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[IdreamofHIME]

Amazing how many people are attacking him for this. It's an amazing move.
China's bullying of Taiwan and anyone who wants to deal with Yaiean is disgusting.

 

[Violet_0]

Because they are in a civil war with them technically since the whole Mao revolution thing.

well, Cold War more like. Taiwan doesn't stand a chance in a military conflict

I just checked and the only European "country" that officially recognizes Taiwan is the Vatican. When a part of a country has been independent for this long, is doing very well for themselves and the majority of the population is absolutely against reunification, it might be time to recognize them as a sovereign nation. Look at Hong Kong for a cautionary tale

 

[Little Green Yoda]

I agree with this.

In the midst of all this fretting about China and about the US, I feel like this thread is sorely lacking from the perspective of Taiwan and its people. They are an independent state even if they don't have the international recognition of this status; the odd relationship between the US and China provides a circumstance in which Taiwan can maintain this independent state. All of this posturing about how the US shouldn't have to kowtow to China, but few of those people are thinking about the consequences this would have on Taiwan. If China chooses to act aggressively, Taiwan wouldn't be able to resist very much. A population of 23.5 million may be threatened because of the president-elect lacks knowledge of how to navigate foreign relations.



I think a lot of people in this thread saying the rough equivalent of "U S A" and talking shit about China don't understand how important the idea of 'face' is in Chinese culture.

'Face' is basically pride; even if its just words to give a person face, that person can be slightly satisfied by the paying of due respect. By flaunting the first principle in relations with China, you're basically disrespecting China. They might think they have to act aggressively to save face and show that they can't be pushed around by the US. The One China approach gives China face even if the reality is that it's all symbolic gestures.

From another perspective, one could also consider that the situation specific to "One China" (aka Taiwan) may be symbolic, but the gesture of acknowledging this idea gives China the status of an equal in the Pacific sphere, and to China that may be worth more than actually having Taiwan as part of China. To them it means they have equal if not greater control in the Pacific than the US does. If this is breached, then China could also strike out in different ways to assert its status.

Good post.

 

[royalan]

Sounds like normal Chinese-US relations. Pretty sure we lob those at each other every other day.

Yeah, and Washington collectively pissed itself yesterday over "normal China-US relations." Do you know something our diplomats don't?

I'm really starting to wonder if this blind denial over Trump's huge blunder with the world's other major superpower is some sort of coping mechanism.

 

[Theonik]

well, Cold War more like. Taiwan doesn't stand a chance in a military conflict

I just checked and the only European "country" that officially recognizes Taiwan is the Vatican. When a part of a country has been independent for this long, is doing very well for themselves and the majority of the population is absolutely against reunification, it might be time to recognize them as a sovereign nation. Look at Hong Kong for a cautionary tale

They do not 'wish' re-unification, but as far as either party is concerned there is only one China and that China is them. The PRC was only recognised by the UN in the 70s and before that the ROC held China's seat.

 

[ultratruman]

Amazing how many people are attacking him for this. It's an amazing move.
China's bullying of Taiwan and anyone who wants to deal with Yaiean is disgusting.

I agree, and the perennially outraged folk trying to divine DJT's secret motivations for such a call are missing the opportunity to learn something about why Tsai Ing-wen matters. China freaks out about everything related to Taiwan, and the US has just humiliatingly obeyed the dictatorial safe space rules for decades, ignoring the democracy, dignity, and safety of Taiwan.

Trump should call the Dalai Lama next.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

I'm really starting to wonder if this blind denial over Trump's huge blunder with the world's other major superpower is some sort of coping mechanism.

It's going to be the new normalization going forward.

"Good news everyone! President Trump hasn't caused an International Incident today!"
Then there's a huge parade in his honor.

 

[bob_arctor]

Yeah, and Washington collectively pissed itself yesterday over "normal China-US relations." Do you know something our diplomats don't?

I'm really starting to wonder if this blind denial over Trump's huge blunder with the world's other major superpower is some sort of coping mechanism.

I mean, you have some people here spitting back Trump's own tweet about weapons selling vs one phone call as if they wrote that garbage "point" themselves. So yeah, that sounds about right.

 

[post-S]

https://youtu.be/YuoqAe44Kcc
For people who have no idea why Chinese think Taiwan should be part of China.
Technically China and Taiwan are still in civil war since they never signed a peace treaty.

 

[andythinkpad]

Afraid much? If Taiwan declared independence tomorrow do you honestly think China would go to war with the US?

China will level Taiwan's airports and ports and impose economic sanction.

Nobody will trade with Taiwan except US (and Germany I am sure), it will be a low level war until the Taiwanese vote in a anti Independence government.

 

[ultratruman]

https://youtu.be/YuoqAe44Kcc
For people who have no idea why Chinese think Taiwan should be part of China.
Technically China and Taiwan are still in civil war since they never signed a peace treaty.

The irony of all this is that 2016 China looks a lot more like Chiang Kai-shek's Taiwan than Mao's China.

 

[jerry113]

I'm ok with the president of the free world sending a clear message about not being afraid to call whomever he wishes to, but I wish it wasn't donald fucking trump doing this.

 

[royalan]

China will level Taiwan's airports and ports and impose economic sanction.

Nobody will trade with Taiwan except US (and Germany I am sure), it will be a low level war until the Taiwanese vote in a anti Independence government.

Exactly. And as dramatis pointed out last page, people supporting Trump's actions here out of feigned concern for Taiwan don't seem to realize that Taiwan has the most to lose from Trump being so reckless.

 

[ultratruman]

Exactly. And as dramatis pointed out last page, people supporting Trump's actions here out of feigned concern for Taiwan don't seem to realize that Taiwan has the most to lose from Trump being so reckless.

Yes, let's care more about helping China save 'face' than being a symbol for democratic values in the world. This argument that 'oh but you don't understand, China really really cares about (x)' is getting old. Let's be real: this was a phone call - a courtesy, not a policy. And he's not President until inauguration day.

I dislike Trump as much as anyone, but the modern Chinese government is worse. It's a morally awful Han ethno-dictatorship with just enough nukes to believe it can bully the world. The US should be supportive of China's neighbours, and not bend over to accommodate the communist party's every loony anxiety.

 

[PdotMichael]

Afraid much? If Taiwan declared independence tomorrow do you honestly think China would go to war with the US?

Yes, China would attack Taiwan.

From a Chinese point of view is like claiming that the Union would accept the souvereignity of the South Sates after Fort Sumter.

 

[hoos30]

Chances are, Trump didn't even know any of this.

I'm going with this.

 

[B-Dubs]

Yes, let's care more about helping China save 'face' than being a symbol for democratic values in the world. This argument that 'oh but you don't understand, China really really cares about (x)' is getting old. Let's be real: this was a phone call - a courtesy, not a policy. And he's not President until inauguration day.

I dislike Trump as much as anyone, but the modern Chinese government is worse. It's a morally awful Han ethno-dictatorship with just enough nukes to believe it can bully the world. The US should be supportive of China's neighbours, and not bend over to accommodate the communist party's every loony anxiety.

That's nice, but what happens when Taiwan declares formal independence and China invades? Do we let ourselves get drawn into a war with a nuclear power and lose leverage over North Korea as a result of damaged relations with China?

 

[gwarm01]

One of the few mistakes hes made I do not mind. Our policy with Taiwan is counterproductive with how China continually attempts to undermine them. Taiwan has always been an ardent ally and they deserve better.

I agree. The one China policy is ridiculous and the fact that China uses its economic power to bully other countries into pretending Taiwan isn't a sovereign nation is pathetic.

 

[Vyrance]

Yea I like this move by him, intentional or not.

 

[PdotMichael]

Both Mainland China and Taiwan following the one China policy. So backing up Taiwan would mean to cancel all relationship with Mainland China.
Even Tsai Ing-wen recognizes the One China policy.

An open conflict is not the way Taiwan wants to handle things. But the combination of anti-China sentiment and Trumps says how it is helps to recognize people who have no idea about that topic.

 

[ultratruman]

Yes, China would attack Taiwan.

From a Chinese point of view is like claiming that the Union would accept the souvereignity of the South Sates after Fort Sumter.

Except the union did have democratic sovereignty over the southern states, China has no such claim with Taiwan, and that matters. Claiming a Taiwan declaration of independence would be akin to the attack of Fort Sumter is ludicrous.

Maybe China would invade Taiwan, but the world has changed a lot from 20 years ago when China tried to use its military to cow the island. Taiwan's economy is booming, and it has put a lot of investment into defence infrastructure. China's belligerence in the South China Sea has led to more regional support for Taiwan, and the example of what's happening in Hong Kong has hardened Taiwanese opposition to integrating into China.

https://news.usni.org/2016/02/10/at...-doesnt-have-the-ability-to-invade-taiwan-yet

 

[privitsan02]

War or not, intentional or not, this is good. It's morally wrong to support China in this here given the war crimes they've pulled with both Taiwan and Tibet over the past 50 years. Trump may be a fool and crazy, but maybe he should call the Dalai Lama next to stir the pot even more.

More people need to be aware of how terrible the Chinese government is, and how they've been slowly invading Hong Kong, spreading propaganda and ruining territories like Tibet and Taiwan over the past half a century.

Best wishes.

 

[ultratruman]

War or not, intentional or not, this is good. It's morally wrong to support China in this here given the war crimes they've pulled with both Taiwan and Tibet over the past 50 years. Trump may be a fool and crazy, but maybe he should call the Dalai Lama next to stir the pot even more.

More people need to be aware of how terrible the Chinese government is, and how they've been slowly invading Hong Kong, spreading propaganda and ruining territories like Tibet and Taiwan over the past half a century.

Best wishes.

Did you mean to send this as a PM to Trump's team, Mr President?

 

[PdotMichael]

War or not, intentional or not, this is good. It's morally wrong to support China in this here given the war crimes they've pulled with both Taiwan and Tibet over the past 50 years. Trump may be a fool and crazy, but maybe he should call the Dalai Lama next to stir the pot even more.

More people need to be aware of how terrible the Chinese government is, and how they've been slowly invading Hong Kong, spreading propaganda and ruining territories like Tibet and Taiwan over the past half a century.

Best wishes.

Taiwan?

How?

Except the union did have democratic sovereignty over the southern states, China has no such claim with Taiwan, and that matters. Claiming a Taiwan declaration of independence would be akin to the attack of Fort Sumter is ludicrous.

Maybe China would invade Taiwan, but the world has changed a lot from 20 years ago when China tried to use its military to cow the island. Taiwan's economy is booming, and it has put a lot of investment into defence infrastructure. China's belligerence in the South China Sea has led to more regional support for Taiwan, and the example of what's happening in Hong Kong has hardened Taiwanese opposition to integrating into China.

https://news.usni.org/2016/02/10/at...-doesnt-have-the-ability-to-invade-taiwan-yet

Democratic sovereignty doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[InaSnowBoundLand]

With nuke-ready North Korea looming, brainless conman Donald Trump (who lost the popular vote by more than 2.5 million votes, receiving only a measly ~46% of the vote) antagonizes one of the most important actors in that conflict.

Wow, that's some incredible stupidity -- incredible negligence and recklessness by himself and his advisers, regardless of whether or not this was intentional. This is a preview into the mix of chaos and incompetence that has been invited into the most powerful position on the planet.

But at least we avoided Hillary's imaginary war with Russia, right? Lol.

 

[Megalosaro]

he's a Know Nothing

the opposite, Trump will congratulate Duterte for his ''Law&Order''

Well that already happened

 

[ultratruman]

Democratic sovereignty doesn't mean what you think it means.

k

 

[fritolay]

I for one am shocked that someone with zero qualifications would make these kinds of mistakes.



lol, man some Americans really think they are invincible huh?

I don't think you quoted anything about being invincible. But nice jab.

 

[Clerical Error]

Yea I like this move by him, intentional or not.

I think this is a terrible attitude to have. The President's actions need to be supported by knowledge and driven by intent. I want him to understand what he's doing before he makes a decision, not trying to justify it with hot takes on twitter after the fact.

 

[ultratruman]

I think this is a terrible attitude to have. The President's actions need to be supported by knowledge and driven by intent. I want him to understand what he's doing before he makes a decision, not trying to justify it with hot takes on twitter after the fact.

Spend all your time trying to figure out the 'real motivations' for the actions of political actors and you'll end up sounding like a disappointed lover. Judge political actions by their consequences, symbolic or otherwise. That's what really matters.

 

[studyguy]

I think this is a terrible attitude to have. The President's actions need to be supported by knowledge and driven by intent. I want him to understand what he's doing before he makes a decision, not trying to justify it with hot takes on twitter after the fact.

Considering he didn't just walk it back but ran from taking responsibility on Twitter, it's embarrassing to think he blundered into this and people take it as a net positive. There was no master plan there or greater push to assist the Taiwanese people. I don't see why people assume that in the face of his response. Likely he'll never return to the issue in public from here out.

 

[PdotMichael]

Considering he didn't just walk it back but ran from taking responsibility on Twitter, it's embarrassing to think he blundered into this and people take it as a net positive. There was no master plan there or greater push to assist the Taiwanese people. I don't see why people assume that in the face of his response. Likely he'll never return to the issue in public from here out.

Any conflict about the Taiwan question would only lead to suffering of the Taiwanese people. And so long Taiwan itself has their own One China policy running it means that the USA starting to support Taiwan in an aggresive way will lead to a conflict with China.

World is a little bit more complicated than good or bad.

 

[Kid Heart]

I agree. The one China policy is ridiculous and the fact that China uses its economic power to bully other countries into pretending Taiwan isn't a sovereign nation is pathetic.

Because for all intents and purposes Taiwan is independent in everything but name. As long as we don't call them an independent nation they get to continue moving about doing what they want.

For China, it is extremely important that others recognize there is only one China, and if they feel disrespected they could move not just in a way that negatively impacts us, but also Taiwan. Keep in mind it could be Taiwan that suffers more from the consequences of our actions then we do.

Yes it is dumb we can't call Taiwan by name directly, but as long as Taiwan is fine, does it matter what we call them? Would you still think this move is fantastic if China starts to economically strangle Taiwan if they feel they are getting too uppity? Or worse, invade the island to take back control?

You can spend all day talking about how unfair the world is, and you would be right, but that wont change the reality of how things are. We need to tread extremely lightly in terms of navigating international matters, and Trump just breached diplomatic protocol on a whim before he is even in office.

If this was some long thought out plan with contingencies planned for China's response I would be fine with the matter. After all I too hope someday Taiwan becomes recognized as an independent nation. However, in this case the white house had to come and cover Trump's butt by reaffirming that there only is one China. Can you think of what would have happened if Obama wasn't here to cover for Trump? Do you think Trump and his team has the capabilities to handle the potential fallout? Does something like this set a good precedent for Trump handling more serious diplomatic matters?

I hope more people in this thread ask themselves these questions, because I feel a lot of you here are treating this far too lightly. If experts on foreign relations are concerned about this I see no reason everyone else shouldn't be either. Even if you feel in this case Trump did the right thing, you need to ask yourself if you are ready for the fallout of such actions. Because if you aren't, you might want to think things over a bit more then Trump did.

 

[Clerical Error]

Spend all your time trying to figure out the 'real motivations' for the actions of political actors and you'll end up sounding like a disappointed lover. Judge political actions by their consequences, symbolic or otherwise. That's what really matters.

You might be right in that it doesn't matter whether the apparent lack of care is real or kayfabe, but I don't think that really changes my point. I think the consequences of the President acting like he doesn't care to know what's going on before he does a thing are undesirable. It's a bad uncertainty to inject into foreign policy and it is likely to exacerbate tensions.

 

[NetMapel]

Taiwan?

How?




Democratic sovereignty doesn't mean what you think it means.

Well Taiwan cannot have full participation in important international platforms such as WHO, WTO, UN, and many other international organizations due to pressure from China. It also limits their trading partners because any negotiation between Taiwan and another country will be viewed hostilely by China.

 

[ultratruman]

Any conflict about the Taiwan question would only lead to suffering of the Taiwanese people. And so long Taiwan itself has their own One China policy running it means that the USA starting to support Taiwan in an aggresive way will lead to a conflict with China.

World is a little bit more complicated than good or bad.

Taiwan is forced to accept the 'One China' policy because relinquishing it would be akin to declaring independence. Taiwan doesn't want conflict, but neither do they want to end up like Hong Kong. That's why they elected an independent president who will continue to invest massively into defence infrastructure.

You seem very sensitive towards Xi Jinping's feelings and not at all concerned about the Taiwanese people's struggle for democracy.

Because for all intents and purposes Taiwan is independent in everything but name. As long as we don't call them an independent nation they get to continue moving about doing what they want.

Being patient with the crocodile, and hoping it doesn't eat you is really working out for Hong Kong.

 

[kevin1025]

Chances are, Trump didn't even know any of this.

But Kellyanne Conway said he was fully briefed on the matter! We must believe her!

Spoiler

You're absolutely correct.

 

[Benq]

Yes it is dumb we can't call Taiwan by name directly, but as long as Taiwan is fine, does it matter what we call them?

Does it matter to the Taiwanese? What do they want to be called?

 

[Timeaisis]

Exactly what do you want us to do? Fight China?

Stop being so intentionally naive.

If this was a policy choice then we can look at the merits of doing this. The larger issue is because he is an idiot, this was not driven by policy but a mistake driven by idiocy.

These responses encapsulate this thread nicely. Every response to whether or not Taiwan should be recognized are met with deflection and hyperbole along with calling the poster and or Trump an idiot (which he may well be, in this case). However, you all continue to not answer the actual question that is brought up many times over because it's inconvenient.

If you think Taiwan is independent, why do you think it shouldn't be recognized by the US president elect?

 

[Kid Heart]

Does it matter to the Taiwanese? What do they want to be called?

The one true China. Needless to say good luck getting that to happen

 

[royalan]

Yes, let's care more about helping China save 'face' than being a symbol for democratic values in the world. This argument that 'oh but you don't understand, China really really cares about (x)' is getting old. Let's be real: this was a phone call - a courtesy, not a policy. And he's not President until inauguration day.

I dislike Trump as much as anyone, but the modern Chinese government is worse. It's a morally awful Han ethno-dictatorship with just enough nukes to believe it can bully the world. The US should be supportive of China's neighbours, and not bend over to accommodate the communist party's every loony anxiety.

Didn't try to make the argument that China really cares about anything. But China has its interests and, regardless of whatever the US stance on Taiwan and One China diplomacy is, you approach these matters carefully.

I suppose the more direct question is, do you support China acting more aggressively toward Taiwan over the perceived slight of this phone call? Do you support the US getting pulled into a more direct conflict with China? Do you think these sorts of decisions should be made by our official government and under the full consult of our intelligence institutions, and not be spurred by the whim of our dumbass president elect who won't even attend intelligence briefings, and only took the call to fan his ego?

What you're suggesting amounts to bullying tactics. Good on Trump for not bowing to China! USA USA USA! But that's not diplomacy works, and that's ESPECIALLY not how diplomacy works with another superpower. For fuck's sake, this is how wars start.

If you're going to be a bully, know bullying 101. You bully those significantly smaller than you. You don't bully kids big enough to hit you back.

 

[Atraveller]

The one true China. Needless to say good luck getting that to happen

Uh no. Do you even know anything about Taiwan?

Does it matter to the Taiwanese? What do they want to be called?

Duh. We couldn't use our official name Republic of China, we couldn't use Taiwan either, because China won't let us.

 

[Davilmar]

These responses encapsulate this thread nicely. Every response to whether or not Taiwan should be recognized are met with deflection and hyperbole along with calling the poster and or Trump an idiot (which he may well be, in this case). However, you all continue to not answer the actual question that is brought up many times over because it's inconvenient.

If you think Taiwan is independent, why do you think it shouldn't be recognized by the US president elect?

This question has been answered repeatedly in this thread. A recognition of Taiwanese independence would infuriate the People's Republic of China, would could potentially lead them to escalate their island building in the South China Sea, cut off all economic and travel to Taiwan, or even potentially push for a trade war. This does not even consider how Taiwan would respond, as they would be facing the brunt of the attack. If Taiwan actually declares independence, I fully expect Chinese bombardment and eventual invasion. China has it explicitly in its Constitution to declare war on Taiwan if it declared independence. Everything is about maintaining a balance and keeping stability. Talking about "democracy" is a rather hollow stump to go on when dealing with people who don't give a damn about it, and follow a belief based on hundreds of years of history and culture.

 

[bob_arctor]

If you think Taiwan is independent, why do you think it shouldn't be recognized by the US president elect?

But hasn't this been answered already? If it was that simple, there'd be no need for diplomacy at all. It's a process, a long and complicated one, and it isn't helped by random phone calls that only antagonize the side that can really fuck over Taiwan. Trump has no plan here, no moral impetus. He will not beat the drum of Taiwanese independence.

 

[Kid Heart]

Uh no. Do you even know anything about Taiwan?

Does it really matter whether I specify Republic of China instead of just China? Taiwan wants people to know they are China regardless of how I wrote the name. You are arguing semantics.

Also, Yes, I spent my time studying a course on Chinese economics which involved discussing the history between the two. Thanks for checking though.

 

[luoapp]

In the midst of all this fretting about China and about the US, I feel like this thread is sorely lacking from the perspective of Taiwan and its people.

(Not as a mockery of the above post), but I actually feel in this thread and in western media in general, there is an even greater lacking of the voice from normal Chinese people. There are seemingly only two voices out of China, the government propaganda or the dissidents. Yet you've never heard from the normal Chinese people, especially when they genuinely agree with the government, which will be inevitably labelled as "brainwashed". Taiwan issue is among them.

The matter is quite simple actually, from the perspective of Chinese people, most will say no to secession, and majority is willing to fight a war (no matter who the opponents are) for it. A considerable number of people in the military ( from soldiers to officers) even welcome it, and 100% will go without hesitation. The strategy of the Chinese government has been taking during the past decade (mainly during Ma Ying-jeou's presidency in Taiwan) is deemed too soft by Chinese people, after little progress was made towards unification. The Communist Party has total control of the country, yet, it is not inconceivable the Party will be overthrown if they let Taiwan go independent. This was true 30yr ago, this is truer now China is a almost a superpower.

Taiwan issue is so much more about "face". It's almost insulting since it implies Chinese government and people don't understand the economic and strategic importance of Taiwan, and the consequence of its independence. Really, all it takes is to look at the map.

Independence is more than the people want to leave, just look at what Canada did after failed Quebec referendum. And if the voice of Taiwanese people should be heard, then ignoring 1.3 billion people is a bigger mistake.

 

[tuxfool]

If you think Taiwan is independent, why do you think it shouldn't be recognized by the US president elect?

Why do you keep asking that question? It has already been answered multiple times in this thread, and even in direct response to you.

 

[ultratruman]

You might be right in that it doesn't matter whether the apparent lack of care is real or kayfabe, but I don't think that really changes my point. I think the consequences of the President acting like he doesn't care to know what's going on before he does a thing are undesirable. It's a bad uncertainty to inject into foreign policy and it is likely to exacerbate tensions.

Sometimes a measure of uncertainty is useful in foreign policy. It's frightening because we're not used to it, but there are many incidents of president's using their volatility to get what they want.

Khrushchev lost his game of chicken with Kennedy's Cuban military blockade because he really believed the US was crazy enough to go to war. During the Vietnam war, the North Vietnamese were petrified to re-invade the South because they believed 'madman' Nixon really would return to full-scale war. They waited until Nixon resigned to break the peace deal. Khalid Sheik Mohammed said in an interview Al-Qaeda was stunned by how Bush 43 treated the 9/11 attack as an act of war instead of a law enforcement issue. The speed with which they invaded Afghanistan afterwards prevented them from executing more attacks.

As for Donald, one of the foremost experts on Russian security matters believes Trump's instability could actually end Putin favourite game of poking the west, and expecting us to behave like adults in response. Where Putin largely affects his egoistic macho persona, Trump has always wanted to be the big man. He even said before that he would order his troops to shoot down Russian planes that deliberately antagonise US warships: "you gotta shoot those suckers!" I believe was the quote.

Obviously the whole tweeting thing and crass displays of ignorance are painful for everyone, but it's not necessarily true that a volatile US president is always a bad thing.

What you're suggesting amounts to bullying tactics. Good on Trump for not bowing to China! USA USA USA! But that's not diplomacy works, and that's ESPECIALLY not how diplomacy works with another superpower. For fuck's sake, this is how wars start.

If you're going to be a bully, know bullying 101. You bully those significantly smaller than you. You don't bully kids big enough to hit you back.

There is nothing 'bullying' about having a phone call with the democratically elected leader of Taiwan, and you're severely over-estimating China's ability to 'hit' the US and not get wrecked in the process. We should not let China's insane neurosis get in the way of treating the Taiwanese people with a modicum of dignity, however much bigger China is. That's not the way the United States is supposed to behave, and it doesn't work in the long term.

 

[Atraveller]

Does it really matter whether I specify Republic of China instead of just China? Taiwan wants people to know they are China regardless of how I wrote the name. You are arguing semantics.

Also, Yes, I spent my time studying a course on Chinese economics which involved discussing the history between the two. Thanks for checking though.

Yes it matters, because the idea of One China was imposed by the Chinese, and RoC being THE China hasn't been our stance for decades.

And I live here, throwing your college course at me is laughable.

 

[pigeon]

Sometimes a measure of uncertainty is useful in foreign policy. It's frightening because we're not used to it, but there are many incidents of president's using their volatility to get what they want.

Khrushchev lost his game of chicken with Kennedy's Cuban military blockade because he really believed the US was crazy enough to go to war.

And in the process we very nearly DID go to war and destroy the entire world.

Being unpredictable has risks as well as benefits. The risks are less likely, but they're much worse when they happen.

We are actually used to madman theory because the GOP has been deploying it for a while now, just domestically with the debt ceiling and government shutdowns, etc. The easiest way to plausibly present yourself as crazy is to elect crazy people.

We have now done that for the entire country.