• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The XXII Sochi Winter Olympic Games / Ski And Skate Against Hate

Status
Not open for further replies.
X

Xcrypto

Banned
About those base points,I really do not know much about technical stuff.But I think that offical newspapers and sport sites should criticize last figure skating event based on these points.
 
K

Kazerei

Banned
StarCreator said:
And that is different from this forum how?

Seriously - it's already been stated Yuna's program had 4 points fewer base value, and the final difference was barely more than that. It came down almost purely to the difficulty of the programs they executed, and Yuna's program was simpler. I'd like to think the system that was designed from the ground up to be objective and has stood for more than eight years now without significant alterations means it's worth at least the benefit of a doubt.



Maybe you should also learn to comprehend what I'm actually saying.
Click to expand...

And that's precisely the problem. Sotnikova's execution was much worse than Kim's, yet she was given super high marks anyway.

Edit: The score difference should have decreased after factoring in the judge's opinion, not increase.
 
Kadayi

Kadayi

Banned
Peru said:
Some interesting new information
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure how the judges been drawn by lots means the fix was in tbh. Also as they only came in to score today's event, how do you explain Sotnikova's high score yesterday? IIRC you where bitching about that earlier on as over marked as well. Also got to love the inherent implication by USA today that all eastern European judges are naturally going to vote positively for the Russians as a matter of course....

baekshi said:
Asada points are on par with Yuna.
Click to expand...

I suspect if Asada hadn't fallen in yesterdays event she'd probably have won tbh.
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Probably the only way to make figure skating "fair" is if you basically force everyone to do the same routines, which would take out a lot of the ambiguity from the sport. That'll never happen, and enough people watch it that it'll always just be a sideshow clouded with doubt.
 
S

StarCreator

Member
Kazerei said:
And that's precisely the problem. Sotnikova's execution was much worse than Kim's, yet she was given super high marks anyway.
Click to expand...

I did notice Sotnikova actually received some penalties in her grade of execution in the breakdown listed above, so there's that. I didn't do the math to see how it added up; I didn't see Sotnikova's skate, but while watching Yuna's I felt she didn't really deliver what she was capable of, and that she was kind of running out of steam near the end of her program. Certainly not what I remember seeing from her four years ago, when it felt like she could almost jump straight out of the rink.
 
P

Peru

Member
Kadayi said:
I'm not entirely sure how the judges been drawn by lots means the fix was in tbh. Also as they only came in to score today's event, how do you explain Sotnikova's high score yesterday? IIRC you where bitching about that earlier on as over marked as well. Also got to love the inherent implication by USA today that all eastern European judges are naturally going to vote positively for the Russians as a matter of course....
Click to expand...

It's interesting information, and not a good move for an organization with an image problem. I didn't say it was the only reason for wrong scores. She was over marked. You've yet to give any defense for your support for the free program being scored close to the world record with that level of execution. There are some figure skating afficionados on neogaf who have already chimed in with their disagreement and I'm sure would enjoy an in-depth debate with you.
 
Kadayi

Kadayi

Banned
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...g-yuna-kim-gracie-gold-ashley-wagner/5635671/

There are sure to be howls of protest over Sotnikova's victory, especially after Kim skated a program looking cleaner and more polished. This is figure skating, after all, and it wouldn't be the first time a skater benefited from home cooking.

Kim beat the Russian – barely – on the component marks, 74.50 to 74.41. But Sotnikova's program was more difficult, packed with jumps and high-value technical elements. She did seven triple jumps, five in combination, to six for Kim, only of which were in combination.

Sotnikova also got the maximum level 4s for all of her spins and footwork while Kim had Level 3s on one spin and one footwork sequence. Put it all
But skating is now a numbers game, and Sotnikova played it better.together, and it was the difference between silver (a 69.69 technical score for Kim) and gold (75.54 for Sotnikova).
Click to expand...


Peru said:
It's interesting information, and not a good move for an organization with an image problem. I didn't say it was the only reason for wrong scores. She was over marked. You've yet to give any defense for your support for the free program being scored close to the world record with that level of execution. There are some figure skating afficionados on neogaf who have already chimed in with their disagreement and I'm sure would enjoy an in-depth debate with you.
Click to expand...

Please, its finger pointing for reasons that detract from actually assessing the submitted routines and the scores themselves. They're all there on the main website to be picked over and perused. Kim was the better skater in terms of performance, but not in terms of complexity.

Fixed2BeBroken said:
I suspect if Sotnikova hadn't stumbled, she'd probably have won...WAIT A SECOND.....
Click to expand...

She completed the landing and she didn't fall. Kim beat her on the performance aspect.
 
C

cthoaa

Member
Parch said:
The figure skating commentators reaction was immediate. They were surprised and stunned.
Click to expand...
It depends on the broadcasters. NBCSN (Gannon, Lipinski, Weir) sounded stunned only momentarliy

baekshi said:
Asada points are on par with Yuna.
Click to expand...
Mao did eight triples, one being a triple axel. Sotnikova did seven triples. Yuna did six.

Also Mao and Adelina have more backloaded programs, and there's a bonus for jumps in the second half. Mao does seven jumps in the bonus, four of them triples. Adelina does seven jumps in the bonus, three of them triples. Yuna does six jumps in the bonus, two of them triples.

Mao and Adelina also got level fours on their spins and their step sequence. Yuna had a level 3 spin and a level 3 step sequence.
 
S

sphinx

the piano man
can someone please explain how does a short program with triple toe-loop - triple toe-loop combination land side by side to Yuna Kim's Triple Lutz - Triple Toe or even Carolina's Triple Flip - Triple Toe?

I saw adelina has that hard spin and she skated faster than Yuna and Carolina but was otherwise pretty fucking rough and unpolished.

I am not convinced.
 
F

Fixed2BeBroken

Member
The fact Sotnikova got PCS that high, higher than Kostner's and almost as high as Kim's is absolutely ridiculous. She has poor posture, carriage and lines, both of her programs had very little relation to the music in terms of style or character and her timing was mostly off. Her basic skating is pretty good but it's not great and it's not at the level of some of the other top skaters either.

Her technical elements were extremely impressive in both programs and a few quibbles aside, her high TES scores - in relation to the other skaters at least - were largely justified. But the PCS were not.

As compelling as the 'Russians bribed everybody' discourse is, cultural, social and psychological processes are usually more complex than that. I've been thinking about the possible reasons for the result going this way and the possible factors I could think of were:

Sotnikova genuinely skated well technically in both programs and bolstered by the huge support of the audience, the judges simply went with her on the PCS as well. Anchoring, plain and simple. An overall positive impression got carried over to all of the marks.

Secondly, not all of the judges had ballet or dance training and even if they did as skaters, they might not know much about it in terms of looking from the outside. So if a skater is totally off-time and/or their posture is weak, they might not even notice that.

Thirdly, if you ever try to judge a program in real time, you will notice that when the program is over, you have spent pretty much the entire time thinking about the GOE of the technical elements. The music finished and you probably don't even remember much about what happened in between. Which is why panels should be split into GOE and PCS judges, IMO.

A system for marking PCS still doesn't exist and the criteria are pretty vague. And time is very limited. So given all of these constraints, it's understandable the judges simply go with their gut feeling and don't give PCS marks much thought. How? When?

Finally, the looming shadow of the corridor means you are likely to mark how you expect the others to and will try to keep all of your marks 'in line' without obvious outliers.
Click to expand...

Said by someone who knows Figure skating apparently.

Basically....THAT SHIT IS SUBJECTIVE
 
B

baekshi

Banned
cthoaa said:
Also Mao and Adelina have more backloaded programs, and there's a bonus for jumps in the second half. Mao does seven jumps in the bonus, four of them triples. Adelina does seven jumps in the bonus, three of them triples. Yuna does six jumps in the bonus, two of them triples.

Mao and Adelina also got level fours on their spins and their step sequence. Yuna had a level 3 spin and a level 3 step sequence.
Click to expand...

Technical points, sure.

What about components?

Where did Adelina get those from? Kostner and Asada are way better.
 
F

freshair

Member
YLql5rs.gif
 
S

sphinx

the piano man
that was a very minor mistake, I think those of us who know about the sport are complaining about many other things.

my number 1 complain is:

from the moment she starts to the moment she finishes she's rough and unpolished. Her posture, her arm extension, the stroking and edges (something yuna kim and patrick chan are great at), all of it is of a skater that usually places somewhere around places 12 and 8. How does a skater with this lack of quality lands in the group of front runners in the short program when the other two skaters, that are WAY more polished, also delivered on the technical content doing harder jumping combinations?

she does have level 4 spins and solid technical content (but SOLID, it's not "OMFG did-you- see-her-jump?-can't-believe-my-eyes" good.

I am still have to look at the results of the short program very closely, I have too eat though lol
 
Kadayi

Kadayi

Banned
freshair said:
YLql5rs.gif
Click to expand...

She got under marked for that if you look at the score breakdown: -

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...omens-figure-skating-jumps.html?smid=fb-share

But the overall complexity of the routine still exceeded Yuna's

I have to say I'm amazed at how many members of GAF are south Korean though (who'd of thunk it?). Surely all this saltiness couldn't simply be because a certain countries psyche can't seem to handle the idea that Russians are capable of winning medals. Heavens forbid if Lipnitskaya hadn't had those couple of falls in the competition, I dread to think the amount of scorn that would of been poured on her if she'd won.
 
F

Fixed2BeBroken

Member
Kadayi said:
I have to say I'm amazed at how many members of GAF are south Korean though (who'd of thunk it?). Surely all this saltiness couldn't simply be because a certain country can't seem to handle the idea that Russians are capable of winning medals.
Click to expand...

ASSUMPTION MUCH?

you keep speaking of technical difficulty. by that regard...mao should have scored higher than adelina in the FS.

Honestly, I don't give a shit, I'm kinda just fueling the fire. as I said before, Figure skating is funny to me because of shit like this.
 
A

agrajag

Banned
Kadayi said:
She got under marked for that if you look at the score breakdown: -

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...omens-figure-skating-jumps.html?smid=fb-share

But the overall complexity of the routine still exceeded Yuna's

I have to say I'm amazed at how many members of GAF are south Korean though (who'd of thunk it?). Surely all this saltiness couldn't simply be because a certain countries psyche can't seem to handle the idea that Russians are capable of winning medals. Heavens forbid if Lipnitskaya hadn't had those couple of falls in the competition, I dread to think the amount of scorn that would of been poured on her if she'd won.
Click to expand...

rofl, figure skating is the Russians' marquee sport.

Also, Lipnitskaya was on another level in the team event. She was untouchable.
 
K

Kazerei

Banned
Kadayi said:
She got under marked for that if you look at the score breakdown: -

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...omens-figure-skating-jumps.html?smid=fb-share

But the overall complexity of the routine still exceeded Yuna's

I have to say I'm amazed at how many members of GAF are south Korean though (who'd of thunk it?). Surely all this saltiness couldn't simply be because a certain countries psyche can't seem to handle the idea that Russians are capable of winning medals. Heavens forbid if Lipnitskaya hadn't had those couple of falls in the competition, I dread to think the amount of scorn that would of been poured on her if she'd won.
Click to expand...

A certain country? Tell us which one.
 
S

StarCreator

Member
Fixed2BeBroken said:
ASSUMPTION MUCH?

you keep speaking of technical difficulty. by that regard...mao should have scored higher than adelina in the FS.

Honestly, I don't give a shit, I'm kinda just fueling the fire. as I said before, Figure skating is funny to me because of shit like this.
Click to expand...

Wow, so this is basically why you spent half an hour earlier this afternoon arguing against points I didn't make? This explains so much.
 
A

AyaisMUsikWhore

Member
Shining Sunshine said:
Just watching this again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqWJ7l2iZcU

Oh how bitter I felt back then in the grand robbery of 2002.
Click to expand...

I was too young to understand this but watching this made me cry. I cried because it was so beautiful and it touched my heart, then I started bawling when I found out they won silver and was ROBBBEEEEEED! This is the biggest robbery I've ever seen. Worst than the gymnastics robbery in Beijing... Wtf!?!
 
T

TCRS

Banned
Kadayi said:
She got under marked for that if you look at the score breakdown: -

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...omens-figure-skating-jumps.html?smid=fb-share

But the overall complexity of the routine still exceeded Yuna's

I have to say I'm amazed at how many members of GAF are south Korean though (who'd of thunk it?). Surely all this saltiness couldn't simply be because a certain countries psyche can't seem to handle the idea that Russians are capable of winning medals. Heavens forbid if Lipnitskaya hadn't had those couple of falls in the competition, I dread to think the amount of scorn that would of been poured on her if she'd won.
Click to expand...

oh please.. we are simply upset by what we saw was a little flawed performance by Adelina vs. a flawless performance by Yuna and that the flawed performance got marked so high. a sentiment that most experts and commentators so far seem to agree with.
 
X

Xcrypto

Banned
Kadayi said:
She got under marked for that if you look at the score breakdown: -

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...omens-figure-skating-jumps.html?smid=fb-share

But the overall complexity of the routine still exceeded Yuna's

I have to say I'm amazed at how many members of GAF are south Korean though (who'd of thunk it?). Surely all this saltiness couldn't simply be because a certain countries psyche can't seem to handle the idea that Russians are capable of winning medals. Heavens forbid if Lipnitskaya hadn't had those couple of falls in the competition, I dread to think the amount of scorn that would of been poured on her if she'd won.
Click to expand...
I am from post soviet (USSR) republic and I admit that after watching it closely I had no other choice but to think it is unfair.However,after digging into details and reading many articles I came to conclusion that I was mistaken.But this does not change some of my thought though.I still think that Adelina is not suitable for the winner where we have athletes ( yes, it is not dancing event) who perform more elegantly and artistic.I also think that the winner should have room for small mistakes.
 
S

Silexx

Member
bonesmccoy said:
I think they just recently said that they won't, and that in the next Olympics they want to have 10 teams competing.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

I have to admit, whenever the talk arises of Women's Hockey possibly being taken out of the Olympics because of two countries dominating, it kinda ticks me off because we have the Dutch basically sweeping the medals in speed skating, yet no one threatens to take that sport out.
 
B

Bigfoot

Member
it wouldn't be a Winter Olympics without some judging controversy. In this Olympics, we have had two... first the USA-Russia points swapping for the team event and ice dancing, and now this one with the Women's figure skating.

Silexx said:
Exactly.

I have to admit, whenever the talk arises of Women's Hockey possibly being taken out of the Olympics because of two countries dominating, it kinda ticks me off because we have the Dutch basically sweeping the medals in speed skating, yet no one threatens to take that sport out.
Click to expand...
Doesn't the USA dominate in basketball at the Summer Olympics? How come they never threaten to remove that sport?
 
Kadayi

Kadayi

Banned
agrajag said:
Also, Lipnitskaya was on another level in the team event. She was untouchable.
Click to expand...

True that. Still she's only 15 so she's got plenty of opportunity to secure gold for the individual in future competitions. I thought Sotnikova saw her opportunity and really went for it in terms of a gutsy performance and came through on the Ice today (you could see she was enjoying herself as she went through every stage). She'd been written off prior to the competition due to rising star of Lipnitskaya and so she really didn't have anything to lose, so hats off to her for her giving her all.

If there should be any criticism over the result it's kind of really on Yuna playing it safe and not actually changing up the complexity of her routine in response to Sotnikova versus the submitted program. A potentially risky move as the penalties are heavy if you flubb but never the less she must of known when she stepped onto the ice that she was at a technical points disadvantage.
 
J

jokkir

Member
TCRS said:
oh please.. we are simply upset by what we saw was a little flawed performance by Adelina vs. a flawless performance by Yuna and that the flawed performance got marked so high. a sentiment that most experts and commentators so far seem to agree with.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? We're Korean rooting for Yuna apparently
 
S

Silkworm

Member
Silexx said:
Exactly.

I have to admit, whenever the talk arises of Women's Hockey possibly being taken out of the Olympics because of two countries dominating, it kinda ticks me off because we have the Dutch basically sweeping the medals in speed skating, yet no one threatens to take that sport out.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they've got 21 medals for speed skating out of their 22 total medals. Dominance in speed skating is definitely true for the Dutch this year. However in Vancouver the Netherlands only had 7 medals in speed skating. So it sort of balances out. *shrug*
 
G

gabbo

Member
Silexx said:
Exactly.

I have to admit, whenever the talk arises of Women's Hockey possibly being taken out of the Olympics because of two countries dominating, it kinda ticks me off because we have the Dutch basically sweeping the medals in speed skating, yet no one threatens to take that sport out.
Click to expand...

It's more to do with the number of teams entering each Olympics, and those sports, while heavily dominated by those countries, is not completely dominated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

  • Locked
NASA Satellite Sees Sochi Winter Olympics Venues from Space (big pics)
9
2K
bistromathics replied
Anyone else interested in Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games
2
50
7K
Exile20 replied
Mario and Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Oympics |OT| Skating on the thin ice of Next Gen
2 3
136
23K
kunonabi replied
Mario & Sonic 2014 Olympic Winter Games release date nailed for NA (Nov/8th)
30
4K
Exile20 replied
  • Locked
The Official 2010 Winter Olympics Thread - "Angry Wayne Gretzky is Angry" Edition
220 221 222 223 224
11K
481K
s_mirage replied
Top Bottom