Atraveller
Banned
A few decades ago, maybe. It hasn't been our official stance for a long time.
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Trump risks major diplomatic dispute with China after speaking with Taiwan's prez
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andythinkpad
Member
If you believe in globalization, China is America's most important ally hehe.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Distractions.
the fact that this is playing so well even outside of trump's base is actually concerning
people are okay with throwing out decades of carefully weaved diplomacy for some meaningless emotional vindication against china... why. china is awful but this is the definition of "not worth it"
people are okay with throwing out decades of carefully weaved diplomacy for some meaningless emotional vindication against china... why. china is awful but this is the definition of "not worth it"
It's not like countries have begun wars over the recognition of sovereign territory in the past.
Oh wait.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
That's the thing. Taiwan's not a nation.
It's not recognized by most countries because the Republic of China has a competing (and clearly wrong) claim to the whole of China, and the People's Republic of China has a competing (and arguably wrong) claim to the island/province if Taiwan.
Taiwanese sovereignty is it's own completely fraught matter. It's very likely China wouldn't allow it to happen -- they've threatened military action against RoC if it ever does, and many people in Taiwan don't even want it to happen.
Taiwanese re-integration with China is also extremely unlikely because most people in Taiwan don't want that either. Also the Hong Kong / Macao thing didn't go so well.
So the uncomfortable status quo has held for a long time.
The Taiwan situation has been especially messy because Chinese leaders don't want to lose face, but everyone benefits from trade with both RoC and PRoC. There are even deep economic and trade ties between RoC and PRoC despite the standoff.
The US solution decades ago was to cut off all official diplomatic relations, but to leave a backdoor to relations. This has worked and been a stable solution until the RoC and PRoC can decide on the fate of their political status and the whole "one China" thing that is the official stance of both the PRoC and RoC.
Like this is very serious because it's one of the most likely hotspots for a war in east asia that nobody wants.
Yeah.
Officially, the United States has ships protecting China from... China.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AivEQmfPpk
I disagree with Trump on a bunch of shit, but not this. Seriously this is a good thing, China needs to know we support Taiwan and Tibet, and the US hasn't shown that.
I have no way of confirming this, but I have a sneaking suspicion if Obama did this, there'd be a much different reaction.
That said, Trump's economic policy with regards to China is a disaster. That's what I'm scared about, not China throwing a hissy fit overy something stupid.
I have no way of confirming this, but I have a sneaking suspicion if Obama did this, there'd be a much different reaction.
That said, Trump's economic policy with regards to China is a disaster. That's what I'm scared about, not China throwing a hissy fit overy something stupid.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Obama wouldn't do something like this. It is completely meaningless to contemplate what the reaction would be because it isn't something that would actually happen.
This is probably more serious than any bluster about economics. Recognition of territory and empty trade threats are two different things entirely.
What does "show support" even mean and even do in this case? It's a gesture that shows the man is a dangerous idiot and you can bet China is salivating on how to manipulate him.
If Obama had done something like this, it'd be done after a lot of talks, research, and deals because the man isn't an idiot and doesn't have investment in Taiwan real estate.
Carpe Carnim
Member
That you think this action is "stupid" scares the shit out of people who've spent the better part of their careers understanding and building the delicate balance that allows ROC and PRoC to exist without military warfare.
This shit's going to get people killed and waste a lot of resources so some anonymous dunderheads can feel better about themselves.
Dude, he invited the Dali Lama to the white house. You don't think China got pissed at that too?
China ain't gonna do shit. Foreign policy with "allies" like China is a dick waving contest anyhow. They won't be happy, but they're not gonna mess with their #1 trading partner.
No one is going to die over a phone call. China will be mad, talk some shit, then let it go.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
smokeandmirrors
Banned
so many people in this thread have the same level of understanding of diplomacy as cheeto mussolini does.
Bubba_Sparks
Member
I'm trying to find an analogy that suits this situation and I can't. The best thing I can think of is the Japanese bombing Pear Harbour in an attempt to destroy the Pacific Fleet while at the same time believing the US would back down or give up. Most people look at that line of thought today and see it as completely out of touch.
Maybe someone else can think of something more accurate.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
smokeandmirrors
Banned
True, I have a sneaking suspicion it's about his buisness, and that's very wrong if true. Still, speaking to Taiwan in and of itself is fine. People are freaking out about that, and it's really not that big a deal.
Well that just an absurd level of convoluted logic that is incomprehensible.
I'm well aware of what they both are and how they feel about eachother. What I'm asking is why"officially" communicating with a government is bad when we've been unofficially communicating with then for years. It's not like they don't exist because we are pretending they don't.
People aren't freaking out over a fucking phone call. It's about Trumps history thus far. He tends to double down when he's being attacked and he's not campaigning anymore he's about to become the leader of the free world. What does doubling down look like in that context? We. Don't. Know. And it scares us.
yeah p much
Nobody's going to war over a phone call but it's a concerning (to put it lightly) pattern of behavior.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Not a mistake. He knew what he was doing. And knew the exact message he wanted to send China in doing so.
Not a fan of China throwing a fit over Taiwan so good for Taiwan to speak to him. Other than that I'm 'meh' on Trump.
Not a fan of China throwing a fit over Taiwan so good for Taiwan to speak to him. Other than that I'm 'meh' on Trump.
call_kotaku
Member
I don't see what this is showing to China, other than that Trump has either no regard or no interest in foreign policy.
If Trump had shocked us all with a reasoned, nuanced statement on what he did and the intended implications of it, this'd be a different thread.
Because if Obama had had the call, I'm betting the explanation would have been more than "we sell weapons why wouldn't I let them stroke my ego?"
It': not just that he had the call, but that every indicator he's giving is that he doesn't understand the implications of it any more than a random on the street would. Trump has no background, no experience, and if he is going to be an actual president he needs to give some impression he makes moves understanding the full weight of his position. A glib tweet is exactly what not to do, because it indicates he maybe didn't bother to think through what this would represent.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Because China doesn't want anyone to communicate at an official level with the "rebels." It's a major point of pride for their government, and crucial to having official relations with China.
Do American just not learn anything about history in school? Like, that whole thing that Nixon did opening relations with China? That major normalization of relations between two world powers?
We should not be curtailing who we speak to due to the whims of the Chinese government.
Seriously fuck the Chinese government. their propaganda arms are so the same level of North Korea directly threatening and alluding to military against those who enter the south china sea is just one example.
Seriously fuck the Chinese government. their propaganda arms are so the same level of North Korea directly threatening and alluding to military against those who enter the south china sea is just one example.
Because taiwan's already a powderkeg and China's leadership loves its nationalism. They're also a vital economic powerhouse with an authoritarian government that can move in ways against us we can't.
As long as a status quo is maintained as official policy, backchannels are available and flexible. This is what diplomacy is about, it doesn't matter what people think but instead of what their actions are signalling.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
No, the history books in my high school never even covered world war 1.
Seductivpancakes
Member
Sticking it to the man!
Bolivar687
Banned
Everyone needs to grow up, be adults, and admit that Taiwan really is its own country, especially the people living there afraid to do so because of the missiles being pointed at them. It has its own legal codes, its own tax system, its own military and China has none of these things in Taiwan. Independence has nothing to do with it because the Peoples Republic of China has never, in all of its history, ever controlled the island of Taiwan. I have zero respect for world organizations like the UN who refuse to provide representation and it's in our interests on so many levels to restore full diplomatic relations.
Taiwanese positions on interstrait relations are very diverse, not everyone there thinks they're really the legitimate government of China. Regardless of what anyone thinks, wants, or advocates, these are two separate autonomous de facto republics and should be treated as such.
Taiwanese positions on interstrait relations are very diverse, not everyone there thinks they're really the legitimate government of China. Regardless of what anyone thinks, wants, or advocates, these are two separate autonomous de facto republics and should be treated as such.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
If more people in general knew about the delicacies of leading a world superpower we wouldn't have a reality TV star parking his ass in the White House in a month and a half.
RPGCrazied
Member
I wouldn't actually call him a star just cause he was on TV firing people.
uhhh the world is really complicated stuff. It's hard to enough to follow whats happening locally, let along nationally and internationally.
Is it really that surprising that many americans don't know shit about taiwan?
I'm sure that they would if the US hadn't armed them to the teeth, an issue that China should be far more angry about than the President Elect accepting a congratulatory telephone call.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
He talked to the democratically elected representative of a nation of self-identifying Taiwanese people, that is being held economically and militarily hostage, on the phone. Hate Trump to death, but this should not be a big issue.
CoffeeJanitor
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bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
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