Support NeoGAF

[lemon__fresh]

let's not forget Sagat is currently the only known char that has retained most, if not all of his DP trade bullshit.

Basically, I have zero sympathy for any shotos or shoto-like chars getting nerfs. The gameplay system heavily favored them in vanilla, good to see that the playing field might be evened up. My only problem is why they decided to take out DeeJay's EX dread kick > ultra.

Cause capcom loves FADC > ultra a little too much.

 

[qcf x2]

i like how people are like yeah "he will still be good sure!" but have no explanation as to why. instead you get scrubby ass answers like "ppl only pick him so they could win easier".

I like how people are all 1337 calling logical reaction "scrubby ass answers." As opposed to the sky is falling, I'm jumping ship, kramerimout.gif



If you really think he'll be garbage tier (or even "not good") then you're hyperventilating.

 

[Arpharmd B]

Most people give me the same response -- how could he be weak if he was so good in OG 4? At first you think the scaled back damage output isnt a big deal, but all those 5-5 and 6-4 match ups he had are either now not in his favor or dead even.

I think he will still do well in certain match ups, but a lot of players will be left wondering why they went overboard with him instead of just making a couple tweaks like they did with Ryu.

Sagat had no bad matchups in vanilla. None. He is the only character like this in the game. He was even in 1. Akuma. His second even one would be another Sagat.

So now he's losing to Akuma, and maybe all his 6-4's are 5-5's now. This is bad, how? If his 7-3's are now 6-4's, this still leaves him in the upper tier with Boxer/Rufus/Gief/New Ryu/Akuma.

You make it seem as though Sagat now having even matchups is this evil thing. God forbid he might even have some losing ones, you know, just like the rest of the roster.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Not ride the gate all the time?

But it's so easy! I just get lost with those up forward motions... :-(

 

[HiResDes]

Dudley is going to be much scarier than Sagat ever was by the sounds of things unless Capcom changes shit.

 

[Nakazato]

i played SF4 for the 1st time in almost a month or 2 i am so out of practice

 

[Killa Sasa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZKJPVS1OiQ

Looks like that Italian blog just uploaded something again, a training vid with CQC, Gen Claw and Dic.

Give it about 15 minutes, it's still post-processing. But I thought I'd share some sleuthing.

Edit: I can't make it out for sure, but if CQC only does 478, Capcom can go to hell.

 

[FindMyFarms]

Sagat had no bad matchups in vanilla. None. He is the only character like this in the game. He was even in 1. Akuma. His second even one would be another Sagat.

So now he's losing to Akuma, and maybe all his 6-4's are 5-5's now. This is bad, how? If his 7-3's are now 6-4's, this still leaves him in the upper tier with Boxer/Rufus/Gief/New Ryu/Akuma.

You make it seem as though Sagat now having even matchups is this evil thing. God forbid he might even have some losing ones, you know, just like the rest of the roster.

Nah a lot of people had akuma over sagat. And Sagat did have a lot of even matchups, though of course outside of those he WON every single matchup :lol :lol

 

[Arpharmd B]

Dudley is going to be much scarier than Sagat ever was by the sounds of things unless Capcom changes shit.

Well he could be top tier, but it's going to be for completely different reasons than Sagat.

Sagat was never scary. Rufus is scary. Sagat is just stupid. Fuck up once and say goodbye to your lifebar. That's Sagat. Keep away, that's Sagat.

Dudley is a rushdown character. He needs to get in. He doesn't have a get-in-for-free card like Rufus and the divekick. I mean we'll see. He's gunna be good but I don't think his damage output is high enough to be broken.

 

[KittenMaster]

Sagat can still TU trade into roundhouse ultra. Timing/spacing just looks a little more strict.

I'm actually happy about this for Sagat considering how badly he got nerfed.

 

[Threi]

:lol @ Claw

"eeeeeyoooooooowwwwwww!"

It looks like they fixed EX PC's super armor

although it's messed up at certain distances, who knows.

*edit*

SRK can beat bison's U2 clean...what the fuck

 

[Arpharmd B]

Nah a lot of people had akuma over sagat. And Sagat did have a lot of even matchups, though of course outside of those he WON every single matchup :lol :lol

Well maybe I'm wrong. I'd probably be salty too if I were a Sagat user.

But as a Rufus player the thought that Sagat v. Rufus could go from a 7-3 (depending on who you ask) to a 6-4 or a 6-4 to a 5-5 (EVEN!) makes me wetter than a 13 year old girl at a New Kids on the Block concert in 1987.

By that same token I am happy about Sakura and Chun Li buffs, and the SS and Messiah nerfs. I'm sick and tired of walking all over them.

 

[Diablohead]

When SSF4 comes out and I whoop up on a Sagat, I'm going to send a message saying "those Tigger Uppercuts tickle."

 

[tapedeck]

This is a bit random, but does anyone know if the outfit colors all stayed the same for the returning characters or are there some new ones for Super? I was kinda hoping we'd get some new ones added for this iteration like they have done in the past.

Spoiler

Im assuming no

 

[Arde5643]

:lol @ Claw

"eeeeeyoooooooowwwwwww!"

It looks like they fixed EX PC's super armor

although it's messed up at certain distances, who knows.

*edit*

SRK can trade with bison's U2...what the fuck

My guess is U2 is only useful against fireballs or for mix-ups on wake-ups against SRK lacking opponents.

 

[Threi]

My guess is U2 is only useful against fireballs or for mix-ups on wake-ups against SRK lacking opponents.

Bison does just fine without an ultra against SRK lacking opponents though :lol

 

[Hitokage]

My guess is U2 is only useful against fireballs or for mix-ups on wake-ups against SRK lacking opponents.

You can also cross up with it, so if your timing and spacing are excellent I can see it being powerful.

 

[Killa Sasa]

CQC is terrible confirmed. It doesn't even protect her backside :lol? WTF were they thinking with this shit.

I think the VA's were being dicks when they gave Cammy and Fei the U2 lines "Here's a present for you" and "Come at me from any direction you like" :/ Ironic douches.

 

[KittenMaster]

"Here's a present for you"

OH BOY OH BOY I LOVE FREE DAMAGE!!!

 

[Arde5643]

CQC is terrible confirmed. It doesn't even protect her backside :lol? WTF were they thinking with this shit.

I think the VA's were being dicks when they gave Cammy and Fei the U2 lines "Here's a present for you" and "Come at me from any direction you like" :/ Ironic douches.

If counter ultra actually protects against armor breakers at least, I can see it being used.

What a waste.

 

[XenoRaven]

I, for one, never want to see Cammy's backside protected.

 

[marathonfool]

What are the inputs for those counter Ultras? It would seem useful if is was like down + PPP or something. You could do it on reaction.

Does it counter jump-ins?

 

[KittenMaster]

If counter ultra actually protects against armor breakers at least, I can see it being used.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news... Counter Ultras do get armor broken much like Gouken's counter.

Does it counter jump-ins?

If Cammy's "backside" isn't protected, then I'm guessing they're vulnerable to cross ups.

 

[Ledsen]

i like how people are like yeah "he will still be good sure!" but have no explanation as to why. instead you get scrubby ass answers like "ppl only pick him so they could win easier".

im done discussing this, you'll guys see soon enough.

Dude no worries you'll be owning fools left and right in SSF4 no matter the char, right? I'd be cool to play you on haunts vs the world sometime, but the lag would be horrible and you'd own me just like you did back in Tokyo... lol

 

[Arde5643]

@AZ Greg:

Just received info that you'll no doubt be loving every second of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZKJPVS1OiQ
So the testers of this video posted this in the comments section:

Eh! Dictator is not my character, so we tried simple things. We hope you'll like this video Ah! we tried even Claw's somersault kick into Ultra I. It works But our camera didn't record it (not enough space on the SD -_-).

Shit, Claw's f'in legit now. :lol

 

[Devid905]

Comment from youtube:

Eh! Dictator is not my character, so we tried simple things. We hope you'll like this video Ah! we tried even Claw's somersault kick into Ultra I. It works But our camera didn't record it (not enough space on the SD -_-).

Rejoice, Vega players!

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Sagat had no bad matchups in vanilla. None. He is the only character like this in the game. He was even in 1. Akuma. His second even one would be another Sagat.

So now he's losing to Akuma, and maybe all his 6-4's are 5-5's now. This is bad, how? If his 7-3's are now 6-4's, this still leaves him in the upper tier with Boxer/Rufus/Gief/New Ryu/Akuma.

You make it seem as though Sagat now having even matchups is this evil thing. God forbid he might even have some losing ones, you know, just like the rest of the roster.

Sagat having even matchups is fine. I still don't get the justification for ruining his s.short though. I thought the TU damage is a little much, but can live with it. Lowering his hp a bit is fine.

And Akuma is a bad matchup for Sagat. I still think a really good Gouken can be troublesome also. Hard to zone with tiger shots cause he can fly right through that shit and has a fast projectile himself. Then he has the parry when trying to put pressure on him. Meh

 

[haunts]

I like how people are all 1337 calling logical reaction "scrubby ass answers." As opposed to the sky is falling, I'm jumping ship, kramerimout.gif



If you really think he'll be garbage tier (or even "not good") then you're hyperventilating.

did you even read the laundry list of why sagat is weak now? ive only been posting my opinion on it for the past 5 pages. if you have some counter argument, go for it, until then stop jumping like a noob and learn some footsies.

Sagat had no bad matchups in vanilla. None. He is the only character like this in the game. He was even in 1. Akuma. His second even one would be another Sagat.

So now he's losing to Akuma, and maybe all his 6-4's are 5-5's now. This is bad, how? If his 7-3's are now 6-4's, this still leaves him in the upper tier with Boxer/Rufus/Gief/New Ryu/Akuma.

You make it seem as though Sagat now having even matchups is this evil thing. God forbid he might even have some losing ones, you know, just like the rest of the roster.

Where are getting all this data that all his match ups are even now in Super? Threi is going to be thrilled when he can get in that ass in Super with Bison with aboslutley no repercussions.

Akuma is a bad match up for Sagat, i dont care what people say. Shit, go watch Momochi vs Mago if you dont believe me. Even characters like Abel give Sagat a lot of problems unless you know ever little nuance of the match up. The only match up that is truly "free" for him are probably Zangief.

I have no problem with game balancing, but they made Sagat weak now. Do you guys understand ALL of his uppercuts do 100 damage now unless he uses a stock of EX meter? Do you understand that he already has limited footsies and now they stripped him of one of his best tools to keep other players out? Yes, he will still do good in some match ups but you have to compare how they balanced Ryu, which was done well, with how they "balanced" Sagat.

 

[FindMyFarms]

did you even read the laundry list of why sagat is weak now? ive only been posting my opinion on it for the past 5 pages. if you have some counter argument, go for it, until then stop jumping like a noob and learn some footsies.

no thnx, im jus gonna keep hatin on dat pirate

But as a Rufus player the thought that Sagat v. Rufus could go from a 7-3 (depending on who you ask) to a 6-4 or a 6-4 to a 5-5 (EVEN!) makes me wetter than a 13 year old girl at a New Kids on the Block concert in 1987.

No, general consensus from top akuma and sagat players didn't range anywhere near what you're implying. The majority of Japan say akuma sagat is at least 5.5-4.5, and a lot of america says akuma beats sagat.

@ Kintaro - Sagat/Fuerte is dead even, that's probably why. Sagat has a phat hit box that makes everything ambiguous, he's an easy target for RSF, and throw option off run is completely safe against him, you get a hard counter punish on reaction, and ultra punish on jump. Fuerte has a pretty easy time getting in on Sagat as well to get his mixup going.

 

[Kintaro]

Oddly, I never had a problem with Sagat as El Fuerte. He was a fun match up. That's really my only knowledge of fighting him. I know he was strong, but I didn't think he was absurd or anything. I hated Gief more. Fucker. =(

 

[Kadey]

Doesn't this mean there will be dozens more tiger shots during matches? NNNNNOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooo~!

 

[BitchTits]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZKJPVS1OiQ

Looks like that Italian blog just uploaded something again, a training vid with CQC, Gen Claw and Dic.

From what I've seen of them, I don't think I'll be using Gens new Ultras for any length of time, they don't look anywhere near as useful as the existing ones. I guess the air one could come in handy, probably combo-able from wall kick like the others?

 

[qcf x2]

did you even read the laundry list of why sagat is weak now? ive only been posting my opinion on it for the past 5 pages. if you have some counter argument, go for it, until then stop jumping like a noob and learn some footsies.




Where are getting all this data that all his match ups are even now in Super? Threi is going to be thrilled when he can get in that ass in Super with Bison with aboslutley no repercussions.

Akuma is a bad match up for Sagat, i dont care what people say. Shit, go watch Momochi vs Mago if you dont believe me. Even characters li

When SSF4 is out and Sagat is a documented barely viable, low tier character I will more than gladly acknowledge that you are (were) not overreacting and that I am a scrub/n00b/whatever. And I can't learn something I already know, but I will review my footsie notes. :lol

Until then, I'm jus gonna keep hatin on dat pirate.

 

[LowParry]

Jesus Christ. Claw's aiming for S-tier. Probably will only make A but still...

Ultra 2 though. I wonder if it will work the same with Sakura's Ultra 1 with aerials. Claw's got a load of options now. So many ideas though. Soooo many. Good lord, the damage on Ultra 2 though.

 

[Pandaman]

come at me from any direction!
*crossup*

 

[KaYotiX]

Doesn't this mean there will be dozens more tiger shots during matches? NNNNNOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooo~!

Bring it on, as a Chun player i love shotos that just spam fireballs assuming i can ultra thorugh them in Super still.

 

[Arde5643]

Jesus Christ. Claw's aiming for S-tier. Probably will only make A but still...

Ultra 2 though. I wonder if it will work the same with Sakura's Ultra 1 with aerials. Claw's got a load of options now. So many ideas though. Soooo many. Good lord, the damage on Ultra 2 though.

I doubt even A or S tier - remember that Claw still has sucky reversals.

But what this does now is give Claw actually a good reason to use more focus attacks since his ultras are actually good now.



Same thing with Guile actually - he actually has a reason to do focus attacks other than just advancing and absorbing fireballs now since his U2 is pretty safe and comes out pretty quick.

 

[kitzkozan]

Jesus Christ. Claw's aiming for S-tier. Probably will only make A but still...

Ultra 2 though. I wonder if it will work the same with Sakura's Ultra 1 with aerials. Claw's got a load of options now. So many ideas though. Soooo many. Good lord, the damage on Ultra 2 though.

That's why it's way too soon to do tier projection.

This game will surely be more balanced than vanilla,but it also mean that it's very hard to predict where everyone will end up.

Only thing I will predict is: a lot of character will be competitive,more than any Capcom FG to this point.

 

[FindMyFarms]

But what this does now is give Claw actually a good reason to use more focus attacks since his ultras are actually good now.

Huh? Claw always used focus attacks when played properly, he still got decent damage off of it. DH + Rh ex claw dive, and on the characters it hit st. fierce -> cr. strong xx ex dive (about 300 damage) His FA has a lot of range too.

 

[haunts]

When SSF4 is out and Sagat is a documented barely viable, low tier character I will more than gladly acknowledge that you are (were) not overreacting and that I am a scrub/n00b/whatever. And I can't learn something I already know, but I will review my footsie notes. :lol

Until then, I'm jus gonna keep hatin on dat pirate.

I didnt say barely viable low tier, I said he is weak, in that he does very little damage now. I dont see Zangief, THawk Fei Long or any of those bums ever really giving him much of a problem I just dont agree with the direction they took him in Super. As I said before, there wasn't a whole lot that needed to be tweaked -- he was a fun character with a solid set of tools -- and they could have just applied the same sort of changes that they made to Ryu to him and everything would have been fine.

If anything, some of his new tools will probably make him easier to play on a basic level. EX Scar pauses the screen allowing you to check the opponent, giving you an extra split second to look for jumps and whatever else and punish them with a beefy 180pt uppercut. Tiger Cannon is really versatile in a number of different match ups as well.

All thats fine and dandy but at the end of the day is almost dosent matter if he cant put the hurt on the other guy simply fucking up. If there is no threat of taking any real damage, there isnt going to be a lot to stop other characters from just pushing him into a corner and going to town.

 

[LowParry]

Huh? Claw always used focus attacks when played properly, he still got decent damage off of it. DH + Rh ex claw dive, and on the characters it hit st. fierce -> cr. strong xx ex dive (about 300 damage) His FA has a lot of range too.

I was gonna say, if Claw players ain't using FA...quit...

 

[Wiseblade]

Oddly, I never had a problem with Sagat as El Fuerte. He was a fun match up. That's really my only knowledge of fighting him. I know he was strong, but I didn't think he was absurd or anything. I hated Gief more. Fucker. =(

I'm the opposite. Virtually all of Gief's non-grab options are punishable on block (some of them even on hit) and takes lots of damage after a KD. Sagat OTOH, annoyed me to no end.

 

[Pop On Arrival]

I think Viper will go to fucking town on Sagat in super, too. I mean seriously, even with 1100HP everytime viper lands a combo I cringe. Not to mention I hate how Tiger uppercut is pretty much useless in that matchup.

Taking away his tools and in part taking away some of the shit that made him fun was a terrible idea. I don't care what anyone says, pushing that meterless fat fuck Rufus into a corner with tiger knee strings when he's out of meter is fucking fun. I don't care if the Rufus player is raging, he gets a free get out of jail card once he builds up meter anyway.

 

[qcf x2]

Don't forget ultra damage is nerfed all around. Viper will probably move up a bit but her combos won't be as damaging.

 

[Threi]

Threi is going to be thrilled when he can get in that ass in Super with Bison with aboslutley no repercussions.

No I'll be thrilled that bison (and any other char) can start a good offense except when the opponent has meter, something that wasn't universal to all chars in vanilla. It's one thing not to jump in on a character who has an anti-air special, it's another thing when you can't pressure characters who don't have bar because they can hit that special at any time. No charging or attempting to time it or anything. EX meter is a big "whoa better back off" sign for every other fucking character in the game (and even then other chars have to time the charge right or they eat some more damage) except those blessed with a nice high-priority mashable move. Having that shit go away evens the field for all characters.

And like I said he seems to be the only char so far that can still deal respectable damage off trades, something that is a HUGE advantage in vanilla.

The wildcard in this game is Dudley. He seems to have been overlooked balance-wise so far, but we will see when the game is actually in our hands. I trust Capcom enough.

*edit*

Has the properties on tigershot, tiger knee, or any of his normals changed? Genuinely curious. I was under the assumption that his zoning game, amazing projectiles, high priority specials, high health, and high damage led to matchups going in his favor. Are all of those going? The high health and high damage output are things that didn't balance him, but rather unbalance him. His slow footspeed and rather poor pokes were offset by his good great awesome specials. Only matchup that won't be in sagat's favor at all anymore is Akuma. He can still zone the fuck out of everyone else.

Anyways its stupid arguing over a Sagat nerf, it was deserved and expected. We need to know what's going on with Gen and Guile.

 

[KittenMaster]

Don't forget ultra damage is nerfed all around. Viper will probably move up a bit but her combos won't be as damaging.

Is there any sort of analysis that proves that most older ultras are toned down in damage? I've only seen it in some new Ultras so far.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

smh @ goukens only known changes being that he now says 'senkugoshoha' and 'tatsumaki senpuu kyaku' instead of grunting like he's got irritable bowel syndrome. They should have made him say "Get off my lawn!".

 

[haunts]

No I'll be thrilled that bison (and any other char) can start a good offense except when the opponent has meter, something that wasn't universal to all chars in vanilla.

And like I said he seems to be the only char so far that can still deal respectable damage off trades, something that is a HUGE advantage in vanilla.

The wildcard in this game is Dudley. He seems to have been overlooked balance-wise so far, but we will see when the game is actually in our hands. I trust Capcom enough.

*edit*

Has the properties on tigershot, tiger knee, or any of his normals changed? Genuinely curious. I was under the assumption that his zoning game, amazing projectiles, high priority specials, high health, and high damage led to matchups going in his favor. Are all of those going? The high health and high damage output are things that didn't balance him, but rather unbalance him. His slow footspeed and rather poor pokes were offset by his good great awesome specials. Only matchup that won't be in sagat's favor at all anymore is Akuma. He can still zone the fuck out of everyone else.

Anyways its stupid arguing over a Sagat nerf, it was deserved and expected. We need to know what's going on with Gen and Guile.

Trust me dude, you'll love his new ultra. TRUST MEEE!!

A lot of his specials are all the same but do very minimal damage across the board. I think initially you will groan but after a couple macthes you'll see that you still have 25%-50% of your health left when you should be dead and see that it's a whole new ball game.

I'm just going to go ahead and say it: Bison will be a real bad match up for Sagat as long as he chooses Ultra 2.

 

[Threi]

I'm just going to go ahead and say it: Bison will be a real bad match up for Sagat as long as he chooses Ultra 2.

I would agree actually (well not real bad, probably still even). Bison can use the U2 threat to get in much easier, something that made the matchup sway in Sagat's favor in vanilla.

 

[haunts]

I would agree actually (well not real bad, probably still even). Bison can use the U2 threat to get in much easier, something that made the matchup sway in Sagat's favor in vanilla.

Its one of the reasons the Abel match up and to some degree the Chun Li match ups can be a real pain in the ass for Sagat because once you get that Ultra locked and loaded, it takes away his Tiger shot game which is obviously one of his best zoning tools.

I heard they buffed his Psycho Crusher too but im not sure how. Anyone know? I heard about it on the GB stream.