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[funkystudent]

I feel like 'Omnishambles' pretty accurately describes what's going on:

Honestly though, with The Thick of It done, it's not like the UK has much of a point anyway. It had a good run, but it's not really needed with that show gone.

David Cameron is like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sduRgUZEaY



Oh what I would give for a new season of The Thick of It about this entire mess.

 

[Cabbagehead]

There's a huge undercurrent of far-right nationalist parties with racist ideologies taking place in Europe the last 15-20 years. With the terror attacks, the destabilization of the Middle East thanks to our wars and bombing, refugees fleeing from there, the financial crisis, austerity measures and the failure of the Left, rising inequality and poverty, and anti-Muslim/racist run amok, people are scared and fly right into the arms of these far-right parties.

So its the early 80's all over again but worse.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

David Cameron is like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sduRgUZEaY



Oh what I would give for a new season of The Thick of It about this entire mess.

Kill Dr Who again. We want Malcolm fucking Tucker back.

 

[Showaddy]

I support this a million percent. He would be a damn hero if he pulls it off.

In fact, I called it earlier in this thread on the previous page.

It's the Lib Dems. After their University Fee stunt no one believes or cares what they have to say anymore.

 

[Saya]

Saw this post on Reddit. How accurate is this?

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

 

[ATF487]

Glenn Greenwald wrote this, not sure how I feel about it - what are your thoughts?

I think he's right in that it's a middle finger to the establishment, but I think he's wrong in assuming that the public really knew who they should be giving the finger towards. They were just angry and voted against the status-quo, not realizing that the alternative was ultimately worse in every way.

edit: for the above, I did think that Cameron staying on and not invoking article 50 right away is a mechanism to see if things cool down in the next few months before doing anything drastic. Not sure if it's specifically a check against Boris or not.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

Great point, thanks. I don't think EU is the problem, or any major institution either as such. I think Greenwald and many other leftists who think the EU is at fault are incorrect.

What about right-wing US elites that think the EU/euro area is a total joke? Even economists that have advised Ronald Reagan or have run the Federal Reserve LOL at the EU or are in full blown panic mode about where things are headed due to failure.

 

[Izuna]

It's the Lib Dems. After their University Fee stunt no one believes or cares what they have to say anymore.

Then they should pledge to make Universities free, along with everything else and save the world.

 

[Machspeed007]

I am definitely not a Greenwald fan but that is a very good article. This one in Salon was good also:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...g_tide_of_european_immigrants_fueled_the.html

If 3% would have voted the other way around, the article would have a different stroke.
Truth is that even 5% xenophobia can make a big difference not just economic inequality.

 

[Valhelm]

Glenn Greenwald wrote this, not sure how I feel about it - what are your thoughts?

Surprisingly good analysis, coming from Greenwald. Neoliberalism is definitely on retreat, in both the United States and Europe. Economic changes are pushing Westerners to both the left and the right, although the accompanying waves of immigration are causing more voters to embrace ethnic nationalism rather than reject neoliberalism.

I'm worried that the breakdown of internationalism could eventually lead to a resurgence of war in Europe.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

So a couple politicians gambled the future of their citizens in such a big way solely for their career advancement? Jesus if I was a Brit I think I'd need a drink right now. Thanks for the context.

Welcome to politics, mate.

 

[mid83]

The two go hand in hand for a lot of people. It's a lot harder to be positive about immigration (or free trade, or globalization more generally) when it has resulted in major changes to the job market that have had a negative impact on you, personally.

Labour is never going to become the "party of working people" again if they write off everyone dissatisfied with current immigration policy as an irredeemable racist.

I think at some point the immigration debate (both in the UK and the US) needs to expand beyond being labeled a racist if you aren't in favor of open borders. I know I'm making a broad generalization, but there are legitimate concerns people have regarding jobs and national security that have nothing to do with racism.

 

[BobLoblaw]

Welcome to politics, mate.

This. When it comes to politics, nothing's sacred, even your own country.

 

[Lime]

 

[GamerMax73]

It's the Lib Dems. After their University Fee stunt no one believes or cares what they have to say anymore.

Lol, after barely a year of Tory majority people are slowly waking up to the fact that the LibDems did a good job keeping Cameron et al at bay.

 

[Ovek]

Saw this post on Reddit. How accurate is this?

It's how I read the whole thing on Friday, we will see if anything moves tomorrow which I very much doubt.

 

[GamerMax73]

I think at some point the immigration debate (both in the UK and the US) needs to expand beyond being labeled a racist if you aren't in favor of open borders. I know I'm making a broad generalization, but there are legitimate concerns people have regarding jobs and national security that have nothing to do with racism.

The problem appears to be that a large proportion of predominantly lower working class baby boomers, fuelled on by the misreporting in the tabloid press and wider media, target their legitimate angers over jobs, limited resources, etc in a very xenophobic way. The scary part is the amount of times conversations with my peers have started with the words "I'm not racist, but...".

This media fuelled xenophobic undercurrent in the predominantly older white working class has direct lead to the rise of UKIP and now the referendum result

To me England 2016 feels like Germany 1933.

 

[DrForester]

So Cameron or Blair who goes down as the worst PM?

Has to be Cameron. Blair helped out with a very unpopular war.

Cameron tanked the countries economy, and likely caused the breakup of the UK.

 

[diaspora]

The bitching and howling on University stuff with the LibDems will never cease to amaze me. The way people focus on it like it fucking mattered as though they didn't accomplish anything else or to a reasonable degree hold Cameron back is absurd. Just focusing on what ought to be some inconsequential shit...

 

[GamerMax73]

So Cameron or Blair who goes down as the worst PM?

Thatcher.

 

[Principate]

The problem appears to be that a large proportion of predominantly lower working class baby boomers, fuelled on by the misreporting in the tabloid press and wider media, target their legitimate angers over jobs, limited resources, etc in a very xenophobic way. The scary part is the amount of times conversations with my peers have started with the words "I'm not racist, but...".

This media fuelled xenophobic undercurrent in the predominantly older white working class has direct lead to the rise of UKIP and now the referendum result

To me England 2016 feels like Germany 1933.

Pretty much the whole thing is fulled by a fear of the other, you rarely ever see this people complain about certain British people taking shitty jobs and dragging the pay flaw down, despite immigrants only taking up 10% of the country and being a net boon to the economy. Typically is due to someone who wasn't born in this country taking their jobs is what they find offensive. This isn't true for all of them as no assumption is but there is certainly a sizeable portion. Thing is how many people get offended by a british person leaving the country for a job elsewhere or people moving spain etc.

 

[mid83]

It's how I read the whole thing on Friday, we will see if anything moves tomorrow which I very much doubt.

That Reddit post was interesting. As an American, I'm a novice in regards to a British politics, but it seems like a lose lose situation at this point. Either you move forward with leaving and deal with all of the fallout, some of it likely being very long lasting. On the other hand, you ignore the will of the people and never leave the EU. Either situation leads to a lot of pain and unrest it seems like.

 

[GamerMax73]

That Reddit post was interesting. As an American, I'm a novice in regards to a British politics, but it seems like a lose lose situation at this point. Either you move forward with leaving and deal with all of the fallout, some of it likely being very long lasting. On the other hand, you ignore the will of the people and never leave the EU. Either situation leads to a lot of pain and unrest it seems like.

Ignoring the will of the people is not an option. UKIP is already on the rise without stocking the fire. The only real stay option is the olive branch the Lib Dems have offered. We need an early General election with an opposition party standing, and winning, primarily on a proEU stay platform.

That part can't be the Tories. They've been shot in the foot by the referendum. They now have zero choice but to be the pro leave party. They need to find and put forward their best candidate for managing Brexit, and that candidate needs to work exceptionally hard at promoting the EEA as the best possible deal.

 

[Machina]

Devouring the kool aid

 

[Ovek]

That Reddit post was interesting. As an American, I'm a novice in regards to a British politics, but it seems like a lose lose situation at this point. Either you move forward with leaving and deal with all of the fallout, some of it likely being very long lasting. On the other hand, you ignore the will of the people and never leave the EU. Either situation leads to a lot of pain and unrest it seems like.

Pretty much, we won't leave the EU if we can blame someone else for it... like Scotland and the SNP. On a side note our government has never paid any attention to the will of the people before so I personally wouldn't be shocked.

 

[Principate]

Ignoring the will of the people is not an option. UKIP is already on the rise without stocking the fire. The only real stay option is the olive branch the Lib Dems have offered. We need an early General election with an opposition party standing, and winning, primarily on a proEU stay platform.

That part can't be the Tories. They've been shot in the foot by the referendum. They now have zero choice but to be the pro leave party. They need to find and put forward their best candidate for managing Brexit, and that candidate needs to work exceptionally hard at promoting the EEA as the best possible deal.

But that'd involve the free movement of people, and whole bunch of other shit regulations etc. Because ensuring that voting out was a giant waste of time to these people and screwed them over for no benefit at all.

 

[Spookie]

Devouring the kool aid

I love the bit about the steel industry now the new bidders are getting cold feet over Brexit. Supporters are literally as bad as anti-vaxxers. You can put hard facts in why this will have a huge negative impact on them. But they will blindly leave anyway.

 

[sangreal]

That's exactly why the campaign is such a farce.

It's a vote to leave the EU when the people aren't voting to leave the EU. They're protest voting against the government.

It's ridiculous, and the laughable thing is. It doesn't change the government. It only gives them even more power to screw over the poorer areas of the north even more.

First of all, let me say I think this was the wrong choice. That said... I don't think the people who drive government decision making give a shit about a change in government so I can't think of a more effective means for the disenfranchised to disrupt the status quo and the people who benefit from it. I don't see how, even if it comes back to hurt them, that it is ridiculous for the working class to stand up and say 'we won't be ignored'.

(granted I think they are being ignored anyway given the narrative is all about the stock market losses and not the local impact)

 

[mid83]

Ignoring the will of the people is not an option. UKIP is already on the rise without stocking the fire. The only real stay option is the olive branch the Lib Dems have offered. We need an early General election with an opposition party standing, and winning, primarily on a proEU stay platform.

That part can't be the Tories. They've been shot in the foot by the referendum. They now have zero choice but to be the pro leave party. They need to find and put forward their best candidate for managing Brexit, and that candidate needs to work exceptionally hard at promoting the EEA as the best possible deal.

Couple of questions.

1.) What olive branch have the Lib Dems offered? It seems like this would be a good opportunity for the Labour Party to campaign and win based on Remaining as they seem like the only party that can beat the Conservatives.

2.) What is EEA?

 

[GamerMax73]

But that'd involve the free movement of people, and whole bunch of other shit regulations etc. Because ensuring that voting out was a giant waste of time to these people and screwed them over for no benefit at all.

It's that or leave completely - the people have voted, unfortunately.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

So a couple politicians gambled the future of their citizens in such a big way solely for their career advancement? Jesus if I was a Brit I think I'd need a drink right now. Thanks for the context.

The EU question has been getting asked for years, it's no new thing. There was a swift rise of the only party promising to leave the EU and other parties were hemorrhaging voters.

To combat this one of the major parties promised a referendum at the last election. They won a shock outright majority because of it.

This result has been a long time coming, 8 years or more. People have voted many multiple times on it.

 

[theaface]

Morning fellow bitter and disenchanted BritGaffers. Two days on and everything still feels utterly shitty.

Not to worry though, there's plenty of memes on Facebook to highlight how we're all friends at the end of the day so don't resent how those same friends sold your country down the river on the promise of magic beans. Now is the time for us to share collective responsibility, come together to figure out to make this work! Peace and love, peace and love. Oh and apparently democracy and freedom of speech don't actually have provisions for disagreeing and peaceful protest. Who knew?

I've decided to console myself today with a good book. I wonder how it ends?

 

[GamerMax73]

Couple of questions.

1.) What olive branch have the Lib Dems offered? It seems like this would be a good opportunity for the Labour Party to campaign and win based on Remaining as they seem like the only party that can beat the Conservatives.

A couple of posts back, someone reported they have said - if lib dems win we will not leave the EU. Basically, yes my post can be summed up by saying we need an early General election and Labour need to stand on a non leave platform

2.) What is EEA?

European Economic Area. Basically, a legal way of pretending your not an EU member when you really are.

 

[daviyoung]

This is too perfect. I imagine he's taken his own advice and fucked off back to America.

 

[norinrad]

So a couple politicians gambled the future of their citizens in such a big way solely for their career advancement? Jesus if I was a Brit I think I'd need a drink right now. Thanks for the context.

I think it's time the Queen stepped in, invokes some law gone by and have all these politicians beheaded. I doubt the public would have any issues with this.

 

[SporeCrawler]

So Cameron or Blair who goes down as the worst PM?

Chamberlain

 

[Bishop89]

still no comment from the royals?

 

[Kabouter]

The EU question has been getting asked for years, it's no new thing. There was a swift rise of the only party promising to leave the EU and other parties were hemorrhaging voters.

To combat this one of the major parties promised a referendum at the last election. They won a shock outright majority because of it.

This result has been a long time coming, 8 years or more. People have voted many multiple times on it.

Yes, I agree. This wasn't some accident the UK stumbled into, this was quite deliberate on the part of much of the electorate. Perhaps politicians like Boris Johnson thought they could just exploit this sentiment for political gain and not have to pay the price of actually leaving the EU, but they should have known better. When you stoke people's fears and anger, you reap what you sow. They channelled people's rightful outrage at being forgotten into anger at the EU (in my opinion, entirely the wrong target), and one should never underestimate the power of an angry electorate.

 

[liquidtmd]

I imagine at this point Boris is sat rocking in a corner

That Reddit post a page or two was spot on - Boris lost. Bigtime.

Best case scenario is that we get our shit together and things start to improve in 5-10years time. France demanding a ref and leaving would take attention off us and help us but I can't see them doing it whilst they watch the shitshow we are in

In the meantime though, Boris is going to get battered

 

[GamerMax73]

Chamberlain

Poor Chamberlain, at least he tried. All he wanted was Pease in our time. He failed, history treats him too harshly.

Thatcher on the other hand - she sowed all the seeds that have created the shit hole of a country England is today.

 

[GamerMax73]

still no comment from the royals?

Constitutionally they have no voice in this. They can't and won't say anything. If they do this shit gets a whole lot worse.

 

[Arksy]

People have been campaigning to leave the EU for over fifteen years, long before migration from the 2003 expansion ever became an issue.

 

[Izuna]

It took me too long to realise that Boris didn't actually want Leave to win...

 

[GamerMax73]

Yes, I agree. This wasn't some accident the UK stumbled into, this was quite deliberate on the part of much of the electorate. Perhaps politicians like Boris Johnson thought they could just exploit this sentiment for political gain and not have to pay the price of actually leaving the EU, but they should have known better. When you stoke people's fears and anger, you reap what you sow. They channelled people's rightful outrage at being forgotten into anger at the EU (in my opinion, entirely the wrong target), and one should never underestimate the power of an angry electorate.

Quote, repost for truth.

 

[Lime]

A friend of mine is doing a research survey of Leavers and apparently so far a sizable portion (33%) of the respondents wants the borders closed immediately and existing immigrants already in the UK deported

Admittedly he so far has only talked to 104 Leavers.

 

[Syder]

So Cameron or Blair who goes down as the worst PM?

Blair did a lot of damage over a long time. I mean, a war, especially the Iraq War, is pretty fucking unforgivable and Blair & Bush will never not be considered war criminals in my eyes.

However, if a PM was aiming to do the most possible damage in the shortest amount of time... Davey Cameron has done pretty fucking well.

Spoiler

Pig-fucking toff.

 

[GamerMax73]

A friend of mine is doing a research survey of Leavers and apparently so far a sizable portion of the respondents wants the borders closed immediately and existing immigrants already in the UK deported

Admittedly he so far has only talked to 104 Leavers.

God I want out so badly.

Dear rest of the world.

One hard working non bigoted middle aged white unproud to be English male willing to work very hard in return for room, board and intelligent company.

Yours
Gamermax

 

[Burai]

Lovely moment at the petrol station this morning. Some loud mouthed arsehole on his phone filling up, shouting about "it was a great result for the people, no unelected bureaucrat can tell us what to do ever again!"

Cue a voice coming over the tannoy, "pump 5, you can't use your phone at the pump" and him meekly complying.

 

[Lakitu]

Is there any way we can pretend the referendum never happened?

Like, wake up tomorrow and just say to the leavers they're crazy and we think they're just imagining things.

 

[theaface]

Lovely moment at the petrol station this morning. Some loud mouthed arsehole on his phone filling up, shouting about "it was a great result for the people, no unelected bureaucrat can tell us what to do ever again!"

Cue a voice coming over the tannoy, "pump 5, you can't use your phone at the pump" and him meekly complying.

Ah, the faceless kind of unelected bureaucrat; the worst kind.