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[alysonwheel]

Soooo there is a thread on gaf where a transgendered person tried to use the female bathroom. The girls took issue with this and yelled. The person wouldn't leave so they started pulling and punching and kicking. My question is has anyone ever been in a similar situation and what bathroom do you use?

I never had any trouble in the womens' loos, mainly because I was dumb and carried on using the mens' loos way too long. Quoting myself from another website:

This all actually reminds me of a time I was dumb enough to use the men's toilets in a pub. The family had booked a room upstairs for a big celebration, and family and friends from all across the land were coming. This was so early in my transition I'd only just told my parents, so I guy'd it up for the night. Because I had been on the mones for six months or so by this point, "guying it up" was basically a great big floppy hoodie and baggy trousers, the better to hide... well, me.

After a while and a few drinks I need to pee, as you do, so I go downstairs into the pub proper and, after a little agonising, choose the men's toilets. I didn't really think there'd be any consequences to this (apart from to my wounded self-esteem) since I always did underestimate how much I'd changed.

So anyway, I go in and take the cubicle (and as I type this it occurs to me that I haven't seen a urinal for like nine years; strange) and do my amazing thing. As I'm in there I hear a couple of people, obviously drunk, stumble in. One of them, it seems, is gagging for a poo. And starts banging on the door.

After 30 seconds or so of abject terror, I open the door and this huge biker guy, all leather jacket and beard and cider breath stares down at me. He does a double take, looking at me, then the urinals, then me, and tells me I'm in the wrong bog. In my second idiot mistake of the night, I squeak that no, I'm in the right place, this is the men's toilet, argh argh argh.

He looks at me. Stands there and looks at me for what felt like a lifetime but was probably about ten seconds, then bursts out laughing, reaches forward and pulls me into this huge sweaty beardy hug. "You had me going for a minute there, love!" he yells at me. Then he pushes me towards the sink so I can wash up and says something like, "Best get out of here before someone ungentlemanly comes in!"

He slaps my arse on the way out.

For the rest of the night I pee under a tree.

 

[samus i am]

I never had any trouble in the womens' loos, mainly because I was dumb and carried on using the mens' loos way too long. Quoting myself from another website:

Hahaha thanks for answering, great story!

 

[Amalthea]

I don't live as a woman yet but I've been using woman bathrooms when the men ones were out of order or full and no one cared.

Assaulting someone isn't very polite anyway.

 

[A Human Becoming]

I've been meaning to poke my head in this thread for awhile now.

I realized some months ago that I had a negative view of people who are transgender. I'm not going to blame anyone or anything, but things like "tranny surprise" were an influence. So now I'm trying to be more open minded and tolerant. I know I was being prejudice, but the feelings still linger with me. It just feels like the idea of sex and gender being the same has been engraved in my head. I don't know anyone who is transgender, only a friend of a friend.

I don't expect a real answer, but does it just take time for your gut reactions to match your attitude? Do you know anyone else who had to change their conception of gender?

 

[mollipen]

The only exciting bathroom story I have is that I was directed to the woman's bathroom by a security guard a few months back when I was in no way dressed or attempting to look female. He only realized his mistake when he then saw me getting confused as to which direction he had sent me in.

I don't expect a real answer, but does it just take time for your gut reactions to match your attitude? Do you know anyone else who had to change their conception of gender?

I used to have what I think might be a rather typical opinion of the whole transgender thing: I never thought trans people were terrible or deviants or anything like that, but the idea kind of weirded me out and I felt a little uncomfortable if I was around somebody who was. Even when I started having to deal with my actual situation and that possibility, the first time I went and saw my psychologist I flat out told him that I had no interest in the idea of transitioning because the idea seemed weird to me.

So, even for me, I understand having those feelings, and I think a lot of it comes from simply not understanding what's going on in relation to being transgender.

I think it's like a lot of things: most people don't have direct contact with somebody from that walk of life, so the only exposure they get is through media or the internet - things that get far more joy out of providing negative examples over positive ones. It reminds me more than a little of the situation that Muslims face: for most people, all they know about that culture are the negative aspects, and so there's a level of fear, misunderstanding, or confusion. If more people were able to meet somebody who was Muslim and really get to know them, they'd be able to get a real opinion of who they are as a person.

Unfortunately, there's still a long way to go in terms of the trans community really being understood. Look at the gay/lesbian side of things - while we still have a ton of work left to be done in terms of tolerance and understanding, more and more people have come to see that people who are gay are just normal human beings like everybody else.

I think about my mom, and how she loves Ellen's daytime show. Not that my mom was ever homophobic, but it was more of a case of her just having no understanding of that side of life. She knows that Ellen is gay, but it's not a big deal: Ellen is just Ellen. For Ellen, the first step was to fight for the ability to say "I'm gay" and not be shunned by the industry and her fans. Now, that part is almost an afterthought, and that's exactly the position she wants to be in: back to being sees as "just another person" while also no longer having to hide that side of herself.

That process hasn't begun yet for people who are transgender, I don't think. There have been a few examples of people who are trans/cross dressers out there, but none that I think that have really risen beyond the gimmick. Being trans is still either an easy joke or a source for countless amounts of porn. Unfortunately, for some people who are trans, that's the life they find themselves having to turn to. I would never say there shouldn't be trans-related porn, because I think all kinds of porn should exist so long as it's legal. Yet, at the same time, people in that culture are purposely helping to continue the stereotypes and fetish-fication (I know, that's so not a word) of themselves when doing what they do, and continuing to help "tranny" and "shemale" and whatever else propagate and have certain connotations associated with them.

 

[lexi]

Incidentally, there was a period where GAF was fairly civil regarding transgender issues, and that seems to have gone out the window lately.

 

[Parallax]

Incidentally, there was a period where GAF was fairly civil regarding transgender issues, and that seems to have gone out the window lately.

dont take a handful of opinionated individuals as forums overall opinion. i believe that gaf is fairly civil with most causes. and the ones that dont go along usually dont last

 

[Nishastra]

Incidentally, there was a period where GAF was fairly civil regarding transgender issues, and that seems to have gone out the window lately.

"GAF" isn't really a collective, though. There's always going to be... bad apples.

If anything, it was civil because the offenders immediately got banned and then potential offenders stayed quiet for fear of being banned.

Just like with everything else GAF bans for, some people don't stop posting it because they genuinely disagree with it, they stop posting it because they don't want to get banned.

 

[Acerac]

Incidentally, there was a period where GAF was fairly civil regarding transgender issues, and that seems to have gone out the window lately.

It shouldn't surprise you that many in that thread were juniors. They won't last. It's unfortunate, but some people think their paranoia is worth hurting others over.

 

[lexi]

It shouldn't surprise you that many in that thread were juniors. They won't last. It's unfortunate, but some people think their paranoia is worth hurting others over.

Actually the most offensive diatribe came from a member of five years. Triple U.

But point taken, there were a large amount of juniors there too.

 

[dream]

I honestly think a lot of it stems from unfamiliarity. Transgenderism isn't something most people come in contact with so they just don't know how to react.

I get that it feels like shit when people say ridiculous things about your gender identity - and it's even worse when they tell you you're wrong about the gender you identify with - but I really think killing them with kindness is the best approach here. Some of the snarky defensiveness I've seen in that thread just seems to make people tune out. That seems like a wasted opportunity to explain why they're wrong.

 

[Acerac]

Actually the most offensive diatribe came from a member of five years. Triple U.

But point taken, there were a large amount of juniors there too.

Yeah I'm not gonna lie I'm pretty surprised he's not gotten a break for some of the shit he said in that thread. I get the feeling that the thread exploded while no mods were watching as a lot of shit seemed to be getting free passes there... =/

 

[Particle Physicist]

Incidentally, there was a period where GAF was fairly civil regarding transgender issues, and that seems to have gone out the window lately.

I never got to make this response in that thread before it was locked, so I'll do it here.... doubt it will be seen by him though:




http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27334465&postcount=818

Then you realize that bodies don't determine the gender of the person, its the brain.



Its not "life", its what bigoted people are actively doing. The attitude can change, like so many other bigoted beliefs. A cis woman is not going to know I'm trans either way. And even if I didn't pass, it only would "damage" her because of social conditioning that all transpeople are perverts. By your reasoning, no bathroom is safe for me.

That is factually not correct.

This is straight cut and paste from my medical school's lecture notes:

Determination of gender – it’s not that simple.

Chromosomal sex determines gonadal sex which determines phenotypic sex. Gender, on the other hand, is an individual’s representation of him/her self.

 

[lexi]

I honestly think a lot of it stems from unfamiliarity. Transgenderism isn't something most people come in contact with so they just don't know how to react.

I get that it feels like shit when people say ridiculous things about your gender identity - and it's even worse when they tell you you're wrong about the gender you identify with - but I really think killing them with kindness is the best approach here. Some of the snarky defensiveness I've seen in that thread just seems to make people tune out. That seems like a wasted opportunity to explain why they're wrong.

Yeah I'm not really good with that. I'm probably the worst. I've become embittered over the years and really gave up on being nice. I'm naturally snarky, so it just happens that way.

I don't actually think anything I say, regardless of tone or being kind will change anything. The only way I've seen people like this change is when they actually know a transperson, and know they're not some monster waiting in restrooms to rape people.

 

[Parallax]

Yeah I'm not really good with that. I'm probably the worst.

I don't actually think anything I say, regardless of tone or being kind will change anything. The only way I've seen people like this change is when they actually know a transperson, and know they're not some monster waiting in restrooms to rape people.

im actually kinda curious where the "rape" thing comes from

 

[dream]

Yeah I'm not really good with that. I'm probably the worst.

I don't actually think anything I say, regardless of tone or being kind will change anything. The only way I've seen people like this change is when they actually know a transperson, and know they're not some monster waiting in restrooms to rape people.

Yeah, there are going to be people who will die thinking "lexi? yeah, that's a dude/tranny/trap!" no matter how calmly or passionately you explain things to them.

But you know what? It's worth it if one person reads it and learns from it.

 

[lexi]

im actually kinda curious where the "rape" thing comes from

As far as I know, it's the defense that social conservatives mount as a part of their anti-trans agenda.

 

[Stellares]

I'm usually nice to people, but those statements in that thread hurt a lot.

 

[Parallax]

As far as I know, it's the defense that social conservatives mount as a part of their anti-trans agenda.

it doesnt make sense, how are trans any more capable of rape than anyone else? its not like theres a history of it. it just seems so damn random

 

[etiolate]

im actually kinda curious where the "rape" thing comes from

It comes from what is taught in rape prevention and a general attitude that promotes a fear of males and from that an idea of the penis as a weapon. When introduced with the trans issue and bathroom norms, the two clash. I don't see any easy resolution to the issue at this time.

 

[lexi]

I'm usually nice to people, but those statements in that thread hurt a lot.

Agreed. So many baseless statements made as if they were pure fact. As if they knew more about the issue than I do. It was just utterly demeaning.

 

[Nishastra]

Goddamnit, I keep writing up these long posts, but then I read them and realize that they're way too angry and won't actually accomplish anything anyway.

I really think killing them with kindness is the best approach here. Some of the snarky defensiveness I've seen in that thread just seems to make people tune out. That seems like a wasted opportunity to explain why they're wrong.

You're not wrong. Yelling at them won't accomplish anything.

But I don't think trying to be rational and nice will work either in this case. When someone's first reaction is "you should never be allowed near children because you're probably going to molest them", there's nothing rational to respond to. They're just ascribing an unrelated negative trait to a group they don't like to rationalize their bigotry. It's the same as the "gay people are predisposed to be paedophiles" thing.

 

[dream]

I'm usually nice to people, but those statements in that thread hurt a lot.

I know.

Consider this though - I'm guilty of playing the trannysurprise game too. At one point, I didn't think someone could change their gender because...you know, if you're born a dude, you're a dude. Reading all the stories everyone's shared in this thread changed my mind because there was no bitterness or angry defensiveness. Me realizing lexi is really a girl only happened because she openly and honestly her situation and it convinced me that the concept of gender isn't as rigid as I had once thought.

 

[Parallax]

It comes from what is taught in rape prevention and a general attitude that promotes a fear of males and from that an idea of the penis as a weapon. When introduced with the trans issue and bathroom norms, the two clash. I don't see any easy resolution to the issue at this time.

but if you dont consider yourself male, then there should be no stigma. i still dont quite understand

 

[InfiniteNine]

But I don't think trying to be rational and nice will work either in this case. When someone's first reaction is "you should never be allowed near children because you're probably going to molest them", there's nothing rational to respond to. They're just ascribing an unrelated negative trait to a group they don't like to rationalize their bigotry. It's the same as the "gay people are predisposed to be paedophiles" thing.

Oh wow, did someone actually say this? ):

 

[lexi]

Oh wow, did someone actually say this? ):

More than one person, yes.

Dream, I really think you're right about my approach. I will try to turn down the snark in future.

 

[etiolate]

but if you dont consider yourself male, then there should be no stigma. i still dont quite understand

huh? It doesn't matter what the trans person thinks, it matters what the others think.

Maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe I didn't understand where you were coming from with the rape question, but the fear of rape from males within a bathroom is very real and something that happens. There is a general fear of male sexuality and a rape prevention class focuses primarily on the issue of rape from males. This creates a fear of anything with a penis. It doesn't matter if you don't consider yourself male as much as it doesn't matter if you consider yourself a non-rapist, because in the mind of others you have the potential.

 

[Derwind]

I know.

Consider this though - I'm guilty of playing the trannysurprise game too. At one point, I didn't think someone could change their gender because...you know, if you're born a dude, you're a dude. Reading all the stories everyone's shared in this thread changed my mind because there was no bitterness or angry defensiveness. Me realizing lexi is really a girl only happened because she openly and honestly her situation and it convinced me that the concept of gender isn't as rigid as I had once thought.

I had a similar realization. Though it was mostly due to the fact that I have a cousin by marriage who is transgender. While I'd dismiss the issue as some being a "attention-*****", I realized its a little bit deeper than this.

As soon as I started socializing and find more lgbtq individuals after I graduated from Highschool. I started forcing myself to try understand their perspectives.

Even though I'll never fully understand how psychologically damaging it can be to be a person who is rarely tolerated, generally humiliated and the greater society constantly pushing how wrong you are for not living a lie. I want to conduct myself as if the discrimination of transgender folk is my own issue and if I can, at least help others to tolerate someones freedom to express themselves.

I'm a black male and while I know their are individuals who'll criticizes because of the melanin in my skin. I'll never be as globally attacked as people within the lgbtq community.

If I have to, I'll be a vocal ally if I can. And learn a little along the way as well.

Peace & Love.

 

[Gaborn]

I just wanted to stop by and say that I missed that thread... and now I wish I had continued to miss it. GAF has really sort of been disappointing me lately.

 

[NewGamePlus]

I agree with what etiolate is saying. The issue particularly compounds around men whom wonder into women's bathrooms. It shows a clear disrespect for boundaries which then moves them further up the potential predator scale.

Of course, trans women aren't men. Nor are they engaged in some elaborate scheme to harm children. In that sense, I don't agree that there is no solution. The solution is simply education about transgender individuals.

 

[Acerac]

it doesnt make sense, how are trans any more capable of rape than anyone else? its not like theres a history of it. it just seems so damn random

It's a powerful thing to accuse somebody you disagree with of. If you can convince people that it is true, then you have demonized as enemy just like that.

 

[Dead Man]

I just wanted to stop by and say that I missed that thread... and now I wish I had continued to miss it. GAF has really sort of been disappointing me lately.

Yeah. I bailed pretty early on that thread, just caught up on it. Pretty horrible shit in there. I would say I saw a lot of gaffers saying good things in there, so don't think the arseholes represent all of GAF.

And to A Human Becoming, a very fitting username, and an admirable attitude. I used to be a bit of a racist prick when I was a kid, but happily I think it was mostly a conformity thing, I don't have negative gut reactions or anything any more, so yeah, I think change is certainly possible.

 

[mollipen]

I had no idea what was going on in that thread until now, as I had only seen it when it was on page one. WOW. I probably would have gotten myself banned had I been in there. *heh*

 

[CHEEZMO™]

What's this thread everyone's on about?

 

[Jintor]

I honestly don't give a shit whether it's a chemical impulse or a genetic thingymagig or a person's choice. As long as it's not harming anybody else, what's the problem?

 

[lexi]

What's this thread everyone's on about?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428151&page=6

 

[water_wendi]

Heres some good news that happened the other day in my state to balance out that crappiness of today.

Assembly passes transgender discrimination bill
http://www.lvrj.com/news/nevada-assembly-passes-transgender-discrimination-bill-120127269.html

In a monumental vote for one of the state's least-known minorities, the state Assembly Monday backed a bill that would outlaw job discrimination against transgender people.

Thats about all that needs to be quoted. Its a nice little victory

 

[Platy]

and on page 11 it gets into the trans issues .... and because of that, it was blocked.....

So ... how is Jamie new login going on ?


edit :
Those news about discrimination being outlawed makes me think that it was OK if you was fired and your boss came to you and said "your work is awesome, but i fired you because you are X" ....wich sounds insanely wrong if you substitute X for anything that don't have to do with how the job is done.

 

[lexi]

and on page 11 it gets into the trans issues .... and because of that, it was blocked.....

So ... how is Jamie new login going on ?

She registered for a new account and it hasn't been approved. It will probably be well after E3, or whenever, I understand sometimes you can be waiting a long time.

 

[Platy]

Her account is like 3 years old .... we can't talk to the mods or something like that to speed up the process or just plain change her old email ?

 

[lexi]

Her account is like 3 years old .... we can't talk to the mods or something like that to speed up the process or just plain change her old email ?

We tried that, and were met with silence.

 

[PhoenixDark]

We tried that, and were met with silence.

Ask Amir0x.

 

[theDeeDubs]

Do you ever have moments of self-doubt or worry about irreversible surgery? If you did, is it something that eventually goes away or is it something you struggle with much like a person of faith would struggle with doubt? I really hope that didn't come out offensive, just honestly curious about that aspect.

There's a transgendered person in my neighborhood and it bugs me that people make fun of her. It has to be so much easier for people who can pass as the gender they want to be.

 

[lexi]

Ask Amir0x.

Thanks, I just PM'ed him.

Do you ever have moments of self-doubt or worry about irreversible surgery? If you did, is it something that eventually goes away or is it something you struggle with much like a person of faith would struggle with doubt? I really hope that didn't come out offensive, just honestly curious about that aspect.

There's a transgendered person in my neighborhood and it bugs me that people make fun of him. It has to be so much easier for people who can pass as the gender they want to be.

I had moments of doubt, especially in the beginning, before I committed to actually doing anything about it. I also had moments of doubt before I started passing -- so I can't imagine how that might be for someone who has trouble in that area.

The transgendered person you mention, are they a transwoman or transman? (MTF or FTM)

 

[InfiniteNine]

Took a look at the thread and boy that was horrible. I don't know how I would have responded if I checked it out when it was still open but the things some of them said really is really depressing.

 

[theDeeDubs]

Thanks, I just PM'ed him.



I had moments of doubt, especially in the beginning, before I committed to actually doing anything about it. I also had moments of doubt before I started passing -- so I can't imagine how that might be for someone who has trouble in that area.

The transgendered person you mention, are they a transwoman or transman? (MTF or FTM)

Transwoman.

Edit* People are so damn mean sometimes. If it wasn't that they'd just pick something else I'm sure.

 

[lexi]

Transwoman.

Would they appreciate being referred to with male pronouns? It gets a bit messy here I know, but it can be a sensitive and touchy subject.

 

[theDeeDubs]

Would they appreciate being referred to with male pronouns? It gets a bit messy here I know, but it can be a sensitive and touchy subject.

Oh I use ma'am and miss when speaking to Dianne.

 

[lexi]

I was just confused cause you referred to them as him.

 

[theDeeDubs]

I was just confused cause you referred to them as him.

Woops just realized what you meant. Sorry.