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The one thing you can't be in the Marvel Cinematic Universe -- Gay

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berzeli

Banned
The Marvel Cinematic Universe (henceforth 'MCU') is a pop-culture giant, both in terms of popularity and in the amount of content attached to it. To date it encompasses over 65 hours of content across ten feature films and three TV series. Not a single second of those is spent with an openly and clearly identified LGBT character. Being generous and counting a small scene in the credits of one of the short "bonus" films gives us less than a minute of LGBT inclusion in those 65+ hours of content. I should clarify that "being generous" entails taking a very short scene where it is (strongly) implied that a villainous character is not straight and make assumptions based on that. However implying it is one thing, outright stating it is quite another, so that still leaves us without a clearly identified LGBT character in the MCU. And even if we count said character that makes the only named LGBT character a villain which comes with its own baggage.

For a setting which is mostly based on contemporary America is is pretty damn notable that you can't find LGBT characters, not even as incidental characters in a single episode of one of the TV series. When Steven S. DeKnight was asked about this notable absence of gay characters in Daredevil he replied "You know Marvel is wonderfully inclusive, but you have to get there. You know I had a lot more freedom obviously with 'Spartacus' and I would like nothing more than to introduce more gay, lesbian and transgender characters. It’s just fitting it into that big model I think is going to be a slightly slow process. I totally agree." Which besides being a shitty non-answer makes it sound as if Marvel studios effectively have an outright ban on LGBT characters, I really hope that this isn't the case but I'm struggling to see any other explanation. We have several writers and directors whose previous work includes LGBT characters, seemingly they want to include LGBT characters, yet none are to be found in the MCU.

Why does representation matter?

We consume a lot of media, like really a lot. Whilst it isn't clear how or to what extent media affects us there is quite a lot that suggests that it is. One of the clearest examples for the type of situation which we are discussing is in a study called "Racial and Gender Differences in the Relationship Between Children’s Television Use and Self-Esteem: A Longitudinal Panel Study". Which, besides being a fun thing to say three times in a row out loud, states that "We found that television exposure predicted a decrease in self-esteem for all children except White boys." This is obviously not just due to television consumption but as the study also says "exposure to these messages serve to bolster the self-concept of White boys because their basis for comparison reveals that prestige, power, and wealth are commonplace and easily achievable for White males on television." Being able to find positive examples of people who are similar to how you perceive yourself unsurprisingly makes you feel better about yourself, something which really does matter for LGBT youth.

Which is where the part about there just being a villain who is LGBT becomes a bit problematic, since if we accept that positive portrayals have a positive influence there is a case for negative portrayal having a negative influence. Now this doesn't mean that every single portrayal of an LGBT character must be a wholly positive one, just that there probably shouldn't only be negative ones.

Does LGBT inclusion affect popularity?

There aren't any good studies on exactly how a show's or a film's popularity correlate with inclusion of LGBT characters. But the continued success of Game of Thrones, Arrow and The flash which is targeting pretty much the same audience show that inclusiveness does not significantly affect popularity. The latter two which are making conscious efforts with regards to diversity both on and off camera.

But X was like that in the comics, why change it?

The MCU is an adaption of, not a recreation of comics. There have already been quite a few things which have been altered, notably the ethnicity of Nick Fury. Adhering more strictly to the comics doesn't inherently make the films or shows better thus there is no reason to stick with something just for the sake of it being like that in the comics.


In conclusion, this isn't about making each Avengers film having at least ten minutes of Thor and Captain America making out (though now that I think about it...) it is about the MCU utterly failing to represent a significant portion of the population (and audience) for no good reason.
 
Well, it took about ten years to get a black lead and a female lead.

Give it another ten, you'll get a gay lead...

Ideally.

Honestly, even now I'm hardpressed to try and remember which Marvel characters are gay. Being gay shouldn't really be the main thing, just a part of them, right? People are more than their sexual orientation.

Edit: I came back to re-edit this because OP is wrong since the upcoming Netflix Jessica Jones show will have prominent lesbian relationship involving two supporting characters. There's a photo here:

TJmBsbM.jpg

Edit: Okay, not wrong-wrong. Just saying, it is happening. Slowly, but it's happening.
 

Elginer

Member
Well none of those characters are gay and if there's one thing I hate is reboots of characters where they're not even the same person anymore. Alan Scott I am looking at you!

There are gay characters in the Marvel Universe, whether they will make their way to the big screen is anyones guess.
 
I thought daredevil had several scenes where the dialogue didn't assume heterosexuality. Agent Carter also has some lesbian undertones at points. There's not a full on gay character yet but it's not like star trek where homosexuality just doesn't exist.
 
Well, it took about ten years to get a black lead and a female lead.

Give it another ten, you'll get a gay lead...

Ideally.

Forget about leads, there are no LGBT characters AT ALL.In the MCU, the concept doesn't even seem to exist.

Edit: The thread title is not really conducive to a reasonable discussion though.
 

Tesseract

Banned
i guess if there were rad lgbt characters (or any at all), they'd use them

i can't think of one, but my marvel knowledge comes from marvel v. capcom
 
So which Marvel character is gay you think? This is totally non-issue, how is it the MCU'S fault for not having LGBT representation?

Edit: If there's a gay character within the Marvel universe then great use him/her, I don't seem to recall any interesting enough to put on screen though.
 

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
The only gay characters I can think of off the top of my head are mutants. So I guess that's on FOX to figure that out and then society to not outright reject it.
 

Sheroking

Member
Well... yeah.

If you're not a lead, you probably don't have a love interest. If you are a lead, you were created 50+ years ago and have a pre-destined dance partner.

There is no representation, and that can probably change, but there's very little opportunity for it as well.
 

Slayven

Member
i guess if there were rad lgbt characters (or any at all), they'd use them

i can't think of one, but my marvel knowledge comes from marvel v. capcom

Off the top of my head.

Freedom Ring
Freed_Ring_HD.jpg


Hulkling and Wiccan

There was some subtext with She hulk and Jazinda
 

Mesoian

Member
PHYLA AND MOONDRAGON FOR GUARDIANS 2!!!!
phyla_moondragon.png


They should do something to make up for how dirty they did Phyla.

So dirty...
 

studyguy

Member
I've been reading through some older stuff in that marvel unlimited app. I saw some "Save the Date" ads for an issue where two guys get married. I think they were Xmen though... Not well versed enough to know though.
 

Mudcrab

Member
Singer could one-up them here with Northstar or the Mystique/Destiny angle.

Runaways and Young Avengers have introduced gay characters.

PHYLA AND MOONDRAGON FOR GUARDIANS 2!!!!
phyla_moondragon.png


They should do something to make up for how dirty they did Phyla.

So dirty...

If there's any justice in the world...
 
I'm not sure it's really fair to dump on Marvel for this. I get the complaint, though. Maybe once they get TV rolling it's something they can explore, but I highly doubt sexual orientation will ever come up in the movies, or anytime soon.

DCTV on the other hand gives approximately zero fucks and will present LGBT characters all day err day. Flash and Arrow both have significant supporting chars where they clearly identify as LGBT...and it's not their defining character trait.
 

VegiHam

Member
The problem with LGBT representation is that unlike including say female or black characters, you can't tell that say a minor character is LGBT unless the action or dialogue in some way confirms it. But 65 hours of content and nothing? Like, not even one side character? Other than subtext that a villan might like dudes. In prison. That's a little difficult to justify. And those comments from the daredevil guy are troubling...
 
Uh, also, OP and others, you're super-wrong.

Jessica Jones will have a prominent lesbian supporting character:

Girl playing Hellcat and Carrie Anne Moss' character will have a relationship.

TJmBsbM.jpg


You might not see it in the big spectacular flicks, but you're a heck of a lot more likely to see relationships on the television shows, which are part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which I think renders this thread... I dunno, but you're wrong.
 

VegiHam

Member
Uh, also, OP and others, you're super-wrong.

Jessica Jones will have a prominent lesbian supporting character:

Girl playing Hellcat and Carrie Anne Moss' character will have a relationship.

TJmBsbM.jpg


You might not see it in the big spectacular flicks, but you're a heck of a lot more likely to see relationships on the television shows, which are part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which I think renders this thread... I dunno, but you're wrong.
OP says there's no representation in the MCU. 'There's gunna be next year' doesn't make him wrong since it's not there yet. That's pretty cool though, glad to see something.
 

Somnid

Member
I don't think your title matches your content. There's nothing you presented that suggests a restriction, just that it has not happened (and you really read into that quote). As for the content, yeah, sure, I think most people at this point agree that even arbitrarily adding a gay character could be nice for representation purposes.
 

BLACKLAC

Member
Uh, also, OP and others, you're super-wrong.

Jessica Jones will have a prominent lesbian supporting character:

Girl playing Hellcat and Carrie Anne Moss' character will have a relationship.

TJmBsbM.jpg


You might not see it in the big spectacular flicks, but you're a heck of a lot more likely to see relationships on the television shows, which are part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which I think renders this thread... I dunno, but you're wrong.

Was just about to post this.
 

kirblar

Member
Wasn't Justin Hammer confirmed to be gay in that Mandarin one shot?
Yup, you're right.

The bigger issue is that there just aren't any big-name gay characters in the source material- and even then some of those are in the X-Men and unvailable.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
...It’s just fitting it into that big model I think is going to be a slightly slow process. I totally agree." Which besides being a shitty non-answer makes it sound as if Marvel studios effectively have an outright ban on LGBT characters, I really hope that this isn't the case but I'm struggling to see any other explanation.
I'm pretty sure this is not how logic works.

And yeah, as mentioned already, there are gay characters in the MCU already.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Nobody fucks, but like everybody flirts.

Natasha is basically the "unrealized sexual tension" device of every Marvel movie she is in.

Loki flirts with everyone. Shit, he flirts with Thor constantly. And in the comics Loki is pretty much 'I'll sleep with anything if I think it's attractive.'
 

berzeli

Banned
You're not wrong. But... when would it come up?

I mean, hey, maybe Crossbones is gay. He never says anything one way or another.

Yeah, it's not like there is a single character in the MCU who has a wife, girlfriend or a love interest. Nor are there any instances of a character mentioning his wife or girlfriend (or both) in passing. Nope, not at all. Also there are no kisses in any of the shows or films I mentioned.

So which Marvel character is gay you think? This is totally non-issue, how is it the MCU'S fault for not having LGBT representation?

I don't know, I don't read comics. I explained it in the OP that keeping something just for the sake of it being like so in the comics is a crap argument and one I'm not going to entertain.

It is a non-issue to you perhaps but that does not make it a non-issue.

Also it is the fault of the MCU because it doesn't have representation. I point out other properties with similar target audience and in the case of Arrow and The Flash a very similar setting. Somehow they manage to do it.

I thought daredevil had several scenes where the dialogue didn't assume heterosexuality. Agent Carter also has some lesbian undertones at points. There's not a full on gay character yet but it's not like star trek where homosexuality just doesn't exist.

"Lesbian undertones" and "dialogue not assuming heterosexuality" is vague at best, and does not in any way shape or form count as the MCU acknowledging the LGBT community.
 

Ri'Orius

Member
Well... yeah.

If you're not a lead, you probably don't have a love interest. If you are a lead, you were created 50+ years ago and have a pre-destined dance partner.

There is no representation, and that can probably change, but there's very little opportunity for it as well.

Eh, they could've done something in Agents of SHIELD. Plenty of new characters, plenty of airtime to give one of 'em a love interest subplot. Shoot, they could've made The Cellist a man; that'd've been a curveball.

EDIT:

I don't know, I don't read comics. I explained it in the OP that keeping something just for the sake of it being like so in the comics is a crap argument and one I'm not going to entertain.

If you make Spider-Man gay then you lose/have to significantly revamp Mary Jane and Gwen.

Changing Fury's race was pretty easy. Flipping an established character's sexual orientation has much deeper repercussions.

Shoot, it'd probably be easier to swap a character's gender at the same time. Patty Parker can still have MJ drama and whatnot. Although making Tonia Stark a sex-crazed lesbian might be seen as uncouth...
 

jgwhiteus

Member
Well, I guess it didn't happen in the MCU, but there actually was a hint of bisexuality for an MCU character - Howard Stark, father of Iron Man and compatriot of Captain America (and famed womanizer). It happened during the "Agent Carter" series, and while the script can definitely be read in a more platonic way, it was emphasized enough to give some viewers pause, and for the actors to acknowledge that was one way of interpreting Howard's feelings toward Captain America:

tumblr_nkeke5NiV21rbidupo2_250.gif

tumblr_nkeke5NiV21rbidupo1_400.gif
 

studyguy

Member
Yeah, but there was more implied screwing going on in the damned Justice League saturday morning cartoon 10 years ago than there is in the current MCU.

tumblr_lt1fc7OEF11qko1rio1_500.png


I honestly wouldn't know, most of my knowledge is relatively new in reading and watching, but just from what I've seen I'd be inclined to agree.
 

Veelk

Banned
I wonder if he had a crush on Tony then. You know, love-hate thing.

Just rewatched the scene to confirm. Justin Hammer is definitely gay. It happens during the credits, fyi, not the main oneshot.

He is talking about how he hates waking up to seeing magazine's of Pepper Pott's running Stark Industries. He talks about how he and Tony are brothers in arms (literally, arms dealers) and starts talking about his nice hair and stuff.

The guy he is talking to wraps his arm around him affectionately, which he shrugs off saying "not here, baby, not here."

So there you go. In 65+ collective hours, you have about about 2 seconds in a minute long scene where a washed up joke villain is heavily impled in being gay as the credits roll for the oneshot. Clearly, there is no problem of representation here.
 
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