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[PantherLotus]

What exactly are you expecting from your real estate salesman turned President? Also is it kind of working?

Are you remotely interested in a rational discussion about the severity of his actions here? Do you understand what will happen if he continues to do this? Are you interested in a sincere discussion at all? It doesn't seem like you are either remotely rational or sincere and there's a word for that.

 

[PaulCRose]

So let's recognize liberal democracies only when it's convenient, is that it? That's y'all's definition of diplomacy?

Stop being so intentionally naive.

 

[philz]

Are you remotely interested in a rational discussion about the severity of his actions here? Do you understand what will happen if he continues to do this? Are you interested in a sincere discussion at all? It doesn't seem like you are either remotely rational or sincere and there's a word for that.

Are you asking what will happen if he continues to take phone calls from foreign heads of state?

 

[GuyKazama]

China: "Shenanigans!"

 

[Joe]

Are you asking what will happen if he continues to take phone calls from foreign heads of state?

Ohhhh you're being intentionally obtuse. That's actually kind of a relief.

 

[sant]

All it is going to take is a weak President for China to zerg rush Taiwan

 

[Chuck Norris]

Over this, China can fuck off

 

[Compsiox]

Good.

Talking to Taiwan shouldn't be a big deal in the first place.

.

 

[philz]

Are you remotely interested in a rational discussion about the severity of his actions here? Do you understand what will happen if he continues to do this? Are you interested in a sincere discussion at all? It doesn't seem like you are either remotely rational or sincere and there's a word for that.

What, pray tell, will happen if he continues? What I do know is that Taiwan has been getting shafted for decades on the global stage because of the western world's fear of an authoritarian regime throwing a pride tantrum. Maybe it's time for a change.

 

[chillybright]

So Tsai called him.

Not too early to get covered by other crazy US election news.

Not too late so he is still just president-elect.

Nice timing, Tsai. Shenanigans indeed.

 

[PaulCRose]

What, pray tell, will happen if he continues? What I do know is that Taiwan has been getting shafted for decades on the global stage because of the western world's fear of an authoritarian regime throwing a pride tantrum. Maybe it's time for a change.

Like China invading Taiwan? I'll take the status quo.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

It's a hundred times more likely that Trump accepted the call because he's interested in doing business with Taiwan.

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3031091

Either he's stunningly incompetent, or this is a massive conflict of interest.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

So let's recognize liberal democracies only when it's convenient, is that it? That's y'all's definition of diplomacy?

If this was a policy choice then we can look at the merits of doing this. The larger issue is because he is an idiot, this was not driven by policy but a mistake driven by idiocy.

 

[philz]

Like China invading Taiwan? I'll take the status quo.

Afraid much? If Taiwan declared independence tomorrow do you honestly think China would go to war with the US?

 

[SporeCrawler]

I found the situation taiwan is in very sad and problematic.

They were one of the first colonies japan established and suffered under their rule until the kokumintang rolled in (jiang kaishek) who lost against the communists in mainland china. After that they were an ally to the US but completely abandoned after the US determined mainland china is more important. They even lost membership to the UN and are not recognized as a state by some countries.

In that sense I do not condemn Trump for trying to establish relations with Taiwan

 

[sant]

Afraid much? If Taiwan declared independence tomorrow do you honestly think China would go to war with the US?

China would invade Taiwan if they thought the US would back down. If that happens, you can kiss superpower status goodbye.

 

[chillybright]

Afraid much? If Taiwan declared independence tomorrow do you honestly think China would go to war with the US?

lol if China invades Taiwan after the declaration do you honestly think US would go to war with China?

 

[chadskin]

So Tsai called him.

Not too early to get covered by other crazy US election news.

Not too late so he is still just president-elect.

Nice timing, Tsai. Shenanigans indeed.

"Of course both sides agreed ahead of time before making contact," Huang told Reuters, when asked about Trump's Twitter message stating that it was Tsai who called him.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-taiwan-call-idUSKBN13S02N

 

[philz]

lol if China invades Taiwan after the declaration do you honestly think US would go to war with China?

Under the regime we're about to have. Sure.

 

[vonStirlitz]

I think this is perfectly acceptable.

Firstly, on the basic premise of independent democratic national sovereignty:

(a) the US president-elect is within his rights to chat on the phone with a democratically elected president of an independent sovereign nation.

(b) the US president-elect is the elected president of the US people, and his role is to represent the United States, not the foreign policy objectives of other nations such as the PRC.

Secondly, on the foreign policy position:

(a) the whole "One China" principle and the notion of the US kowtowing to PRC internal political discourse for over three decades is confused and contrary to a number of political principles (sovereignty, democracy, human rights, self-affirmation) and the US demeans itself by complying, notwithstanding that it is a diplomatic 'nice to have'.

(b) the PRC are getting cocky now they see the US in a perceived state of relative decline. A lot of SE Asian countries are starting to look to the PRC given the US' disengagement. It serves the US well by stirring up shit like this (not that it is stirring up shit, as see point 1(a) above), as it pushes the PRC to take positions, and it flusters them, as it is a static control-led model of governance that finds it difficult to cope with change. It also points to all sorts of conflict and contradiction in their internal political discourse and external relations.

Frankly, this call is pure win.

 

[Chichikov]

I found the situation taiwan is in very sad and problematic.

They were one of the first colonies japan established and suffered under their rule until the kokumintang rolled in (jiang kaishek) who lost against the communists in mainland china. After that they were an ally to the US but completely abandoned after the US determined mainland china is more important. They even lost membership to the UN and are not recognized as a state by some countries.

In that sense I do not condemn Trump for trying to establish relations with Taiwan

Even if the US wants to change its stance on the issue of Taiwan (and I'm not sure that it makes a whole lot of sense to anyone) this is not the way to go about it. Even if your goal is total independence (and no major political party in Taiwan supports that) this is counter-productive.

p.s.
Painting the KMT as saviors of the Taiwanese indigenous people is revisionist history.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Under the regime we're about to have. Sure.

The US is not going to go to war with China over some other country.

The American people would not accept it and your current President would never do it... For free.

 

[Ishan]

I get what you're saying. Trump is and has been a wild card throughout his candidacy. Should we believe that him taking a phone call from Taiwan has further implications? Should we write it off as him not knowing wtf? I'm no Trump fan and have severe reservations about his presidency, but as someone that gets paid to help large companies navigate large dollar negotiations I cannot think of a better opening volley in our trade discussions with China than reaffirming ties with Taiwan.

I can see this point of view definitely . My concern is is this a unknown mistake or a deliberate strategy to that end .

This is not some Art of the Deal bullshit. China has read Trump's fictional bootstrap story and aren't playing his childish games.

Agree here that trump business dealing don't translate exactly but we've all seen that he is a great salesman to his audience so that matters. Wrong or right .

So this is china's public response. I'm curious what their 'private calls' to trump tower from china were like as well.

probably less polite?

Probably nothing. Stable non dictator Countries don't shift alliegiances or deals overnight . And china is communist not dictatorial .

What, pray tell, will happen if he continues? What I do know is that Taiwan has been getting shafted for decades on the global stage because of the western world's fear of an authoritarian regime throwing a pride tantrum. Maybe it's time for a change.

Here I disagree unless the us is also wiling to take a hit . From a business perspective taking a hit for a short while is worth the long term gain but that's how politics and countries work short term losses get magnified and counteracted eg obamacare

Afraid much? If Taiwan declared independence tomorrow do you honestly think China would go to war with the US?

Chine would blockage us would too . Increased military spending both sides .not here is the kicker . Trump got elected on elevating middle class displaced workers that situation would be bad for him . The situation would be worse for china but as china is not democratic they are in a far better position to impose that loss on their population .

In general in history autocratic regimes take the short term hit and call the bluff . The way democracies win is long term with enthusiasm and a sense of righteousness . And forget foreign countries even half of America won't be on board with trump when it comes to righteousness . Essentially the problem is he's eroding Americas perceived status as a good benevolent superpower .


Edit my personal opinion is the world will wait 4 years and see if he keeps up this wackiness and see if Americans vote him out . If not And the world perceives America moves to a super populist nationalist agendas well all try to form deals without us involvement .americas authority on a soft moral sense lessens . And every human knows no one likes the big guy who won't compromise and tries bullying .

Having said all this I'm not convinced this is the long term (10-20 years) direction America is taking . If I'm wrong well the rest of the world will eventually stand up and if not which I think is the case this will be a blimp and well all move ahead together .

Btw I disagree with trump yes there is no global anthem no global citizenship no global nothing if you ignore were all globally humans . That's a big if in my mind .

 

[philz]

The US is not going to go to war with China over some other country.

The American people would not accept it and your current President would never do it... For free.

I would argue that China is not going to go to war with the US over Taiwan first. God willing we're both right.

 

[Ishan]

I would argue that China is not going to go to war with the US over Taiwan first. God willing we're both right.

No nuclear power is going to war with another nuclear power ... Just isn't going to happen . Unless some idiot initiates it without thought . And if that happens well I'm retreating to a cave in the hamalayas and becoming a tibetian monk .

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

I would argue that China is not going to go to war with the US over Taiwan first. God willing we're both right.

The way I see it Taiwan means different things to both countries and it's way more important to China than it is to the US.

 

[KingBroly]

I would argue that China is not going to go to war with the US over Taiwan first. God willing we're both right.

I don't think we elected a man who wants War. Foreign Policy is not Trump's forte, and I believe that he believes a war would get in the way of rebuilding the country the way he thinks it should.

 

[WoodWERD]

Foreign Minister Wang Yi on Saturday called the phone call between Taiwan leader Tsai Ing-Wen and the US president-elect Donald Trump a "petty action" by Taiwan, and said the call will "not at all" change the one-China situation in the international community.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2016-12/03/content_27559077.htm

 

[Ishan]

I don't think we elected a man who wants War. Foreign Policy is not Trump's forte, and I believe that he believes a war would get in the way of rebuilding the country the way he thinks it should.

My impression is he doest but he doesn't think things thru or is knowledgeable enough at this point . I thank Obama for doing what he can to bring him upto speed .and ivanka seems to have a sensible head on her shoulders too and influences him .

 

[brian577]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2016-12/03/content_27559077.htm

You're about 4 hours late.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225887486&postcount=507

 

[Matt]

I think this is perfectly acceptable.

Firstly, on the basic premise of independent democratic national sovereignty:

(a) the US president-elect is within his rights to chat on the phone with a democratically elected president of an independent sovereign nation.

(b) the US president-elect is the elected president of the US people, and his role is to represent the United States, not the foreign policy objectives of other nations such as the PRC.

Secondly, on the foreign policy position:

(a) the whole "One China" principle and the notion of the US kowtowing to PRC internal political discourse for over three decades is confused and contrary to a number of political principles (sovereignty, democracy, human rights, self-affirmation) and the US demeans itself by complying, notwithstanding that it is a diplomatic 'nice to have'.

(b) the PRC are getting cocky now they see the US in a perceived state of relative decline. A lot of SE Asian countries are starting to look to the PRC given the US' disengagement. It serves the US well by stirring up shit like this (not that it is stirring up shit, as see point 1(a) above), as it pushes the PRC to take positions, and it flusters them, as it is a static control-led model of governance that finds it difficult to cope with change. It also points to all sorts of conflict and contradiction in their internal political discourse and external relations.

Frankly, this call is pure win.

The United States government does NOT recognize Taiwan as an "independent sovereign nation", and even if you or Trump disagrees with that, this is not the way to approach change.

This was amateurish nonsense of the type we will be seeing a lot more of.

 

[PdotMichael]

Trump will be played like a fiddle in the international world of politics.

 

[KingBroly]

My impression is he doest but he doesn't think things thru or is knowledgeable enough at this point . I thank Obama for doing what he can to bring him upto speed .and ivanka seems to have a sensible head on her shoulders too and influences him .

I think Trump thinks things through a lot. He seems really ahead of the game on quite a few things (while behind on others, notably military tactics). However, he doesn't want War with Russia or China. He knows that's massive shit waiting to happen and he wants that shit quelled. To me, while we have massive differences with Russia, I believe we can become pretty good allies if we work towards a common goal, one goal at a time. First stop: Bury ISIS.

 

[The Chosen One]

People aren't freaking out because Trump is altering foreign policy.

People are freaking out because Trump is inexperienced in geopolitics and he is making foreign policy pivots against what is arguably the most important bilateral relationship in the world without consulting the White House, the State Department, US government briefings, or foreign allies, and also without a long-term plan.

This.

What worries me is that he has no idea what he's doing. This wasn't some calculated or strategic move to assert Taiwan's independence. It was pure ignorance by Trump and the people around him. Calls into question their competence to handle foreign policy going forward. When you're the commander in chief of the most powerful nation in the world, you can't conduct foreign policy ad-hoc or start riffing aimlessly in calls with foreign leaders.

Eventually these foreign leaders will take Trump at his word and start taking drastic actions, or they will start ignoring Trump's words which will completely erode our credibility in foreign affairs.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

One of the few mistakes hes made I do not mind. Our policy with Taiwan is counterproductive with how China continually attempts to undermine them. Taiwan has always been an ardent ally and they deserve better.

The only reason Taiwan is an ally is because it isn't on good terms with China.

 

[El-Suave]

It feels weird to agree with Trump but If there's one tiny hope about his presidency, it's that in some few cases like this, common sense might win over nonsensical diplomatic practices. Every industrial nation has relations to Taiwan, but they need to veil those relations formaly despite everybody knowing they exist? I'm all for normalization of relationships wherever it's possible, just like between the US and Cuba, and this might be a step towards that. It's progress in my opinion and denying it flat out is idiotic. There are other areas where Trump's presidency will set back America and many instances we can be seriously upset about, but this is not one of them.

 

[FyreWulff]

It feels weird to agree with Trump but If there's one tiny hope about his presidency, it's that in some few cases like this, common sense might win over nonsensical diplomatic practices. Every industrial nation has relations to Taiwan, but they need to veil those relations formaly despite everybody knowing they exist? I'm all for normalization of relationships wherever it's possible, just like between the US and Cuba, and this might be a step towards that. It's progress in my opinion and denying it flat out is idiotic. There are other areas where Trump's presidency will set back America and many instances we can be seriously upset about, but this is not one of them.

But.. we have an open trade and other relationship with Taiwan. It's not like Cuba at all.

It's like having your cake and eating it too but INSISTING that the frosting on it all must be sparkle green because you know it'll piss off your neighbor.

 

[Atraveller]

I found the situation taiwan is in very sad and problematic.

They were one of the first colonies japan established and suffered under their rule until the kokumintang rolled in (jiang kaishek) who lost against the communists in mainland china. After that they were an ally to the US but completely abandoned after the US determined mainland china is more important. They even lost membership to the UN and are not recognized as a state by some countries.

In that sense I do not condemn Trump for trying to establish relations with Taiwan

KMT's rule is also a blooding one, read up on 228 incident and the following White Terror.

 

[chillybright]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-taiwan-call-idUSKBN13S02N

Still not clear who initiated this conversation.

It would probably still come from Tsai and Taiwan. They know his incompetence in foreign policy and played him big way. Why would Trump suddenly decide to talk to Tsai? If it was for business it is much better to keep status quo, not escalating the situation.

 

[El-Suave]

But.. we have an open trade and other relationship with Taiwan. It's not like Cuba at all.

It's like having your cake and eating it too but INSISTING that the frosting on it all must be sparkle green because you know it'll piss off your neighbor.

The wide ranging relationships in many areas make this taboo even more stupid in my opinion. I doubt Trump has a plan and there is a strategy behind this, so I probably shouldn't praise him for making progress. But to me it's a shame that ideologic diplomatic theatrics like this survived eight years under Obama.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Just yesterday Xi met Henry Kissinger to discuss China-U.S. ties

More like Henry Kissmyass amirite?

 

[Supast4r]

I'm team Taiwan anyway. China is so insecure they won't even allow their media to refer to them as Taiwan. "Chinese Taipei" or bust. Leave Taiwan alone, China and all those islands you think you're entitled to in the South China sea

Posts like this just don't understand how powerful China is or that they are an ally to us in most cases. China's legitimacy as a government to its people is based on three things: keep their economy growing jobs at a disgusting rate, plan to get keep Taiwan as "one China," and take those islands with oil away from Japan. If they break those promises to their people, then they will fear unrest. There is a reason why China goes out of its way to acquire resources to feed this agenda.

 

[Supast4r]

It feels weird to agree with Trump but If there's one tiny hope about his presidency, it's that in some few cases like this, common sense might win over nonsensical diplomatic practices. Every industrial nation has relations to Taiwan, but they need to veil those relations formaly despite everybody knowing they exist? I'm all for normalization of relationships wherever it's possible, just like between the US and Cuba, and this might be a step towards that. It's progress in my opinion and denying it flat out is idiotic. There are other areas where Trump's presidency will set back America and many instances we can be seriously upset about, but this is not one of them.

The issue is that the US didn't go around saying that we own Cuba. China believes that it owns Taiwan.

 

[Joe]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-38194371

Chinese media says the Chinese government has lodged a formal complaint against Washington and also:

China urged the US "to cautiously, properly handle Taiwan issue to avoid unnecessary disturbance to Sino-US relations".

IMO there is close to a 0% chance that the Trump administration will be dealing with this issue "cautiously" or "properly" when they are in office.

 

[Bronx-Man]

"Actually, the president being an immense dumbass when it comes to foreign policy is a good thing"

I can always rely on you for the hot takes, GAF.

 

[Chichikov]

Posts like this just don't understand how powerful China is or that they are an ally to us in most cases. China's legitimacy as a government to its people is based on three things: keep their economy growing jobs at a disgusting rate, plan to get keep Taiwan as "one China," and take those islands with oil away from Japan. If they break those promises to their people, then they will fear unrest. There is a reason why China goes out of its way to acquire resources to feed this agenda.

Only the first one really matters (and I guess the 3rd one insofar as it helps them achieve their first goal).
The idea the China will lose its legitimacy with its people if they change their official stance on Taiwan is silly, especially since they pretty much did in almost all ways but the symbolic one.

I think it's just a case of China hanging on to a policy position that no longer makes sense, most governments are susceptible to that, just see how long the US kept its stupid policy regarding Cuba.
If they're concerned about anything in regard of Taiwan is that it's going to embolden separatist movement in Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Hong Kong.

 

[Ishan]

I think Trump thinks things through a lot. He seems really ahead of the game on quite a few things (while behind on others, notably military tactics). However, he doesn't want War with Russia or China. He knows that's massive shit waiting to happen and he wants that shit quelled. To me, while we have massive differences with Russia, I believe we can become pretty good allies if we work towards a common goal, one goal at a time. First stop: Bury ISIS.

Isis is but a blimp on the world stage. That pseudo idiotic state would be squashed in 2 seconds if any major country decided to comit fully . Terrorism however would continue but Isis is for all purposes insignificant when compared to almost any country which has a reasonable military say top 30 worldwide

Edit most foreign policy is not dictated by a 4 year or even a 8 year view but decades long building ... This is a nuance which trump doesn't get l...blow it all up yeah sure save money resources now will come back to bite you in the ass 20 years down the line ... Part of the reason ppl prefer sensible ppl in govt is you look long term not just immediate ....but go ahead I'm not american so I'd be neutral enough to watch the us lose it's super power status eroded within the next 100 years

 

[PdotMichael]

Taiwan exports 40% of its goods to China and HK.
I'm not sure why some people want to see a conflict between those three countries.

It's like people on GAF knows so much about China and Taiwan as Trump.

 

[Ishan]

Taiwan exports 40% of its goods to China and HK.
I'm not sure why some people want to see a conflict between those three countries.

It's like people on GAF knows so much about China and Taiwan as Trump.

Because let's just blow it all up without understanding situations .... Or something ...

 

[Kathian]

Should point out many Russians feel Ukraine is part of Russia. Trump is the President and can alter foreign policy it's really the offices primary function.

Taiwan is a complex and sensitive subject though. I think Trump feels he doesn't care about things like tariffs with China as it helps his policy. He likely lacks understanding of state influence. For example America has staunchly fought (and killed) to stop foreign influence across the Americas.