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[TestOfTide]

And if those voters want to come along on their own, the grass is always greener on the other side and all that, welcome aboard.

But at this point? The left would be dumb as fuck to waste a single penny trying to convince a Trump voter of anything but staying home.

Depress their vote. Don't welcome their vote.

I'm not suggesting we waste any time trying to win over current Trump supporters. But I think you are underestimating how many voters there were last year that only voted for Trump as a vote against Hillary.

Those voters will be surprisingly easy to win over just from the fact that Hillary isn't running for office anymore.

 

[Schucky Ducky]

Can't wait for the political cinematic universe Aaron Sorkin will make from this mess.

 

[TestOfTide]

Fox News is going to turn on Trump as soon as they start denying them access too, especially once the Muroch sons assume full control.

Hannity, Carlson, and Fox and Friends folks won't turn on Trump.

But Wallace and Smith could easily turn on Trump. Wallace was one of the people that hosted and moderated a debate last year and he actually handled the task very well.

 

[MechDX]

Boy Mensch just posted a new article that is getting all of her followers into a fevered franzy. If it is true.....oh boy. Shit about to hit the fan

 

[PixlNinja]

Interesting night out last night. Honestly surprised how many people I've been interacting with that have bought into the "fake news" angle. I'm not talking info-wars types either. "Where is the evidence?" keeps coming up in these conversations and it's becoming increasingly frustrating.

All of these red flags, yet there are people who think it's just some bullshit conspiracy by the salty mainstream media. I'm starting to think that without some really damning, hard audio/video evidence that implicates Trump, anything less than that will be potentially viewed as some conspiracy against the administration.

 

[mrpoopy]

I'm anticipating this to be the next move:

"The press briefings as they exist now obviously don't work because the information is not relayed correctly. The American people want the facts and they're not getting them. It shows that this format is clearly outdated. Instead, we'll now send you more press releases and you can ask your questions by email if you have some".

I've got new for you https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/863002719400976384

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Interesting night out last night. Honestly surprised how many people I've been interacting with that have bought into the "fake news" angle. I'm not talking info-wars types either. "Where is the evidence?" keeps coming up in these conversations and it's becoming increasingly frustrating.

All of these red flags, yet there are people who think it's just some bullshit conspiracy by the salty mainstream media. I'm starting to think that without some really damning, hard audio/video evidence that implicates Trump, anything less than that will be potentially viewed as some conspiracy against the administration.

Well now they'll know how Bill/Hillary Clinton felt for the last 20+ years.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Fox News is going to turn on Trump as soon as they start denying them access too, especially once the Muroch sons assume full control.

On a scale of Ivanka to Hamlet, how likely are Murdoch's kids to save us from a tyrant? Cause if they're "moderating forces" and "social progessives" that "stand up for women and LGBT rights" as much as Ivanka does...

 

[The Lamp]

He could directly contradict Trump on his assertions made on TV. Trump opened himself up by talking about his conversations with Comey which in theory could eliminate any ability for Trump to claim privilege.

Nothing classified but he can go on the record under oath about the conversations he's had with the president. Since Trump brought them up the White House apparently cannot raise executive privilege and keep him from talking about it.

Because Trump talked about the dinner first, there isn't any executive privilege. Comey can't talk about the investigation itself but he is free to give his account of his interactions with Trump.

Comey is a private citizen who has every right to refute what the President has claimed about him.

Trump has been contradicted and called out for years, by all kinds of important people, on all kinds of things. He's been recorded saying outlandish things. He tweets lies all day. Republicans still polish his knob, control congress, and disconnect their D.C. voicemails when they don't want to hear from constituents.

Comey talking about his dinner in public without classified information is not going to do much IMO unless he has recorded video or audio evidence of something. It's gonna be Comey's word versus Trump's. People who think Trump is corrupt already think so, people who think he isn't won't change their minds.

I'm not gonna be impressed by people here who are super duper sure there's going to be a smoking gun against Trump and that this will get resolved with a new director, no matter how much smoke there is. The same hostile liberals tormented anyone who doubted Hillary.

Im skeptical that the investigation isn't hindered by Comey's firing and I think a public testimony of the dinner isn't going to checkmate him in any way. Unless you get a whistleblower, this could be mostly swept under the rug by a change of leadership in the executive branch.

 

[jstripes]

Fox News is going to turn on Trump as soon as they start denying them access too, especially once the Muroch sons assume full control.

Fox News as an entity won't say anything bad about Trump ever.

Well, unless the FBI marches through their doors and starts inspecting their books.

 

[Jackpot]

Boy Mensch just posted a new article that is getting all of her followers into a fevered franzy. If it is true.....oh boy. Shit about to hit the fan

We can assume it's not. Stop derailing the thread with her FUD.

 

[Mighty Chin]

Interesting night out last night. Honestly surprised how many people I've been interacting with that have bought into the "fake news" angle. I'm not talking info-wars types either. "Where is the evidence?" keeps coming up in these conversations and it's becoming increasingly frustrating.

All of these red flags, yet there are people who think it's just some bullshit conspiracy by the salty mainstream media. I'm starting to think that without some really damning, hard audio/video evidence that implicates Trump, anything less than that will be potentially viewed as some conspiracy against the administration.

It's the generation of instant gratification effect.

 

[Maxim726X]

Boy Mensch just posted a new article that is getting all of her followers into a fevered franzy. If it is true.....oh boy. Shit about to hit the fan

Good thing she's usually full of shit (read: always) so you don't have to spend any time wondering.

 

[abundant]

Interesting night out last night. Honestly surprised how many people I've been interacting with that have bought into the "fake news" angle. I'm not talking info-wars types either. "Where is the evidence?" keeps coming up in these conversations and it's becoming increasingly frustrating.

All of these red flags, yet there are people who think it's just some bullshit conspiracy by the salty mainstream media. I'm starting to think that without some really damning, hard audio/video evidence that implicates Trump, anything less than that will be potentially viewed as some conspiracy against the administration.

For anyone that thinks this to be a huge conspiracy against Trump, how can they not see that Trumps pushing against it so hard? I mean, just look at how Trump has been acting during the the Russian Investigation and compare it to how Hillary acted during Benghazi or the Email Investigation. How can anyone be this blind?

 

[Couleurs]

Boy Mensch just posted a new article that is getting all of her followers into a fevered franzy. If it is true.....oh boy. Shit about to hit the fan

Not sure whether to get excited about the implications of this; wouldn't Hatch already be receiving security briefings? I would imagine anyone toward the very top of the order of succession would get them, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[KernelPanic]

An article on the ever escalating pressure on Burr's investigation. Not much but I laughed at this part:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/...burr-trump-investigating-russia.html?referer=

Still, Mr. Burr’s distaste for the news media is well known at the Capitol.

On at least one occasion, he climbed out of an office window to avoid reporters, while carrying his dry cleaning, according to a senior Republican aide who has spoken to him about the episode.

“It was further than I thought,” Mr. Burr remembered of the descent, according to the aide.

 

[Amir0x]

People should just not post anything from Mensch. She is a lunatic that just tosses shit at the clock 24/7, so that occasionally the shit does hit the clock at the right time.

There are far more viable sources for information about this developing story. I mean by all means spread the articles if you like, because I want the name Trump to be associated with every piece of conspiracy and #fakenews available. Revenge for what he has wrought on politics. But don't actually, like, believe it yourselves.

 

[KingK]

For anyone that thinks this to be a huge conspiracy against Trump, how can they not see that Trumps pushing against it so hard? I mean, just look at how Trump has been acting during the the Russian Investigation and compare it to how Hillary acted during Benghazi or the Email Investigation. How can anyone be this blind?

Because these people spend, at most, maybe 10 minutes a week digesting/thinking about the news. They maybe see a couple headlines in passing and then just fit those into whatever narrative is dominant among their friends/family/culture. It's a combination of tribalism and willful ignorance.

 

[Mully]

Good thing she's usually full of shit (read: always) so you don't have to spend any time wondering.

Same thing with th3_j3st3r. I bought into his hype a few months back, and he's really just a self-absorbed hacker who claims he's the first to report on something big, but he's usually an hour behind everyone else.

th3_j3st3r, Mensch, and Claude Taylor are all conspiracy theory peddling narcissists.

I was surprised Olbermann sourced her on his show last week. I know Olbermann lacked credibility at the time, but using her as a source turned him into a partisan hack garbage man.

 

[Ithil]

An article on the ever escalating pressure on Burr's investigation. Not much but I laughed at this part:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/...burr-trump-investigating-russia.html?referer=

A look at Mark Warner conducting "negotiations" with Burr to accelerate the investigation:

 

[RDreamer]

People should just not post anything from Mensch. She is a lunatic that just tosses shit at the clock 24/7, so that occasionally the shit does hit the clock at the right time.

There are far more viable sources for information about this developing story. I mean by all means spread the articles if you like, because I want the name Trump to be associated with every piece of conspiracy and #fakenews available. Revenge for what he has wrought on politics. But don't actually, like, believe it yourselves.

I think in general people shouldn't put all their eggs into the basket of collusion, too. Actual outright collusion isn't the only explanation for everything we've seen. I think Trump is hiding more mundane bullshit that could get him in trouble but possibly not necessarily locked up or anything like that. Just in hot water with a lot of people. To me the far more plausible explanation for everything is that the guy just is pro-Russia, largely because he's getting some funding from there for his businesses and he immersed himself in those sorts of people. He doesn't see it as a problem but his campaign knew the funding thing probably would be a problem.

Overall Trump is just far too incompetent to actually have this big conspiracy or plan that seems to have actually worked. And it's not like he's surrounded with competent people either. They're also all morons.

We're probably better off hoping he digs himself a hole like he already has been doing with stupid threats and other chaos.

 

[jstripes]

People should just not post anything from Mensch. She is a lunatic that just tosses shit at the clock 24/7, so that occasionally the shit does hit the clock at the right time.

There are far more viable sources for information about this developing story. I mean by all means spread the articles if you like, because I want the name Trump to be associated with every piece of conspiracy and #fakenews available. Revenge for what he has wrought on politics. But don't actually, like, believe it yourselves.

Can I read her as political fan fiction that's occasionally accurate?

I can picture sources feeding her a mix of real and fake intel, and them giggling when she posts the fake stuff.

 

[abundant]

Because these people spend, at most, maybe 10 minutes a week digesting/thinking about the news. They maybe see a couple headlines in passing and then just fit those into whatever narrative is dominant among their friends/family/culture. It's a combination of tribalism and willful ignorance.

Even just 10 minutes of news per week should be enough to see that Trump's actions are not the actions of someone who's innocent. It's full on willful ignorance, because anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see right through Trump.

 

[danthefan]

Boy Mensch just posted a new article that is getting all of her followers into a fevered franzy. If it is true.....oh boy. Shit about to hit the fan

The one saying Trump basically isn't president anymore.... yeah who on earth believes that? It's nonsense.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

What does the senate need to issue a subpoena?

I'm just curious, if a senator wanted to get Trump to testify, what would it take to make that happen?

 

[Funkyhamster]

Can I read her as political fan fiction that's occasionally accurate?

I can picture sources feeding her a mix of real and fake intel, and them giggling when she posts the fake stuff.

This is how I'm treating the Twitter insider brigade too. Entertaining wish fulfillment fantasies that have an off chance of actually happening. Plus, given that they're making such concrete claims, we should know within the year whether they're totally full of crap.

I think in general people shouldn't put all their eggs into the basket of collusion, too. Actual outright collusion isn't the only explanation for everything we've seen. I think Trump is hiding more mundane bullshit that could get him in trouble but possibly not necessarily locked up or anything like that. Just in hot water with a lot of people. To me the far more plausible explanation for everything is that the guy just is pro-Russia, largely because he's getting some funding from there for his businesses and he immersed himself in those sorts of people. He doesn't see it as a problem but his campaign knew the funding thing probably would be a problem.

I'd almost prefer collusion to Trump just being so incompetent that he managed to make everyone think he's guilty. Incompetence on that magnitude has this sort of terrifying nihilistic quality to it...

 

[Amir0x]

I think in general people shouldn't put all their eggs into the basket of collusion, too. Actual outright collusion isn't the only explanation for everything we've seen. I think Trump is hiding more mundane bullshit that could get him in trouble but possibly not necessarily locked up or anything like that. Just in hot water with a lot of people. To me the far more plausible explanation for everything is that the guy just is pro-Russia, largely because he's getting some funding from there for his businesses and he immersed himself in those sorts of people. He doesn't see it as a problem but his campaign knew the funding thing probably would be a problem.

Overall Trump is just far too incompetent to actually have this big conspiracy or plan that seems to have actually worked. And it's not like he's surrounded with competent people either. They're also all morons.

We're probably better off hoping he digs himself a hole like he already has been doing with stupid threats and other chaos.

I definitely agree. We should be satisfied with any news that harms this man's image, whether it is legal or simply uncomfortable. I want him waking up every night in a cold sweat thinking of all the shady shit he has done in his life, in a constant panic that this neverending scrutiny is going to turn it up.

It is immensely satisfying to me to picture how stressful he must be at all hours, given the abhorrent life he has led.

Can I read her as political fan fiction that's occasionally accurate?

I can picture sources feeding her a mix of real and fake intel, and them giggling when she posts the fake stuff.

Do what you like of course, but I doubt even her 'sources' have many real insiders. It's more likely she is just trolling for any information she can get, and just ties it together into thinly connected narratives. Occasionally because some of these connections are surface level she can claim she pointed something out, but as for real breaking news I think you're better off not actually hoping for reality from her.

At best you'll never be able to tell what strand is true and what is not, effectively giving it all little to no value but entertainment.

I spread the stuff among Republicans, but I don't believe any of it.

 

[Tovarisc]

https://twitter.com/emrosenberg/status/863425822199361536

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/12/us/politics/fbi-interim-director.html

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

African dictator mode: ON.

 

[Electric Eye]

https://twitter.com/emrosenberg/status/863425822199361536

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/12/us/politics/fbi-interim-director.html

They're full of shit they know damn well they mean "loyal" as in lapdog Comey was anything but a show boat dude was the Ned Flanders of FBI directors to a fault.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Interesting night out last night. Honestly surprised how many people I've been interacting with that have bought into the "fake news" angle. I'm not talking info-wars types either. "Where is the evidence?" keeps coming up in these conversations and it's becoming increasingly frustrating.

All of these red flags, yet there are people who think it's just some bullshit conspiracy by the salty mainstream media. I'm starting to think that without some really damning, hard audio/video evidence that implicates Trump, anything less than that will be potentially viewed as some conspiracy against the administration.

I imagine even if we say somehow have the infamous "pee pee tape" some will dismiss it as digital special effects.

 

[Seventy70]

Same thing with th3_j3st3r. I bought into his hype a few months back, and he's really just a self-absorbed hacker who claims he's the first to report on something big, but he's usually an hour behind everyone else.

th3_j3st3r, Mensch, and Claude Taylor are all conspiracy theory peddling narcissists.

I was surprised Olbermann sourced her on his show last week. I know Olbermann lacked credibility at the time, but using her as a source turned him into a partisan hack garbage man.

I've been following them for a couple of months and this matches my assessment. Mensch keeps retweeting her own articles and tweets that praise her. Jester doesn't do anything but condescend and post music videos all day. Both of them have fanbases that feed into their egos and act like they are some kind of holy prophets.

I don't read them much anymore.

 

[RPGCrazied]

Garrett Haake‏Verified account
@GarrettHaake

No response from @realDonaldTrump as @KellyO shouts to ask if he's recording meetings in WH

Lmao, running scared.

 

[PixlNinja]

For anyone that thinks this to be a huge conspiracy against Trump, how can they not see that Trumps pushing against it so hard? I mean, just look at how Trump has been acting during the the Russian Investigation and compare it to how Hillary acted during Benghazi or the Email Investigation. How can anyone be this blind?

"Lamestream Media". Even my co-workers are taking this approach to it and it's made it so I feel like I can't even discuss it anymore without becoming frustrated to the point of hostility. It's absurd.

The paranoia and distrust for the media that a large segment of the public seems to have is beyond frightening. It legitimizes Trump's actions in their eyes and paints him as some victim who is just trying to do the right thing. Like he said himself, he could shoot somebody in the middle of the street and get away with it. How do you fight that? It's ridiculous that it might actually take a fucking piss tape with a bunch of Russian Prostitutes in order to bring this guy down definitively in the eyes of the public at large.

Does the FBI accept donations?

 

[pestul]

I wonder if Comey's encounter where Trump threatens the 'TAPES' was akin to "We have everything on you Trump. You're done."

 

[RDreamer]

I'd almost prefer collusion to Trump just being so incompetent that he managed to make everyone think he's guilty. Incompetence on that magnitude has this sort of terrifying nihilistic quality to it...

He just fired the head of the FBI and thought no one would care, then tweeted threats about taping him. We already know he's incompetent to a magnitude I'm not sure we can ever fathom. It is already terrifying.

But yeah I'd rather have someone competent enough to do crazy collusion than someone so ridiculously incompetent like Trump is now. Who knows, maybe he would make deals on our benefit? It's kinda like all the stuff people said Hillary did. It's like man if she's the most powerful woman in the world like that maybe we should have her as leader.

Trump definitely isn't that though.

 

[abundant]

"Lamestream Media". Even my co-workers are taking this approach to it and it's made it so I feel like I can't even discuss it anymore without becoming frustrated to the point of hostility. It's absurd.

The paranoia and distrust for the media that a large segment of the public seems to have is beyond frightening. It legitimizes Trump's actions in their eyes and paints him as some victim who is just trying to do the right thing. Like he said himself, he could shoot somebody in the middle of the street and get away with it. How do you fight that? It's ridiculous that it might actually take a fucking piss tape with a bunch of Russian Prostitutes in order to bring this guy down definitively in the eyes of the public at large.

Does the FBI accept donations?

This is why I thank god that I don't have to put up with this mess. My father's a Republican but he saw through Trump's BS right away. Sure he was one of those "give him a chance" post election, but that quickly faded away by the second day of his presidency.

 

[slit]

Trump has been contradicted and called out for years, by all kinds of important people, on all kinds of things. He's been recorded saying outlandish things. He tweets lies all day. Republicans still polish his knob, control congress, and disconnect their D.C. voicemails when they don't want to hear from constituents.

Comey talking about his dinner in public without classified information is not going to do much IMO unless he has recorded video or audio evidence of something. It's gonna be Comey's word versus Trump's. People who think Trump is corrupt already think so, people who think he isn't won't change their minds.

I'm not gonna be impressed by people here who are super duper sure there's going to be a smoking gun against Trump and that this will get resolved with a new director, no matter how much smoke there is. The same hostile liberals tormented anyone who doubted Hillary.

Im skeptical that the investigation isn't hindered by Comey's firing and I think a public testimony of the dinner isn't going to checkmate him in any way. Unless you get a whistleblower, this could be mostly swept under the rug by a change of leadership in the executive branch.

This is pretty much where I'm at. Call me impatient but I'm not not jumping up and down with excitement anymore until he is either out or people around him start getting arrested. I'm watching and hoping there is a breakthrough soon and I think there is a chance there will be but Trump has gotten himself out unscathed so many times now I'm not setting myself up for disappointment again and I'm sure as hell not putting faith in Comey. If Comey turns out to be the key to sorting this whole mess, great, but there are so many variables with him it's hard to put faith in that.

 

[sc0la]

I imagine even if we say somehow have the infamous "pee pee tape" some will dismiss it as digital special effects.

If it's digital the god-damned steam coming off the streams sure does look realistic!

 

[NihonTiger90]

Same thing with th3_j3st3r. I bought into his hype a few months back, and he's really just a self-absorbed hacker who claims he's the first to report on something big, but he's usually an hour behind everyone else.

th3_j3st3r, Mensch, and Claude Taylor are all conspiracy theory peddling narcissists.

I was surprised Olbermann sourced her on his show last week. I know Olbermann lacked credibility at the time, but using her as a source turned him into a partisan hack garbage man.

If you do choose to keep them in your orbit, the best advice I can give is be skeptical of everything they say. Not necessarily because they're lying, but because people can easily manipulate folks like that to spread false information. As a practicing journalist, you learn to be a bit skeptical until you can verify it with other sources, and each of these characters should be treated as an individual source (plus they're getting info second-hand, which means its not as firmly verifiable)

Well, except Louise. She's just projecting her own insanity onto Trump and Co. by calling everyone who disagrees with her a Russian spy.

This is pretty much where I'm at. Call me impatient but I'm not not jumping up and down with excitement anymore until he is either out or people around him start getting arrested. I'm watching and hoping there is a breakthrough soon and I think there is a chance there will be but Trump has gotten himself out unscathed so many times now I'm not setting myself up for disappointment again and I'm sure as hell not putting faith in Comey. If Comey turns out to be the key to sorting this whole mess, great, but there are so many variables with him it's hard to put faith in that.

I've come to believe they'll just kill it quietly in Congress over the Dems objections, plus whoever Trump appoints to the FBI will simply end the investigation their first day in office. He's not invulnerable but his amount of influence and power makes it tough to take him down, because if Trump goes down, he's taking as many people with him as possible because he's a petty asshole. And most importantly: nobody in Trump's orbit is willing to sacrifice their future to stop him.

 

[Mully]

If you do choose to keep them in your orbit, the best advice I can give is be skeptical of everything they say. Not necessarily because they're lying, but because people can easily manipulate folks like that to spread false information.

Well, except Louise. She's just projecting her own insanity onto Trump and Co.

Oh don't worry. I don't believe anything that they say. I saw a GAF poster mention th3_j3st3r and subscribed to him thinking he would offer scoops. All he does is praise himself and post YouTube videos.

 

[BrassDragon]

This is pretty much where I'm at. Call me impatient but I'm not not jumping up and down with excitement anymore until he is either out or people around him start getting arrested. I'm watching and hoping there is a breakthrough soon and I think there is a chance there will be but Trump has gotten himself out unscathed so many times now I'm not setting myself up for disappointment again and I'm sure as hell not putting faith in Comey. If Comey turns out to be the key to sorting this whole mess, great, but there are so many variables with him it's hard to put faith in that.

The key is how many resources they allocate to these investigations. This stuff is hugely complex and there are only so many productive hours you can get out of a small team, especially in a context of extreme secrecy / operational security. Any case can be solved if you invest enough time, manpower, appropriate expertise, technical infrastructure and money into it... but reverse is also true.

My concern is that the White House (and maybe some actors within the GOP), rather than scuttle the investigation completely, will quietly starve it of resources.

 

[Kyzer]

I imagine even if we say somehow have the infamous "pee pee tape" some will dismiss it as digital special effects.

Well, to be fair the kremlin is infamous for faking sex tapes to ruin peoples reputations


But yeah, whatever trump says people will buy...I think were on the brink of civil war when you look at the insulated political divides currently in the country

 

[TheLaughingStock]

Interesting night out last night. Honestly surprised how many people I've been interacting with that have bought into the "fake news" angle. I'm not talking info-wars types either. "Where is the evidence?" keeps coming up in these conversations and it's becoming increasingly frustrating.

All of these red flags, yet there are people who think it's just some bullshit conspiracy by the salty mainstream media. I'm starting to think that without some really damning, hard audio/video evidence that implicates Trump, anything less than that will be potentially viewed as some conspiracy against the administration.

Look, do you really believe Donald Trump himself colluded with Russian officials to torpedeo the career of Hillary Clinton and has been POTUS for nearly 4 months? Despite all the flags you see...do you really believe he wouldn't be arrested right on the spot at any true red flag? That Pres. Obama's administration would hand over the keys to the US presidency to a Russian operative...

 

[Amibguous Cad]

I'm not suggesting we waste any time trying to win over current Trump supporters. But I think you are underestimating how many voters there were last year that only voted for Trump as a vote against Hillary.

Those voters will be surprisingly easy to win over just from the fact that Hillary isn't running for office anymore.

I'm still pretty shocked at how steady Trump's approval ratings have been. They basically haven't budged since election day. I'm much less sanguine on this than you are - to my mind, 2016 proved how steady and partisan the moderate vote is. You'd have thought that they would have defected from a candidate that was so reviled by the party elite and the rest of the country, but they didn't.

It turns out moderates will shut up and vote their partisan affiliation almost no matter who you put up - the same would be true of the left if Sanders had gotten the nomination or if someone more outlandish like an Oprah had. That's how deep partisan ties run in modern America.

Extremists, meanwhile, are the squeaky wheel. Sanders supporters could and did stay home or vote third party even as Rockefeller Republicans held their noses and pulled the lever for Trump. The parties don't have to shore up their moderate flank anymore - for all intents and purposes, there isn't a moderate flank. Their main goal has to be to mobilize constituencies that vote less frequency, whether that's the minority turnout Obama mustered, the millennials that Sanders relied upon, or the various and sundry racists and Buchananites and alt-righters that Trump managed to get excited about politics again.

In other words, the key in 2018 and 2020 is going to be turnout.

 

[Tovarisc]

 

[Alex_Mexico]

This Liberty University is obviously Christian but what denomination? It's clearly not catholic. Is it evangelical?

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

This Liberty University is obviously Christian but what denomination? It's clearly not catholic. Is it evangelical?

I think it's Baptist.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Sanders voters polled higher for Hillary than Hillary's voters did for Obama. This is a bad take that keeps popping up. It mistakes the push for progressivism as separate from the cold reality of pulling the lever for the best choice, and that's what Sanders voters ultimately did after they said their piece.

Some of the voters in the states that gave up the election to Trump might've gone for Sanders, given the union base that normally supports Dems in those places. But the real problem is not people who actually turned out for primary season, it's people who didn't come out to vote at all.

Some of that is the "depressed vote" phenomenon, where people weren't excited enough about Clinton to bother spreading the word on her. But beyond that, Democrats don't even try to create new voters. The entire system they've built is based on shuffling around numbers among an increasingly polarized, small number of people. Chasing moderates, like they did to great success in the 90's.

It's not the 90's anymore. They need to get new people to bother coming in.

Oh, yeah, that's what I meant. I think we agree on most of this. By "Sanders supporter" I don't mean (only) the person that showed up for caucuses, but the generally apolitical college sophomore that didn't see a point between choosing between (what his friends called) two corporate shills, but would have registered if there was a lot of excitement around Sanders.

I agree that the goal is generally to create new voters - people who rarely vote or never registered, such as Obama and Trump managed - but I do think that someone on the fringes of either party is much better able to mobilize those constituencies and get them to the polls.

Anyway, I really don't want to turn this into another pointless should we have nominated Bernie argument, I only bring it up to say that beating Trump probably won't come from independents and moderates defecting but in using outrage against Trump to drive turnout in 2018 and 2020.

 

[kirblar]

Sanders voters polled higher for Hillary than Hillary's voters did for Obama. This is a bad take that keeps popping up.

Some of the voters in the states that gave up the election to Trump might've gone for Sanders, given the union base that normally supports Dems in those places. But the real problem is not people who actually turned out for primary season, it's people who didn't come out to vote at all.

Some of that is the "depressed vote" phenomenon, where people weren't excited enough about Clinton to bother spreading the word on her. But beyond that, Democrats don't even try to create new voters. The entire system they've built is based on shuffling around numbers among an increasingly polarized, small number of people. Chasing moderates, like they did to great success in the 90's.

It's not the 90's anymore. They need to get new people to bother coming in.

Sanders wasn't winning Democrats (he lost them 2:1), he was winning Independents. (D:I ratio was 3:1 in the primaries.) His support was outside of the party, and I think there really was a crossover thing where Sanders was the second choice of many Trump voters, but they weren't participating in Dem primaries (WV excepted, w/ its crazy 39% Sanders primary voters planned to vote for Trump in the general stat.) So when discussion come up only about the Dem primary, you have a lot of hidden Trump voters pushing Sanders (but who wouldn't have voted for him in a head to head when the time came since he was their #2.)

You're wrong on the coalition thing. The Dem #s are expanding. We won the popular vote by millions. The problem is that the US electoral system punishes urban areas hard, and the parties are completely polarizing on an Urban/Rural axis as the Southern Strategy goes national. It's not that we're not bringing people in, it's that rural whites completely abandoned the party.