The Ten Years Decline of Sony
- Thread starter Canis lupus
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Canis lupus
Member
For years Ive lived a double life
In the day, I do my job
I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi polloi.
But at night, I live a life of exhilaration,
of missed heartbeats and adrenalin.
And, if the truth be known, a life of dubious virtue.
I won't deny it I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it.
I've maimed and killed adversaries and not merely in self-defence.
I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property,
and savoured every moment.
You may not think it, to look at me,
but I have commanded armies and conquered worlds.
And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside,
I have no regrets.
For though I've led a double life, at least I can say:
I've lived.
Don't think that's really the problem. Here in Europe Sony has a very strong media presence in Champions League and other international football events. There are tv ads on prime time airing every once in a while. Microsoft though has zero. And I'm not even exaggerating. In Portugal I never saw one ad for the Xbox or an Xbox game. Microsoft seems to be focusing in the big markets (USA, UK, Japan was a big effort at the start of the generation with no visible results though) and completely ignoring the smaller ones. Unfortunately for me that tactic seems to have been rather successful. So if Nintendo and Sony follow suit I fear that the future of digital services will be even more severely skewed in terms of international accessibility. We don't have in Portugal dedicated youtube app for the Vita, no movies or tv series downloadable service, no netflix, no hulu, no BBC iplayer, etc, etc.
That is awesome.
Yep. It really is kind of amazing how much things have changed since then in terms of advertising.
Back then, exclusives/games for the system got their own advertisements. Now, that's very rare. For the most part, the PS3 ads are clips showing 6+ PS3 games and/or ads referencing PS3 games without showing any gameplay footage.
MS markets the crap out of their exclusives and it pays off. Seems like it would be the other way around considering how long the PS brand has been around.
I guess Sony felt that since the PS brand has been around for so long that they don't need to advertise as much as they did during previous gens. Definitely wrong.
lulz... born in the late 90s?
PopcornMegaphone
Banned
Often it's unfair attribute a game or system's lack of success due to marketing. Basically it's a way to excuse a poorly positioned or niche product for lousy sales. Personally, I think many of Sony's gaming products are made with GAF in mind, not mainstream consumers. I think Vita is a good example of this. Most consumers simply do not like Vita and no amount of marketing can make people interested.
You know what I mean, this gen bro.
IrishNinja
Member
listing Sony's depts always makes me think about IBM years back, though i wonder if that's a fair analogy.
Derrick and some of you are lining up to talk about the pro-core gamer stance Sony has, but i think you're letting love for the output of their studios look right past counter-evidence that led them here: a $600 launch cell processor with a slow blu-ray drive, trying to emulate the PS2's DVD success, was not pro-gamer, and is a large factor in killing their own momentum.
you can argue the Vita was more in-line with the logic pushed here, but support has been minimal there too. I want a PS4 like the rest of you, but if they can't get their house together & keep up with a changing industry, they fall - and Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch & the rest of your favorite studios work elsewhere. when your model/spending & investments are wrong, all a bailout can do is prolong the inevitable.
if this sounds cold, it's because I'm a Sega fan - we watched our favorite close after making all the right moves, but a few years too late. i don't really buy all the gloom & doom in general either - i'm still operating under the assumption they see gaming division as the biggest potential area for growth - but if the PS4 somehow does poorly, i don't know how much longer shareholders will see it that way.
Derrick and some of you are lining up to talk about the pro-core gamer stance Sony has, but i think you're letting love for the output of their studios look right past counter-evidence that led them here: a $600 launch cell processor with a slow blu-ray drive, trying to emulate the PS2's DVD success, was not pro-gamer, and is a large factor in killing their own momentum.
you can argue the Vita was more in-line with the logic pushed here, but support has been minimal there too. I want a PS4 like the rest of you, but if they can't get their house together & keep up with a changing industry, they fall - and Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch & the rest of your favorite studios work elsewhere. when your model/spending & investments are wrong, all a bailout can do is prolong the inevitable.
if this sounds cold, it's because I'm a Sega fan - we watched our favorite close after making all the right moves, but a few years too late. i don't really buy all the gloom & doom in general either - i'm still operating under the assumption they see gaming division as the biggest potential area for growth - but if the PS4 somehow does poorly, i don't know how much longer shareholders will see it that way.
Metalmurphy
Member
Oh... Q1, with the Vita release and everything.
is it just me, or are there constant death prophecies about every single one of the big 3.
nintendo should become a software developer, ms has nothing beside the most hated operating environment ever which completly fails in entering the mobile market and sony... well this thread.
they seem like zombies, running away from their obvious death.
nintendo should become a software developer, ms has nothing beside the most hated operating environment ever which completly fails in entering the mobile market and sony... well this thread.
they seem like zombies, running away from their obvious death.
No, it's mostly just Sony.
Perhaps some very unfounded ones for MS, and a few for Ninty because of phones vs handhelds but by far the most for Sony and it's obvious why.
Definitely agree that the Vita is a "GAF product".
And for all the people on GAF and other gaming forums that bash MS for becoming more casual to cater their old 360 console to a new audience, the proof is in the sales. The Vita is doing very poorly.
You can't cater a system/console to just one audience for the system's whole life. It's not smart business wise (especially now).
I understand why people on gaming forums want a system that's 100% catered to them, but at the same time, I don't get why so many don't realize that for a company to continue on supporting that small audience, the company is going to have to make money in other (non-gaming and/or "casual") areas. Games are way more expensive in budget than they've ever been. A company can't just keep on releasing expensive games that cater to an audience that's a minority, especially if that minority audience wants to see more games being catered to them in the future.
Right now, having a system that caters to just a hardcore audience (without throwing some bones to other audiences in terms of games/features) is pretty much suicide. That's not to say that a system can't be focused on core gamers... if anything I'm expecting the new xbox to be catered to core gamers during its first 2-3 years. It's just that it's not smart at all to cater everything to that audience only.
Look.
Sony, just like Gob Bluth in the forthcoming megahit comedy smash humour series Arrested Development sequel, they made a huge mistake, and they are making serious moves towards regaining the player base. People like us, what like playing the good games.
Well said. It's the same reason EA's pro-gamer initiative failed, and they went back to being scumbags.
That's just it (and the article agrees) it seems nobody is impressed with Kaz's plans or his execution at all, they've done very little change wise. What happened to scaling back the TV division? They're releasing a $25k 4K TV soon arnt they?
This is a great article, very well-sourced and really highlights the problems there.
Yeah, some of us have been saying for years that Sony is teetering on failure and I remember that the common response was "business can recover, they're around for a long time, STFU".
But while perhaps early in declaring the inevitable, it's still the inevitable. Unless Sony scales itself SO far back that it's barely the same company anymore (yeah, like THAT is gonna happen), we're just watching a march to the grave. PSP, PS3 and Vita have sequentially proved that the gaming division can not save Sony from itself.
The only thing left to ask is "how long does Sony have left?"
Yeah, some of us have been saying for years that Sony is teetering on failure and I remember that the common response was "business can recover, they're around for a long time, STFU".
But while perhaps early in declaring the inevitable, it's still the inevitable. Unless Sony scales itself SO far back that it's barely the same company anymore (yeah, like THAT is gonna happen), we're just watching a march to the grave. PSP, PS3 and Vita have sequentially proved that the gaming division can not save Sony from itself.
The only thing left to ask is "how long does Sony have left?"
Canis lupus
Member
The way they're losing money now, 4-5 years. Don't worry, its not a question wether how long Sony has left but wether Sony can become its old self again.
Er no, that's the problem, Sony hasn't adapated and they havn't changed, there is no 'going back to how they were' unless you mean being top dog with hit products that sold and made a profit. Needless to say that won't come easy.
No one is going to be the old Sony. No one will ever get that kind of third party support (exclusives) again.
Remember also that there was no smartphone market back then, and PC gaming really was in steep decline. Now PC Gaming is flourishing like never before; browser games exist; Facebook and social gaming has risen; iPhone and Android are a whole new market.
There was a point when the PS2 legitimately represented ~65-70% of the entire gaming market by itself, with the other 30-40% being PC, Xbox, Gamecube, and Gameboy. That was basically it, the whole market.
Even if the PS4 dominates the competition, we aren't likely looking at more than 33-40% of the market. In other words, consoles in general have declined in prominence, so even a completely dominant console won't produce the sort of monopoly that the PS2 did. I think this is also a primary reason why third parties remained so steadfast with the PS3 even when its sales lagged significantly in its early years; most publishers love the idea of a one console future (no porting costs, no worry about fractured markets, etc) and Sony came very close to giving them just that in practical terms during the early 2000s.
RukusProvider
Banned
Source is Sony and Microsoft. Those are official shipment figures.
This also includes a BR royal payout form a case they won so actual losses for Game would have been higher. The amount on the payout is something I was not able to find.
Metalmurphy
Member
On top of that even if they dominate Sony isn't very good at creating significant profits from success as the PS2 era taught us, Nintendo made more profit that gen (although they had a HH to be fair) but overall for a console selling 100m they made puny profits.
Depressingly realistic indeed. I hate all of these new markets that sprouted up in the last few years. Except steam, but even that is mostly held together by console port games.
electroshockwave
Member
Do you have a source for this? I know Nintendo had a bigger profit from the PS1/N64 gen but I don't think the same was true last gen.
grimshawish
Banned
Something I've always wondered when people post this:
How come Sony didn't see massive increases in profits during the glory years of the PS2?
Seriously, how?
Sure they probably had extra costs here and there to make it the success it was, but surely it should have been even greater that whats above?
Was this the beginning of Playstation becoming just as overly bloated as the rest of the company? I just can't understand the PS2 era figures here :/
How come Sony didn't see massive increases in profits during the glory years of the PS2?
Seriously, how?
Sure they probably had extra costs here and there to make it the success it was, but surely it should have been even greater that whats above?
Was this the beginning of Playstation becoming just as overly bloated as the rest of the company? I just can't understand the PS2 era figures here :/
I have various bar graphs in front of me, in FY2, 4, 5 and 6 Nintendo posted higher profits, in FY 3 Sony was marginally ahead. Don't have Ninty info for FY 0 & 1. From GC launch to Wii launch I have Ninty making about 5b profit, always roughly in the 0.9 - 1.1b range. Sony from PS2 to PS3 (extra 2 FY) I have around 3B.
I remember PS2 getting a price cut (not sure which one) but it realllly wasn't needed, they were outselling the competition by a wide margin, it was very questionable tactics but fits in with how they seem to operate today being more concerned with marketshare over profit.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Loss leader hardware is a bitch that way.
I'm fairly certain he also said something like "I'm really surprised how different things are here. I thought I would get to act like a CEO. But... I basically had no power to do anything."
My understanding was that Stringer tried to make massive changes and nobody listened to him--but, funnily enough, now that Kaz is in charge, Stringer's plans are being implemented. Kaz is taking credit for them, though.
bigtroyjon
Member
Despite what you read on GAF, selling a bunch of hardware at a low price is not a good thing for hardware makers
grimshawish
Banned
Found it on the PS2 wiki page:
http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/14/technology/ps2_pricecuts/
MS followed:
http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/15/technology/xbox/index.htm
Whether it was neccessary or not is debatable, but I think your right - they could have still profited and been number 1 at that price. I mean look at Nintendo: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1943247.stm
The Playstation brand was similar to the Apple brand at the time; they obviously really miscalculated there - but then, if Microsoft entered your industry, you'd be pretty worried tbh (with fair reason, as we saw with the 360 when Sony completely dropped the ball).
From that BBC link at the time of these cuts:
Surely they profited on the PS2 units? I mean Gamecube was slightly more powerful and that was dirt cheap...
As I say - there were surely costs in there to keep them as 'top dog' but once they were top (and boy was PS2 top!) you'd think they'd enjoy it a bit more :/
Canis lupus
Member
Captain Tuttle
Member
Details? It'd be interesting to hear about things from an insider's perspective.
They didn't lose money, but what impact to their customers? They look at this, and I know their competitors do the same, but they will think twice about other add on products because they have not really supported them in the long run. It was a failure. It happens, but customers who spend money on failures most of them remember.
People always quote the razor blade model of loss leading.
But the razor blade companies don't use loss leaders any more...
If you were an employee at Apple and suggested loss leaders, you would find yourself unemployed faster than you can say Steve Jobs.
Every time they were close to a profit on hardware, the price was cut.
PS2 suffered design wise like PS3 did, but on a smaller scale. It was quite expensive to make when it launched with its "Emotion Engine" design and then-expensive DVD drive.
Yeah... shame that other industries haven't learned their lesson yet.
Throwaway123456789
Member
Err? Most of the stuff in that link came true...
EDIT:
Mario Bros 2D platformer is in development for 3DS - Yup
Metroid 3DS is in development for 3DS - Maybe
Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword will be re-confirmed to come before Christmas (Before end of 2011) - Yup
Kirby for Wii will get release date and proper trailer. Also coming before Christmas (Before end of 2011) - Yup
Xenoblade Chronicles and The Last Story coming to the U.S. before end of 2012 - Yup
Pretty much spot on
There will be over 20 playable games for the new Nintendo console at the show floor - Nope
I guarantee Pikmin 3 moving from Wii to Project Cafe - Yup
Soul Calibur 5 is a launch game for Project Cafe. It will be on the show floor. - Nope
Ubisoft wants to launch with at least 3 games at Project Cafe’s launch - Yup
You will see Nintendo sway more toward Western publishers than Eastern/Asian publishers - Yup
Nintendo wants to launch the console with a big first person shooter that has a lot of mass appeal - Yup (BLOPS2, ZombiU, Aliens)
The team that worked on Smash Bros 64, Smash Bros Melee, and Smash Bros Brawl transferred the assets of the game to another developer to work on it. The original Smash Bros team is not working on this new Smash Bros title - Yup
Rockstar is working on something for Project Cafe - Maybe
No harddrive. Nintendo chose to go with a cheaper alternative way of storage - Yup
You will be able to transfer some of your downloadable content (Wiiware/VC games) from Wii 1 to the new Nintendo console - Yup
Much more improved online system - Yup
Well, I don't know too much. But they started working there 3 years ago and the company has lost almost 50% of profits and marketshare in that time. From $800M to around $400M in those 3 years alone and still declining rapidly
Huge layoffs once or twice every year and remaining staff having to pick up the slack (with no pay increase).
And by the looks of it, staff and even the bosses, manipulate the records to score themselves many freebies, ruining stock orders and the like.
grimshawish
Banned
I guess they were thinking about long term health. Not wanting to lose any market share and carry on dominance throughout the generation and into the next.
Strange how they went from that strategy to the PS3 launch. The 'engineers' power does seem to play a big part and completely over-taken the strategy behind the brand up to then.
The PS3 pissed away more of what was gained over the course of the PS2; it completely ruined a strategy that actually cost money of the PS2 run.
[qoute]then-expensive DVD drive.[/QUOTE]
This is probably a big part your right. It was a big selling point ofc but then would have been costly.
Last Hearth
Member
I think the PSVita us just the signs of a deep dysfunction within Sony.
How they could release the Vita as it was, after the PSP and the PS3, it almost mind-boggling, then their ridiculous sales projections for the Vita. It's like nobody there has any contact with the realities of the market.
It's not the Vita that's killing them, it's the decision process that could lead to Vita that's the problem. I imagine that similar problems exist in their TV and electronic divisions too. 4K TV for $25K being the prime example.
How they could release the Vita as it was, after the PSP and the PS3, it almost mind-boggling, then their ridiculous sales projections for the Vita. It's like nobody there has any contact with the realities of the market.
It's not the Vita that's killing them, it's the decision process that could lead to Vita that's the problem. I imagine that similar problems exist in their TV and electronic divisions too. 4K TV for $25K being the prime example.
MrCunningham
Member
Because they know that dedicated handheld gaming machines are a limited market everywhere outside of Japan. They're more interested in aggressively going after the market that Apple and Samsung dominate. Just look at Microsoft Surface for proof of that. Even Sony tried to go half and half with the PSV, by making it part Android smart device and part gaming machine. Trying to please two different markets at once, the dedicated Japanese/ handheld gamer market and the Western iOS/ Android centric gamers. So far it hasn't really caught on fire with either crowd yet. Who knows, maybe things will change, but right now things are not looking good for the Vita.
Nintendo on the other hand seems to know that they have a niche in the handheld gaming market, and generally stick to releasing dedicated gaming machines.
I don't know... even with all their financial problems, I still think that Sony is just to big of an entity to fully disappear. They may sell off some of their divisions or maybe break them up into smaller independent companies. But I still think the core of Sony will still be around to some capacity in the future, if things don't turn around for them.
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