Support NeoGAF

[BocoDragon]

I disagree. This is a ludicrous double standard. If a bad guy is blowing stuff up and some dude is like 'please Hulk save my wife' that's cool, but for him to say 'please Hulk save my husband' would be cheap? That's crazy. The world doesn't, like, default to hetrosexuality. My existance in aspects of my life involving hetrosexuals doesn't require me to be intricately woven in.

This is entirely a matter of easing mass audiences into the concept. You can't just hammer this through because idealism.

In your example above, yes, you could have a minor male character turn out to have a husband. But don't tell me they can't treat that sequence with care. Of course they'd have a big meeting about that sequence and decide how to carefully introduce that concept, maybe show that they are a couple in a moment befor or after, consult LGBT experts on whether they feel it is appropriate, etc etc.

Because honestly? Even a little sequence like that could really take people out of the movie, and risk pissing people off, if it comes across as cheap or jarring.

 

[OneEightZero]

I don't want it presented poorly.

My worry with the rally cry for more LGBT representation is that it will be shoehorned into a MCU movie in a way that quells the want for that representation. I want it to be a natural experience and I want it to be in favor of the story being told. When it is presented as "here, you got your X scene/movie", it cheapens both the characters presented that way and feels like a slap in the face in the same breath.

I want it done right. I adore seeing LGBT characters and plotlines in movies. But if the writers/producers of a MCU movie instead decide to lean against a trope to satisfy the LGBT community, I think my viewership could be better used elsewhere.

 

[Nephtis]

Oh actually I forgot to add another character to my list...

Hank McCoy. Y'know, Beast.

He identifies as gay.

 

[Platy]

If they really want to preserve character in their totality like Mandarim, they could put some lower Marvel bisexual like Hercules (it is not that far considering guardians of the galaxy and ant-man ....) and make him only show his "like males" side =P

 

[BronsonLee]

I'd also like to point out the other character traits of Captain Singh from The Flash.

He's the captain
He's tough, but fair
Barry steals his food like, all the time

I'd also argue that Nyssa in Arrow was handled in a real stupid/CW way in the beginning of her character.

 

[Volimar]

I would much rather they went the Miles Morales route in introducing an LGBT character rather than spontaneously flipping a character's orientation in an attempt at appeasement. Introduce a new character to take on the superhero persona of an existing character.

 

[Mesoian]

This is entirely a matter of easing mass audiences into the concept. You can't just hammer this through because idealism.

In your example above, yes, you could have a minor male character turn out to have a husband. But don't tell me they can't treat that sequence with care. Of course they'd have a big meeting about that sequence and decide how to carefully introduce that concept, maybe show that they are a couple in a moment befor or after, consult LGBT experts on whether they feel it is appropriate, etc etc.

Because honestly? Even a little sequence like that could really take people out of the movie, and risk pissing people off, if it comes across as cheap or jarring.

Or, in the example given by the person you quoted, is it enough to just have the random person who's being saved by the Agents or Thor or BW be gay? Is that...this is probably the wrong word but, is that meaningful enough?

I would much rather they went the Miles Morales route in introducing an LGBT character rather than spontaneously flipping a character's orientation in an attempt at appeasement. Introduce a new character to take on the superhero persona of an existing character.

I'd rather they just use the gay characters.

But I'm biased, they're some of my favorites.

 

[Prompto]

Wiccan is a guy? Who am I thinking of then? Isn't there another girl with powers very similar to Scarlet Witch?

Can't think of any. But yeah Wiccan is a guy.

 

[VegiHam]

We actually do, though. For example, porn sites produce statistics on the ratio of straight to gay porn viewed; this is why estimates at the LGB population are placed at 5-6% rather than the self-reported 2-3%.

We do?! Huh, interesting. I know this is totally braking the laws of maths to say, but 5% feels more right than 2%. One in about every 20 people then? But I guess the MCU isn't showing people in the privacy of their own homes...

I mean, to be fair, as this thread has shown, it seems like they've been doing the latter and are really getting ready to hit the former hard.

I just don't want a moment where they decide to make, for example, Sunfire gay, then reduce his social interactions and keep him from things like bonding or relationships because he's "the gay one" and being as such doesn't fit the rest of the script.

Hmmm, good point. I kinda feel like there's no reason they can't just invent new gay people for the TV shows, since they're making up extra characters anyway, but making existing ones LGBT comes with issues.

This is entirely a matter of easing mass audiences into the concept. You can't just hammer this through because idealism.

In your example above, yes, you could have a minor male character turn out to have a husband. But don't tell me they can't treat that sequence with care. Of course they'd have a big meeting about that sequence and decide how to carefully introduce that concept, maybe show that they are a couple in a moment befor or after, consult LGBT experts on whether they feel it is appropriate, etc etc.

Because honestly? Even a little sequence like that could really take people out of the movie, and risk pissing people off, if it comes across as cheap or jarring.

Who are LGBT experts? Like, the hell does that even mean?
Would audiences really be that jarred by it? Is that how people are about gays? Like in my experience most people wouldn't give a crap about it but I guess if straight people might feel a little weird for 2 seconds better just not bother.

Actually thinking about it, since Agent Carter was so unsubtle about all the 'it's a man's world' stuff; a heavy handed closeted gay friend for Peggy would've totally fit, right?

 

[xxracerxx]

I'd also like to point out the other character traits of Captain Singh from The Flash.

He's the captain
He's tough, but fair
Barry steals his food like, all the time

I'd also argue that Nyssa in Arrow was handled in a real stupid/CW way in the beginning of her character.

Were you not shocked when they kissed?!?!? Woah dude!

 

[JTripper]

The OP clearly states that allusions or implications are not satisfying enough (and people have mentioned that these exist).

That's where the sense of entitlement comes from.

It seems that at times demand for representation in these films or comics involve the bigger, more important characters and that's where conflict happens, because depicting say, Spider-Man as possibly homosexual would most likely be extremely divisive. If they represent homosexuality with that character explicitly, there will be outrage, but do something subtle or allude to it as you mentioned above, and it's not enough.

New characters are the way to go, and I'm not sure replacing our well-known super-heroes with new characters are always the way to go, but characters like the new Ms. Marvel and Miles Morales seem to have made a huge impact. It all depends on the way they mold the story around these things. Representation for the sake of representation isn't progress.

 

[Razmos]

Sure, but it's not like race or sex where inclusion is by having that person be there. There is no correct way to "be overtly gay". Mentioning it requires the conversation, and I really don't want to have an awkward scene where someone says, out of the blue, "yeah, I'm gay" and the response is, "...okay, no one was talking about that, but let's get back to the matter at hand". And I'm not saying that every gay or Bi character has to come out on a show or a movie, but I want it to be more than a throw away line.

Have you ever seen a show actually do that?
There are better ways to do that, like showing them with a partner, having someone else mention it: "Jack and his boyfriend are coming, is that okay?"

I'm sure there are many ways to show a character as being gay

 

[BronsonLee]

Were you not shocked when they kissed?!?!? Woah dude!

I was more surprised Radioactive didn't fucking play again

Oliver is your new beta overlord

 

[Mesoian]

If they really want to preserve character in their totality like Mandarim, they could put some lower Marvel bisexual like Hercules (it is not that far considering guardians of the galaxy and ant-man ....) and make him only show his "like males" side =P

Man, if we ever get a She-Hulk show, they should definitely do that.

Though I bet a lot of people would feel betrayed if they played him up as being gay and they finally got to Shulk and Herc banging out.

Man, as much as I like Shulk, Dazzler and Powergirl, so much of their shit is just sex jokes. I need to finish Aria Shulk, it seemed different.

 

[Secret Fawful]

Daredevil:

Spoiler

i have a suspicion Wesley had a thing for Kingpin

Spoiler

Wesley? Don't you mean Waylon Smithers?

 

[……forgetit]

Oh actually I forgot to add another character to my list...

Hank McCoy. Y'know, Beast.

He identifies as gay.

What? Sense when?

 

[Nesotenso]

I don't know, I don't read comics. I explained it in the OP that keeping something just for the sake of it being like so in the comics is a crap argument and one I'm not going to entertain.

sexuality bending, just like racebending, is downright stupid.

 

[Mesoian]

Have you ever seen a show actually do that?
There are better ways to do that, like showing them with a partner, having someone else mention it: "Jack and his boyfriend are coming, is that okay?"

I have seen that done when "Jack and his Boyfriend" are one off characters who never return. And I agree, there are better ways, but not for recurring characters, characters who will be around and we're supposed to care about.

I'm sure there are many ways to show a character as being gay

Totally, but they involve conversations. There was one in, I think Supernatural, where Dean is hitting on one of the other Hunters, and later finds out that his advances were not reciprocated because she was gay (at least I think that was supernatural). It required a conversation, but in that conversation, the subject wasn't even present and came off as people talking about her behind her back.

It's a difficult thing to bring up as something to be acknowledged, but also something that we don't have to care, or better yet, "Worry" about.

Hmmm, good point. I kinda feel like there's no reason they can't just invent new gay people for the TV shows, since they're making up extra characters anyway, but making existing ones LGBT comes with issues.

I don't really mind if they change someone's sexual orientation, but I don't understand why they would if they were planning on doing something with it. They SHOULD do something with it.

 

[TAJ]

They introduced a new gay character in the comics not too long ago.

The guy on the left:

http://postimage.org/

but he Hulks out into this thing:

http://postimage.org/app.php

He's extremely likeable, smart, and ludicrously overpowered. (except against magic)

 

[berzeli]

How would you suggest she mention it? Do they need to awkwardly drop in a "my wife" mention to make it clear?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be representation, nor do I want to suggest that the MCU is doing fine in that regard, but I also don't think there is some outright conscious ban on it like you're saying. There are tons of characters who very well could be gay, but there hasn't really been a reason to mention their sexuality in the first place. Selvig could be gay/bi, numerous characters on Agents of Shield could be gay/bi, but their sexuality isn't inherently relevant to anything going on at any given second.

What would make it awkward? They already have characters mentioning their partners (especially in Agent Carter) so I fail to see why they couldn't do that in her case.

This is entirely a matter of easing mass audiences into the concept. You can't just hammer this through because idealism.

In your example above, yes, you could have a minor male character turn out to have a husband. But don't tell me they can't treat that sequence with care. Of course they'd have a big meeting about that sequence and decide how to carefully introduce that concept, maybe show that they are a couple in a moment befor or after, consult LGBT experts on whether they feel it is appropriate, etc etc.

Because honestly? Even a little sequence like that could really take people out of the movie, and risk pissing people off, if it comes across as cheap or jarring.

LGBT experts!? lol between this and someone accusing me of pushing the gay agenda this thread is a least getting a smile out of me.

I don't want it presented poorly.

My worry with the rally cry for more LGBT representation is that it will be shoehorned into a MCU movie in a way that quells the want for that representation. I want it to be a natural experience and I want it to be in favor of the story being told. When it is presented as "here, you got your X scene/movie", it cheapens both the characters presented that way and feels like a slap in the face in the same breath.

I want it done right. I adore seeing LGBT characters and plotlines in movies. But if the writers/producers of a MCU movie instead decide to lean against a trope to satisfy the LGBT community, I think my viewership could be better used elsewhere.

The MCU has already done things poorly, so the argument isn't against LGBT representation but against doing things poorly. Those are two wholly independent things.

 

[Volimar]

Daredevil spoilers....

I really need to watch the last two episodes.

 

[Nephtis]

What? Sense when?

My apologies, I just looked it up in the marvel wiki and found the following:

Over time, Beast struck up a strong friendship with Emma, even collecting her shattered diamond form and arranging thousands of pieces into place, after she was attacked by Esme Cuckoo.[54] Hank began falsely claiming he was gay to the public, in the hope of inspiring wider support for tolerance.[55]

Looks like I was wrong with that

 

[BocoDragon]

Or, in the example given by the person you quoted, is it enough to just have the random person who's being saved by the Agents or Thor or BW be gay? Is that...this is probably the wrong word but, is that meaningful enough?

Yeah I personally think it'd be unsatisfying to pro LGBT people anyway.

I see why people suggest it. They're thinking "start small.. Just put LGBT characters into the corners of the MCU and that's how we normalize it on screen and in life". But it just seems like tokenism to me.

I think you start big - make a real central character gay, and have it carefully woven into the plot. After that, it will feel perfectly normal to make smaller characters gay because the world will have gotten their introduction and it will seem perfectly natural forever after.

 

[Prototype]

None of the characters are gay. Stop being hypersensitive.

 

[JTripper]

Daredevil spoilers....

I really need to watch the last two episodes.

You really do.

Matt Murdock reveals he is gay.

Spoiler

I'm just kidding.

 

[Mesoian]

My apologies, I just looked it up in the marvel wiki and found the following:



Looks like I was wrong with that

Eesh...

Don't know how I feel about that.

Well, I guess that's the point though.

 

[quesalupa]

Isn't Trevor Slattery gay?

 

[NastyBook]

Trinity got old.

Real talk, I thought she was Robin Wright in that shot. Completely forgot she was cast for this show.

 

[BronsonLee]

The only thing I've learned from this thread is that Beast is an asshole

 

[BocoDragon]

LGBT experts!? lol between this and someone accusing me of pushing the gay agenda this thread is a least getting a smile out of me.

Thats an unnecessarily scandalized response to the very obvious fact that Hollywood will want to ask people from the LGBT community what they consider appropriate.

 

[Mudcrab]

The only thing I've learned from this thread is that Beast is an asshole

Only recently. Weep for his fans.

 

[-Ryn]

I don't know, I don't read comics. I explained it in the OP that keeping something just for the sake of it being like so in the comics is a crap argument and one I'm not going to entertain.

Nobody is obligated to tell your (in the general sense) story just so you feel catered to.

These are characters with a history, personality, and established traits. It is the movies job to faithfully recreate that character. Diversity is great but changing a character's sexual preference for the sake of having a gay character is bullshit tokenism.

Instead of changing established characters how about making new ones? Or even taking lesser known characters and giving them a spot in the limelight.

 

[hastethedav]

I'm not against a gay character because I don't pay attention to sexual orientation nuances in movies. I don't judge someone's sexuality the first time I meet them and I sure as hell don't think of a chatachters sexuality in an action film that's less than 2 hours long.

I'm not saying there isn't a love interest often in the movie but typically that's based on source material and I think it's best to be kept to source material when it's BAsed on feanchises people grew up loving.

marvel is smart. When they do include a gay character I don't doubt it will be well done, but I think wanting source material changed to appease a certain demographic isn't the right way to go about it. Especially since you know people will get up in arms over making a well known character differ from his/her interpretation and that IMO makes the situation worse fr everyone having to sit through the ignorance that will ensue online

 

[Kinyou]

They really should just have Captain America come out the closet for a twist at the end. Audience be like.

Now that's a post credit stinger!

 

[Rhaknar]

i guess if there were rad lgbt characters (or any at all), they'd use them

i can't think of one, but my marvel knowledge comes from marvel v. capcom

Northstar is probably the most famous gay character on Marvel. He's also a huge dick (but nowhere near his sister, good lord). He is currently a member of the X-Men too

They introduced a new gay character in the comics not too long ago.

The guy on the left:

http://postimage.org/

but he Hulks out into this thing:

http://postimage.org/app.php

He's extremely likeable, smart, and ludicrously overpowered. (except against magic)

what book is that?

 

[Shaanyboi]

What would make it awkward? They already have characters mentioning their partners (especially in Agent Carter) so I fail to see why they couldn't do that in her case.

Awkward in the sense of what that character's role is. We get to know recurring characters, characters we occasionally see lounging, opening up to eachother etc. Victoria Hand? Her role was largely antagonistic, or atleast incredibly stand-offish to everyone on Coulson's team. Why and when would she ever bring up her romantic partners? If we saw her appear in a more casual setting, where she isn't berating others and making orders, I could see that facet of who she is being brought up. But almost all of her appearances were pretty strictly "all business". Singh on Flash atleast mentioned his partner due to the lunches that get made for him, and when he is hospitalized and his fiancee shows up for obvious reasons. Both situations are fairly different to whenever Hand showed up on AoS.

One option they atleast could've made is if they went into her office and she had a picture of her wife/girlfriend, but I doubt she'd ever actually bring it up given the context of the scenes she appeared in.

They really should just have Captain America come out the closet for a twist at the end. Audience be like.

And then play Radioactive as he makes out with someone...

Sorry, Arrow has conditioned me.

 

[Sobriquet]

Minor nitpick, but they didn't really change Nick Furys race. He was black in the Ultimate universe and that version even mentioned Samuel L Jackson by name for a movie adaptation. It's an homage that has come full circle.

 

[DoctorFling]

Maybe Ultron will be gay. Not sure if he has a penis though.

 

[Xero]

Well none of those characters are gay and if there's one thing I hate is reboots of characters where they're not even the same person anymore. Alan Scott I am looking at you!

There are gay characters in the Marvel Universe, whether they will make their way to the big screen is anyones guess.

I'm not picking on this example because I haven't read anything of Alan Scotts in the new 52, and a small amount of his stuff in general,so i have no idea how much his character has changed in general, but I am ok with transforming some iconic characters race or occassionally flipping sexual orientation. Its very hard for new characters to become successful, so turning existing characters into less represented groups works out well. Like wally west being black now. There was no reason he couldn't be before. Likewise, I love green lantern, and it would affect me in no way if Hal Jordan suddenly became gay, or kyle Raynor. Their love interests have never been particularly compelling parts of their characters anyways. Or like marvel has done a few times recently, in a more classic DC way have different characters take on the mantle of a popular character, Like miles or Kamala. Fans will get all up in arms, but if the big fans got what they wanted the industry would completely stagnate. People were complaining about jason Mamoa being aqua man because he's hawaiian and doesn't have blonde hair, because being blonde is a bad omen and part of the comics. Honestly Aquaman being pacific Islander makes way more sense for the character, and even if they got a blonde hair blue eyed actor, I highly doubt that would have been a plot point. I'm not an aqua man hater either, I like aqua man.

 

[Mudcrab]

what book is that?

Avengers Arena.

 

[TAJ]

what book is that?

Avengers Arena. The character was also in the full run of Avengers Undercover.

 

[Asami208]

Well they HAD two Lesbian characters on AOS (Victoria Hand and Isabel Hartley). Of course then they killed both of them off, and admitted that they didn't mention either character's sexuality so as not to be accused of "killing the gays." One wonder why they didn't just, you know, NOT kill BOTH of them off.

And yes, it's irritating that so many media sources seem to want to avoid acknowledging that a significant percentage of the population even exists, for fear of offending someone. Guess what, that's not going to make LGBT people go away, it's just going to piss them off even more.

 

[Fuu]

They introduced a new gay character in the comics not too long ago.

The guy on the left:

http://postimage.org/

but he Hulks out into this thing:

http://postimage.org/app.php

He's extremely likeable, smart, and ludicrously overpowered. (except against magic)

Nice, he looks cute too (by this artist at least). I'll put Avenger's Arena and Avengers Undercover higher on my reading queue.

 

[berzeli]

None of the characters are gay. Stop being hypersensitive.

I'm not being "hypersensitive" and the first part of your post is exactly my issue so I'm not sure why you are reiterating that.

Isn't Trevor Slattery gay?

The guy with a bunch of girls in his bed? Nothing even hints at him being anything else but straight in the films.

Thats an unnecessarily scandalized response to the very obvious fact that Hollywood will want to ask people from the LGBT community what they consider appropriate.

How is it scandalised? I just found your comment funny.

 

[Slayven]

what book is that?

 

[kerotan_eater]

This is entirely a matter of easing mass audiences into the concept. You can't just hammer this through because idealism.

In your example above, yes, you could have a minor male character turn out to have a husband. But don't tell me they can't treat that sequence with care. Of course they'd have a big meeting about that sequence and decide how to carefully introduce that concept, maybe show that they are a couple in a moment befor or after, consult LGBT experts on whether they feel it is appropriate, etc etc.

Because honestly? Even a little sequence like that could really take people out of the movie, and risk pissing people off, if it comes across as cheap or jarring.

To be honest it will always be slightly jarring, at least I think in our lifetime, that is to hear that, but you got to start somewhere. Introducing a characters sexuality through some characterization and bonding with another major same sex character is just as important as a passing sentence.

 

[BKatastrophe]

Who is possibly the gay couple on Agents of SHIELD?

And Howard Stark is just nearly the only character in the MCU that they make a point of being heterosexual.

Does anyone have meaningful friendships around here or is it just 'all or nothing'?

For real. Like, I don't get the Mack/Fitz thing. I totally buy Mack being gay, but I dunno about Fitz. I always thought they were just tight. Apparently I'm shitty about picking up on romantic stuff.

 

[P44]

I mean there are plenty of groups including a few I fall under much larger than lgbt and yet unrepresented - much more so than lgbt across the board when it comes to the media as a whole. Why is lgbt put before them?

 

[Slayven]

Striker is gay

 

[xxracerxx]

Now that's a post credit stinger!

Open in a kitchen

Falcon is drinking OJ and contemplating how the other Avengers see him.

Captain saunters up to him and makes him feel great about his choices and power.

Captain asks if he can make Falcon feel better.

Captain proceeds to put on a bib and lowers his head out of frame.

End scene.

Visual approximation:
http://i.imgur.com/XxmgrP9.gif