Pai Pai Master
Banned
I don't see why this is a problem
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The Worst Thing About Avengers: Age of Ultron is Ultron (Spoilers)
- Thread starter HiResDes
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I don't see why this is a problem
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
There are a lot of problems with age of ultron, the movie doesn't really have strong focus. It almost always feels like the movie is trying to do something else and then some one has to walk in and be like REMEMBER ULTRON?
It also has extremely pointless character development scenes and I don't fault the movie for trying to have character exposition scenes like in hawkeyes house (yes this shit happens they all go to hawkeyes house and talk about their fucking feelings for 25 minutes), but I do fault it for doing it extremely poorly. The character exposition never feels intentionally written or core it feels like it was hot glued on at the expense of something else. It was a movie that was 30 minutes longer than it needed to be all for what? So we can get some emotional pay offs with characters? Sure that'd be the point except a good 70% of that character development never amounts to anything.
Cap and Thor in particular have their little mind control things happen but nothing really ever comes of it, they say to cap "you walked away from it fine" and then he says some edgy ass line like "i just haven't shown you my dark side" but nothing ever comes from that, he doesn't nearly kill a friend in the movie, he doesn't have a moment where he doubts himself, literally the next thing he does after that scene is have an extravagant fight with Ultron in South Korea or something.
There are so many dead ends with threads that just seemingly sprout up but don't lead anywhere. It's a very frustrating movie to watch. The overly long winded action scenes that felt very reminiscent of transformers 1 didn't particularly help. It felt like being over fed candy to the point that it stops being a great treat and you just want to get it away from your face.
It also has extremely pointless character development scenes and I don't fault the movie for trying to have character exposition scenes like in hawkeyes house (yes this shit happens they all go to hawkeyes house and talk about their fucking feelings for 25 minutes), but I do fault it for doing it extremely poorly. The character exposition never feels intentionally written or core it feels like it was hot glued on at the expense of something else. It was a movie that was 30 minutes longer than it needed to be all for what? So we can get some emotional pay offs with characters? Sure that'd be the point except a good 70% of that character development never amounts to anything.
Cap and Thor in particular have their little mind control things happen but nothing really ever comes of it, they say to cap "you walked away from it fine" and then he says some edgy ass line like "i just haven't shown you my dark side" but nothing ever comes from that, he doesn't nearly kill a friend in the movie, he doesn't have a moment where he doubts himself, literally the next thing he does after that scene is have an extravagant fight with Ultron in South Korea or something.
There are so many dead ends with threads that just seemingly sprout up but don't lead anywhere. It's a very frustrating movie to watch. The overly long winded action scenes that felt very reminiscent of transformers 1 didn't particularly help. It felt like being over fed candy to the point that it stops being a great treat and you just want to get it away from your face.
If I had the pick the nadir of this movie, it's Ultron's creation. One of the most important character decisions that is constantly scrutinized later, the birth of the main antagonist, the moment Tony Stark achieved the singularity, and... It's done with a bit of exposition and a brief montage.
Imagine Davud Croenenberg's The Fly if Seth Brundle's teleportation research and decision to teleport himself was crammed into a conversation and a montage.
We spend more time on Black Widow's and Hulk's romance, Hawkeye's conversations with his wife, a fight between Hulk and Iron Man, Nick Fury's mandatory appearance, and a bunch of nightmare sequences that go nowhere than we do on the creation of the main villain and conflict.
Imagine Davud Croenenberg's The Fly if Seth Brundle's teleportation research and decision to teleport himself was crammed into a conversation and a montage.
We spend more time on Black Widow's and Hulk's romance, Hawkeye's conversations with his wife, a fight between Hulk and Iron Man, Nick Fury's mandatory appearance, and a bunch of nightmare sequences that go nowhere than we do on the creation of the main villain and conflict.
Thank you for yet another of your drive-by shit posts, but I didn't write the movie so, alas, I cannot accept this award.
Sorry it was meant for Ultron.
Ouch.
Anton Sugar
Member
Yeah, it's almost comically bad. Would have fit into place in Weird Science or something.
Even his intro sequence as the zombie robot, which is probably his best appearance/scene in the film (aside from the final scene), just "happens".
Exactly. He fires at her from point blank range, and not only is she not killed, but she's also wounded and in good enough condition to tell Cap what Ultron's up to and what his plans are. It's just dumb. I mentioned this in the spoiler thread, but after a while, it feels like anybody who even gets a little bit of screentime in these movies (with an occasional exception) is untouchable.
Version 3.0
Member
The old arcade game? I forget what did it to him, but the Vision lost his pigmentation in an issue of the West Coast Avengers in the early 90's. So he was just white for a while. I think it had something to do with them bringing back the original Human Torch (who's not human, he's an android and supposedly was the same android body as the Vision). They retconned that, and somehow ended up with the Torch and a white Vision.
Don't know when he got his colors back.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Shouldn't the same AI program still be in the mind gem? That's where they found it, right?
Ultron should've been more Darth Vader and less...whatever it was they were trying to do.
A villain can be fun and entertaining because they're a just a well written and intimidating villain. They don't need to "Buffy speak" or be sarcastic to be fun.
I felt the exact same way! I'm normally a big fan of slower scenes like these (especially in these kind of movies). But something about that whole scene felt so off. It felt more of a "we need to set aside a scene for character development (specifically Hawkeye-- since he was a character that people had an issue with in the previous movie. So, here's a scene to rectify that)" rather than a natural progression of the story or even the characters themselves. Like you said, it all felt a little forced. Too on-the-nose.
Similar to how the "save-all-the-civilians/no civilians were harmed in the making of this movie" scenes felt to me. The evacuation of NY scene in the first Avengers felt seamless. This time round though, it felt like the movie was ticking off the checkboxes in a list of things they have to do. "Oh no, the Avengers are fighting in a crowded city again. We have to show this scene and this scene and this scene." Maybe it's because we were shown what...three city battles practically back-to-back that the signature "save-the-civilians" scenes started to feel too forced rather than something that should feel intrinsically natural.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
When a 2 hour movie has ten protagonists and also has to set up 3 other upcoming movies while telling a story on it's own it's never going to be enough time to develop a villain unfortunately.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Spoiler:
When he's ripped from the jet by the incredible hulk after killing the flash, the scene would have been 1009 x more powerful if they left out the "oh god."
When he's ripped from the jet by the incredible hulk after killing the flash, the scene would have been 1009 x more powerful if they left out the "oh god."
ChubbyHuggs
Member
The whole movie just seemed like a mash up of everything a kid would think is cool and that caused the movie to suffer.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Are you calling Whedon a big misogynist kid?
It was actually an exasperated "Oh for God's sake" which admittedly did get a chuckle out of me. But that's also the scene that I could point to that sums up everything that they did wrong with him as a villain.
The Big Rig
Member
My only question is:
When did robots get hearts? And why would they program them to feel pain?
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
It would have been more powerful if he had said nothing. Got a big ol eye roll from everyone in my theatre. You could hear the collective "squish" of 100s of eyes rolling in unison.
Schweinehund
Member
Is there any value from him returning?
It seems his story was told pretty much.
Ultron is their third best villain, after Loki and Red Skull. I wouldn't call any of them fantastic though. He did have the best intro for a marvel villain by far, then kind of waned as the movie went down.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
He's supposed to have Tony Stark's personality. That's why he kept making jokes. The "Oh for gods sake" was something that Tony would say. I mean he was the one making "Dick move Banner" jokes while The Hulk was tearing apart South Africa 30 minutes before.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Why would he have Starks personality? He's an AI program from a gem.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
That Tony Stark helped make. It's implied when he's meeting with Klaw and he said that line that Tony Stark used to tell Klaw. Why else would Ultron be subconsciously be repeating lines that Tony was using from his weapons dealing days a decade ago?
It's likely based on the framework of Tony's own mind. I wouldn't be surprised if a better explanation got cut, but they make multiple comparisons to Stark beyond the purely thematic.
Klaue pointing out "wait... I've heard Stark say that exact same thing..." Then later with Scarlet Witch - "Ultron can't tell the difference between destroying the world and saving it. Who do you think the gets that from?"
Bumma theater. We had plenty of folks laugh. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯I just attribute all his Bible-thumping to Whedon being a recovering catholic himself. It's not like it's exclusive to this movie he's done.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Right, but was that ever explained. They showed some program holo projected from the rock, a montage, and then spader holo murdering Jarvis. Did I miss something?
It's not like it's literally a heart... But it served the same purpose visually. And who says he was actually feeling pain? I don't recall him screaming or anything.
I think the MCU's desire to have each movie so self-contained will end up hurting it in the long run. The movies are starting to feel a little disjointed.
I really liked the way Ultron's origin was handled in Earth's Mightiest Heroes, especially compared to the classic "I made a robot and now it's trying to kill me"
There's a whole legion of Ultron robots that Hank Pym is using as prison guards. They're pretty simplistic, and because EMH-universe Hank built them they have no concept of violence. When the Avengers are about to get wiped out by Kang, Hank gets desperate and uploads combat protocols to one of the Ultrons. After that it starts displaying odd behaviour which over time escalates into a desire to destroy humanity.
I think my favourite part about this origin is that Hank getting fed up with his inability to find a workable pacifistic method of solving problems and bitching about it to Ultron is part of how he got the idea that humanity is the problem.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
Yea. I don't get how Tony flows from IM3 into this. Alternate timeline? Time stone shenanigans?
sooperkool
Member
I hate it every time someone asks this. Wanda using her power made Ultron feel what a heart being ripped out feels like. She had already proven that he was more than a Bot because she could "read" him. Sometimes I think you guys don't pay attention to what you're watching.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
The storytelling was pretty sloppy. I thought she was reading Ultrons consciousness partially in Visions body?
Ultron's base consciousness, yeah.
Robots don't have that shit, Ultron is a pretty special dude.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
What powered the force field at the beginning of the movie? Why didn't they collect all the crazy robots/tech when they raided the fort? They just left everything there?
plasmawave
Banned
The movie does a poor job of making him threatening.
SoulUnison
Banned
That's actually a good point/angle. Having Ultron be basically a re-mapping/application of the Mind Stone means that he's still basically out there in some fundamental way. "Ultron" wasn't a unique occurrence, "Tony Stark-Ultron" was.
The jist of why he's a bad villain is because he dies at the end?
Really?
He doesn't even have an on-screen death and while they wrap up everything in a nice neat bow, Ultron being able to just upload himself anywhere seems problematic enough as it is, especially since the internet is a thing now compared to the 60's.
He could come back, and I'd almost expect him to at some point, but this being the crux of this writer's argument is so weak. Like grasping at straws to knock the movie down a peg clickbait weak. There are flaws with the villain but this hardly even registers as one of them.
Really?
He doesn't even have an on-screen death and while they wrap up everything in a nice neat bow, Ultron being able to just upload himself anywhere seems problematic enough as it is, especially since the internet is a thing now compared to the 60's.
He could come back, and I'd almost expect him to at some point, but this being the crux of this writer's argument is so weak. Like grasping at straws to knock the movie down a peg clickbait weak. There are flaws with the villain but this hardly even registers as one of them.
Tony doesn't define all his self-worth by his suits.
It works. He decides that there needs to be a solution other than going out in a suit himself. He starts investigating AI beyond his largely failed attempt with 'Dummy' and rudimentary approach with Jarvis. He creates the Iron Legion as peacekeepers in his stead. This force is warped into Ultron.
As an arc it's pretty natural. His actions in Age of Ultron seem like trying to tie up loose ends before he gets out of the business of superheroing.
roflwaffles
Member
A villain can be fun and entertaining, while also being threatening and scary as hell. Hans Landa from Inglorious Basterds has been my favorite example of this the past few years. Charming, charismatic, and fun as hell to watch but yet he's absolutely terrifying.
The MCU movies kind of just don't let their villains flesh out and become real characters aside from Loki. I actually don't have a problem with Ultron's personality at all, but the movie doesn't really let you get engrossed in him. Unfortunately, I didn't find his scenes to be memorable but him as a character was just fine, probably since so much of the movie was centered on trying to give each Avenger a mini-arc that took up too much time. Even his grand gesture of lifting the city into the air felt hollow (perhaps because it reminded me way too much of the San Andreas trailer that was shown in the previews) and it didn't incite nearly the amount of emotion as say, the climax of DOFP where Mags lifts a baseball stadium and drops it at the conference, and the camera pans up and you see that he's barricaded the White House.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Its like blaming the writers that there's not already a sequel with Ultron coming back
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
It was at least stated pretty clearly on screen that Vision is a combination of Jarvis and Mind Stone; and it was shown that while Jarvis allowed Ultron to believe he'd been destroyed, Jarvis was in fact a more skilled AI (probably due to years of experience, where Ultron was brand new).
So Mind Stone + files on Tony Stark and a violent world = Ultron arises. Mind Stone + Jarvis' personality and history of working to help people = Vision.
One might see it as the Mind Stone has a nascent AI inside it that is required to contain and control all that power. In fact, all the infinity gems in this universe might have the same capabilities; a basic intelligence to manage the power cosmic. But that intelligence is very alien, and unpredictable things can happen when it is extracted and combined with other systems and information.
So Mind Stone + files on Tony Stark and a violent world = Ultron arises. Mind Stone + Jarvis' personality and history of working to help people = Vision.
One might see it as the Mind Stone has a nascent AI inside it that is required to contain and control all that power. In fact, all the infinity gems in this universe might have the same capabilities; a basic intelligence to manage the power cosmic. But that intelligence is very alien, and unpredictable things can happen when it is extracted and combined with other systems and information.
AKA "I didn't like it so I'm sure everyone else didn't either".
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
I enjoyed the movie. I thought it was just needlessly sloppy in a few areas.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
nearly the whole theater laughed at this and a ton of other parts for me
Anton Sugar
Member
Truth. That's really all there is to it. No need to get into "well, MY theatre..." battles.
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