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[longdi]

i have 16 zen2 cores, figure i can throw 2 pity cores to decompress future games.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Would they really be comparable? My understanding is that the PS5 has co-proccesors and hardware level accelerators to eliminate latency and reduce the impact of decompression. How many Zen cores will it take to decompress that bandwidth on PC?

 

[MightySquirrel]

When you post a Xmedia type conspiracy thinking it makes the other person look bad but you end up looking like an idiot.

Never buy into conspiracy theories. If we conclude that company heads are lying all the time then we cannot believe anything anyone says ever from any company. Not Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, AMD, Nvidia or in this particular case Rad Games Tools. Afterall we can never take their word for it since we don't have independent sources to verify their claims.

Before calling someone idiot have something to say with your reply or you make yourself look even more stupid. This lesson is free of charge.

 

[Neo_game]

Is this the fastest SSD that is going to release this year ? I think Sony said that any 7 gb/sec SSD can be used but nothing below it ??

 

[Goro Majima]

This.

I wonder if AMD/Intel will somehow work something comparable into their newer gen mobo/architecture designs.

I'd really like Intel to hurry up and actually support PCIE 4.0 first since their new Comet Lake processor line doesn't.

Have to wait for the Rocket Lake line to come out before that happens.

 

[Tripolygon]

Wow, you got so triggered you steer straight off the cliffs. No worries, I can break it down for you again so that others may learn

No i think, you are tiggered by the fact that PS5 has a better IO architecture than your PC so you have to make a thread to downplay it. The PS5 rivalling SSD. Lmao It is evident is how you jump between different things. First GPU Direct, then Nvidia has a lot of money to buy a company that focuses on network Interconnect for cloud solutions. Then BCPack, then SSD RAID. Yea you are properly tiggered and looking to defend your PC. New flash i have a gaming PC but I also game on consoles.

* Kraken and all its siblings are decoded on CPU on PC and consoles except for PS5.
- Right except what you don't point out is what a miniscule amount of work will be done with kraken rather than oodle. That's why it doesn't matter, because it does too little work in terms of streaming which is what the problem we're looking to solve is.

Zlib and oodle Kraken are the compression library used to compress everything. Oodle textures prepares the BCn textures so it compresses better with Kraken and Zlib using a RDO to minimize quality loss.

* PC and BCPack which is part of XSX texture compression block not PC so how's is it going to help PC
- Because it will be available on PC as well. Look it up.

I have yet to see a single offcial post saying BCpack is coming to PC so feel free to post it here. Your PC nor my PC does not have a decompression hardware that supports BCPack, only Xbox Series X.

"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new compression [system] called BCPack that is tailored to the GPU textures that typically comprise the vast majority of a game's package size."

* Your RAM and VRAM plays no part in this
- Of course they do, because the problem is that of streaming and ram + vram will help with that. Unlike consoles we also have RAM and more storage in general, so we're not as reliant on the SSD for streaming. That's why PC is gonna be faster. Remember - we can put the whole game on the ramdisk if we so wish.

Oh we are moving to ramdisks now? You are going to install 100GB games in your RAM? Again the speed of your ram far exceeds how fast a kraken stream can be decompressed so it plays not part in this. Your CPU does though. A single DDR4 2133 can have a bandwidth of 17 GB/s.

* The bottleneck how fast can you decode a kraken stream from a storage into RAM, this part PS5 wins every time
- Huh? I never specified what system I'm talking about so how could the PS5 win "every time"? Or did you forget we're not limited to 8 cores on PC?

We are talking about general consumer computer systems here. Keep up.

* Linus tried this by using a RAID SSD and had to apologize.
- Linus tried to cuck himself, and he succeeded. It's tough having to depend on irate fanboys for your viewership, but has nothing to do with me nor the facts about PC solutions.

You tried to suggest you can raid SSD to get faster speed than PS5. There is a penalty to using raid, it is not a panacea. PC has tons of advantages but in this particular case consoles do because they are UMA based. PC have to move data back and forth while consoles share memory.

* Your PC is never going to be better at this than PS5 simply because PS5 has a bespoke ASIC made to do the decode of the compressed kraken stream which your PC will have to do on CPU.
- Oh great, PCs have peaked, someone should've told me. Alexa, play despacito.

Never said PC has peaked, i said your PC will never be better at this particular task because again it is an ASIC on a UMA. Your PC is a generic hardware made to do a lot of things via software and it is really good at it but it will cost your CPU. Consoles do not have that cost.

* What can be decoded on GPU is the Oodle BCn compressed texture which is the native GPU supported texture format that can be done via GPU compute shader.
- Right, and that's 80% of the work that needs to be done, i.e what's actually important. If you don't know what % is done with Kraken then the fact that it's faster on PS5 is meaningless (and it isn't faster, because again, I can add more & faster cores).

Where do you think that texture is coming from? From the SSD through the compression block to the memory. 100% of the IO goes through the compression block. on PC it goes through the CPU. Again this is where PS5 has an advantage, it has bespoke hardware made to handle that and your PC has to rely on CPU.

What you're saying is not false but it's not truthful because it doesn't provide proper context. It's like Sweeney talking about there being better low-level access when developing on a console vs a PC - True, but also meaningless because the difference is measured in nano-seconds and therefore imperceptible to the end-user.

I try to provides lots of context in what i say. And here comes bargaining, If what i'm saying is meaningless because of "nanoseconds" why are you intent on proving that your PC can do it better?

 

[ToadMan]

What we're talking about is Kraken + Oodle, which is (will be) done on GPU compute shaders (including on the PS5!)

Not on PS5 it won’t.

Oodle doesn’t run on PS5 at all.

The operations you’re describing belong to a different part of RAD’s toolset.

 

[Rikkori]

I have yet to see a single offcial post saying BCpack is coming to PC so feel free to post it here. Your PC nor my PC does not have a decompression hardware that supports BCPack, only Xbox Series X.

Huh? It's done on the GPU just like oodle. You don't need "special decompression hardware" beyond that.

We are talking about general consumer computer systems here. Keep up.

Desktop reached 16 cores last year, so unless you want to restrict it to Intel only, I don't get your objection.

Never said PC has peaked, i said your PC will never be better at this particular task because again it is an ASIC on a UMA. Your PC is a generic hardware made to do a lot of things via software and it is really good at it but it will cost your CPU. Consoles do not have that cost.

You're not even thinking about what you're saying. If PC hasn't peaked BUT in your estimation it can never be better at this task than the PS5, then how is that logical? And also, how could it not be since an asic is simply faster at a particular task than general hardware, but that doesn't mean it's INFINITELY faster. That's why I can still be faster on general hardware - because I can throw more of it at the problem.
It's a very simple point and one you should get and because you don't I'm gonna go ahead and say you're arguing in bad faith, so I'm done arguing with your non-sequiturs. I'll make sure to tag you after we can independently test all these scenarios tho.

Not on PS5 it won’t.

Oodle doesn’t run on PS5 at all.

The operations you’re describing belong to a different part of RAD’s toolset.

You wanna play word games? Cool. Go crazy.

 

[Tripolygon]

Huh? It's done on the GPU just like oodle. You don't need "special decompression hardware" beyond that.

Kraken decompression is done on the CPU. GPU natively support block decompression format. You can take a TIFF, PNG texture and compress it using BCn and the GPU will be able to use it natively. To date i have never seen a statement that says oodle kraken decompression libraries run on GPU. Current gen consoles used kraken on CPU

Desktop reached 16 cores last year, so unless you want to restrict it to Intel only, I don't get your objection.

HEDT reached 32 cores last year. But regular consumer products were stuck on 4 cores for the longest time and just now moving to 6 and 8 cores. It will do you no good if you have to dedicate 2, 3 or 4 of those cores to just background compression and decompression. That is why consoles shipped with dedicated decompression blocks. Last gen had it and this gen improves upon it greatly.

You're not even thinking about what you're saying. If PC hasn't peaked BUT in your estimation it can never be better at this task than the PS5, then how is that logical? And also, how could it not be since an asic is simply faster at a particular task than general hardware, but that doesn't mean it's INFINITELY faster. That's why I can still be faster on general hardware - because I can throw more of it at the problem.
It's a very simple point and one you should get and because you don't I'm gonna go ahead and say you're arguing in bad faith, so I'm done arguing with your non-sequiturs. I'll make sure to tag you after we can independently test all these scenarios tho.

You aren't thinking about it at all. Saying your PC will never be better at this does not mean your PC has peaked. Consoles are just more efficient at doing it owing to how the architecture is setup compared to PC. Sure you can throw more cores at it but you need a lot of it to match the copy and decompression performance of the ASIC in PS5. That is my point.

Not that hard to understand. There is no need to downplay the enhancements of PS5. PC are still going to be increasing in performance every year and new hardware is released. PC GPU and CPU on the high-end side are still more powerful than consoles. Next gen consoles are however more powerful than 80% of consumer gaming computers out there if I'm being generous.

Just to put this in perspective. The zlib decompression hardware in PS4 was capable of only 64MB/s the zlib/kraken decompression hardware in PS5 is capable of 22GB/s. This is why on last gen some developers switched to running kraken on CPU because it was much more faster than the built in decompression block. That is why Sony chose to build in support for it even though it can be done on CPU.

 

[Futaleufu]

Your PC is never going to be better at this than PS5 simply because PS5 has a bespoke ASIC made to do the decode of the compressed kraken stream which your PC will have to do on CPU. What can be decoded on GPU is the Oodle BCn compressed texture which is the native GPU supported texture format that can be done via GPU compute shader.

"You need to buy this MPEG decoder card because your PC wont ever be fast enough to decode MPEG in software"

 

[Tripolygon]

"You need to buy this MPEG decoder card because your PC wont ever be fast enough to decode MPEG in software"

Modern PCs and in general GPUs come with built in separate video encode/decode blocks that support MPEG decoding and encoding as well as various other formats. I remember the time when you needed a separate hardware for that then GPU makers added it into GPU. Try encoding a H.265 video on a PC that does not have a built in decoder on it and watch your task manager.


Using bespoke ASIC exist to remove or reduce the burden from the CPU. The UVD and VCE in AMD GPUs starting from 2007 R600 to Navi VCN are ASICs that are designed to be good at video encode and decode.

 

[The Alien]

I will be interested in price for these "cutting edge" SSDs.

There was a lot of grumbling over Microsoft's proprietary additional storage option "its gonna cost too much".

I cant see these SSDs being cheap.

 

[Journey]

I'll just leave this here:

Sounds like Sweeney's lawyers may have gotten to him lol. Cool that he apologized, not everyone will do this, even when they're blatantly wrong, they'll just sweep the thrash they spewed under the rug and move on.

 

[Tripolygon]

Huh? It's done on the GPU just like oodle. You don't need "special decompression hardware" beyond that.

BC7Prep is what needs decoding on GPU. Everything else is used natively after decompression by the decompression block.

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

people laughing at PC gamers having to use extra cores....well it's about time games put all these cores to use.

we got plenty on PC! more than enough. we've been begging for games to make use of them for years. about time consoles done something to push technology forward....

 

[Tripolygon]

 

[Bboy AJ]

Not surprised PS5 SSD blows anything on the PC out of the water. Anything less and I’d be disappointed with the way they kept hyping it. Frankly, as a PC main gamer, this is good. PS4 generation did nothing to push PC gaming technology in any way and it was a stagnant cycle for us with most developers building for the mediocre tech at that generation’s launch. Older gamers know consoles used to previously push PC gaming at first until PCs quickly surpassed them. Even if PS5 does nothing for graphics, I’m happy it’s pushing storage speed.

 

[MoreJRPG]

PC's have more powerful shit, we get it, why is It such a big deal?

You wouldn’t think that reading this forum. The next-gen consoles have left PC’s in the dust according to some.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

"for half the cost of the PS5 itself you can get a storage driven for your PC that rivals it"

 

[teezzy]

Even if both Series X and PS5 are somehow $600 a pop - that's a goddamn steal for the tech inside.

The problem with comparing either console directly to PCs though is that the PC platform obviously has way too much variance from rig to rig. I've been slowly adjusting my system's specs since 2015 (still rocking a quad core ffs) and in all earnesty, I expect the new consoles to outperform it - but like barely, dude.

When defending their platform of choice, some PC players wanna front like everyone's rig has a 2080ti with a 9900k in it, but that's so not the case. The real treat of PC gaming has always been the versatility and customization of the hardware, in addition granting access to the largest game library available per platform. Anyone who has been around with their machine for some time will tell you that it's not always about having the best specs possible. Unless you're obnoxiously wealthy, that's a fool's errand. The fact that you can play games on the same machine you record an album, or edit a movie on, will always obliterate whatever Playstation or Xbox have to offer. Computers are multifaceted af: I'm sure you could make your PC suck your dick if you were smart enough.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Personally, I'd just put that money towards a better GPU. I'm happy with a 1TB SSD, have plenty of RAM, don't need to feed the GPU with a hard drive.

 

[teezzy]

 

[jimbojim]

We will see how it works in RAID.

Maybe will see another apology from Linus.

 

[ZywyPL]

Didn't saw the info posted anywhere yet:

Samsung 980 PRO PCIe 4.0 SSDs Official With Up To 1 TB Capacities - 7000 MBs Read Speeds & Nickel-Plated Heatsink

Samsung has officially listed its next-generation 980 PRO SSDs which come with the PCIe Gen 4.0 interface & up to 1 TB capacities.

wccftech.com

Up to 7Gbps read, basically fully saturating PCIE4 capabilities, as well as up to 5Gbps write. Sadly no price yet but it ain't gonna be cheap that's for sure. Notice the drive doesn't have any excessive heatsinks, so it'll most definitely be the first SSD that's fully compatible with PS5.

 

[Great Hair]

99.999% that it won´t be compatible with the PS5. I´m expecting something similar to this. The heatsink will be mounted inside the PS5, the contact will be made when inserted (but not every nvme will be compatible, height, flash chips size, depth etc.)

 

[Entroyp]

Hopefully this drive is fully compatible with the PS5, which I don’t see a reason why it wouldn’t.

 

[FranXico]

Lossless compression is usually 2:1 ratio (usually; PS5's a bit less than that, which is honestly unusual

LOL no. Depending on what kind of data, lossless compression can actually achieve very little compression. 2:1 is not that common in the lossless case.

 

[ABnormal]

For Christ sake...

New ssds are just approaching that "saturation of PCIe 4.0 at 7 GB/s towards the end of 2020" Cerny spoke about. But the speed of ssd is the least important aspect of the data efficiency of ps5. Even a faster ssd would be anyway nearly two order of magnitude slower to bring data to cpu and gpu.
To match that with just ssd speed, it should be nearly 50 times faster, if you don't get rid of all the bottlenecks in the way.

 

[A Most Virtuous Cat]

"PS5 Rivalling."

It's not comparable (positively or negatively) as it's a completely different architecture.

I see PC Gamer keeps being really desperate to assert the relevance of its platform. They've been at it for month, trying to downplay next-gen consoles. Goodness gracious. Calm down. PC isn't going anywhere even if consoles get something new and shiny for once. As a matter of fact, it's just gonna push PC tech and everyone will be fine.

As someone who primarily games on PC, this is nauseating.

Gotta get dem clicks anyhow

 

[AgentP]

Two of these bad boys in raid0 is going to be:

Super expensive? At least Sony drives down cost with buying in volume, PC buyers are screwed making up for that lack margin in the consoles.

 

[psorcerer]

On a single fucking core.

I.e. you need at least 3 cores dedicated to decomp to get to PS5 speed.
Sounds about right.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It's funny that even this late people don't understand the tech behind PS5 and that SSD is simply laughable.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

People still don't get it, do they?

People aren't using their natural senses (hearing, seeing) to feed their brain as it seems. 7GB/s PCIe 4.0 is still behind PS5's 5.5GB/s due to major architectural bottlenecks, and that's not even taking to account the bottlenecks outside the SSD itself.

 

[Racer!]

You wouldn’t think that reading this forum. The next-gen consoles have left PC’s in the dust according to some.

With regards to SSD`s and I/O it has.

Anyway, doesnt matter. The uptake for new technology on pc is ridiculously slow in terms of numbers actually. On console, install base grows fast and software to take advantage of it will be there day 1.

 

[Rikkori]

This got downgraded hard. Classic Samsung, destroying the technological cred of another division and hoping marketing will pick up the slack. #RIPinpepperonis
If you want to spend a lot this line no longer makes any sense - might as well go full hog & buy optane. Otherwise..

Wait for new Phison controllers. SK Hynx already spanked this pos company's bare bottom.

Phison Previews Next-Gen PCIe 4.0 SSD Controllers: Up to 7 GB/s, NVMe 1.4

www.anandtech.com

 

[CrysisFreak]

Sony has shot themselves in the foot.

They should've considered this piece of PC hardware and invested even more in their SSD, to ensure they are the fastest. With SSDs it's not like with GPUs where you can just release a mid-gen refresh. If your IO is bottlenecked you bring suboptimal performance to your platform. I don't know how much you guys know about console architecture (I'm an expert) but the gamers will not buy any more PlayStation products if they find out about this. This is HUGE.
Mark Cerny should publicly apologise.

Sony, increase your SSD speed before Samsung releases 980 or you can kiss your business goodbye!

 

[IntentionalPun]

Faster SSD = gewd.

 

[Bryank75]

Yeah... your workstation looks really entertaining. I'm sure the spreadsheets will load in no time.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

It's funny that even this late people don't understand the tech behind PS5 and that SSD is simply laughable.

Let them dream.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Let them dream.

It's entertaining, can't wait for the UE5 demo to be available and watch them in SHOOK. Cerny has clearly said that even a 7GB/s NVMe SSD, assuming it'll not throttle like all NVMe SSD's, would need an extra work from the I/O to compensate for the lack of 4 extra priority levels in the native SSD. Not to mention that it'll have 8 channels instead of 12 in PS5, a relation of 1:1 ratio between the chips and the channels compared to 1:2 and 1:4 on PC.

All of that without touching the dumb architecture of PC that needs to be fundamentally changed to minimized unnecessary use of power and latency because of electricity travel between all the parts.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Yup...

...

Have they released the price for that?

Those 1tb 2400gbps nvme sticks can be bought for 80-100 bucks.

 

[sonyfifa]

Gotta counter ratchet and clank ps5 somehow.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Time to debunk the "but muh special hardware" marketing spiel people bought hook line and sinker from Sony, with the horse's own words:







That's right. All of PS5 "special sauce" is barely worth a shitty intel core. LOL

Gonna be some harsh reality checks at launch.

On a single fucking core.

The author of the tweet is only talking about the decoding BC7Prep stage alone, not Kraken decompression (you know that bit that MS also said XSX uses several Ryzen 2 cores worth for?) and he is not talking about the CPU hit that transferring data at such speed requires (to maximise these kind of SSD I/O speed... and, again, MS touted the advantages of their I/O optimisations are several Ryzen 2 cores worth to use the 2.4 GB/s bandwidth fully, now look at 5.5 GB/s).

XSX and PS5 took a similar approach, PS5 just went for a more expensive SSD and faster clocked GPU while MS went for a bigger GPU core... PS5 is also offloading even more work to the custom I/O unit.

XSX I/O solution being ~13 Ryzen 2 cores worth:

The final component in the triumvirate is an extension to DirectX - DirectStorage - a necessary upgrade bearing in mind that existing file I/O protocols are knocking on for 30 years old, and in their current form would require two Zen CPU cores simply to cover the overhead, which DirectStorage reduces to just one tenth of single core.

"Plus it has other benefits," enthuses Andrew Goossen. "It's less latent and it saves a ton of CPU. With the best competitive solution, we found doing decompression software to match the SSD rate would have consumed three Zen 2 CPU cores. When you add in the IO CPU overhead, that's another two cores. So the resulting workload would have completely consumed five Zen 2 CPU cores when now it only takes a tenth of a CPU core. So in other words, to equal the performance of a Series X at its full IO rate, you would need to build a PC with 13 Zen 2 cores.

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

Now, sure BCPack might be a bit heavier to decode, but you are still carrying a lot more raw data (2.4 GB/s + compression of throughput vs 5.5 GB/s + compression).

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Great, I'll get the 8tb version for my PS5!

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Gotta counter ratchet and clank ps5 somehow.

Only if you can spare 6 CPU cores for decompression... Or give a bit of compute from the GPU (I'm fairly sure these were know factors before, the issue is how does it all play out for the plebs who have basic 2060 or less hardware like me).

 

[Bryank75]

Time to debunk the "but muh special hardware" marketing spiel people bought hook line and sinker from Sony, with the horse's own words:







That's right. All of PS5 "special sauce" is barely worth a shitty intel core. LOL

Gonna be some harsh reality checks at launch.

You're debunking nothing... we have seen the SSD working in games and doing things that other hardware has never done.

For the pricepoint, the technology is pretty damned impressive... you're focusing too much on the wrong things, it's all about the games you can make and what can be used practically.

You're all going to have to get over your specsheet.

 

[Rikkori]

The author of the tweet is only talking about the decoding BC7Prep stage alone, not Kraken decompression (you know that bit that MS also said XSX uses several Ryzen 2 cores worth for?) and he is not talking about the CPU hit that transferring data at such speed requires (to maximise these kind of SSD I/O speed... and, again, MS touted the advantages of their I/O optimisations are several Ryzen 2 cores worth to use the 2.4 GB/s bandwidth fully, now look at 5.5 GB/s).

XSX and PS5 took a similar approach, PS5 just went for a more expensive SSD and faster clocked GPU while MS went for a bigger GPU core... PS5 is also offloading even more work to the custom I/O unit.

XSX I/O solution being ~13 Ryzen 2 cores worth:

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

Now, sure BCPack might be a bit heavier to decode, but you are still carrying a lot more raw data (2.4 GB/s + compression of throughput vs 5.5 GB/s + compression).

You're debunking nothing... we have seen the SSD working in games and doing things that other hardware has never done.

For the pricepoint, the technology is pretty damned impressive... you're focusing too much on the wrong things, it's all about the games you can make and what can be used practically.

You're all going to have to get over your specsheet.

Guys, look at the post dates. I no longer have the interest to deal with 'the ps5 ssd is so advanced it will even cook you dinner' crowd. We're 2 months away from real world tests - patience. ☯

 

[Bryank75]

Guys, look at the post dates. I no longer have the interest to deal with 'the ps5 ssd is so advanced it will even cook you dinner' crowd. We're 2 months away from real world tests - patience. ☯

Logical.

 

[GameSeeker]

Time to debunk the "but muh special hardware" marketing spiel people bought hook line and sinker from Sony, with the horse's own words:







That's right. All of PS5 "special sauce" is barely worth a shitty intel core. LOL

Gonna be some harsh reality checks at launch.

You are completely wrong here. The PS5's I/O solution had industry leading bandwidth AND latency. The PC can catch up on raw bandwidth by using similar PCIe Gen 4 SSD's, but it's not going to catch up on latency without a significant re-architecting of how Windows 10 and graphics drivers work. Yes, on the PC you can use CPU based software decoding to try and compete, but you then have to go from SSD to main memory, do the CPU decode, write to main memory and then copy to graphics memory. The PS5 goes from SSD directly into graphics memory in one step. That's innovation the PC can't touch yet. The PC folks (Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD) will work to catch up with the latency numbers, but it will take a few years. As an engineer, I recognize the innovation that went into the PS5's I/O subsystem. It's real innovation, not marketing hype.

 

[GHG]

Super expensive? At least Sony drives down cost with buying in volume, PC buyers are screwed making up for that lack margin in the consoles.

The prices of these more expensive drives get driven downwards over time as a result of people buying them period, regardless of whether it's for the PS5 or not.

Yes they will be expensive initially but that's expected.