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[alysonwheel]

One thing that I wasn't sure about, for example, was the extent of the "homosexual transsexual" and "autogynephilic transsexual" - do they exist alongside an entry for "normal" transsexuality, as it were, or do they represent the entirety of the DSM's entry on MTF transsexuality? If it's the latter then I the terminology should be inadequate on that basis alone.

As I understand it, the homosexual/autogynephilic model espoused by the people in question comprises their entire model of transsexuality. There is no space in their model for a trans woman like me or, I suspect, many, most, or all of the trans women on GAF; they don't appear to be able to account for a gender identity-based transition where sexual reasons were either secondary or not present. I've met what seems like several hundred billion trans people in my life, I can name maybe two who I'd describe as autogynephilic, and even in their case it's a) a stretch and b) a bit cruel, imo.

I had an entertaining email conversation once, a few years ago, with a doctor who strictly followed Blanchard's model of transsexuality. When I told him that my life experience doesn't match up to the theory he prefers, he told me I was lying to him and deluding myself. If you're not a "self-hating gay man" or a "transvestite taking it too far" then you're not in this model.

 

[Jintor]

Nah, in Sydney.

Yeah.. it freaking sucks. It ruined my day just hearing it, let alone what it was like for her. Especially considering how apparently central the hobby is to her life.

Empathy is hardly only the province of non-Muslims lol. My aunty's closest friend, and a woman who has been around my whole life is trans. Every harsh word, abuse and discrimination suffered by one is jihad(struggle) for them, and a shield from the fire. Every religious person that tells someone they are going to hell, is making it more likely that they won't. Anyway, it is my understanding is that there is nothing haraam (impermissible) about feeling that you are physically one sex, but that your gender is different. There should be more avenues for such people to change their sex to align with their gender if that is their wish.

Oh man, I didn't know you were in Sydney

 

[xelios]

It's really hard to make a blanket statement about a situation like that; it would be different for everyone. I know that if a girl I was dating wanted to transition, I imagine that I'd remain a close friend, but that I would certainly no longer be interested in anything sexual with that person. The attraction just wouldn't be there. You can ask yourself the same question if you're interested in one sex; I can't imagine being gay or straight having anything to do with it.

Same here. That's too big of a jump for me. Although if I was single and starting fresh I would have no issue going into a relationship with someone I knew was trans.

 

[iirate]

Same here. That's too big of a jump for me. Although if I was single and starting fresh I would have no issue going into a relationship with someone I knew was trans.

Yeah, I wouldn't be against dating another trans individual, but they'd have to be MtF, like me.

 

[Balya]

Transgaf I have a question that has been on my mind for awhile. Forgive me if this has already been asked. But I was wondering, lets say two men are in a committed relationship when one decides to go through with a sex change operation. I'm curious, generally in a case like that does the other person lose interest because as a gay man they're not attracted to the female form? Or is it more often the case that they can look past that? My apologies if this is a stupid or naive question.

Don't think I've posted in here before but I have spoken to a couple people in the thread about certain issues off board. Anyway, hi all.

Here's my take on this. My sexuality is less based on "form" or what's between someone's legs as it is on the person's actual personality. I'm bisexual (yes, a real one), male and femme to the point of being somewhat transgendered or at the very least "genderqueer" or whatever you want to call it. Not currently into the idea of transitioning, etc. Bear with me...

I'm pretty much only into people who are either feminine or kinda androgynous but always more the feminine, don't care as much about their biological sex as long as they don't have any kind of macho attitudes that lead to violence against me or the kinds of confrontations that only someone with that manly sort of competitiveness seems to initiate. Basically, no boys allowed, and my conception of "boy" has nothing to do with what sex organ you have, your haircut or clothes. A biological female with nice hair, makeup and clothes can still act like a dominant jerkoff and like to hit you when she's drunk, believe me.

So to actually answer the question now, if I was dating a man who already had the feminine disposition and suddenly wanted to become MORE feminine, I'd be stoked! But yeah, I'm probably the exception to the rule, I usually am.

 

[alysonwheel]

I'm pretty much only into people who are either feminine or kinda androgynous but always more the feminine, don't care as much about their biological sex as long as they don't have any kind of macho attitudes that lead to violence against me or the kinds of confrontations that only someone with that manly sort of competitiveness seems to initiate. Basically, no boys allowed, and my conception of "boy" has nothing to do with what sex organ you have, your haircut or clothes.

Woah. I think you're me!

 

[InfiniteNine]

Epilator....oww. ;___;

 

[tiff]

Here's my take on this. My sexuality is less based on "form" or what's between someone's legs as it is on the person's actual personality. I'm bisexual (yes, a real one), male and femme to the point of being somewhat transgendered or at the very least "genderqueer" or whatever you want to call it. Not currently into the idea of transitioning, etc. Bear with me...

I'm pretty much only into people who are either feminine or kinda androgynous but always more the feminine, don't care as much about their biological sex as long as they don't have any kind of macho attitudes that lead to violence against me or the kinds of confrontations that only someone with that manly sort of competitiveness seems to initiate. Basically, no boys allowed, and my conception of "boy" has nothing to do with what sex organ you have, your haircut or clothes.

I think this is kinda how I am. Though I definitely prefer feminine dress, looks, etc. too. But yeah, I'm attracted to femininity, not biological sex.

I'm actually rather fond of dicks, actually.

Epilator....oww. ;___;

Had no idea what that was. Yikes.

 

[Nishastra]

I'm actually rather fond of dicks, actually.

If you were still using your previous avatar, I'd quote it

Had no idea what that was. Yikes.

It's like miniature farm equipment.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Epilator....oww. ;___;

Yeah.. worst thing ever.

 

[Balya]

I'm actually rather fond of dicks, actually.

HA. I don't view mine as a burden, or anything. Except for when certain (usually straight) girls who don't know me very well yet pull that, "Go away, GIRL TALK" bullshit and I'm like "HEY WAIT JUST A MINUTE... ah, fuck it." But like 90% of my friends are female anyway and they don't hold anything back over my technically being a dude and stuff, it's all good. The thing that still sucks is that if I'm squabbling with even one of those friends they revert to girls vs boys mode, then quickly become frustrated when I argue back using, um, bitch tactics and not the usually lame guy type stuff. Like, "Oh shit, this isn't gonna work because he thinks like we do..." Hell hath no fury, etc.

 

[tiff]

If you were still using your previous avatar, I'd quote it

lol

 

[Balya]

I am quite a fan of Zoe, as I like names that are a little different but not OMGCRAZY.

I am also, even though you didn't ask, definitely on the side of "pick a name you identify with" and not the "pick a name that has similarity to your old name" line of thinking.

Guess I'll get in on this one. My full first name is actually a homophone of a female name (anyone curious is only a few clicks away from my Facebook from here lol) but to just have the same name and change the spelling... how boring would that be?

I'm a musician, and currently trying to get into acting as well through local musical theater. I plan on using the name Summer professionally, there's a story behind that probably not fit to air out on NeoGAF, but if I were to choose a female personal name for myself, I'm definitely a Catherine, no question. As Ren once said when told Stimpy had just won 47 million dollars, "I'M THE CAT!"

And Zoe is a cool name, dunno if I've ever met one IRL that I can remember.

 

[iirate]

So guys, I'm seriously considering coming out to, well, everyone. As it currently stands, I'm out to a handful of friends, and after last weekend, I'm starting to think that more people suspect than I realized, since my little sister, who I have seen TWICE in three years, asked me if I was trans after being in town for less than an hour. Then you have an entire group of my friends that have been teasing me and calling me a woman since far before I even humored the idea of being trans.

Most importantly though, I'm tired of the act, being so deceptive, having so much to hide, and most importantly, the feelings of loneliness that have come from this. The problem is, I'm not sure how to do so, or if I should. I have, for the longest time, held off on telling people because I hadn't yet begun transitioning. First, I now know better, as everything that I have learned from this experience has certainly led to changes in how I project myself. Secondly, I'm no longer sure how important it is that I am so early into this.

I have also been afraid of people not accepting me, but I'm starting to realize how little I have to fear from most of the people I know, and how little I actually care if some people that I thought were my friends can't accept me. I've been seeing a therapist on campus for over a month now, and she has helped a great deal as far as boosting my self-esteem, and preparing me to take some larger steps.

That isn't to say that I'm completely confident or anything (far from it). I still worry about giving people too much information that don't desire it. I guess I worry that if it DOESN'T matter to my friends/family, then why am I telling them in the first place. The obvious answer is that it matters to me, but I'm not sure if that is enough for me to leave a PSA on Facebook that basically says "I'm trans, dealwithit.jpg (although, obviously, with a LITTLE more tact than that would imply)".

I guess that I'm basically wondering what everyone else's experiences have been with coming out to the public. When is it appropriate? How should I do it? Should I at all (I think I know the answer to this one, at least)? I want to bring this up at the very least to my therapist next Wednesday as well before doing anything, but I figured that this would be a good place to find some advice, as well.

 

[alysonwheel]

I guess that I'm basically wondering what everyone else's experiences have been with coming out to the public. When is it appropriate? How should I do it? Should I at all (I think I know the answer to this one, at least)? I want to bring this up at the very least to my therapist next Wednesday as well before doing anything, but I figured that this would be a good place to find some advice, as well.

When I first started really sorting out who I was, before I took hormones or even really feminised my appearance except for growing my hair out, I came out to my best lady friend, my best male friend, and people I'd moved in with at university and was becoming really close to. My best male friend was utterly perplexed, told me that I "need to get a fetish and get over it" (he was going through a rubber thing at the time) and we started drifting apart almost instantly; he's on my Facebook but I don't think we've exchanged any actual words, spoken or typed, in about ten years -- I think he fucked off to become an investment banker or some other shite.

Everyone else was fantastic. Without the support of my friends at uni particularly I don't know how I would have coped, as I was pretty depressed. They helped me see that it wasn't just a pipe dream, that I wouldn't end up stupid looking, that I really could do it. I managed to push them away later on with my own stupid self-absorbed flailing, but they're all back in my life now and I'll forever be grateful for their support.

Without going into detail, I really think I would have benefited from having them around in the period shortly after I started transition. I was friends with mostly only other trans women at that point, and I was in a bit of an echo chamber. For all that my non-trans friends can occasionally be a bit clueless I'm glad to have them back because they really balance my perspective (plus they're, like, really great and stuff).

So yeah, I think coming out to your closer friends before starting transition could be really helpful to you, assuming they're the kind of people who are going to stick by you.

 

[iirate]

I have come out to several, although I lost a two of these people to an unrelated fallout. Other than them, two friends who I'm unfortunately not in regular touch with know, my roommate knows, and really good friend of over 10 years knows. I'm thinking of at least telling those friends in same social circle as my roommate and the longtime friend (most of which I've known for 6-10 years, as well).

I guess what is really getting to me, though, is a building anxiety from hiding and lying about it. Even something as simple as having to list a gender on G+ upsets me right now, as does anyone's assumption that I'm a guy. I just want to be able to stop pretending, but I'm really not sure what the best way to tell people is.

 

[Balya]

I picked "Other" on G+!
But then, I'm not really interested in making myself "present as a woman," at least not right now. I've stopped hiding certain things about my personality to the point where new people I meet pretty much figure out what the deal is right away, though. The last couple female friends I've made, I barely had to say anything about it, they're just like "Yeah, you're such a chick."

I really do resent getting treated like a guy too, even my current gf seems to forget sometimes, and she acts way more like a dude than I do. She'll be sitting at the computer typing away all evening, I'll be lying in bed like, "Pay attention to meeeeee..." and she's all, "I'm in the middle of something, later." It's like total sitcom relationship problems in reverse. Later in bed though, she'll be the one acting like I'm gonna start pawing at her even if she's not in the mood... it's like dude, if anything you're gonna be the one to paw at ME lol. I've made women so impatient in the past thinking they were supposed to wait for me to make a move that they seriously jumped my bones, heh.

Something else funny happened recently, my 11 year old cousin called me on the phone the other night, hadn't talked to her in a while, since way before I stopped hiding stuff... she goes, "Your voice sounds weird, you sound like a girl." Now, I have in NO WAY deliberately attempted to change anything about my voice, I'm not talking higher or anything like that on purpose, but maybe it's the tone of voice and inflections that I use now that I'm no longer trying to "sound like" a guy all the time? I dunno.

 

[tiff]

Kind of a weird bump I guess, but all the talk about coming out has gotten me thinking lately that I really need to stop bottling it all in and start living as who I want to be sooner rather than later, but I'm still too scared to come out to anyone I know in real life

 

[Nishastra]

I never really "came out" as such. It kind of just happened naturally. I guess the best way to put it is that I've been a strange person for a very long time...

That said, I was lucky. My parents are very understanding. Their best friends when I was growing up were a gay couple, one of whom was my godfather. My father was an atheist from the word go and my mother abandoned Catholicism, specifically over their stance on gay rights, in the early 90s. The only group I was part of in high school was what I'd call the misfits. All the punks, metalheads, homosexuals, and computer programmers. No one in that little group was going to be judgmental.

In 1995, someone I knew came out as transgendered. Changed their name and disappeared. A few years later, I ran into her and had a chance to talk to her quite a bit. I learned a lot.

It was something that had never even crossed my mind before. I'm bisexual, I've always been kind of effeminate, and I look pretty androgynous. More than a few times people couldn't tell whether I was male or female until I opened my mouth when I was a teenager. I never really thought about it, though. It was just how I was.

I guess I'm a pretty easygoing person. I'm happy with who I am. I don't think I'm living a lie, but even if I am, I'm a good liar

 

[Balya]

More than a few times people couldn't tell whether I was male or female until I opened my mouth when I was a teenager. I never really thought about it, though.

That's definitely something I think about a lot more in retrospect. I can distinctly remember some kid yelling "HEY GIRL" at me in 7th grade gym class (I decked him lol, one of the few times in my life I can remember striking someone, dunno why it made me so mad but it was clearly A BAD THING to me that I looked like a girl then), getting called "she" by a hospital worker when I was 14, with my mom standing right there going, "Well... HE," etc.

It always confused and upset me as a kid but a couple months ago there was a woman and her kid standing outside my garage when I used the automatic opener on the door, the kid asked how I did that and the mom was like, "I guess she pressed a button in her pocket." I don't even wear women's clothes and I had just cut my hair shorter... guess I must've at least shaved that day. SO PROUD when it happens now LOL.

 

[yeoz]

On the surface, it looks as if our identity as male or female is determined in the womb. The decision seems final – a genetic switch flicks towards either setting, and locks into place for the rest of our lives.

This tidy image is wrong. Two recent studies in mice have shown that the switch isn’t locked – it’s held under constant tension by two rival genes – DMRT1 and FOXL2. It’s a tug-of-war fought over sexual fate, which goes on throughout our lives. Take away either contestant, and its adversary pulls the switch to the opposite setting. Ovaries can transform into testes and vice versa, even in adults.

[...]

But two years ago, Henriette Uhlenhaut from the European Molecular Biology Laboratory showed that this pivotal moment is not a permanent one. She found that a gene called FOXL2 keeps maleness at bay, long after the gonadal ridge has transformed into ovaries. By deleting it, Uhlenhaut turned the ovaries of female mice into testes. They didn’t produce any sperm, but they cells looked like testicular cells, they had the same portfolio of active genes, and they produced testosterone.

Now, Clinton Matson from the University of Minnesota has found that a gene called DMRT1 acts as FOXL2’s mirror counterpart, suppressing femaleness in male mice.

In fact, DMRT1 and FOXL2 repress each other. Neither can rise to power while the other is strong – this is why sex appears to be so stable. Matson dispelled this illusion by removing DMRT1 in both embryonic and adult mice.

When he bred mice that lacked DMRT1, males would grow up as females. Their gonadal ridges begin to transform into testes, but they are eventually waylaid by the feminising FOXL2. Even when Matson deleted DMRT1 in adult mice, FOXL2 was released and started switching on ovarian genes. Within a month, the testicular cells had been reprogrammed into ovarian ones. These cells produced oestrogen, and flooded the rodents’ bloodstreams with this hormone; meanwhile, their testosterone levels fell.

[...]

Link: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/20/one-gene-keeps-mickey-from-turning-into-minnie/
Probably years or decades away from workable gene therapy in humans, but, wow, Science.

 

[leadbelly]

Can you be transgendered and be homosexual?

Like a man who is trapped in a woman's body and just happens to be gay?

 

[yeoz]

Can you be transgendered and be homosexual?

Like a man who is trapped in a woman's body and just happens to be gay?

Your gender and your sexual orientation are not necessarily linked.

 

[leadbelly]

Your gender and your sexual orientation are not necessarily linked.

Yeah. I was thinking that would be quite a confusing position to be in. If your sex was female, and your gender identity male, having a homosexual sexual orientation for males would really mix things up even more.

On one hand they would want to be male, but being female in sex, benefits them in terms of sexual orientation.

 

[tiff]

I think being transgender is kind of a confusing position to be in in general

 

[leadbelly]

I think being transgender is kind of a confusing position to be in in general

Yeah. I'm just exploring the realms of what's possible.

 

[Platy]

On one hand they would want to be male, but being female in sex, benefits them in terms of sexual orientation.

Actualy for most, being penetrated in sex in their original organs is the worst curse they can have ...
...and for the rest, they can totaly do everything else and just not get the surgery downstairs (see buck angel...if you are not at work) =P

Being a girl just to get "more man" or something like that is lying insanely to yourself, wich is something that all trans goes in a quest bigger and more crap than 300 times of the crapiness and size of the triforce fetch quests from WindWaker (and i'm being generous here =P) only so they don't need to lie to thenselfs.

Besides the fact that stuffs like boobs and menstruation are curses to a female to male trans =P

------------------------------------------------------
edit :

....did you people realise the implications for gender theory, queer theory, feminist theory and every theory related to gender the fact that sex determination is not final ?

And i'm not talking about extremist feminists doing terrorist atacks to get thousands of people to produce estrogen =P

 

[Balya]

And i'm not talking about extremist feminists doing terrorist atacks to get thousands of people to produce estrogen =P

Don't get my hopes up... if it never happened IRL that'd be a movie I'd pay to see!

And on topic, as someone who feels feminine in spirit but tends to have girlfriends, I kind of prefer oral sex and using my hands and stuff to please my partner over using my dick, but like I said before I don't view it as a burden or anything. I can use it if they want it, feels good, just not my favorite thing to be in there pounding away lol. But whatever makes her happy, that's what's most important to me.

 

[dream]

So I hate outing myself as a lifelong fan of Degrassi in all its incarnations but goddammit, I love my teen melodrama. In addition to having hot women, the series has always been more liberal and more willing to tackle sensitive topics than its American counterparts too. They introduced a transgendered character a few seasons ago, for example, and he's gone through some pretty cool storylines about his family's reaction, the way he's treated at school, etc.

I'm mentioning this because the past few episodes have featured a storyline about this character using a men's washroom, getting called a tranny, and - in a cool twist - the guy who called him a tranny is the one ostracized for it. And I thought some of you might enjoy seeing a transgendered character that is represented as more than just a caricature or the butt of a joke.

http://www.teennick.com/videos/degrassi-videos

(or http://www.muchmusic.com/tv/degrassi/ if you're Canadian)

 

[Koyuga]

So I hate outing myself as a lifelong fan of Degrassi in all its incarnations but goddammit, I love my teen melodrama. In addition to having hot women, the series has always been more liberal and more willing to tackle sensitive topics than its American counterparts too. They introduced a transgendered character a few seasons ago, for example, and he's gone through some pretty cool storylines about his family's reaction, the way he's treated at school, etc.

I'm mentioning this because the past few episodes have featured a storyline about this character using a men's washroom, getting called a tranny, and - in a cool twist - the guy who called him a tranny is the one ostracized for it. And I thought some of you might enjoy seeing a transgendered character that is represented as more than just a caricature or the butt of a joke.

http://www.teennick.com/videos/degrassi-videos

(or http://www.muchmusic.com/tv/degrassi/ if you're Canadian)

Thats pretty cool, I could never get into that series though.


I guess I should introduce myself... I've been lurking neogaf for years but only recently got activated, and I haven't posted a lot yet so you won't recognise me.

I'm a mtf transwoman, I started transitioning about half a year ago, and came out to everyone and started going fulltime very recently. So I'm still very early in everything, but I'm pretty satisfied with the progress I've made and I'm much happier now than I ever used to be with myself. So anyway I don't want to talk about myself too much, just wanted to pop in and say hi, voice my support. etc. You're all wonderful. <3

 

[kehs]

So I follow this thread off an on, and not too long I came across Body Dismorphic disorder, throughout alot of my research on the subject trans issues are briefly mentioned, but never really expounded on. I read a book titled "The Broken Mirror" that gave alot on insight on the disorder and at the same time I couldn't help but have people that are going through transformations and transitions cross my mind.

I'm not saying BDD is some kind of explanation or anything, far from it, I'm interested in the seemingly similar parallels of transitioning and feelings that alot of people being affected by BDD are afflicted with.

If I could ask a favor for some gaffer to look into BDD and comment on it, (even if it's only by pm) I'd much appreciate it.

 

[water_wendi]

i dont come around here much for a couple reasons (im a little crazy and would rather not have people thinking thats the norm for transgendered people.. also because ive been so broke ive been sublimating my desires) but i have to say gender dysphoria is exceptionally shitty, in all aspects of life. Its no surprise that suicide rates are so high pre-op.

 

[alysonwheel]

It really can be shitty, and I sympathise. I came so close to the end myself. It does get better, though. Like, a million times better.

And then Stephen Fry calls you humourless. Personal milestone for me.

 

[Dead Man]

Just bumping with some (sort of) good news in Australia:

High Court officially recognises two women who had sex change operations to be men

and

Man ordered to pay transsexual neighbour $15,000 compensation for transphobia

 

[Brian Griffin]

+1 Justice

Thanks for posting those.

 

[Songbird]

And then Stephen Fry calls you humourless. Personal milestone for me.

If it's alright, could I ask for the story on this? I've seen accusations like this before and it's surprising that such a progressive person would be off-track on issues like these.

 

[alysonwheel]

I'm just going to cut and paste the text of the complaints I sent to the BBC rather than go over it all, if that's okay.

In 2010, QI ran an episode with a long and lolarious ladyboys section. I didn't see it at the time but on the repeat earlier this year I caught it, was all WTF DUDE and ranted at the BBC thusly:

My name and email address auto-fill in the BBC complaints page now. It's quite the time saver.

---------------------------------------

Is there really any point to this? I mean, clearly the BBC does not care one bit about being offensive when it comes to transgender people. I'm not going to do any of that false equivalence stuff where I talk about the BBC's (hardly perfect) attitude towards other minorities because really.

You know better.

But you don't care.

The extended tittering sequence in QI about "ladyboys" was just revolting. Really? How can I tell if "it's" a boy or a girl? And the final line from Stephen Fry -- "Without undressing them or testing their DNA you can't be certain what sex someone is, so be careful out there!" -- was just disgusting.

Let me put that out on its own.

"Without undressing them or testing their DNA you can't be certain what sex someone is, so be careful out there!"

LOL! Hilarity!

I'm not going to quote death statistics at you. I'm not going to talk about murdered people I've known. I'm not going to talk about the everyday worries of being trans. Because you don't care. You can edit repeats, but you didn't.

We're funny! But we could be hiding anywhere. Watch out!

It came very shortly after some grotesque (in both senses of the word) loltrannies sketch on one of the BBC's sketch shows; hence the "is there any point to this?" tone. At the time I tweeted at Fry but didn't receive a response. I think he was in the US at the time. I let it go.

Fast forward to watching "Would I Lie to You" at the beginning of this month:

I'm not going to waste time writing this out properly since I fully expect to receive a reply containing the phrase, "there's no single set of standards in this area on which the whole of society can agree and it's inevitable that comments which are acceptable to some will occasionally strike others as distasteful," or something similar, to which the only response can be, isn't that part of what being a minority is all about? That people can't agree on whether to treat you with a little respect and decency? And against which I would suggest that the BBC is being cowardly and ignoring its responsibility as an opinion-shaper and broadcaster of some of the UK's most popular entertainment, instead holding a delightful mirror up to playground taunts and broadcasting them without comment or criticism and with a smile. I'm instead going to provide the notes I made as I watched it on iPlayer. Have fun, whoever compiles the audience log!

So Nigel Havers is claiming, "I once went on a date with a flamenco dancer who turned out to be a man." Suspense!

"Ooh, Lee, this is ringing bells for you, isn't it?" How awful yet humorous! Someone ELSE may have gone on a date with a transsexual person. How demeaning!

Following: lots of "apply stereotypical male speech and behaviour to women = trans woman" ugliness. The phrase "no bollock grabbing" is used. Urinal joke.

Naturally, while dancing, her penis brushed up against the man in question. Described by the host as "a harrowing tale for a young lad."

Brooker: "I don't buy that you would be able to ask somebody out and not twig that they were a man."

"What do you think, Nina? You're a woman, after all!" "Hopefully!"

It's TRUE! So this woman Nigel Havers danced with at 16 hopefully will never have to see a panel show full of people who never met her calling her a man, and an entire audience laughing along. Because she's a man! It's so funny! It's not like it's her life or anything! It's not like being recognised as transsexual can be extremely dangerous and even fatal or anything! IT'S JUST A HARMLESS JOKE! BECAUSE SHE'S A MAN!

Cheers, BBC. I'll make sure to know my place and not, you know, accidentally dance with a straight guy or anything. God forbid.

And then in the comments of the entry where I posted that originally (not originally originally, but after I'd sent it to the BBC) someone warned me off that week's QI. Glutton for punishment that I am, off I went.

It was actually reasonably mild, as far as dick jokes about trans women go, but I was already in a mood and tweeted @ Fry to that effect, hoping I might be able to nudge him into thinking, hey, remember how I don't like to see bipolar jokes and Jew jokes? Maybe it's the same kind of thing with tranny jokes!

Nope. Apparently we should learn to laugh at ourselves! To which the obvious response is, yeah, we do laugh at ourselves, quite a lot. But this was Fry using his national platform to laugh at us, which seems a little out of balance to me. But hey, he did his free speech is my BFF thing, me and other people did our, hey, dude, seriously, wtf thing, and some other unhelpful people joined in calling, variously, Fry and/or me a fucker depending on where in the debate their sensibilities lay. It wound down. Someone called me a coward for not starting a letter campaign; I'm far happier leaving it in the hands of people like Trans Media Watch, who unlike me are not massive dicks.

Since then Trans Media Watch has been occasionally tweeting him asking him to maybe say something nice about trans people, or at least stop with the loltrannies gags, since he is big and we are small. No response so far, afaik.

edit: my opinion on Fry is that he obviously doesn't hate trans people, but he's kind of thoughtless, doesn't seem to think that the opinions of incredibly popular and famous people have any kind of effect on wider society, and seems to think it's fine for him to tell jokes about trans people because he's gay and jewish. Ah well.

 

[Songbird]

I'm just going to cut and paste the text of the complaints I sent to the BBC rather than go over it all, if that's okay.

In 2010, QI ran an episode with a long and lolarious ladyboys section. I didn't see it at the time but on the repeat earlier this year I caught it, was all WTF DUDE and ranted at the BBC thusly:

That's all I need, thank you very much! I'm being disappointed by panel shows more and more lately, didn't even know about the "sketches" either.

Ed: I'll take an early night and think up a good response tomorrow, because the material you bring up is just out of order. I hoped people knew better.

Brooker: "I don't buy that you would be able to ask somebody out and not twig that they were a man."

I hope this isn't who I think it is.

 

[alysonwheel]

It is, but I will give him a pass because it felt like he was lead into it: the framing of "really a man" wasn't his, so he was just responding. I'll give him another chance to fuck up before I go maximum grar at him.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Ok transgaf....

This is a stupid question but I'd like to really see how people feel about it.

Doesn't it really bother any of you that capcom refuses to say either way if poison is transgender or not, leaving up to the individual to make their own mind up about it?

Why?

 

[Amalthea]

@Stephen Fry
You should think that homosexuals have a bit more sensbility towarts Transsexualism, not because we get tossed in the same pot too often but because the same kind of aggressions they suffered in the past.

But nope, as soon as they are accepted in the society they get "dickish" like everybody else towards minorities.

Things like this make me really hate humans.

It's a beautiful world!

 

[Instigator]

Ok transgaf....

This is a stupid question but I'd like to really see how people feel about it.

Doesn't it really bother any of you that capcom refuses to say either way if poison is transgender or not, leaving up to the individual to make their own mind up about it?

Why?

Maybe Poison thinks it's personal and doesn't want to discuss it?

In any case, enjoy lusting over a fictional character who might have been born a man!

 

[alysonwheel]

@Stephen Fry
You should think that homosexuals have a bit more sensbility towarts Transsexualism, not because we get tossed in the same pot too often but because the same kind of aggressions they suffered in the past.

Yeah, aside from the really quite gross (if you look past the comedy quiz show angle) bit on "Would I Lie to You?" most of the loltrannies stuff I've seen on the BBC lately hasn't been much worse than "backs against the wall" playground gay-taunting, but like you say, it's disappointing in the extreme that some people who were hurt by the latter don't seem to see anything wrong with the former. I'd hoped that it was just thoughtlessness, and a bit of context would change that, but in Fry's case that doesn't seem likely.

Doesn't it really bother any of you that capcom refuses to say either way if poison is transgender or not, leaving up to the individual to make their own mind up about it?

I actually quite like the quote on that Kotaku article about her: that if people see her as a woman they'll read feminine traits into her actions; if they see her as a man they'll read masculine traits. An unintentionally good example on how to deconstruct gender.

Also, lols at "where does she put her junk?" questions. Tucking can do anything.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

thanks guys, i just wanted to see if the fact that there isn't a clear stance by capcom was an issue.

As I suspected, people have better things to do with their time.

 

[alysonwheel]

Yeah, there are shitty portrayals of transgender characters enough to bother getting het up about Poison, who is anything from mildly negative (at worst, and not my opinion) to actually pretty damn awesome.

Bluntly, if a non-trans person is going to tell a story or make a game or whatever and they put a trans person in it, even if I have quibbles if the character isn't an out-and-out shitty stereotype I'm probably all for it. Visibility and all. The Will and Grace effect.

 

[mollipen]

thanks guys, i just wanted to see if the fact that there isn't a clear stance by capcom was an issue.

As I suspected, people have better things to do with their time.

I love that you get one reply and you're like, "Welp, there's the answer I wanted!"

Yeah, there are shitty portrayals of transgender characters enough to bother getting het up about Poison, who is anything from mildly negative (at worst, and not my opinion) to actually pretty damn awesome.

Bluntly, if a non-trans person is going to tell a story or make a game or whatever and they put a trans person in it, even if I have quibbles if the character isn't an out-and-out shitty stereotype I'm probably all for it. Visibility and all. The Will and Grace effect.

Let me re-phrase the question properly, since ThoughtsOfSpeaking didn't: for those in this thread who are trans, does it matter to you if there are transgender game characters out there or not? And—tied with that—being that Poison is one of the only major transgender characters in gaming, does it bother you that Capcom has gone from saying "Poison is trangender" to "we don't want to make a decision"?

His question comes from the thread about my interview with Ono concerning Poison, where his assertion was that people who are transgender don't care about the conflict over Poison, nor if there is any trans representation in video gaming.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I love that you get one reply and you're like, "Welp, there's the answer I wanted!"




Let me re-phrase the question properly, since ThoughtsOfSpeaking didn't: for those in this thread who are trans, does it matter to you if there are transgender game characters out there or not? And—tied with that—being that Poison is one of the only major transgender characters in gaming, does it bother you that Capcom has gone from saying "Poison is trangender" to "we don't want to make a decision"?

His question comes from the thread about my interview with Ono concerning Poison, where his assertion was that people who are transgender don't care about the conflict over Poison, nor if there is any trans representation in video gaming.

But yet, your 1 twitter reply is sufficent evidence to back your points......

And actually no. I phrased the question exactly how I wanted and the proper question to ask, thank you very much.

I have never once said that it doesn't make a difference if there are trans characters out there. I only assert that within the context of a fighting game, this level of debate is pointless.

But hell nah. Im done with all this projecting. It's not my problem or business and its clear im talking to brick walls. Im not gonna concern myself further with this subject, for real this time.

Again with the "I just wanted to offer my sweeping cursory view of a subject and then withdraw on the basis that I don't want to actually engage with the subject"

actually, if you read the other thread, Ill think you will find that I have more than engaged with this subject, more than any other naysayer on the forum. I just feel that shidoshi is being deliberately obtuse and I cant be arsed to keep going around in circles.

Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[Jintor]

Again with the "I just wanted to offer my sweeping cursory view of a subject and then withdraw on the basis that I don't want to actually engage with the subject"

 

[kehs]

Wanted to see if anyone wanted to indulge me about body dismorphic disorder I mentioned a few weeks back. I promise I'm extremely confidential... Even if I dont seem it.

 

[alysonwheel]

for those in this thread who are trans, does it matter to you if there are transgender game characters out there or not? And—tied with that—being that Poison is one of the only major transgender characters in gaming, does it bother you that Capcom has gone from saying "Poison is trangender" to "we don't want to make a decision"?

His question comes from the thread about my interview with Ono concerning Poison, where his assertion was that people who are transgender don't care about the conflict over Poison, nor if there is any trans representation in video gaming.

Since no-one else is biting, and since I just skimmed that thread while waiting for my work database to stop failing, I'll re-bite.

I like Poison. Great character design, distinctive outfits, and yeah, I'm quite pleased there's a trans character in a video game. She brings with her a lot of cis baggage, of course -- discussions around her are rife with questsions of whether she's a "real woman" or transgender, and that's from sympathetic/supportive people -- but screw it; there's a difference between intentional offensiveness and well-meaning but naive cluelessness, and furthermore finding the reaction to her a little offensive in some ways doesn't mean a) that I or any other trans person is going to wilt and do nothing else other than BE OFFENDED and b) that the character isn't cool.

I know some trans people don't like it when cis people write us, since they inevitably fuck up somehow (I'm hard-pressed to think of a single trans character in anything cis-written that I wouldn't have done differently myself) but perfect is the enemy of good, and all that. So I'm all for trans characters in games and I'd love to see more -- as long as the writers do a little basic homework first (and going to GLAAD is a decent step that I'd love to see made more often, even though I don't know if they'd be my first choice or anything) so they don't make silly mistakes (along the lines of: all trans women are sex-crazed man-deceiving succubi who can't wait to get their dude-junk out, which crops up surprisingly often).

It bothers me a little that Capcom appear to have gone back on their "she's totally transgender" stance from a couple of years back, but it's kind of futile anyway since there's no shoving the cat back in the bag at this point; everyone knows.

In summary: Poison's great. And more transgender characters, please! edit: oh, and it's a shame Capcom backed down but it'd be more of a shame if they'd definitely said NO SHE'S NOT OMG TRANNIES HAVE COOTIES so I'll mark it up as neither a win nor a loss.