The UK votes to leave the European Union

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I'll post this here as well:

Does everyone saying that there shouldn't be a 2nd refferendum also think Scotland shouldn't get an indyref 2?

If not, why? Because it's been a year and a half instead of 2 days? Because the circumstances changed?

Well in this case circumstances changed in 2 days. What the leave leadership was promising was admitted to be false. Just like Scotland staying meant Scotland staying in the EU turned out to be false. So why is this situation any different?
 
pigeon said:
This brings up the opposite question. Article 50 says that deciding to leave has to happen according to the country's constitution. What if Whitehall tells the EU that they're leaving and the EU says "actually your constitution says that Holyrood has to sign off, so you haven't really decided to leave?"

Obviously this is much less likely to happen since the EU's current position is "get out though", but I think the relevant point is that article 50 is not really functional law. Anything goes at this point!
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No, the point to make here is it is not the EU's call to interpret the UK constitution.

Pandy said:
You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
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That is perfectly possible! What's the story then?

Rodelero said:
Perhaps I'm extremely out of touch. Are old people incapable of using newspapers, radios, and televisions as well as computers and phones? I find this notion that elderly people were, through not fault of their own, misinformed fairly absurd and quite patronising. There's no excuse, whether you're young or old, to vote on something like this without having a clue what you're voting for.
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Here's a few examples:

1) a couple in my shop this afternoon. they have no internet, no computer, they actually do not have a TV either. Have a radio but the husband uses it only to listen to Test Match Special. Sole source of EU referendum information - Leave leaflets

2) elderly aunt of a acquaintance of mine, lives in a care home almost entirely staffed by east europeans and gets no sensible conversation about anything. TV is never turned to the news. Sole source of political information rabidly racist son-in-law.

3) old disabled customer of mine, poorly educated lives in a sink estate largely confined to the bedroom as the rest of her flat was until recently used as a den by drug dealers who told her to stay put. Main source of info - Leave leaflets and Leave facebook posts

Not all old people, not by any means. But lots of them. The more educated, more tech-savvy oldsters probably didn't vote particularly differently to the young 'uns.


The sorry thing about the majority of Leave voters, in my experience, is that they have no idea what they've voted for. They know we'll no longer be part of the EU, but I can't help but feel these people will feel cheated when they're being ruled by a ruthlessly right wing Tory government (compared to the current one) that will, quite likely, accept a deal which includes free movement in the EU.
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Yes, this is a big problem for the political fallout, which I am trying to get my head around.
 
Rodelero said:
Perhaps I'm extremely out of touch. Are old people incapable of using newspapers, radios, and televisions as well as computers and phones? I find this notion that elderly people were, through not fault of their own, misinformed fairly absurd and quite patronising. There's no excuse, whether you're young or old, to vote on something like this without having a clue what you're voting for.
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Expecting actual facts on this out of any of the UK newspapers in the last six months would probably qualify as being "optimistic" :)
 
chancellor said:
40% of Scotland voted leave, why would they want a yes vote to rejoin the institution they voted to leave? 59% percent means just a small number of remain voters are not yes voters.
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Because of the backlash following Brexit and the fact it's only a poll. Good point though, easy to forget a good chunk voted to leave though remain prevailed in all 32 areas.
 
The longer the UK drags it's feet on enacting Article 50 the tougher the EU will be in renegotiations.

The EU is a political organization first and foremost and they are not going to let the UK hold the rest of the EU in a extended period of uncertain volatility.

In the short and medium terms retaining order, removing uncertainty, and keeping the rest of the EU intact easily trumps making sure the large UK economy is a happy partner.
 
Corto said:
Making it preferable for the Country to trigger article 50 than to keep its EU member status.
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It's ok to admit that there is no mechanism, mate.

What was under discussion during the greek crisis was if they would drop the euro.

Rodelero said:
Perhaps I'm extremely out of touch. Are old people incapable of using newspapers, radios, and televisions as well as computers and phones? I find this notion that elderly people were, through not fault of their own, misinformed fairly absurd and quite patronising. There's no excuse, whether you're young or old, to vote on something like this without having a clue what you're voting for.
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Oh they had a clue. They most likely believed that they were making quite the informed decision. And why wouldn't they? Both the daily mail and the sun said that Leave was best, and put arguments that they considered quite good forward.
 
The Adder said:
I'll post this here as well:

Does everyone saying that there shouldn't be a 2nd refferendum also think Scotland shouldn't get an indyref 2?

If not, why? Because it's been a year and a half instead of 2 days? Because the circumstances changed?

Well in this case circumstances changed in 2 days. What the leave leadership was promising was admitted to be false. Just like Scotland staying meant Scotland staying in the EU turned out to be false. So why is this situation any different?
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Because the EU won't have that.
 
A loss is a loss. Take it, suck it up, wait two decades for all the baby boomers to die, and vote to rejoin.
 
Bedlam said:
Again: this period can be extended as necessary. This is about having clarity and starting the negotiations.
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The period can be extended only by unanimous agreement. There will be a price for that agreement.

Crab said:
A loss is a loss. Take it, suck it up, wait two decades for all the baby boomers to die, and vote to rejoin.
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Thanks mate. My best wishes to you too.
 
Cl0tV1BWIAANber.jpg:large
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I want to see how they've gotten this number but hell f*cking yes
 
PackAPunchedMick said:
Get a fucking grip man, not a single job has been lost from this vote. And we're a country with a land border with fucking no-one. "less safe", please.

The remain campaigners really did a number on some people jesus.
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Tell that to some of my coworkers who have been told to look for a new job when the trigger is pulled.
Some companies involved in international trade have to react fast.

The ignorance is amazing.
 
I do think that whoever takes over Cameron either has to go back on the referendum in some way, or break up the United Kingdom and consign London to irrelevance as a world player. Tories are traditionally the party of big business and all those bankers moving is not a good look.
 
Crab said:
A loss is a loss. Take it, suck it up, wait two decades for all the baby boomers to die, and vote to rejoin.
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If one waits that long i'm fairly certain that one could just do what Heath did and rejoin without holding a vote.

Corto said:
I completely admit it. But doesn't drop the euro meant getting out of the EU too?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-greece-eu-eurozone-idUSTRE7A25H820111103
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Indeed, which is why the solution that the greek finmin floated around and tsipras lacked the balls to execute was to print another currency, a la californian iou's, and never actually leave it.
 
AHA-Lambda said:
I want to see how they've gotten this number but hell f*cking yes
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You'll have take my word on it and it could change but from someone high in Scottish labour of all places there's a poll in the field (for the herald I think) he'd be shocked if it came back less than 60% based on the early returns
 
The Adder said:
I'll post this here as well:

Does everyone saying that there shouldn't be a 2nd refferendum also think Scotland shouldn't get an indyref 2?

If not, why? Because it's been a year and a half instead of 2 days? Because the circumstances changed?

Well in this case circumstances changed in 2 days. What the leave leadership was promising was admitted to be false. Just like Scotland staying meant Scotland staying in the EU turned out to be false. So why is this situation any different?
Click to expand...
The circumstances of the EU referendum haven't changed. While lots of bullshit things were said, they were said often enough accompanied by the caveat that it would be up to the next government. If someone chose to ignore that, and voted Leave to save the NHS, they simply weren't listening.

phisheep said:
No, the point to make here is it is not the EU's call to interpret the UK constitution.

That is perfectly possible! What's the story then?
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The SNP want an independant Scotland within the EU. They've wanted that for a long time, and they want that irrespective of the oil price. They believe Scotland will work out just fine as a small country with or without oil.

If the oil price factors into the decision at all, it will be into how hard Westminster fights to retain Scotland.
 
Crab said:
A loss is a loss. Take it, suck it up, wait two decades for all the baby boomers to die, and vote to rejoin.
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I'm not saying we should ignore the result, I do think we should reserve the right not to let the house burn down with us inside it.
 
Crab said:
A loss is a loss. Take it, suck it up, wait two decades for all the baby boomers to die, and vote to rejoin.
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Yeah, I really like the idea of the rest of my working life being fucked up in this way. And then the 5+ year wait for us to rejoin.

Sorry but no, I'm not going to suck it up. When a campaign is running from it's own election pledges less than 30 minutes after the vote ends, and then the leaders suddenly back the hell away from actually leaving the EU, and the result was that close - I think there is space to consider not leaving the EU.
 
AHA-Lambda said:
I want to see how they've gotten this number but hell f*cking yes
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A YES vote is a fairly safe bet just now.

What makes it risky though is if Sturgeon launches it before getting some sort of confirmation that the EU will either allow Scotland in or at the very least discuss things.

If she doesn't cover that base the Better Together campaign will lead with a statement saying go independent and you still won't get back in the EU. She needs to sort that out definitively before pulling the trigger.
 
phisheep said:
No, the point to make here is it is not the EU's call to interpret the UK constitution.



That is perfectly possible! What's the story then?



Here's a few examples:

1) a couple in my shop this afternoon. they have no internet, no computer, they actually do not have a TV either. Have a radio but the husband uses it only to listen to Test Match Special. Sole source of EU referendum information - Leave leaflets

2) elderly aunt of a acquaintance of mine, lives in a care home almost entirely staffed by east europeans and gets no sensible conversation about anything. TV is never turned to the news. Sole source of political information rabidly racist son-in-law.

3) old disabled customer of mine, poorly educated lives in a sink estate largely confined to the bedroom as the rest of her flat was until recently used as a den by drug dealers who told her to stay put. Main source of info - Leave leaflets and Leave facebook posts

Not all old people, not by any means. But lots of them. The more educated, more tech-savvy oldsters probably didn't vote particularly differently to the young 'uns.




Yes, this is a big problem for the political fallout, which I am trying to get my head around.
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UK doesnt even have a written constitution. Its pretty much everything goes of the parliament decides it.
 
kmag said:
You'll have take my word on it and it could change but from someone high in Scottish labour of all places there's a poll in the field (for the herald I think) he'd be shocked if it came back less than 60% based on the early returns
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As a No voter first time around, that is fantastic news.

Audioboxer said:
A YES vote is a fairly safe bet just now.

What makes it risky though is if Sturgeon launches it before getting some sort of confirmation that the EU will either allow Scotland in or at the very least discuss things.

If she doesn't cover that base the Better Together campaign will lead with a statement saying go independent and you still won't get back in the EU. She needs to sort that out definitively before pulling the trigger.
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Agreed. They need that and an economic plan sorted before pulling the trigger.
 
Liberal Democrats pledge to keep Britain in the EU after next election
The Liberal Democrats will stand at the next general election on a platform of derailing Brexit and keeping Britain in the European Union, the party has announced.

Leader Tim Farron said on Saturday night that he would be “clear and unequivocal” with voters that if elected it would set aside the referendum result and keep Britain in the EU.
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“For many millions of people, this was not just a vote about Europe. It was a howl of anger at politicians and institutions who they felt they were out of touch and had let them down,” Mr Farron said.

“The British people deserve the chance not to be stuck with the appalling consequences of a Leave campaign that stoked that anger with the lies of Farage, Johnson and Gove.

“The Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore British prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not out. If you agree with us, join us to make this happen.”
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Well let's play it out. Cameron's already too much of a chicken to bring Brexit to a parliamentary vote seems like. If that holds true for him and his replacement as well then what happens?

No Brexit.
 
SporeCrawler said:
Common sense dictates that you dont want a member that always vetos important reforms and then just leaves the first chance they get. Bridges are burned at this point.
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Come on now. This isn't Battle Royale. The UK will suffer enough for the next decades because of this. Once the old people are no more and a more Europe-positive generation holds power they could absolutely come back. (Given they fulfill the criteria of course.)
 
That BBC clip of Boris Johnson coming out of his house, only to be frightened by the sudden sound of thunder echoing from the sky right above him is hilarious.
 
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