Support NeoGAF

[lexi]

Woops just realized what you meant. Sorry.

It's fine. The problem with pronouns and transgender people is that it can be both a very innocent and honest mistake and used for ill purposes by people who would absolutely deny them the courtesy of using it.

I can appreciate you just made a little mistake, and that's no problem.

 

[Boogiepop]

Ugh, just read through that thread, and it's disgusting to see people thinking like that.
Really just enforces how much I imagine the bathroom issue must suck as a transgendered person, as it seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't type thing.

 

[Shurs]

Lexi,

I'm going through that McDonalds thread now and just caught the beginning of the bathroom argument you were having with other posters, so I don't know if this was addressed there, but I do have a question:

Do you apply the same rule for yourself to, say, a women's locker room/shower?

 

[Platy]

I don't think that any pre-op trans person would be confortable showing nude in front of strangers ....
But most of public baths have closed spaces where nobody sees anything, so why would it be different ?

And ... besides maybe gynaecologists

Spoiler

(and i say maybe because they are also specialists in how the female hormones works with stuffs like breasts and the body in general)

... i don't see where any trans people could be where a cys person can't

 

[lexi]

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable in that environment, I wouldn't put myself in a situation where I'd use those facilities unless I had to.

Post-op though, sure, why not.

 

[Shurs]

So I guess the question then comes down to whether or not public restrooms/locker rooms are meant to be segregated by gender or by sex.

My initial, and completely ignorant thought on the matter was that they were intended to be separated by sex given the Men's/Women's (terms I've been identifying with sex) room classification rather than Male's/Female's (terms I've been identifying with gender) room and how bathrooms for everyone are commonly referred to as "Unisex." But, really, I'm probably wrong there, as I assume that Man/Male probably aren't only associated as I had them in my head and can be swapped with one another; e.g. "I identify as male" and "I identify as a man."

It totally makes sense to me that a person identifying as male or female would want/expect to use the respective bathrooms of the genders they identify with. It seems easy enough to respect their wishes.

 

[Gaborn]

So I guess the question then comes down to whether or not public restrooms/locker rooms are meant to be segregated by gender or by sex.

My initial, and completely ignorant thought on the matter was that they were intended to be separated by sex given the Men's/Women's (terms I've been identifying with sex) room classification rather than Male's/Female's (terms I've been identifying with gender) room and how bathrooms for everyone are commonly referred to as "Unisex." But, really, I'm probably wrong there, as I assume that Man/Male probably aren't only associated as I had them in my head and can be swapped with one another; e.g. "I identify as male" and "I identify as a man."

It totally makes sense to me that a person identifying as male or female would want/expect to use the respective bathrooms of the genders they identify with. It seems easy enough to respect their wishes.

It's worth noting I guess that a FTM who played NCAA division 1 basketball used the girl's locker room even though he identifies as male. Personally I think it's whatever is comfortable. There are definitely tricky issues to work out to make everyone happy (and I suspect EVERYONE being happy with every situation is impossible) but in general the key is communication about these issues.

 

[Platy]

Bathrooms were created by people who didn't know gay and lesbian people existed, much less trans =P

In a perfect world bathrooms would be unisex and will have closed stalls where you do your stuff and nobody see.

 

[tiff]

I know.

Consider this though - I'm guilty of playing the trannysurprise game too. At one point, I didn't think someone could change their gender because...you know, if you're born a dude, you're a dude. Reading all the stories everyone's shared in this thread changed my mind because there was no bitterness or angry defensiveness. Me realizing lexi is really a girl only happened because she openly and honestly her situation and it convinced me that the concept of gender isn't as rigid as I had once thought.

You're absolutely right but when faced with the level of ignorance and intolerance being displayed in that thread, implicitly attacking transpeople's identities, maintaining level-headed and rational discourse is asking for a lot.

If statements that ignorant were made about certain other minority groups they would have been roundly ridiculed, but such isn't the case for the transgendered. It's understandably frustrating.

 

[alysonwheel]

So I guess the question then comes down to whether or not public restrooms/locker rooms are meant to be segregated by gender or by sex.

I've always gone with what seems safe. Soon as I realised I didn't look like a bloke any more I switched to using the women's loos and changing facilities, although I avoided going swimming or using changing facilities with no private showers or anything like that until I was post-op. Just choosing whatever isn't going to get me outed against my will; more practical than ideological.

 

[AceBandage]

Bathrooms were created by people who didn't know gay and lesbian people existed, much less trans =P

In a perfect world bathrooms would be unisex and will have closed stalls where you do your stuff and nobody see.

I dunno about that.
I'm a guy, and I barely want to share bathrooms with other guys. No way girls would go for that. We're filthy.

 

[gerg]

Bathrooms were created by people who didn't know gay and lesbian people existed, much less trans =P

In a perfect world bathrooms would be unisex and will have closed stalls where you do your stuff and nobody see.

I'm not sure about that, either. The practicality of urinals probably means that whether they're attached to unisex stalls or not you're probably always going to have an exclusively "male" zone. And if you're going to have exclusively male urinals you may as well just separate male and female loos entirely.

Speaking as a gay person I have no problem using toilets with other men. In fact, you might argue that the separation is useful for gay people - George Michael certainly found it convenient. ; )

 

[Derwind]

I dunno about that.
I'm a guy, and I barely want to share bathrooms with other guys. No way girls would go for that. We're filthy.

Perpetuating this stereotype is not really helping anything. Apparently guys for the most part have cleaner facilities overall. :shrug

I remember seeing a unisex bathroom in a hotel in Amsterdam, Holland once, it was an odd sight to behold.

Men and Women casually walking into the same washroom, filled all with stalls & sinks. No urinals sadly.... =_=

 

[notworksafe]

I dunno about that.
I'm a guy, and I barely want to share bathrooms with other guys. No way girls would go for that. We're filthy.

Clearly you've never been in a women's restroom.

 

[samus i am]

Yes, unisex bathrooms are awesome. I don't know about anybody else but I have a shy bladder and if I am at a urinal it takes a long time to get going. Using the stall is the best way to go.

 

[Platy]

. And if you're going to have exclusively male urinals you may as well just separate male and female loos entirely.

No urinals ... if urinals were really usefull people would have then in their own home =P

Just a simple toilet like the one you have at home is more than enoght

 

[gerg]

No urinals ... if urinals were really usefull people would have then in their own home =P

Just a simple toilet like the one you have at home is more than enoght

If elevators were really useful people would have them in their homes, too, right?

I understand that some people may feel uncomfortable when using single sex bathrooms, and that's unfortunate. However, there are practical concerns when designing bathrooms in public spaces that may demand them - urinals, for example, save space that may then allow for greater space to be allocated to the women's loos, so that roughly the same number of women can use the women's bathroom as men can use theirs.

Of course, as I've said above, perhaps a better solution is just to have a unisex bathroom that also contains urinals. I've never heard of that, though, so it'd be an interesting trial to see it done.

 

[Platy]

If elevators were really useful people would have them in their homes, too, right?

4:07 xD

 

[lexi]

Would you mind telling us a bit about yourself Alyson? I feel I can tell from your word choice / stories that you're from Britain.

 

[AceBandage]

No urinals ... if urinals were really usefull people would have then in their own home =P

Just a simple toilet like the one you have at home is more than enoght

Pee in the sink GAF assemble?

 

[Gaborn]

Would you mind telling us a bit about yourself Alyson? I feel I can tell from your word choice / stories that you're from Britain.

It was "loo" that gave it away for me

 

[Nishastra]

It was "loo" that gave it away for me

Also "bloke"

 

[CHEEZMO™]

And the "love".

Northern?

 

[Stellares]

I can comfirm that women's bathrooms are often worse than mens, sadly. :/

I use the women's locker room, but I change in a stall.

 

[alysonwheel]

Would you mind telling us a bit about yourself Alyson? I feel I can tell from your word choice / stories that you're from Britain.

Yep, I'm British; from the South but I've lived in the North seven or so years now. I'm 31 and I transitioned when I was 21ish. I gave being trans a sporting chance at screwing my life up good and proper before I transitioned, though, abandoning all my friends and dropping out of university and cutting myself up and such.

I did the laziest transition ever: spent the last of my student loan on an appointment with Russel Reid, who back then was the go-to doctor for trans people going the private path instead of going through the NHS (I went private because for NHS treatment you had to see your GP, then see a local psychiatrist, and then get a referral to one of the gender clinics, then potentially not get prescribed hormones until after starting living in role, and I was suicidal and needed help right away. You don't have to jump through quite as many hoops for treatment on the NHS these days as you used to, but paying to go private still gets you your pills PDQ), got my prescription and just sat while the pills did their thing. I was lucky enough to have a GP who'd convert my prescription to an NHS one without making me jump through hoops, and she got me voice training on the NHS too, which was fantastic.

I was working in social services at the time, and when I got transferred from one town to the next one over and my new line manager saw me and said, "Uh, I think there's been some mistake: we were expecting a man," I took the hint and officially changed my name and all my documents and stuff. Social services was an amazing transition environment: no-one gave me any shit at all and it was really confidence-building to get to be myself at work without having to watch my back the whole time. Which is nice because the job itself was pretty stressful; we kept getting threatened over the phone and having people try and break down our front doors and stuff.

I got unlucky and the high estrogen levels triggered my latent hypermobility syndrome so I spent a few years getting progressively more disabled, then less disabled again as I did my physio. SRS was a big help with that because then I could go on a post-op hormone dose so my body wasn't flooded with estrogen any more. These days I don't quite have the stamina or strength I had pre-HRT -- I still have days when picking up the kettle is hard -- but it's a far cry from the worst times, when my occupational health doctor told me not to get pregnant or I'd lose the use of my legs (I didn't tell him why getting pregnant wasn't a concern though!).

So yeah, that's me. My 20s kinda sucked because they were dominated by joint pain but I'm mostly over that now, and we're moving back down south and it's time to start having fun...

I got pointed at gaming age recently and signed up since it seemed like a gaming forum not dominated entirely by idiots. I keep abandoning and re-starting my livejournal and twitter and stuff; the only place I've been active since I came on the internet is metafilter (this is me there). I live with my partner who I've been with for seven years. I've worked in the public sector (social services and education) my whole adult life and I can't imagine ever working for a real company! I keep meaning to finish my degree and get a career but I seem to have picked up enough experience herding students to stay employed for now. Lately I've been playing Portal 2, Crysis 2 and Dragon Age 2, watching Fringe, Adventure Time, Doctor Who and My Little Pony, and reading Dan Simmons. I've got some crappy webcam photos from the last ten years here.

And now I've talked waaay too much

 

[Stellares]

Thanks for sharing. I am soo jealous, you are really beautiful.
I hope you're feeling better.

 

[AceBandage]

Lately I've been playing Portal 2, Crysis 2 and Dragon Age 2, watching Fringe, Adventure Time, Doctor Who and My Little Pony, and reading Dan Simmons.

Damn you have good tastes.

 

[Nishastra]

I got pointed at gaming age recently and signed up since it seemed like a gaming forum not dominated entirely by idiots.

It's a decent enough place most of the time

Welcome aboard! I like the "biography" in your profile. It's very exciting.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

The changing room situation is an interesting one for me, my local gym is one of probably the biggest chain in the UK and the changing rooms are separate men's and women's ones but are open plan with no cubicles in at all.

 

[mollipen]

I'm just going to make this quick and will give your little write-up a proper read later, but alysonwheel - first, you're a total hottie, and second, I swear I've seen that "random internet headshot" pic before. Either that or I've seen pics of somebody else who is trans who looks a hell of a lot like you.

 

[Boogiepop]

Bleh, just found out the story from that other thread happened not terribly far from where I live (not in the neighborhood or anything, but not much of a drive at all). Nice to know that such terrible, hateful people live so close.

 

[AceBandage]

Bleh, just found out the story from that other thread happened not terribly far from where I live (not in the neighborhood or anything, but not much of a drive at all). Nice to know that such terrible, hateful people live so close.

Welcome to... everywhere?
There isn't a place on this planet (universe?) where bigotry doesn't exist.

 

[alysonwheel]

I'm just going to make this quick and will give your little write-up a proper read later, but alysonwheel - first, you're a total hottie, and second, I swear I've seen that "random internet headshot" pic before. Either that or I've seen pics of somebody else who is trans who looks a hell of a lot like you.

I've been knocking around the internet for ten years, and for a while I didn't have any new pictures of myself because when I lost my mobility I put on weight and hated how I looked, so I hid from cameras. So if you think you've seen a headshot before, you're probably right -- I know I overused the hell out of the orange-tinted one from my old house for a few years.

I also have a bad habit of just wandering off from websites and eventually forgetting passwords, so it's possible you've seen me on another site before...

And thanks!

 

[CrocMother]

So I'm taking a trans issues class at Uni and I have to say it is really terrible the way LGB have thrown you guys under the bus in the past.

I have a lot of respect for those that have to go against the grain just to be themselves.
Don't give up, you guys and gals are an inspiration not just to other trans but everybody!

 

[Gaborn]

So I'm taking a trans issues class at Uni and I have to say it is really terrible the way LGB have thrown you guys under the bus in the past.

I have a lot of respect for those that have to go against the grain just to be themselves.
Don't give up, you guys and gals are an inspiration not just to other trans but everybody!

I definitely agree with this. I think it's a huge problem in our community that gays often don't consider trans issues being as "important" as ours, or as worth fighting for. Ignorance and bigotry exist everywhere. Bisexuals often face a similar problem with the gay community, there is still a lot of misunderstanding and ignorance among people that should absolutely know better.

 

[Dead Man]

I definitely agree with this. I think it's a huge problem in our community that gays often don't consider trans issues being as "important" as ours, or as worth fighting for. Ignorance and bigotry exist everywhere. Bisexuals often face a similar problem with the gay community, there is still a lot of misunderstanding and ignorance among people that should absolutely know better.

Sadly true.

 

[Nishastra]

I definitely agree with this. I think it's a huge problem in our community that gays often don't consider trans issues being as "important" as ours, or as worth fighting for. Ignorance and bigotry exist everywhere. Bisexuals often face a similar problem with the gay community, there is still a lot of misunderstanding and ignorance among people that should absolutely know better.

Indeed. It's nice to think that a group that has lots of problems with being accepted for who they are would themselves accept other groups with the same kind of problems, but unfortunately that's really not how it tends to work.

 

[Boney]

I never had any trouble in the womens' loos, mainly because I was dumb and carried on using the mens' loos way too long. Quoting myself from another website:

Bwahahaha this story is hilarious!

cheers ;p

uu seeing as it's my first time posting, I gotta say thanks at you guys for making such an informative and entretaining thread

 

[Stellares]

Sadly, the GLBT community is really the GLB community.

 

[Platy]

I heard too much "bisexual = whore" from gays and lesbians to know that if you are going to take the T you must take the B out too =P

 

[Nishastra]

I like "GBLT" because it always makes me think "Gay Bacon Lettuce and Tomato"...

...

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I heard too much "bisexual = whore" from gays and lesbians to know that if you are going to take the T you must take the B out too =P

Yeah, I've seen quite a bit of scorn poured on Bisexuals by some Gay people. What's that all about?

 

[tiff]

That kind of crap is why I basically avoid current events GAF these days.

Sometimes I get too bored to stay away but I feel the same, really.

 

[Nishastra]

Yeah, I've seen quite a bit of scorn poured on Bisexuals by some Gay people. What's that all about?

The idea as I understand it is that being bisexual cheapens homosexuality. Like, you can't really be bisexual, you're just a straight person pretending to be gay who can go back to being straight if the need arises?

Then it becomes "bisexuals are just whores" as Platy said, based on the idea that bisexuals just want to have sex with anyone who comes along.

I remember there was one guy on here who proclaimed that there was no such thing as a bisexual because his boyfriend left him for a woman. You know, he was obviously just straight all along...

 

[Dead Man]

Yeah, I've seen quite a bit of scorn poured on Bisexuals by some Gay people. What's that all about?

Some gay people, for a whole bunch of reasons, none of which make much sense, think bisexual people don't actually exist, or are just sluts. Irritating, but hey, people are people. All oppressed groups have members that respond by trying to oppress another group to increase their self esteem.

 

[Gaborn]

Some gay people, for a whole bunch of reasons, none of which make much sense, think bisexual people don't actually exist, or are just sluts. Irritating, but hey, people are people. All oppressed groups have members that respond by trying to oppress another group to increase their self esteem.

honestly if I had to guess I think that their concern isn't even with bisexuals itself. It's driven I think by the fear of the perception that if there are bisexuals that in some way undercuts gay rights generally, that bigots sometimes use the "Well I knew a guy, right, and he was straight, had a really hot girlfriend, he went to prison and now he's dating a dude!" "argument" as some sort of evidence that gays can "change" and thus shouldn't be afforded rights. I think they see that dynamic as "messy" and difficult to explain. It's completely irrational and stupid though because people understanding about bisexuality actually eliminates that so-called argument even though some people seem to take it seriously (at least, I've seen it advanced seriously on GAF). Too many people, gay and straight alike live in a binary world.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Well that's fucked.

Doesn't help that my gay friends are the bitchy type, and don't know I'm Bi. I try giving them dirty looks when they go off on one, but they dont get the message >_>

 

[Dead Man]

honestly if I had to guess I think that their concern isn't even with bisexuals itself. It's driven I think by the fear of the perception that if there are bisexuals that in some way undercuts gay rights generally, that bigots sometimes use the "Well I knew a guy, right, and he was straight, had a really hot girlfriend, he went to prison and now he's dating a dude!" "argument" as some sort of evidence that gays can "change" and thus shouldn't be afforded rights. I think they see that dynamic as "messy" and difficult to explain. It's completely irrational and stupid though because people understanding about bisexuality actually eliminates that so-called argument even though some people seem to take it seriously (at least, I've seen it advanced seriously on GAF). Too many people, gay and straight alike live in a binary world.

Maybe so. I used to label myself bisexual, but the either/or bullshit got really old, and I just got sick of labels in general, so now I don't bother. So yeah, too many people do live in a binary world.

 

[water_wendi]

ive never understood why bisexuals get the garbage they do. i mean, i understand the arguments but i think its pretty stupid.

 

[Dead Man]

I like to jokingly put forth the "bisexuals don't exist" thing sometimes, but yeah, the fact that people actually and seriously possess such an attitude is pretty ridiculous and lolworthy to me.

YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!! Nah, but I do think it's just people being people, and compared to some of the shit I have seen trans people, or even just effeminate gay people, go through, it's not exactly catastrophic. Just more hypocrisy to point and laugh at.