was way too easy to do against fireballs though.
Perhaps, but the risk of doing it versus receiving chip damage from blocking it is fair imo. Plus, even in high level matches there have been people tripped up by going from parrying regular projectiles to ex versions. The pressure the fireball gave its corresponding characters was cut a bit, but not to the point of really destroying the integrity of it all. It just gave people another option to get out of it for people who spammed them. This is coming from someone who was in no way a tournament player, but this is just what Ive assumed from watching a ton of high level matches.
 
As far as close quarters fighting goes, you would only get caught in a parry if your opponent predicted your next move, right? Im asking, not trying to be a smartass or anything. Ive never understood the concept that parrying did more harm than good, especially after failing to do it properly and having half of my life gauge destroyed because of my mistake.
 
abstract alien said:
As far as close quarters fighting goes, you would only get caught in a parry if your opponent predicted your next move, right? Im asking, not trying to be a smartass or anything. Ive never understood the concept that parrying did more harm than good, especially after failing to do it properly and having half of my life gauge destroyed because of my mistake.

There are ways to parry without having to predict the movie, you just have to be really good and know all the scenarios. Urien, for example, has a punch (I don't remember which) where he yells HA (might be something else, idr) before he attacks and if you hit forward when he yells that you'll parry every time. There are other moves like Akuma's F -> MP that you can see coming and parry if you're good enough. It really depends.
 

Arde5643

Member
abstract alien said:
As far as close quarters fighting goes, you would only get caught in a parry if your opponent predicted your next move, right? Im asking, not trying to be a smartass or anything. Ive never understood the concept that parrying did more harm than good, especially after failing to do it properly and having half of my life gauge destroyed because of my mistake.
Do you hold forward when trying to parry or just nudging forward for a split second? Most beginners make the mistake of holding forward to parry which is a big mistake.

The active parrying frame is small so there's no point in holding forward.

However, since moving forward doesn't have any recovery whatsoever, option select parry removes almost any needed risk.


Parrying isn't the bane of SF3, but it caused option select parry, which is the worst thing to happen to SF3.
 

n3ss

aka acr0nym
abstract alien said:
As far as close quarters fighting goes, you would only get caught in a parry if your opponent predicted your next move, right? Im asking, not trying to be a smartass or anything. Ive never understood the concept that parrying did more harm than good, especially after failing to do it properly and having half of my life gauge destroyed because of my mistake.

Yes, it was more of being able to read someone (if they were too predictable) or good guess work. However, option parry's made a lot of things risk free, but certain situations risk can be high (you miss a parry you'll be eating a lot of damage when you could have just blocked).

But for the most part, good players option parry, thus eliminating a majority of the risk...
 
Arde5643 said:
Do you hold forward when trying to parry or just nudging forward for a split second? Most beginners make the mistake of holding forward to parry which is a big mistake.
Nah, I definitely did a split second tap. It would only happen because I misjudged my opponents move. Unlucky for me, the guy I played the most used yun, so any time I missed, I was pretty much eaten alive :lol
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
There are ways to parry without having to predict the movie, you just have to be really good and know all the scenarios. Urien, for example, has a punch (I don't remember which) where he yells HA (might be something else, idr) before he attacks and if you hit forward when he yells that you'll parry every time. There are other moves like Akuma's F -> MP that you can see coming and parry if you're good enough. It really depends.
Did the red parry have any different properties than the normal one? Your post just reminded me of those...
 

Teknoman

Member
I still feel bad that I havent unlocked everyone...i've got no problem with beating arcade mode to unlock people, but dont make it "beat with specific character to unlock specific character".

Should've just done it like Tekken and just made it the number of times you beat the game, regardless of character if they were going that route.
 

Singho

Member
Arde5643 said:
How the hell can parry be high risk? The stupid thing doesn't have any recovery whatsoever.

In SF3, if you whiff a parry, you just move forward slightly and can still block/do a special/tech-throw in time for anything.

Parries in SF3 are low risk high reward moves - very much like Sagat's tiger knee spam.

Dunno about you mate, but it sounds like you've never played the game and just read about it. The comment about it being similar to Sagat's tiger knee spam is laughable. You still had to predict and react to the opening created from the parry.

You tap forward at the wrong time and you ARE eating hits. The way you make it sound as if you can without fail tap fwd and back in one motion to have some kind of ultimate defence!

In regards to fireballs, if you knew how to parry, the person can quite effectively parry fireballs all day. But the point of this was so that no one could ONLY rely on doing this. You've only got to look at SFIV or HDRMX with characters like Sagat who dominate certain characters who don't have options to float through or bypass fireballs effectivley.

You can still add pressure and traps with EX fireball moves, but it wasn't something that you could rely on to get your wins.

All characters have strengths and weaknesses, the parry was universal and it could allow a character which otherwise wouldn't stand a chance against another match up an ace up their sleeve. Grapplers and non fireball characters for example.

...I've not even read the rest of this thread. Need to see if the SSFIV rumours came true!

Edit

Just read your post about option select. Even still, it's not like it was easy to do and is fail proof in a match.

I know parries put a lot of people off from the game due to the difficulty to pull them off without putting a bit of time into the game. Timing and rhythem wise for particular moves.
 
Great news and I will buy it whenever it comes out, but if this is for the arcade only at the moment, this news is worthless to me then. I don't want to have to wait a very long time for this upgrade at home.
 
abstract alien said:
I will never understand how some people believe a parry actually took the difficulty out of the game. It was the most high risk thing you could ever do in fighting game history probably. Pushing forward to deflect an attack, in a fighting game where you hold back to block...that just sounds like trouble incoming if you mess up :lol
option select parry
 

Arde5643

Member
Singho said:
All characters have strengths and weaknesses, the parry was universal and it could allow a character which otherwise wouldn't stand a chance against another match up an ace up their sleeve. Grapplers and non fireball characters for example.
In theory, yes, that's what parry should've done.

Option select parry just makes the playable characters be limited to mostly 3-4 characters in high level tourney play though.

Again, SF3 is such a beautiful and dynamic game to look at, I just think the game's system limits the type of characters playable in the game.
 
option select parries are the exception, not the rule.

in anything beyond a mediocre level of play, a missed parry on anything close range meant you ate at least 1 hit, or a combo.

I find it really hard to believe that parrying is anything but high-risk, except on screen-width fireballs.
 

n3ss

aka acr0nym
Cromulent_Word said:
option select parries are the exception, not the rule.

in anything beyond a mediocre level of play, a missed parry on anything close range meant you ate at least 1 hit, or a combo.

I find it really hard to believe that parrying is anything but high-risk, except on screen-width fireballs.

I wouldn't say its high-risk, mid-risk is more like it. Its only high-risk if you have no idea what your doing... Get Haunts in here, he'll go on all day how its risk free...
 

Singho

Member
Arde5643 said:
In theory, yes, that's what parry should've done.

Option select parry just makes the playable characters be limited to mostly 3-4 characters in high level tourney play though.

The parry didn't make those characters...it added to the other strengths they already had.

Chun with her HP and x 2 Super Art II.
Ken with his rediculous links into SAIII and his short and x 3 SA bar.
Yun with that god damn Genei Jin.

All characters have bullshit, which is needed to balance them out and to make them viable options. Such as how certain characters are better at tick throwing then others, I would abuse that shit all day as thats what they are strong at.

But the above guys needed a tweaking...not nerfing, but say like increasing Yun and Ken's SA bar and limiting Chunners to one SA stock.

Dunno where I'm going with the post.

But basically what this guy said

n3ss said:

Ermm, I love SFIII:TS. God...I would love another SFIII update...it's not gonna happen though. Always imagining how awesome it would be for a SFIII style Zangief or Sagat fighting Hugo. :D

Need to read rest of damn thread...hang on, they've not added PARRIES INTO SSFIV?! :O

*runs off to read last few pages.
 

KAL2006

Banned
The only thing Im scared of is the lack of new stages, new stages make the game feel new and fresh, SF4 had too few stages and im already tired of seeing them. I loved Alpha 2 where every character had there own stages and classic music
 

arstal

Whine Whine FADC Troll
n3ss said:

The reason those chars are broken is

Yun- Genei-Jin. Tiny meter, does massive damage, and can refill damage to half at the end, and it's hit-confirmable to boot off a jab chain.

Chun- most damage off a parry /random poke in the game, and all day to cancel into the super.

Ken- see Chun. Just not as good, a little worse.

Urien, Makoto- best characters to get around parries. They still lose out to the top 3 though


Option selecting isn't why the balance is broken, though it's still a horribly stupid mechanic.

If they added 3s-style parries into SF4, I would not buy the game- that's how I feel about them. FA's are a good mechanic.
 

DigiMish

Member
What people don't understand is doing crazy parry shit like in the videos takes lots of practice. It's one thing to watch a video and say - "oh man, all they're doing is pressing one button at the right time - I can do that!", and another to actually learning everyone's moves and react accordingly to them.
 

Teknoman

Member
The rival themes were awesome, but they needed to at least include the option for them to appear in versus mode.

Focus attacks seem to work better than parries, if only for the simple fact that anyone can do them.
 

KAL2006

Banned
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
Fixed it for you.

And I agree

NOT every Street Fighter. Third Strike had a few shared stages, so did Alpha 1. But you are right the rest of the games had every character having different stages.
 
abstract alien said:
As far as close quarters fighting goes, you would only get caught in a parry if your opponent predicted your next move, right? Im asking, not trying to be a smartass or anything. Ive never understood the concept that parrying did more harm than good, especially after failing to do it properly and having half of my life gauge destroyed because of my mistake.

In order to understand the Parry's effect on close quarters combat, you have to understand the theory behind Street Fighter's footsies (in non 3s games that is.)

In SF, the counter to a blocking opponent is to walk up and throw them. The counter to that is pressing an attack button to prevent the throw from occurring. Here then is where footsies begin. In close range, the tension arises from two players trying to figure out when the other person is going to press a button. The player pressing action has two options, either to walk forward in range and press a button right before the other player does and thus hitting them, or walking in then back outside the other players max distance right after they whiff an attack and punishing accordingly, AKA whiff punishing. The counter to whiff punishing then, is walking forward.

Ok now HERE is where parries come into play. Walking forward presents a risk in both options. To the offensive player, you face the risk of getting hit by a poke, to the player countering the whiff punisher, you risk getting hit by him as well. Either way, walking forward in footsies range presents a risk/reward of gaining ground or getting hit. Parries take all that risk and metagame out. The player walking forward with parries has the ability to simply walk forward and mash down without worrying when exactly the other person is going to press a poke attack. The forward walk is protected by parry system since the player can intermittently press down while walking. On the converse, they can stay right outside of footsies range and simply pressing down and walking back/forward. Capcom's intent for their system changed then from a player predicting exactly what the other person is going to do and parrying it, instead to figuring out whether or not the other player is TRYING to parry, because if they want to, then they will.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one is wrong or the other is right, but 3s doesn't have the footsies game that any of the other SF's had, it's just different. That's also a big reason why a lot of 3s players are 3s players only, and players that played other SF's and preferred them tend to stay away from 3s(ex choi).
 

KAL2006

Banned
If the rumors are true that every character has 2 Ultras, wouldnt that make the game too unpredictable and more defensive, for example lets say Zangief also has a Ultra Anti Air move, that means I would have to watchout when jumping above Zangief aswell as watching out for the Spinning Piledriver Ultra. Wouldnt it be better if the Ultras were selectable, similar to Third Strike (so I can concentrate on just watching out for 1 Ultra)
 
SuperStreetFighterIV_Juri.jpg


Haha!

Not Ibuki.

I love it when I'm right.

Unfortunately this character looks like shit like every one SF4 had added to the roster. Is Capcom just accepting fan submissions for characters these days or some shit?

Torso looks like that pink chick from Star Gladiators.
 

-PXG-

Member
So who is going to stay up to watch the video when it goes up? I might. Just need to get some Red Bull and play some ODST Firefight to keep me awake :lol
 

Teknoman

Member
The Take Out Bandit said:
SuperStreetFighterIV_Juri.jpg


Haha!

Not Ibuki.

I love it when I'm right.

Unfortunately this character looks like shit like every one SF4 had added to the roster. Is Capcom just accepting fan submissions for characters these days or some shit?

Torso looks like that pink chick from Star Gladiators.

Hey lay off Abel and El Fuerte.
 

KAL2006

Banned
The Take Out Bandit said:
SuperStreetFighterIV_Juri.jpg


Haha!

Not Ibuki.

I love it when I'm right.

Unfortunately this character looks like shit like every one SF4 had added to the roster. Is Capcom just accepting fan submissions for characters these days or some shit?

Torso looks like that pink chick from Star Gladiators.

I thought all the new characters looked cool and had cool movesets excluding Rufus. I think nostalgia is making you blind (SF2 cast is generic as fuck). Seriously a skinny indian with curry breath thats so hot he can breath out fire, a generic japanese dud in a karate uniform, a typical fat sumo wrestler, an american soldier with a stupid 80s haircut, a native american with a stupid stance, a jamaican who keeps smiling and loves music, a mike tyson lookalike boxer, a typical bruce lee clone.
 
FindMyFarms said:
In order to understand the Parry's effect on close quarters combat, you have to understand the theory behind Street Fighter's footsies (in non 3s games that is.)

In SF, the counter to a blocking opponent is to walk up and throw them. The counter to that is pressing an attack button to prevent the throw from occurring. Here then is where footsies begin. In close range, the tension arises from two players trying to figure out when the other person is going to press a button. The player pressing action has two options, either to walk forward in range and press a button right before the other player does and thus hitting them, or walking in then back outside the other players max distance right after they whiff an attack and punishing accordingly, AKA whiff punishing. The counter to whiff punishing then, is walking forward.

Ok now HERE is where parries come into play. Walking forward presents a risk in both options. To the offensive player, you face the risk of getting hit by a poke, to the player countering the whiff punisher, you risk getting hit by him as well. Either way, walking forward in footsies range presents a risk/reward of gaining ground or getting hit. Parries take all that risk and metagame out. The player walking forward with parries has the ability to simply walk forward and mash down without worrying when exactly the other person is going to press a poke attack. The forward walk is protected by parry system since the player can intermittently press down while walking. On the converse, they can stay right outside of footsies range and simply pressing down and walking back/forward. Capcom's intent for their system changed then from a player predicting exactly what the other person is going to do and parrying it, instead to figuring out whether or not the other player is TRYING to parry, because if they want to, then they will.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one is wrong or the other is right, but 3s doesn't have the footsies game that any of the other SF's had, it's just different. That's also a big reason why a lot of 3s players are 3s players only, and players that played other SF's and preferred them tend to stay away from 3s(ex choi).
Hmmm, this puts things into perspective a bit more, but I guess my main issue is that I havent really seen this type of thing in high level play. Either that, or it happens a lot and Im unaware of what to look for exactly. Very well said Farms.

Also, does anyone have info on the file sizes for sf4 as far as overall disk space, as well as individual characters and such?
 
Arde5643 said:
In theory, yes, that's what parry should've done.

Option select parry just makes the playable characters be limited to mostly 3-4 characters in high level tourney play though.

Again, SF3 is such a beautiful and dynamic game to look at, I just think the game's system limits the type of characters playable in the game.

Option select parry has nothing to do with Yun, Ken, and Chun running the game.

Yun is top tier because of his broken ass super that fills up in two seconds and can do 50+ percent damage. Ken is just strong as hell + a damn good super. Chuns super is extremely strong and has the easiest combo in the game off a strong as poke (you can even late, late cancel that son of a bitch to still land).

Not to mention other stuff that makes these characters too damn strong. Chun Li kara throw, Ken target super, lk lk super, etc. etc.

People need to bitch less about parrying, more about these broken ass characters.

3rd Strike needed a balance so bad. A 4th Strike with nerfs of the top 5 would have been a perfect game.
 

KAL2006

Banned
-PXG- said:
So who is going to stay up to watch the video when it goes up? I might. Just need to get some Red Bull and play some ODST Firefight to keep me awake :lol

What video, are they really going to show a video, if so how long until they show (GMT time here). I hope it isnt just footage of the new girl and T Hawk
 
Arpharmd B said:
People need to bitch less about parrying, more about these broken ass characters.

3rd Strike needed a balance so bad. A 4th Strike with buffs to everyone outside of the top 5 would have been a perfect game.
fixed
 

n3ss

aka acr0nym
FindMyFarms said:
In order to understand the Parry's effect on close quarters combat, you have to understand the theory behind Street Fighter's footsies (in non 3s games that is.)

In SF, the counter to a blocking opponent is to walk up and throw them. The counter to that is pressing an attack button to prevent the throw from occurring. Here then is where footsies begin. In close range, the tension arises from two players trying to figure out when the other person is going to press a button. The player pressing action has two options, either to walk forward in range and press a button right before the other player does and thus hitting them, or walking in then back outside the other players max distance right after they whiff an attack and punishing accordingly, AKA whiff punishing. The counter to whiff punishing then, is walking forward.

Ok now HERE is where parries come into play. Walking forward presents a risk in both options. To the offensive player, you face the risk of getting hit by a poke, to the player countering the whiff punisher, you risk getting hit by him as well. Either way, walking forward in footsies range presents a risk/reward of gaining ground or getting hit. Parries take all that risk and metagame out. The player walking forward with parries has the ability to simply walk forward and mash down without worrying when exactly the other person is going to press a poke attack. The forward walk is protected by parry system since the player can intermittently press down while walking. On the converse, they can stay right outside of footsies range and simply pressing down and walking back/forward. Capcom's intent for their system changed then from a player predicting exactly what the other person is going to do and parrying it, instead to figuring out whether or not the other player is TRYING to parry, because if they want to, then they will.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one is wrong or the other is right, but 3s doesn't have the footsies game that any of the other SF's had, it's just different. That's also a big reason why a lot of 3s players are 3s players only, and players that played other SF's and preferred them tend to stay away from 3s(ex choi).

Don't forget I could anticipate a parry, and still counter it. For example; I am Ken, I low forward and buffer in a shoryuken, you parry the first hit and get hit by my shoryuken. I love 3s :D
 

chrissedoff

Neo Member
I'll keep hoping in vain that the rumoured roster isn't 100% and that Elena will sneak in there somehow (totally the coolest character from SF3 you guys)
...and that I won't have to buy a whole new disc at full price. Jesus Christ, I thought ODST was kind of taking advantage of me, but this just takes the cake.

Most of all I pray that there are no parries. That's the one thing that would keep me from buying Street Fighter IV Champion's Edition. Because I still don't know how to do them.
 
abstract alien said:
Hmmm, this puts things into perspective a bit more, but I guess my main issue is that I havent really seen this type of thing in high level play. Either that, or it happens a lot and Im unaware of what to look for exactly. Very well said Farms.

Also, does anyone have info on the file sizes for sf4 as far as overall disk space, as well as individual characters and such?

It's affects the gameplay more along the lines that since its present it changes the application of other characters/players tools, in the same vein that if Sagat has ultra, you'll never see the other player jump in.
 
n3ss said:
Don't forget I could anticipate a parry, and still counter it. For example; I am Ken, I low forward and buffer in a shoryuken, you parry the first hit and get hit by my shoryuken. I love 3s :D

FindMyFarms said:
Capcom's intent for their system changed then from a player predicting exactly what the other person is going to do and parrying it, instead to figuring out whether or not the other player is TRYING to parry, because if they want to, then they will.

Ya I covered that :p
 
abstract alien said:
Hmmm, this puts things into perspective a bit more, but I guess my main issue is that I havent really seen this type of thing in high level play. Either that, or it happens a lot and Im unaware of what to look for exactly. Very well said Farms.

That's the thing though. This is all theory fighter. The thing that makes theory fighter funny is that at the end of the day, the person trying to "prove" parrying is bad is never right. There is no "good" or "bad". It is what it is.

Usually the argument comes down to "well, it was like this in SF2 and since its like this in SF3 its just plain wrong". As if SF2 was this beacon of perfect light like god himself. Thats the flaw you find in the logic, everytime.

The bottom line is, parry is just another thing that makes the game deeper. Most old school players that are "against it" would never admit that the game is just harder, and requires deeper strategy. No. They will run circles and circles in arguing because they will never admit that.

Now saying that parry eliminates zoning, footsies and stuff like that, that is a JOKE to anyone who played/plays 3rd Strike. The whole damn game is zoning footsies execution mindgames. It's just got an extra element that you need to account for. It makes the game harder to play. It's a more hardcore SF, and they will never admit that, but it's true. It turns a lot of people off of the game. Some people (especially the old, oldschool) are just too set in their old ways, so they don't like it. Well, oh well, their loss, they missed out on an amazing game.

Street Fighter is a ton more basic without parries, thats for sure. It was a brilliant system. Now, again I will say, I like 4 without parries. I love the game for what it is, and it has balance that puts 3rd Strike to shame (ZERO 8-2 matchups).
 

n3ss

aka acr0nym
Arpharmd B said:
Now saying that parry eliminates zoning, footsies and stuff like that, that is a JOKE to anyone who played/plays 3rd Strike.

Who's saying that? There is definitely zoning and the like in 3s.
 
Arpharmd B said:
That's the thing though. This is all theory fighter. The thing that makes theory fighter funny is that at the end of the day, the person trying to "prove" parrying is bad is just an idiot. There is no "good" or "bad". It is what it is.

Now saying that parry eliminates zoning, footsies and stuff like that, that is a JOKE to anyone who played/plays 3rd Strike. The whole damn game is zoning footsies execution mindgames. It's just got an extra element that you need to account for. It makes the game harder to play. It's a more hardcore SF, and they will never admit that, but it's true. It turns a lot of people off of the game. Some people (especially the old, oldschool) are just too set in their old ways, so they don't like it. Well, oh well, their loss, they missed out on an amazing game.

Street Fighter is a ton more basic without parries, thats for sure. It was a brilliant system. Now, again I will say, I like 4 without parries. I love the game for what it is, and it has balance that puts 3rd Strike to shame (ZERO 8-2 matchups).

Theory fighter is person x does this so Imma do this. What I posted explains the system at a fundamental level. I'm not sure if you're calling me out, but all I did was post why close quarters combat in 3s w/ parries is completely different from other SF's.

edit - Also parries add a different type of depth, but doesn't necessarily make the game deeper. Ask any well rounded competitive player which game is the hardest/deepest to play at top level and they'll all tell you CvS2. I know it's not a classical SF game but it's in the same vein for the most part.
 
n3ss said:
Who's saying that? There is definitely zoning and the like in 3s.

Well the way I read some of the comments in here it was like with parry you don't gotta worry. I can just walk forward without fear! No risk whatsoever if I press down and he goes high. No, sir. Magical option selecting means I don't have to worry about anything. I'm covered in all circumstances!

Bring on Daigo. I got my parry, I'm ready.
 
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