Support NeoGAF

[Izuna]

Wow, making subtle threats now?

Fighting is a totally different ballgame from most athletics. It is *far* more skill dependent with other factors being equal, than say Basketball or Football. I can't fathom how this is hard to process.

... I am not making threats. I'm not a mod. I'm just informing you. Your argument isn't new.

And your reasoning about fighting being different from other sports... No, you don't get to do that. No one has full scientific knowledge on what makes a fighter stronger than the other, and you certainly don't. You don't get to claim that the advantages a man has over a women doesn't apply to MMA.

--

This is very Off-topic actually, I'd rather not have this particular discussion in a thread about whether not a trans woman should race in a ladies running competition. (they should, is my answer)

 

[Jenov]

The Sweden women's national football team where beaten by teen boys

Damn, that's harsh!

It's an interesting problem to be sure. Probably proof of early transitioning and hormone checks would be the only thing even coming close to creating fairness. But that's a lot of extra red tape and expense to go through, especially just for high school level sports and scholarships. So it doesn't seem like a feasible solution.

Like what was said earlier though, not all transgender people go through hormones, and in the US many don't start them until their 18+? That is a problem for high school sport scholarships -- though a rare one.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Yes, but with the physiological advantages of a man and therefore unfair to the other woman that are competing.

Life isn't fair.

 

[QuantumZebra]

And I would bet a million dollars that a top 10 HS boys basketball team would destroy the Uconn girls college team.

That's a brave bet!

It is blatantly obvious in sports where size is a huge factor (bball, football, etc..) that males will have the advantage.

Heavily skill based sports (archery, golf, and as I said before, even fighting ) are a far different story.

 

[dalin80]

lets imagine for a minute that this young woman makes it to the olympics someday (i realize this is beyond unlikely, but lets roll with it).

So she utterly crushes every female record that she competes in.

now what?

You wait until all her records are beaten by someone who didn't undergo HRT until later in life and so on.

 

[Huff]

It's just some state event who cares. Totally Unsurprising many of don't understand what a state title or placing means

Lot of people's futures ride on these events

 

[see5harp]

And you can say with a straight face that Holly Holm wouldn't beat a male fighter of her size if he wasn't as skilled as her?

There are plenty of male/male fights where the guy who is far bigger, longer, stronger, still loses (look at some of Brock Lesnar's fights).

What kind of dumb hypothetical situation are you thinking of where Holly Holm is fighting some guy off the street? We're talking about sports where a 150 pound dude who cut 15 pounds just to make weight will be coming into a fight at 165 pounds, ripped as all hell. Holly Holm couldn't take more than a few stiff jabs.

 

[robotzombie]

Holy Baikal Logic.

You should have ended this with Batman

 

[Saucy_XL]

A. I already said that if they were equivalent skill-wise, I would bet on the male fighter.

B. There is definitely a way. Any fight can go any way. Now the odds may be stacked, but there is definitely a way.



Wow, making subtle threats now?

Fighting is a totally different ballgame from most athletics. It is *far* more skill dependent with other factors being equal, than say Basketball or Football. I can't fathom how this is hard to process.

Because the "factors" aren't equal between an equally skilled and weight male and female fighter.

 

[norm9]

Life isn't fair.

Of course not, but in the case of sports, there is an entry point that makes that it fair. After that, talent and genetics take over.

 

[Justified]

Life isn't fair.

Thats true, but sports have a baseline, that starts with gender assignment.

Skills and talent are the difference maker. Should the baseline be eliminated?

 

[Platy]

I love how everyone is an trans expert in threads like these.

The fucking OLYMPICS say trans people does not have any advantage if they are on hormones for a year ... and even if you go "but if they transition after puberty the bones keep unchanged.... well than you should probably stop girls that came from broad bones genes too AND don't blink to trans girls who transitioned before puberty

Yeah, that article is basically transphobic people are transphobic, news at 11

How about, we just drop all physical competitions, and compete only with activities where strength or size isn't a factor, and remote controlled drones?

It would also solve most doping issues.

There is dropping for eSports...

 

[QuantumZebra]

Because the "factors" aren't equal between an equally skilled and weight male and female fighter.

That... is literally what I just said?

With all other factors being equal (weight, height, length) - skill will win 90% of the time in a fight.

What kind of dumb hypothetical situation are you thinking of where Holly Holm is fighting some guy off the street? We're talking about sports where a 150 pound dude who cut 15 pounds just to make weight will be coming into a fight at 165 pounds, ripped as all hell. Holly Holm couldn't take more than a few stiff jabs.

You call what I said a dumb hypothetical and follow it with another hypothetical? Amazing.

I am saying that an equal-sized male fighter to Holm who is not as talented/skilled can and will definitely lose quite a few fights between them, in a hypothetical scenario. I don't know how this is world-shattering.

Put the pipe down. They would both get slid by a male MMA fighter.

Yep I must be high for saying that a less skilled male fighter would lose to a more highly skilled female fighter of the same size. Complete insanity.

 

[Dosia]

You clearly don't fight.

If that "trained MMA male fighter" was a ground guy and he couldn't get ahold of her, then she would fucking destroy him with the same kick she took out Rousey with.

If that fighter was in the same tier and had striking ability, then yes I would definitely bet on him.

It all depends on skillset.



I'm not. I'm comparing skill levels. Holly Holm or Rousey would fucking obliterate a male MMA fighter that wasn't on their level, skill-wise. That is the only point I am making.

Put the pipe down. They would both get slid by a male MMA fighter.

 

[Jenov]

Life isn't fair.

Generations of women already know this.

 

[James93]

seems that way, men are better overall

This is basically all that needs to be said. Males have a competitive advantage in speed and strength

 

[PdotMichael]

There is a reason why material arts are so strict about their weight classes.

That weight and size don't matter is not a reason.

 

[patapuf]

Yup, but average joes who occasionally play hockey wouldn't be able to beat professional female players. It's the same thing with the fighting debate going on in this thread.

Sure, but OP was about competition.

And i think when it comes to sports competition it's safe to assume we are not just talking about "average joes?"

 

[gofreak]

Given that some girls will be naturally better than some boys at these things, why even use gender at all as the basis for segregations and handicaps, in some sports? Just group people by performance or even their more general genetic profile/strengths. While I know gender may provide a good rule of thumb in many cases, we probably have the tech now to be more subtle and accurate in how we group by ability, no? It would probably also have the side effect of helping more people participate in competitive sports if we have finer grained filtering of people into more and fairer competitive streams.

 

[BronsonLee]

There was a famous poster who was permabanned for this line of reasoning.

Lol oh god I remember that thread
That was what death felt like

 

[Lowmelody]

Thats true, but sports have a baseline, that starts with gender assignment.

Skills and talent are the difference maker. Should the baseline be eliminated?

That baseline was met when the teenage girl was "assigned" to the girl's competition that she came 3rd place in.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

This issue. The best of the best athletes compete against eachother. No more putting all women in the second-class of sporting because of their gender.

Yeah. Just freeze women out of sports entirely. Much better.

And to everyone saying that it doesn't matter because she didn't come in first place:

The fact that one particular biological male athlete didn't beat one particular biological female athlete doesn't refute the inherent, innate advantage that biological males have over biological females. That's like saying that because some black people successfully get jobs, systemic hiring discrimination isn't real.

 

[Saucy_XL]

That... is literally what I just said?

With all other factors being equal (weight, height, length) - skill will win 90% of the time in a fight.

No I'm saying there are fundamental differences in a man vs woman's fighting ability beyond the surface factors of weight and skill level (and even height and length which MMA doesn't group by)

 

[Toxi]

Given that some girls will be naturally better than some boys at these things, why even use gender at all as the basis for segregations and handicaps, in some sports?

Because when you look at the best of the best in competition, men will outperform women consistently. And these competitions are for the best of the best. By having separate woman sports, you can actually have the most athletic women be recognized.

 

[norm9]

I love how everyone is an trans expert in threads like these.

Not a trans expert. I only understand that in athletics, there is a very clear difference in ability between and man and women athletes and to say otherwise is to ignore the obvious.

 

[perfectchaos007]

That's a brave bet!

It is blatantly obvious in sports where size is a huge factor (bball, football, etc..) that males will have the advantage.

Heavily skill based sports (archery, golf, and as I said before, even fighting ) are a far different story.

If golf was all putting and chip shots sure, but women have tried playing PGA events and trying to par a par 5 and other long holes were difficult for the women to do from the mens tees. I would like to see men and women compete against eachother on a par 3 course though. I bet a woman would have a very good shot at beating the guys

 

[Izuna]

That's a brave bet!

It is blatantly obvious in sports where size is a huge factor (bball, football, etc..) that males will have the advantage.

Heavily skill based sports (archery, golf, and as I said before, even fighting ) are a far different story.

'hol up...

Golf is segregated (they are given a handicap essentially). So is archery as far as I know. As is something like Kendo (sword fighting). I get that you think individual sports are less about physical strength and more about strategy and whatever you call skill, but there is literally no evidence that supports this.

 

[Roufianos]

I'd complain too. This person should be racing with their biological gender.

 

[Pndomo]

"Get rid of gender based leagues. Women shouldn't be separated, let the best athletes compete with one another."

Someone who's never watched sports before.
My friend is 17 and went to many basketball camps and he's already better than WNBA players just off his physical ability alone. That's just the reality of sports.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Quantum's whole argument literally boils down to "No really, trust me"

 

[QuantumZebra]

If golf was all putting and chip shots sure, but women have tried playing PGA events and trying to par a par 5 and other long holes were difficult for the women to do from the mens tees. I would like to see men and women compete against eachother on a par 3 course though. I bet a woman would have a very good shot at beating the guys

That's the only point I'm making here - I don't know why it is so hard to process for some people.

Skillset matters a great deal in sports that aren't heavily dependent on physical attributes. It can definitely be a deciding factor, gender aside.

'hol up...

Golf is segregated (they are given a handicap essentially). So is archery as far as I know. As is something like Kendo (sword fighting). I get that you think individual sports are less about physical strength and more about strategy and whatever you call skill, but there is literally no evidence that supports this.

Probably because it hasn't happened with a large enough sample size, yet.

I love getting blasted for arguing that skill trumps being male or female in a lot of competitions - when people don't even have decent sample sizes to go off of. It reeks of preconceived notions.

 

[Karsticles]

It's just some state event who cares. Totally Unsurprising many of don't understand what a state title or placing means

Lot of people's futures ride on these events

Hmm?

 

[see5harp]

You call what I said a dumb hypothetical and follow it with another hypothetical? Amazing.

I am saying that an equal-sized male fighter to Holm who is not as talented/skilled can and will definitely lose quite a few fights between them, in a hypothetical scenario. I don't know how this is world-shattering.

That's exactly what happens with women and men in MMA. Look at photos of men who fight at the same weight limit. Physical attributes are one of the MOST important parts of fighting. Why the hell do you think weight limits are a thing? Why do you think they always list height and reach advantages before the fight even starts? (TALE OF THE TAPE) It's literally one of the main things analysts look at to predict boxing and MMA fights.

 

[Azzurri]

That's a brave bet!

It is blatantly obvious in sports where size is a huge factor (bball, football, etc..) that males will have the advantage.

Heavily skill based sports (archery, golf, and as I said before, even fighting ) are a far different story.

Then tell me why there are no women on the PGA tour? I mean golf is a skill sport.

 

[norm9]

Hmm?

It was sarcasm and a play off other posters.

 

[A Link to the Past]

...

I've never heard "transgendering" before, lol.

 

[PSqueak]

There is dropping for eSports...

eSports are not safe from these controversies.

 

[Kurdel]

Hmm?

In the US, high school sports scholarships can be the difference between going to college or working at a diner.

This is what TV has taught me

...

I've never heard "transgendering" before, lol.

Don't worry, OP is indifferent towards it

 

[Nickle]

Serena Williams (probably the best female tennis player of all time) got destroyed by a male pro who wasn't even a top 100 player in the world. He smoked between games. Tennis requires a ton of finesse and skill, but at a certain point, raw strength wins out.

 

[Einchy]

...

I've never heard "transgendering" before, lol.

Probably got it confused with transitioning.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Then tell me why there are no women on the PGA tour? I mean golf is a skill sport.

Ask the people who started the PGA Tour? I don't know.

I would definitely bet a $20 that if women and men had been playing together for decades that there would be women ranked in the top 100 of both genders.

 

[Justified]

That baseline was met when the teenage girl was "assigned" to the girl's competition that she came 3rd place in.

Im not arguing that gender identity isnt a legit baseline, but Im not naive enough to think its not a controversial issue

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Disclaimer: Im indifferent when it comes to transgendering. I think everyone should be treated with respect and accepted regardless




http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/6/nattaphon-wangyot-transgender-student-riles-critic/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9vpRIqRXM0

Comments GAF. This does make me think of that argument between Evilore, and HolyBaikal that got her banned.

If Men are indeed generally physiologically stronger than females; how can this inevitable competing be resolved? Does DNA or Identity take precedent in Sports?

Why did you capitalize men? Why are you posting something from the Moonie Times, a highly disreputable source? Why the indifference, and the weird verb? Why the antiquated notion that men are physically superior?

 

[thepotatoman]

edit: wrong topic

 

[entremet]

Ask the people who started the PGA Tour? I don't know.

I would definitely bet a $20 that if women and men had been playing together for decades that there would be women ranked in the top 100 of both genders.

I'm enjoying your rhetorical gymnastics lol.

 

[Pndomo]

Yah brehs Ronda Rousey would definitely be able to fight Dominick Cruz because she has more skills.......



Smfh. Ridiculous statements being made itt.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Fun to go back and rewatch Hillary not concede after all the networks called it for Obama, complete with criticism about her taking the spotlight from the historic moment and jokes about her helping McCain.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/vc37rm/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-headlines---obama-makes-history

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/0u86hq/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-if-at-first-you-don-t-concede

I still don't understand why Hillary or Sanders stayed in past the point it was clear they lost, but this should give perspective on how everyone will forget it soon enough.

I knew that the transgender movement was just another Shillary front

 

[GreatestHits]

That's the only point I'm making here - I don't know why it is so hard to process for some people.

Skillset matters a great deal in sports that aren't heavily dependent on physical attributes. It can definitely be a deciding factor, gender aside.



Probably because it hasn't happened with a large enough sample size, yet.

I love getting blasted for arguing that skill trumps being male or female in a lot of competitions - when people don't even have decent sample sizes to go off of. It reeks of preconceived notions.

Great point, however some of your comments pay negligence to simple science, so people felt the need to correct that. That's all. But let it be known that knowing how to kick ass is important

 

[norm9]

Ask the people who started the PGA Tour? I don't know.

I would definitely bet a $20 that if women and men had been playing together for decades that there would be women ranked in the top 100 of both genders.

Would they starting from the men's or the women's tee?

 

[Jack Random]

Then tell me why there are no women on the PGA tour? I mean golf is a skill sport.

There have been women who have tried to compete in the regular PGA, but none have succeeded in finishing a tour event.

http://golftips.golfsmith.com/lpga-women-played-pga-tour-20647.html