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[Duane Cunningham]

Uh, also, OP and others, you're super-wrong.

Jessica Jones will have a prominent lesbian supporting character:

Girl playing Hellcat and Carrie Anne Moss' character will have a relationship.

You might not see it in the big spectacular flicks, but you're a heck of a lot more likely to see relationships on the television shows, which are part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which I think renders this thread... I dunno, but you're wrong.

And to add to this, there's going to be at least 14 hours of Jessica Jones, as opposed to the hour and a half that the movie characters get. Meaning her supporting characters will get way more screen time too. So whatever representation somebody wants, getting it on one of the TV series is better than in one of the movies.

 

[Astral Dog]

If they have one, it will be most likely a minor role or implied,you can have an stereotypical gay character. but these movies are, probably not very trustworthy to do these characters "well".

 

[BronsonLee]

Yeah, it's not like there is a single character in the MCU who has a wife, girlfriend or a love interest. Nor are there any instances of a character mentioning his wife or girlfriend (or both) in passing. Nope, not at all. Also there are no kisses in any of the shows or films I mentioned.

Are you requesting representation or equal representation (as in 1/1, relationship wise)? The only kisses/romance going on in the MCU are almost always between the two leads. Tony/Pepper, Cap/Peggy, Thor/Jane. Those are, for the most part, their predestined dance partners.

Beyond that, it rarely comes up in the movies, and it seems TV is starting to make inroads there.

Either way, the thread title is astoundingly incendiary.

 

[kirblar]

Was this confirmed or fanon?

I thought it was fanon early on, but at this point there's too many little things pointing to it for it to be a coincidence.

 

[berzeli]

Uh, also, OP and others, you're super-wrong.

Jessica Jones will have a prominent lesbian supporting character:

Girl playing Hellcat and Carrie Anne Moss' character will have a relationship.

You might not see it in the big spectacular flicks, but you're a heck of a lot more likely to see relationships on the television shows, which are part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which I think renders this thread... I dunno, but you're wrong.

I'm not aware of everything that is in preproduction, which is why I didn't discuss that in the OP.

Yes that makes things better, but I want to see how it is implemented. Also my overall point about how the MCU have been shit at representing the LGBT community still is a valid one.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

17 days left

pretty much

 

[Oersted]

Aside Stark in Ironman1, sex and sexuality is near absent in the MCU.

Nobody flirts, Nobody fucks.

There is a lot of flirting and pretty much every film has a atleast underlying heterosexual relationship.

Are you requesting representation or equal representation (as in 1/1, relationship wise)? The only kisses/romance going on in the MCU are almost always between the two leads. Tony/Pepper, Cap/Peggy, Thor/Jane. Those are, for the most part, their predestined dance partners.

Beyond that, it rarely comes up in the movies, and it seems TV is starting to make inroads there.

Either way, the thread title is astoundingly incendiary.

Yeah, besides pretty much all leads, it barely comes up.

 

[BronsonLee]

Yes that makes things better, but I want to see how it is implemented. Also my overall point about how the MCU have been shit at representing the LGBT community still is a valid one.

Compared to what, though? We're kind of in uncharted territory here with the MCU.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Yeah, it's not like there is a single character in the MCU who has a wife, girlfriend or a love interest. Nor are there any instances of a character mentioning his wife or girlfriend (or both) in passing. Nope, not at all. Also there are no kisses in any of the shows or films I mentioned.

Well, other than the main leads of each film, how many other instances of people mentioning their SO are there actually?

Cause... it's in the TV shows, yeah. But the only one from the films I can recall is Drax talking about his dead family in Guardians and Kat Dennings making out with her intern.

Oh wait, there was that random blonde intern macking on Cap in the First Avenger.

Uh, what else... well, Black Widow and Cap shared a kiss in Winter Soldier, but they were undercover.

 

[redmetal86]

Well, it took about ten years to get a black lead and a female lead.

Give it another ten, you'll get a gay lead...

Ideally.

Honestly, even now I'm hardpressed to try and remember which Marvel characters are gay. Being gay shouldn't really be the main thing, just a part of them, right? People are more than their sexual orientation.

Edit: I came back to re-edit this because OP is wrong since the upcoming Netflix Jessica Jones show will have prominent lesbian relationship involving two supporting characters. There's a photo here:



Edit: Okay, not wrong-wrong. Just saying, it is happening. Slowly, but it's happening.

I think Ultimate Colossus is. I'm not the biggest comic reader, but that's one I remember the most.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Aside Stark in Ironman1, sex and sexuality is near absent in the MCU.

Nobody flirts, Nobody fucks.

The sexual tension between Cap and Widow in Winter Solider was pretty damn strong.

 

[Mesoian]

And to add to this, there's going to be at least 14 hours of Jessica Jones, as opposed to the hour and a half that the movie characters get. Meaning her supporting characters will get way more screen time too. So whatever representation somebody wants, getting it on one of the TV series is better than in one of the movies.

Especially on the netflix shows which, if Daredevil is any indication, means a lot more liberties can be taken, more things can be said and done, and a person's sexual orientation doesn't come off as an feble cross on the equality section of a show's inclusions checklist.

I'm all for more inclusion in the MCU, but I also want it to be meaningful and not tolken. Especially since two of my top 10 marvel characters are gay.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Was this confirmed or fanon?

I thought it was fanon early on, but at this point there's too many little things pointing to it for it to be a coincidence.

Is this Fitz/Mack related? Or am I forgetting someone else?

 

[Kuroyume]

In conclusion, this isn't about making each Avengers film having at least ten minutes of Thor and Captain America making out (though now that I think about it...) it is about the MCU utterly failing to represent a significant portion of the population (and audience) for no good reason.

Well, the same argument could be used for other groups... Where are the latino superheroes? Or Asians? etc... I mean, I totally get your point, but I don't see a clear solution for it that doesn't feel like it was tacked on. Obviously hiring an asian to play the green lantern or a latina to play Captain Marvel is an easy thing to sell... Kinda. However, how are you going to incorporate homosexuality into a Thor movie or Avengers?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

About 5% of the general population is LGBT; a smaller proportion than that are openly LGBT, and a smaller proportion than that strictly or very strongly homosexual. Even if we use 5% as the figure, if Marvel characters as a population were entirely representative of the general population, and you had a randomly selected sample of 10 characters whose sexuality was explicitly confirmed at some point or another, you'd still only have a 54% chance one of them would be LGBT. If we use the figure of 2% that approximates the amount of open and strictly or strongly homosexual people in the general population, you'd need about 35 characters before you'd expect it to be more likely than not one would be open and strictly or strongly homosexual.

I'm not really well immersed in the Marvel Cinematic Universe so I have no idea how many characters have their sexuality explicitly confirmed in it. However, even up to around 60 characters of confirmed sexuality, none gay, would not necessarily be an unrepresentative compared to the general public (there's about a 30% chance that from a sample of 60 random people from the American public, none would admit to being gay). I therefore think it is probably unfair to accuse them of being deliberately discriminatory, in the sense of portraying a universe in which there are less LGBT people than there actually are in real life.

 

[btrboyev]

Well, I guess it didn't happen in the MCU, but there actually was a hint of bisexuality for an MCU character - Howard Stark, father of Iron Man and compatriot of Captain America (and famed womanizer). It happened during the "Agent Carter" series, and while the script can definitely be read in a more platonic way, it was emphasized enough to give some viewers pause, and for the actors to acknowledge that was one way of interpreting Howard's feelings toward Captain America:

Nah...you are reading way too much into it.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

The sexual tension between Cap and Widow in Winter Solider was pretty damn strong.

Black Widow has a sexual tension field about ten meters in diameter and it doesn't discriminate

 

[DeathyBoy]

I'm not aware of everything that is in preproduction, which is why I didn't discuss that in the OP.

Yes that makes things better, but I want to see how it is implemented. Also my overall point about how the MCU have been shit at representing the LGBT community still is a valid one.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/MarvelCinematicUniverse

A line from the original script for the second film (which still survives in the novelisation) has Tony drunkenly proposition Rhodey to join him in a three-way during his "last" birthday party.

I'm not saying they're great, and I trash Marvel a lot, but there's plenty of same-sex flirting going on to suggest some characters are bisexual.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I'm not aware of everything that is in preproduction, which is why I didn't discuss that in the OP.

Yes that makes things better, but I want to see how it is implemented. Also my overall point about how the MCU have been shit at representing the LGBT community still is a valid one.

I'd agree with that in that really have not at all. But television is a different frontier. More time to breathe, establish relationships, deepen characters. Movies aren't the greatest place for that.

The television series, very quickly we get female leads, minority leads, there are LGBT supporting cast, etc. Benefit of ensemble casts that are allowed more time.

 

[Mesoian]

Black Widow has a sexual tension field about ten meters in diameter and it doesn't discriminate

Truth. It looks like the tension from Winter Soldier will be passed onto Banner in Avengers. So many long puppy eyed gazes in the Avengers 2 trailer.

 

[Veelk]

Well, other than the main leads of each film, how many other instances of people mentioning their SO are there actually?

Cause... it's in the TV shows, yeah. But the only one from the films I can recall is Drax talking about his dead family in Guardians and Kat Dennings making out with her intern.

Oh wait, there was that random blonde intern macking on Cap in the First Avenger.

Uh, what else... well, Black Widow and Cap shared a kiss in Winter Soldier, but they were undercover.

This isn't really the point, it's that their heterosexuality and relationships are made explicit. For example, all the girls that Black Widow pitches to Cap to date in Winter Soldier are indicators of his sexuality and his relationship status, even though he doesn't even meet them or they aren't characterized by more than their names.

Pretty much every lead has something like this as part of their characterization. If they aren't in the movie, they their love interest is still a characterization of them. Hulk hasn't mentioned Betty Ross in Avengers and probably wont in Avengers 2 (though that should really be a thing happening in the MCU....), but it's still an established characterization of him.

 

[VegiHam]

About 5% of the general population is LGBT; a smaller proportion than that are openly LGBT, and a smaller proportion than that strictly or very strongly homosexual. Even if we use 5% as the figure, if Marvel characters as a population were entirely representative of the general population, and you had a randomly selected sample of 10 characters whose sexuality was explicitly confirmed at some point or another, you'd still only have a 54% chance one of them would be LGBT. If we use the figure of 2% that approximates the amount of open and strictly or strongly homosexual people in the general population, you'd need about 35 characters before you'd expect it to be more likely than not one would be open and strictly or strongly homosexual.

I'm not really well immersed in the Marvel Cinematic Universe so I have no idea how many characters have their sexuality explicitly confirmed in it. However, even up to around 60 characters of confirmed sexuality, none gay, would not necessarily be an unrepresentative compared to the general public (there's about a 30% chance that from a sample of 60 random people from the American public, none would admit to being gay). I therefore think it is probably unfair to accuse them of being deliberately discriminatory, in the sense of portraying a universe in which there are less LGBT people than there actually are in real life.

I mean, yeah, mathematically you're right, but it's fiction. They didn't take an unbiased sample of a population they created a portrayal of a set of characters. So yeah, I'd say a ton of characters but everyone's straight would be unrepresentative.

I'd be super happy if Fitz and Mack hook up though; cus they're great.

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't feel like this is fair at all.

1. Saying there's a reluctance against gay characters has yet to be demonstrated. The MCU is still really young, too.

2. It's a modern Disney property and I think it's actually their modus operandi to be progressive. They'll get around to it whether they're pressured to or not.

3. If they introduce a gay character, they'll want to to do it in a way that's meaningful to the story. If you just have some random character be gay in the background without fanfare, you might think it normalizes it, but no - if they don't introduce it in thoughtful way it will be perceived as cheap tokenism.

In short, it's coming.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I mean, yeah, mathematically you're right, but it's fiction. They didn't take an unbiased sample of a population they created a portrayal of a set of characters. So yeah, I'd say a ton of characters but everyone's straight would be unrepresentative.

I'd be super happy if Fitz and Mack hook up though; cus they're great.

But dat megaton betrayal

 

[Lmo911]

What about

Spoiler

Wesley and Fisk? I mean there was something there that was a bit more than being friends to me. Wesley was probably my favorite character on the show.

As for normal MCU, you can do it but it needs to be done right. So many marvel characters are framed by their relationships/relationship troubles you almost have to create an alternate universe to pull it off. I mean half of Spider-Man's cast would have to change for Peter to be gay. Also many of their biggest stories revolve around their loves and losses as well. It can be done, but it would need a deft touch.

Agents of Shield would be a great place to establish a gay character from the ground up though since its fresh continuity. Also looking at characters who don't have well defined/character defining romances might be a good place to look.

 

[- J - D -]

Fitz is AoS's bi character? Could've fooled me.

 

[berzeli]

Are you requesting representation or equal representation (as in 1/1, relationship wise)? The only kisses/romance going on in the MCU are almost always between the two leads. Tony/Pepper, Cap/Peggy, Thor/Jane. Those are, for the most part, their predestined dance partners.

Beyond that, it rarely comes up in the movies, and it seems TV is starting to make inroads there.

Either way, the thread title is astoundingly incendiary.

No, I'm talking about any representation at all. Which apparently is coming next year.

I made it very clear in the OP that I was including the TV shows and there is plenty of references to wives, girlfriends in those.

I'm glad you like the title though.

Compared to what, though? We're kind of in uncharted territory here with the MCU.

It is most easily compared to Arrow and The Flash, and they're better at LGBT representation.

Victoria Hand from Agents of SHIELD is gay.

Not in TV version. Or well she might be but to the best of my knowledge it is never mentioned.

Well, other than the main leads of each film, how many other instances of people mentioning their SO are there actually?

Cause... it's in the TV shows, yeah. But the only one from the films I can recall is Drax talking about his dead family in Guardians and Kat Dennings making out with her intern.

Oh wait, there was that random blonde intern macking on Cap in the First Avenger.

Uh, what else... well, Black Widow and Cap shared a kiss in Winter Soldier, but they were undercover.

I'm not sure, but I did account for the TV shows in the OP so they do count as well.

 

[Mesoian]

This isn't really the point, it's that their heterosexuality and relationships are made explicit. For example, all the girls that Black Widow pitches to Cap to date in Winter Soldier are indicators of his sexuality and his relationship status, even though he doesn't even meet them or they aren't characterized by more than their names.

Eh, you could say that his constant refusal to see them in any sort of way is also an indicator of his sexuality. That argument goes both ways.

Pretty much every lead has something like this as part of their characterization. If they aren't in the movie, they their love interest is still a characterization of them. Hulk hasn't mentioned Betty Ross in Avengers and probably wont in Avengers 2 (though that should really be a thing happening in the MCU....), but it's still an established characterization of him.

If they aren't planning on doing any more stand alone hulk movies, and if the comics are any indication, the LAST thing they should do is mention Betty in any way shape or form. That shit gets DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMB.

All the bad decisions in the MCU that get waved off by flirting or weak plot devices make me REALLY want a Doc Sampson show.

 

[kirblar]

Is this Fitz/Mack related? Or am I forgetting someone else?

Yeah, it's them (bi)/(gay)

 

[VegiHam]

3. If they introduce a gay character, they'll want to to do it in a way that's meaningful to the story. If you just have some random character be gay in the background without fanfare, you might think it normalizes it, but no - if they don't introduce it in thoughtful way it will be perceived as cheap tokenism.

In short, it's coming.

Nope! Random background characters absolutely are a good thing that make me think the people creating shows I watch recognise that people like me exist. I don't want to wait till they get it perfect. It's really not that hard. For example in AoS, May's ex-husband could've been May's ex-wife without changing the plot. Gay people do not have special super exceptional gay lives that take careful writing.

But dat megaton betrayal

They can work it out! I hope...

 

[thecouncil]

Who is possibly the gay couple on Agents of SHIELD?

And Howard Stark is just nearly the only character in the MCU that they make a point of being heterosexual.

Does anyone have meaningful friendships around here or is it just 'all or nothing'?

 

[The Silver]

Fitz is AoS's bi character? Could've fooled me.

you can't sit there and tell me you don't feel the tension between him and Mack.

 

[kirblar]

Fitz is AoS's bi character? Could've fooled me.

I thought they were just being funny early on, but then the "DL" line was like "oh, ok, they're actually doing this".

 

[BronsonLee]

No, I'm talking about any representation at all. Which apparently is coming next year.

I made it very clear in the OP that I was including the TV shows and there is plenty of references to wives, girlfriends in those.

I'm glad you like the title though.

It is most easily compared to Arrow and The Flash, and they're better at LGBT representation.

The title is hot garbage and entirely undermines your point. It's not that you can't be gay in the MCU, it's that a character hasn't identified as such. Those are two wildly different things.

Arrow/Flash aren't tied to any specific universe beyond their own, have lots of restrictions on character use, and are on a network which has no problem giving carte blanche to relationships. Agents has had LGBT characters (Victoria Hand, IIRC) and Marvel/DC have had a similar amount of shows, so why are we bodying Marvel for it?

Are we keeping score? Because DCTV has two couples and Marvel has one person and probably a few couples coming.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I mean, yeah, mathematically you're right, but it's fiction. They didn't take an unbiased sample of a population they created a portrayal of a set of characters. So yeah, I'd say a ton of characters but everyone's straight would be unrepresentative.

I'd be super happy if Fitz and Mack hook up though; cus they're great.

I think he was tackling OP's point about how it's unrealistic that we've gone this far into a universe based mostly in modern America without an explicitly LBGT character, because it is entirely realistic, statistically.

 

[Platy]

C'mon ! Marvel Universe is a very diverse place with it's 3 blonde white straight male leads named Chris.

I ship science bros

Well none of those characters are gay and if there's one thing I hate is reboots of characters where they're not even the same person anymore. Alan Scott I am looking at you!

I hated Ledger's Joker too

 

[Leunam]

Minor nitpick, but they didn't really change Nick Furys race. He was black in the Ultimate universe and that version even mentioned Samuel L Jackson by name for a movie adaptation. It's an homage that has come full circle.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I mean, yeah, mathematically you're right, but it's fiction. They didn't take an unbiased sample of a population they created a portrayal of a set of characters. So yeah, I'd say a ton of characters but everyone's straight would be unrepresentative.

That's... not what unrepresentative means. If you had, for example, 3 gay characters from 30, that would be unrepresentative. The odds of 3 people in a random sample of size 30 of the American population not dening they were gay is a tiny 2% chance; so this sample would be unrepresentative (as in, fails to represent), the general population. If a sample is representative, it just means that the sample doesn't deviate too strongly from what you'd expect of the population.

Now, this isn't the be-all end-all: I think you can make good arguments as to why we should be unrepresentative and have more gay characters than one would expect. But that's a different argument, because it's no longer about a particular group of actors (the Marvel Cinematic Universe directors/leaders) being discriminatory, but a wider argument about society being discriminatory and what the MCU can do to counter that.

 

[Kimosabae]

Am I the only one that sees this as nothing but incessant whining filled with entitlement issues?

In the grand scheme, the MCU is relatively new and really just starting to come into its own with the TV series, the Spiderman reacquisition and Avengers 2 getting ready to galvanize its new trajectory in just a few weeks. Like, just give them time. LGBT, representation tends to be near the bottom of the list when it comes to minority representation in general. I'm not saying it's right, but I don't doubt at all, that Marvel has plans there or is at the very least, sympathetic to representation.

This thread just feels way too soon. These dudes are just really starting to get their shit together.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I'm not sure, but I did account for the TV shows in the OP so they do count as well.

This year. Jessica Jones will begin airing in the fall or winter, so there will be LGBT representation this year

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I think he was tackling OP's point about how it's unrealistic that we've gone this far into a universe based mostly in modern America without an explicitly LBGT character, because it is entirely realistic, statistically.

Yes, this.

 

[Slayven]

you can't sit there and tell me you don't feel the tension between him and Mack.

To me it seems like they are really good friends, or were

 

[sasliquid]

Daredevil:

Spoiler

i have a suspicion Wesley had a thing for Kingpin

 

[Mesoian]

Daredevil:

Spoiler

i have a suspicion Wesley had a thing for Kingpin

It's likely. Of course it might have just been that he was incredibly proper the entire time.

Spoiler

He did seem to hate women though

 

[berzeli]

Well, the same argument could be used for other groups... Where are the latino superheroes? Or Asians? etc... I mean, I totally get your point, but I don't see a clear solution for it that doesn't feel like it was tacked on. Obviously hiring an asian to play the green lantern or a latina to play Captain Marvel is an easy thing to sell... Kinda. However, how are you going to incorporate homosexuality into a Thor movie or Avengers?

Yes you could indeed make the same argument for something else, but I'm not and it isn't what this thread is about so please do not continue with your 'whataboutism'.

There is plenty already which is may come across tacked on in the MCU so that isn't really a problem. And it is incredibly presumptuous to say that it would.

How ever did they incorporate heterosexuality in those films? Because that would be how you would do it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/MarvelCinematicUniverse

I'm not saying they're great, and I trash Marvel a lot, but there's plenty of same-sex flirting going on to suggest some characters are bisexual.

Yeah, an unused line from a script is not representing the LGBT community. Yet again suggesting and implying is one thing outright stating it is another, I want the latter.

 

[The Silver]

To me it seems like they are really good friends, or were

come on man, COME ON MAN

im not even saying they actually are Bi/gay but by god that tension is noticeable

 

[BocoDragon]

Nope! Random background characters absolutely are a good thing that make me think the people creating shows I watch recognise that people like me exist. I don't want to wait till they get it perfect. It's really not that hard. For example in AoS, May's ex-husband could've been May's ex-wife without changing the plot. Gay people do not have special super exceptional gay lives that take careful writing.

I would argue that they do take careful writing - at this point in time a gay person will have to be thoughtfully woven into the plot, otherwise it will read as cheap by both activists and general audiences.

 

[JTripper]

Does anyone have meaningful friendships around here or is it just 'all or nothing'?

For real. I don't understand why things have to be explicitly shown in order to 'check the box' on gay representation or any other related matter. The cinematic Nick Fury is physically black, sure, but they don't make a point of making any racial statement in the films, he just is. Maybe it doesn't matter (and it doesn't) because the actor playing him is black. It has nothing to do with the character portrayed on the screen other than what you physically see, which is fine representation by me.

Would people be happy if they just got a flamboyantly gay actor to portray a Marvel character just so people would assume he's obviously gay? I don't think it would matter either way, as long as the actor portrays the character well, whether or not that character is gay in the comics or in the films.

 

[kirblar]

Daredevil:

Spoiler

i have a suspicion Wesley had a thing for Kingpin

That's like

Spoiler

trying to call 1940's Jarvis gay. Reading far too much into what was never shown as more than loyalty/friendship.

 

[Jburton]

There are no gay characters that exist within Marvel as far as I know.

Should they make some up? ... What else can you do?