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[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

People have been campaigning to leave the EU for over fifteen years, long before migration from the 2003 expansion ever became an issue.

Yeah. UKIP was formed in 1993. When the primary immigrants were West Indian and Pakistani.

 

[fanboi]

As noted in the quoted article text, Norway:

• Observes EU single-market regulations;
• Does not have representation in making them;
• Pays into the European budget; and
• Accepts free movement of people.

In exchange for full access to the single market.

As noted by that poster, this wouldn't be punishment nor favour.

The irony if the chose this way.

 

[Tak3n]

This is exactly the reason Cameron stepped down. Anyone with experience with the EU knows that's exactly what is going g to happen. You get drafted terms and you either accept them or move on. Especially considering the situation the EU finds itself at the moment. This is the reason Johnson and Gove are nowhere to be seen, because they know this is what will happen.

The remain campaign has pointed out many times that this is what would happen. In fact the leave campaign said as much. They ran on 'getting the Norway type deal' and now that this is looking to be the case, they are trembling.

oh I agree, and fully understand the refusing free movement will cause issues.... I suspect what will happen is we will accept free movement of 'labour' not people...

and that means those people can come and work, but will not qualify for any state assistance and zero access to housing and benefits, and can not come without a employment offer

 

[anonymous_abc]

we will accept free movement of 'labour' not people...

Daniel Hammond, is that you?

 

[Zaph]

Love the fact that there is no fucking endgame scenario from the Brexit crows except the mindset that the UK is entitled to a good deal because reasons.

We're special, dontchaknow?

Seriously, people talk about the damage of American exceptionalism, but there is a much more damaging, but more subtle, undercurrent of it with the British - we just mask it with self-depreciating humour. But in the backs of people's heads is this notion others should just be happy to be in our presence even when we bring nothing to the table.

We stopped trying a long time ago and thought our history could keep the momentum going indefinitely.

 

[Tak3n]

Daniel Hammond, is that you?

No, and yesterday I derided his point as stupid, but actually if it is going to just calm people down and stop the world falling rhetoric, I reckon that is sellable to the leave voters...

as long as it is that, basically if you come here you are on your own, no coming cap in hand for help, and only for work, out of a job, you go home

 

[Clockwork5]

Too bad. They need to be made an example of because the entire world needs to see that giving in to fear mongering, lying, right wing nutjobs only brings ruin. Placating them is the absolute last thing they should do. The responsibility of any lives affected or jobs lost lies with the Leave campaign and the people who voted for them, no one else.

Yes. Let's ignore any benifit of maintaining a business friendly relationship with the U.K. and punish them. They need to be destroyed and made an example out of for their democratically held vote. Other nations will cower in terror of our wrath and vengeance.

Sounds reasonable.

 

[peely]

3. Also true. The UK will likely remain a part of the common market and therefore contribute. The difference will be that our contribution will likely be far smaller, and we will not be dragged into paying for bailouts, emergency funds etc without our consent.

We wouldn't have had to pay for bailouts anyway.

Point #1 on http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/07/eu-referendum-fact-check-david-cameron-leave-campaign-claims

 

[anonymous_abc]

as long as it is that, basically if you come here you are on your own, no coming cap in hand for help, and only for work, out of a job, you go home

So basically like a majority of immigrants today too?

 

[Jezbollah]

IDS squirming on Marr. Calls the "£350m to the NHS per week" a "possibility" rather than anything more concrete.

Odeus toad.

 

[Feorax]

IDS squirming here. No massive surprise.

 

[Tak3n]

So basically like a majority of immigrants today too?

No, because they get access to benefits

 

[Hasney]

IDS is such a horrible cunt. He's as bad as the current leadership candidates, except he's also hilariously weak on top of that.

 

[Mivey]

4. They accept the free movement of labour. Which is likely to remain in place. This is a very different concept to EU Citizenship as set up by the Masstricht treaty. (Edit: They're also a Schengen country, so there's free movement but not an automatic right to settle).

Noo, the UK will have to accept "Free movement of persons", which includes the right for EU citizens, as understood in current EU law, to "live, work, study or retire in another country". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_market#Free_movement_of_persons)

And the chances that the EU will somehow loosen this requirement for the UK because it is some special snowflake, about as high as Scotland staying in the UK if they get the chance to have another referendum.

 

[phisheep]

It can be extended and it likely will be extended.

I feel like I have said this a zillion times already.

Any extension to the negotiating period requires unanimity of the remaining EU states. That unanimity will come at a price. There is absolutely no benefit to the UK in commencing negotiations earlier than it is ready to.

 

[MouldyK]

Man behind 2nd EU referendum petition was actually a leave supporter

The petition for a second EU referendum that has attracted nearly three million signatures was started by a right-wing activist a month before the vote.
In an amusing plot twist, Vote Leave campaigner William Oliver Healey, an activist for the English Democrats, started the petition that has since become the last hope for millions of pro-EU voters.

Nigel Farage says Britain’s heading into recession
On his Facebook page, posts by Mr Healey show that he set up the petition on May 23, with polls at the time suggesting a likely triumph for the Remain campaign.
An outspoken Leave campaigner who describes himself as a ‘nationalist’ in other posts, Mr Healey has celebrated Britain’s decision to quit the EU.

Of course no-one would pay attention to the Petition until someone lost haha.

I am genuinely appalled by the behaviour of some of the remain campaign, how they are conducting themselves post-referendum not just with this petition but generally. The referendum was fairly funded; democratically endorsed, every vote was weighted equally and I believe this was a true reflection of the mood of the country.

Somewhere there's an Alternate-Reality where Remain won and he is like "EVERYONE! SIGN THIS PETITION! It was an unfair ruling!"

 

[Feorax]

I'm still waiting for one of these leave politicians to give an answer other that "this is for someone else to deal with now".

 

[Cromwell]

IDS is an unbelievable piece of shit on Marr. How can anyone believe in this guy?

 

[shinra-bansho]

We're special, dontchaknow?

Seriously, people talk about the damage of American exceptionalism, but there is a much more damaging, but more subtle, undercurrent of it with the British - we just mask it with self-depreciating humour. But in the backs of people's heads is this notion others should just be happy to be in our presence even when we bring nothing to the table.

We stopped trying a long time ago and thought our history could keep the momentum going indefinitely.

From a different Economist article.

American reactions always matter to the British. But transatlantic views of Brexit are especially important for Thatcherite Conservative members of the Leave camp, who made a series of bold promises about how the British would be welcomed into the embrace of an Anglo-Saxon alliance of countries that speak English, take their democratic cues from the Magna Carta, their views of free trade from Adam Smith and would generally rush to offer an attractive free trade agreement to the post-EU Britain in the twinkling of an eye.
...
So will those Brexiteers’ cheques now be swiftly and easily cashed? The question is somewhat similar to the larger question of Britain’s future trade relations with the EU. The great claim by Brexiteers is that because Britain buys more from Europe than vice versa, economic rationality means that a future British government will easily secure a deal that avoids almost all barriers to trade while at the same time allowing British firms to avoid costly and onerous EU regulations and permits British labour markets to be sealed to EU workers at will.
...
This claim suffers from a couple of problems, starting with relative scale... Britain is a hefty country by European standards, to be sure, but some 45% of its exports go to the rest of Europe, while about 7% of other EU countries’ total exports are bought by Britain.
...
Brexiteers are never happier than when thundering about their own country’s proud sovereignty, their desire to see British interests put first, and the noble willingness of a democratic people to resist bullying by experts and big businessmen and other bullies when their dignity and democratic rights are at stake.

But here is the hitch. Those same Brexiteers are startlingly incurious about what foreigners think and feel, and disdainfully sure that they either love Britain enough to do as requested (cf the cheques written on America’s account) or will submit to bullying by big boys (cf those predictions that BMW will tell Europeans what to do).
...
To focus on America, it is possible to think that removing all remaining trade barriers with Britain is a splendid idea, and to believe—as Mr Obama suggested—that asking for a new bilateral trade deal now shows quite shockingly bad timing.
...
If Mr Ryan is still Speaker in January or Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky is still Republican leader in the Senate, do they imagine that their hearts would soar at being asked, as a first order of business, to get a free trade pact through the next Congress? And if Democrats are in charge in Congress, do Brexiteers think it would be any different?

 

[kmag]

1. Yes it does, but it doesn't observe all of them...it retains the right to reject any regulation it deems fit to. That, to me, is the essential part. As such, they're not a part of the CFP or the CAP.

2. That's 100% true. They have influence but can do very little.

3. Also true. The UK will likely remain a part of the common market and therefore contribute. The difference will be that our contribution will likely be far smaller, and we will not be dragged into paying for bailouts, emergency funds etc without our consent.

4. They accept the free movement of labour. Which is likely to remain in place. This is a very different concept to EU Citizenship as set up by the Masstricht treaty. (Edit: They're also a Schengen country, so there's free movement but not an automatic right to settle).

The parts they ignore they lose access to the common market in that sector

People don't really understand what a sweet deal the uk financial services got. Lovely exclusions vetoes over proposed legislation under a Norway model you need to accept the legislation for a sector or that part of your economy is out of the market

 

[Dascu]

No, because they get access to benefits

Enlighten me, do they get health care in case they fall sick while working in the UK? Do they pay taxes here and consequently contribute to the social security system? Do they get short term housing opportunities? Do they get childcare support in case (of a couple) they get kids while working here?

Genuine question towards you if you know how these things work and how 'simple' it is to separate freedom of labour without benefits.

 

[The Naked Priest]

USA, Canada and Germany say they will maintain trade relations with Britain outside the EU.

This is just the beginning of the disbandment of the EU, more countries will come to their senses and leave soon enough.

 

[Cromwell]

Yes. Let's ignore any benifit of maintaining a business friendly relationship with the U.K. and punish them. They need to be destroyed and made an example out of for their democratically held vote. Other nations will cower in terror of our wrath and vengeance.

Sounds reasonable.

I never said anything about not maintaining a business relationship or utterly destroying them. There are levels. The world does not exist in binary values.

 

[dumbo]

1. Yes it does, but it doesn't observe all of them...it retains the right to reject any regulation it deems fit to. That, to me, is the essential part. As such, they're not a part of the CFP or the CAP.

Sorry, that's not correct. The EEA/EU agreement does not cover those topics, but Norway certainly does not have the right reject any regulation within the areas that are covered.

 

[Jezbollah]

People don't really understand what a sweet deal the uk financial services got. Lovely exclusions vetoes over proposed legislation under a Norway model you need to accept the legislation for a sector or that part of your economy is out of the market

I think a lot of the Leave voters hardly scratched the surface on what benefits we really had in the EU. It saddens me.

 

[Darkstorne]

No, because they get access to benefits

You are such a fool. I spoke to an old lady about this yesterday, claiming immigrants had to be controlled because they were more interested in benefits than work. I pointed out that despite high immigration figures, unemployment is at a decade-plus low of 5% and falling, meaning immigrants were coming here for the amazing minimum wage, not for the pitiful benefits, and therefore paying taxes meaning they contribute far more to the economy than they take.

She refused to believe me. Told me I was lying. You can't argue with stupidity like that, and stupidity like that is the main reason the Leave vote won.

 

[Zaph]

I think a lot of the Leave voters hardly scratched the surface on what benefits we really had in the EU. It saddens me.

In a deeply ironic twist, I was following along with all the news on Friday while in Paris using free calls, texts and data thanks to EU legislation.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

USA, Canada and Germany say they will maintain trade relations with Britain outside the EU.

This is just the beginning of the disbandment of the EU, more countries will come to their senses and leave soon enough.

This is journalistic drivel at its best.

Obama at best said, "we still like you UK"
Merkel at best said "we aren't going to go out of our way to fuck you over in a EU deal"
Trudea at best said "we respect UK as part of NATO, and the EU is a cool place too"

There was pretty much zero in all three statements that amounted to serious commitment to without caveat trade outside the EU, nor a determination to get the ball rolling on trade talks.

 

[Alx]

USA, Canada and Germany say they will maintain trade relations with Britain outside the EU.

Of course they'll maintain trade relations with Britain, leaving EU doesn't turn you into North Korea...

 

[KonradLaw]

The funny thing is that while you can keep free trade with control over migration, you can't do that with services and labor. Meaning either UK accepts the exact same free movement it had under EU or it can kiss a large portion of it's financial services away, as it will loose the EU passport.

 

[Tak3n]

Enlighten me, do they get health care in case they fall sick while working in the UK? Do they pay taxes here and consequently contribute to the social security system? Do they get short term housing opportunities? Do they get childcare support in case (of a couple) they get kids while working here?

Genuine question towards you if you know how these things work and how 'simple' it is to separate freedom of labour without benefits.

I don't know the in's and out's, I am just trying to say that leave won, and we all agree immigrations was the number one reason to vote leave...

so there has to be a sellable solution for all, and by saying to the leave voters that anyone who comes here will not get access to any in work benefits, and have to leave without a job, it might just be enough

The NHS has always had a fee for non-eu nationals I believe, so that would have to be negotiated.

They will of course get access to schooling, but not free nursery care

 

[Cromwell]

This is journalistic drivel at its best.

Obama at best said, "we still like you UK"
Merkel at best said "we aren't going to go out of our way to fuck you over in a EU deal"

Yes, they're far more vicious than I am. Good luck, UK, you'll need it.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Marr's comments about this being a revolt by the struggling against the cocky is fucking gross.

I was unemployed for 6-7 years of my 20s and I voted to remain. Those fucking dick heads don't get to own that narrative.

 

[Tak3n]

You are such a fool. I spoke to an old lady about this yesterday, claiming immigrants had to be controlled because they were more interested in benefits than work. I pointed out that despite high immigration figures, unemployment is at a decade-plus low of 5% and falling, meaning immigrants were coming here for the amazing minimum wage, not for the pitiful benefits, and therefore paying taxes meaning they contribute far more to the economy than they take.

She refused to believe me. Told me I was lying. You can't argue with stupidity like that, and stupidity like that is the main reason the Leave vote won.

Leave won, so you can jump up and down all you like.... I am trying to come up with a solution that works for all, but again all we get is insults from remain voters

 

[KonradLaw]

This is just the beginning of the disbandment of the EU, more countries will come to their senses and leave soon enough.

THe mess that Brexit is going to be will cool down a lot of hot citizen heads in EU. If EU also loosens up it's federalization push you can kiss chances of anyone else leaving goodbye.

 

[phisheep]

I think maybe I should clarify something just in case people are taking my posts wrong.

I am a committed Remainer. I voted Remain, I convinced a lot of other people to vote Remain, I am as shocked as many of you at the result and I firmly believe that the best outcome is for the UK not to leave the EU.

For those of you posting that "to avoid uncertainty" or to "get the best deal" we should invoke Art 50 immediately, do you realise that this would significantly worsen the possibility of remaining in the EU?

I think that remaining is a possible outcome, but it involves delicate handling - otherwise there will by very widespread problems with those who voted Leave.

I'll post further on this when I have time, but just want to clarify that I am not favouring delay in the start of negotiations just because of being bloody-minded or anything.

 

[Xando]

USA, Canada and Germany say they will maintain trade relations with Britain outside the EU.

Of course they will.

Did you think they were gonna trade embargo the UK?

 

[GamerMax73]

Honestly having this farce go on beyond 2019 cannot be in anyone's interest.
It would be beyond ridiculous to have EP elections held in the UK that voted to leave 3 years prior.

Reality has to set in at some point - negotiations take time. Before article 50 we have, at the very least,

• Tory leadership election
• Labour leadership election
• preliminary, back room, unofficial talks with the EU

Likely you can add to that a general election before the preliminary talks can start in earnest.

Then you've got the timing of the French and German general elections next year.

Then there's the fact that unofficial/semi-official talks could rumble on for months, if not years, before official talks and article 50 is enacted.

And then there's up to 2 years in article 50 - should it not be mutually extended - before Brexit itself can actually happen.

Given all that timing, we be heading to the GE currently due May 2020, but could move to late 2021 or early 2022.

Quiet frankly anyone who thinks we can get through this quickly and are in for anything less than a good decade of turmoil while Britain reestablishes and discovers its new place in the world. Turmoil that includes serious questions over both the future of Scotland and possible resurgent issues in Northern Ireland.

We will survive, we will grow stronger, it's not all doom and gloom, they skies not falling in - but that doesn't mean we haven't just chosen a very long and bumpy road to follow.

 

[Zaph]

Leave won, so you can jump up and down all you like.... I am trying to come up with a solution that works for all, but again all we get is insults from remain voters

No, you're not trying to come up with solutions, you're simply stating what you want.

Like most Brexiters you're great at laying down demands, but not so much when it comes to making them workable.

 

[Cromwell]

Of course they will.

Did you think they were gonna trade embargo the UK?

Fucking lol that's one way they could have guaranteed a remain vote. Threaten embargo.

 

[Izuna]

Leave won, so you can jump up and down all you like.... I am trying to come up with a solution that works for all, but again all we get is insults from remain voters

So how bad do things have to get before you #Regrexit?

Is the scaremongering coming true enough?

 

[Palculator]

USA, Canada and Germany say they will maintain trade relations with Britain outside the EU.

This is just the beginning of the disbandment of the EU, more countries will come to their senses and leave soon enough.

I'm sure all the people who were expecting the UK to be put under embargo by the rest of the world (so no one) are very surprised about these news.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I think maybe I should clarify something just in case people are taking my posts wrong.

I am a committed Remainer. I voted Remain, I convinced a lot of other people to vote Remain, I am as shocked as many of you at the result and I firmly believe that the best outcome is for the UK not to leave the EU.

For those of you posting that "to avoid uncertainty" or to "get the best deal" we should invoke Art 50 immediately, do you realise that this would significantly worsen the possibility of remaining in the EU?

I think that remaining is a possible outcome, but it involves delicate handling - otherwise there will by very widespread problems with those who voted Leave.

I'll post further on this when I have time, but just want to clarify that I am not favouring delay in the start of negotiations just because of being bloody-minded or anything.

Nobody sensible could believe that philsheep.

I would like you to talk about the legality of things if you can.

 

[Tak3n]

Of course they will.

Did you think they were gonna trade embargo the UK?

of course they did as it fits remains rhetoric....they are desperate for the world to denounce us as racists and refuse to deal with us

which is funny as the roles have almost reversed, remain voters now want us fucked over so bad we cry

 

[Bits N Pieces]

If the EU give us favourable trade deals then they will have signed there own death warrants. Why give places like France, Holland, Switzerland etc hope?

 

[Thornton Reed]

Marr's comments about this being a revolt by the struggling against the cocky is fucking gross.

I was unemployed for 6-7 years of my 20s and I voted to remain. Those fucking dick heads don't get to own that narrative.

Looking at the exit pol data he is correct. He could have worded it better. I thought that open segment was pretty spot on

 

[Tak3n]

No, you're not trying to come up with solutions, you're simply stating what you want.

Like most Brexiters you're great at laying down demands, but not so much when it comes to making them workable.

how is that not workable, we even got a version of that in the reforms offered by the EU? I am not demanding anything, I am saying there has to be a offer to the leave voters, as much as you hate it the government is not just going to go...fuck them, should not of voted leave..

A solution that all can get on board with needs to be found...free movement of people is not it, so free movement lite is doable

 

[jufonuk]

Leave won, so you can jump up and down all you like.... I am trying to come up with a solution that works for all, but again all we get is insults from remain voters

Are your grandparents willing to give you biscuits now ?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Looking at the exit pol data he is correct. He could have worded it better. I thought that open segment was pretty spot on

My family have been labourers and farmers for centuries. Those fucking idiots DO NOT get to throw that bullshit at me. Not ever.

 

[Cromwell]

If the EU give us favourable trade deals then they will have signed there own death warrants.

Exactly.