Thornton Reed
Member
Half the labour shadow cabinet set to resign this morning
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The UK votes to leave the European Union
- Thread starter Spring Drive
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I just wish the Queen could come out in Palpatine type clothes, ignite a lightsaber and take out the House of Commons in a Senate style ROTS finale.
Not for Brexit or anything, just generally.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
I honestly think that the last round of countries to enter the EU along with free movement were too hastily done. That accelerated this process and the EU still refused to listen or make any adjustments. They simply weren't economically ready.
Free movement is a great thing between near equal countries, not so much when there's a large economic gulf between countries.
PJV3
Member
How the fuck can this twat become PM?
He's dangerous and has been sacked multiple times for lying.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
They would have been in a large minority back then though. Rightly so.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Where ever you go in the world you will find similar minded people.
Good luck with the utopia hunt.
PJV3
Member
I think it was obvious from all the MPs slagging him off, it's over.
Thornton Reed
Member
Huge news this. I like corbyn but he is coming across like a petulant child over this. It's obvious he hasn't got the chops to win a general election. He needs to do the noble thing a step down
Yeah. Policy wise, he's who I would want but it's getting obvious that he unfortunately can't lead the party in the political climate and system we have.
Labour have got one hell of a problem come this general election as their voter base will be split. They have traditional voter blocks in the cities that will demand a stance on not leaving/going back to the EU, but outside of the cities up north, they're the ones who voted to leave.
Tories will have a similar problem sure, but not as large I don't think.
brain_stew
Member
It is utterly baffling the disconnect between Corbyn's London Labour party and the true Labour party in their heartlands. I'm astonished that this vote hasn't woke them up to the impending UKIP assault on their heartlands. There won't be a Labour party left to salvage at this point.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
You're right about Art 50(1) of course, but you need to remember that in the UK a referendum is *not* a decision, it is not binding on the government and there are possibly other constitutional requirements as well (not least the consent of the Scottish Parliament and maybe the assent of the Queen).
I think you are wrong about Art 50(2), it is not "incredibly vague" at all. The important sentence is the first one:
As I mentioned above, the result of a referendum does not constitute a decision under the UK constitution. And the EU becoming aware of the result of a referendum might - at a stretch - be considered notification, but it is not notification of a decision. That is the weak argument.
The strong argument is that we have precedent to the contrary. The Irish referendum of 12 June 2008 would, had the result of the referendum constituted notification of a decision (in that case not to ratify the treaty), have killed off the Lisbon Treaty. If fact, as we all know, the EU decided that it did not count and invited a second referendum. The EU cannot pick and choose to have it both ways at its convenience. Given that precedent the ECJ cannot possibly interpret the referendum result in the UK as a notification of a decision.
30yearsofhurt
Member
It's already being called Jexit.
Honey Bunny
Member
http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/p...rexit_is_good_news_says_president_of_iceland/
Does going out to Iceland on penalties count as starting free trade negotiations?
Does going out to Iceland on penalties count as starting free trade negotiations?
Maybe he thinks Rudi Carrell was the German President which to be fair for a time that man was everywhere.
This cannot be stated enough, very true regardless of whether you voted Remain or Leave.
I wanted Remain. I'm disappointed. I do not agree there should be a second ref and I believe we should now do it, HOWEVER - this absolutely cannot be rushed and the EU trying to rush the issue (whether it be for stability or not) is as disgraceful as our Government currently imploding on itself.
The longer you wait the worse it gets. The EU is only doing this to ensure stability for the markets.
The U.K. Needs to act fast right now if it wants to stabilize the economy
The thing is, apart from the fact of course that Britain was probably the country pushing the most heavily for that round of expansion, that it could have been dealt with in a way that would not have impacted the working class in such a way that this would be the issue that it is for them. It's hard to undercut wages if there is a proper minimum wage and employers can't get around that. If they have to pay a British person and a Polish person equally, then the language ability and what not are probably going to give an edge to the British person.
Of course, had they done this it would have reduced British competitiveness and increased prices of goods and services, so there is a trade-off there, but it seems evident to me that many communities that voted most strongly in favour of leaving the EU would have been much better off, likely to the detriment of London.
I think freedom of movement, even between economically disparate countries, is not necessarily a problem, I think it can be a massive boon to both the richer and poorer country in fact. I think what domestic economic and labour policies are like in the richer country however can make all the difference in the world to what the effect of immigration ends up being.
The EU has no obligation to treat them with kid gloves. The U.K. did this to themselves. Scotland should also go independent as soon as possible, just let everyone rip the band-aid off immediately and let the U.K. implode upon itself. Dragging this out does no favors to anyone, every expert economist was telling everyone what would happen and now it's all happening.
PdotMichael
Banned
So the union who got told for 50 years that they are to blame for everything wrong in UK is now to blame because they want that the UK leaves the union so fast as possible.
I understand but the UK Government, and believe me I'm disappointed in them, are not currently in a state to negotiate. We need time.
Lives are at stake here. As easy as it is to comment (generally) 'Deal with it' or 'The UK made their bed', we need time to get together. If the EU goes ahead and tries to make an example of the UK by forcing the issue, knowing full well the Government are on their knees, this will be counter productive. They effectively will be ruling by fear and bullying the UK will effectively prove the prominent Leave campaigners correct in regards to their demonizing of the body.
The UK fucked up. But the EU response is important. They push this the wrong way and it could backfire and give ammunition to the movements across Europe calling for similar referendums (which again I do not want as ultimately I'm pro-EU)
And another thing - I'm not saying Cameron's timeline was agreeable. It should be sooner. But the EU response was saying 'find a new PM and start negotiating within a few days'. They know damn well this is not currently possible
Gordon brown?
Alx
Member
Starting the negociations ASAP isn't really rushing the issue. I mean, it's a minimum of two years of negociations (and up to seven), article 50 is already designed to make sure it's not rushed.
The only reason to delay the start of negociations is if somehow the UK government (whoever that is) is considering a possibility of not leaving. But that's something about which they should be clear, and quickly so.
Too bad. They need to be made an example of because the entire world needs to see that giving in to fear mongering, lying, right wing nutjobs only brings ruin. Placating them is the absolute last thing they should do. The responsibility of any lives affected or jobs lost lies with the Leave campaign and the people who voted for them, no one else.
Even Churchill had respect for him.
''It fell to Neville Chamberlain in one of the supreme crises of the world to be contradicted by events, to be disappointed in his hopes, and to be deceived and cheated by a wicked man. But what were these hopes in which he was disappointed? What were these wishes in which he was frustrated? What was that faith that was abused? They were surely among the most noble and benevolent instincts of the human heart-the love of peace, the toil for peace, the strife for peace, the pursuit of peace, even at great peril, and certainly to the utter disdain of popularity or clamour. Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. This alone will stand him in good stead as far as what is called the verdict of history is concerned.''
GamerMax73
Member
Lol, I've nothing against the good people of Iceland but seriously we're not trading our place on the world stage by dropping a market of 742 million in favour of the insignificant nordic north (sorry guys), but
Greenland - pop. 56k
Iceland - pop.320k
Faroe Islands (really?) - pop. 49k
We have a larger population in Norfolk than those three combined! Norway does add some weight admittedly, but is totally dwarfed by London alone.
Our place in the world is changing - I don't think it's going to change that much - even with Scotland leaving.
On top of that, support for appeasement (or rather, reluctance to go to war) was incredibly widespread in both Britain and France.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Iceland has a population of 320,000, whereas the UK has 65 million. The divisions between the people are now clear and the hatred deep. The reputation of the UK is now trash.
No, it's not good news.
So here's the state as of right now:
Group 1: Invoke Article 50 ASAP
(Schultz, Juncker, France, Italy)
Group 2: Relax, the market will do what the market does and you'll end up being an associate member. Not quite the Norway model but a third tier of countries we can integrate without them being full members.
(Merkel, Netherlands, Austria, Ireland)
The third tier idea is an interesting one that could sidestep a lot of problems, such as Greece vetoing Turkey's EU membership and blowing the wind out of some EU critics (look at the UK, let's just stay a member of the EU proper). But it's also a gamble. The markets are not very "wait and see". They hate that. It would also make the humiliation the UK caused even bigger than it is (which Merkel doesn't seem to care about but of course Juncker and Schultz would).
I hope people at least understand now that the Norway model is not happening for the UK.
Group 1: Invoke Article 50 ASAP
(Schultz, Juncker, France, Italy)
Group 2: Relax, the market will do what the market does and you'll end up being an associate member. Not quite the Norway model but a third tier of countries we can integrate without them being full members.
(Merkel, Netherlands, Austria, Ireland)
Group 3: I have no idea what is happening
(UK)
(UK)
The third tier idea is an interesting one that could sidestep a lot of problems, such as Greece vetoing Turkey's EU membership and blowing the wind out of some EU critics (look at the UK, let's just stay a member of the EU proper). But it's also a gamble. The markets are not very "wait and see". They hate that. It would also make the humiliation the UK caused even bigger than it is (which Merkel doesn't seem to care about but of course Juncker and Schultz would).
I hope people at least understand now that the Norway model is not happening for the UK.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Sturgeon, Ian Duncan Smith and Hilary on Andrew Matt right now.
Thornton Reed
Member
Benn set to be on Marr this morning
Thornton Reed
Member
Andrew marr's opening monologue absolutely nailed it
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Germany, especially Hamburg. You will feel right at home there. Culturally it isn't far off from Britain, they even love tea there. Also the weather comes unfortunately very close.
This Hamburg street looks as it could also be in London, Manchester, Birmingham...
I can concur with that. Hamburg is a wonderful and welcoming city.
It isn't all that slow. Heck, we could fit in two or three general elections by the time the Americans get round to finishing their one!
The advantage of a general election is that it gives massively more certainty.
Now that really is a stretch too far! The latitude may be wide but it is not so wide as all that. Again, the Irish referendum in 2008 is a counterexample.
It is, because of the 2-year clock in article 50.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Basically said this ref was about the poor and lesser educated against the educated and well off.
Of course their main grievance was immigration, so I don't know how many of the poor and disadvantaged really thought in this way when they were voting.
Of course their main grievance was immigration, so I don't know how many of the poor and disadvantaged really thought in this way when they were voting.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Seconded. Hamburg is fucking great.Germany, especially Hamburg. You will feel right at home there. Culturally it isn't far off from Britain, they even love tea there. Also the weather comes unfortunately very close.
This Hamburg street looks as it could also be in London, Manchester, Birmingham...
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Yeah. One of the co-hosts is talking about how the people don't realize the cataclysmic enormity of how bad this is.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
Chill, negotiation cannot begin until article 50 and the whole point of negotiations are to find answers to questions and there's lots of questions need negotiations.
I understand that. They just seem so...un-prepared to deal with what they wished for. Just sharing impressions of what I'm perceiving now.
I'm not entirely disagreeing - but if the heads of the EU go full on to punish the UK, do you not think referedum calling movements across Europe will push the point 'Do we really want to be part of an EU system that purposefully kicks a nation this way when the public hold a democratic vote'
Again, should the EU let the UK lie in their bed and face the consequences - yes. Should the EU go all out hostile in attacking and kicking the shit out of the UK - if you think that's a good idea, that's equally going to have consequences.
Amazing how relaxed Brexiters are being. It's almost as if they don't fully appreciate the enormity or their actions and expect other people to sort it out.
That seems to be what's happening with Labour too. They wanted someone in the mould of Blair, etc and they got him. In their faces.
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