I'm from Belgium myself and I have no idea why such an overwhelming majority voted yes. I think there'll be some research/inquiry in the coming days on why that percentage's so high.
Turkish Referendum |OT| ...With a Thunderous Applause
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I'm from Belgium myself and I have no idea why such an overwhelming majority voted yes. I think there'll be some research/inquiry in the coming days on why that percentage's so high.
In my experience, their parents maybe, but young people (some who've never even been to turkey) have been completely brainwashed into the whole "great Turkey, bad West" narrative that Erdogan and his ilk have been spewing for years. They even go do meetings in Europe now to convince them.
People who were born here and will spend all their life here, and yet idealize the country of their parents and constantly shit on their own.
This percentage doesn't shock me in the slightest.
ClosingADoor
Member
Holland was just under 50% turnout.
Palette Swap
Member
Much like Brexit, and any vote that has such major implications, it seems crazy to me that you wouldn't need some kind of super-majority to move forward.
paradise_circus
Member
AFAIK, only 500 000 people out of 1 400 000 turkish citizens in germany voted.
However, it almost looks like that the yes outcome would be heavily caused by these european electors. People who only knows turkey from summer vacations.
As a dutch, i am completely baffled by it..also dutch turks, remind you they are dutch citizens born and raised here. Are celebrating in the streets, here in the netherlands. It is utterly insane seeing this.
Unknown Soldier
Member
It would probably be more likely to become the Islamic Republic of Turkey
I'm not having "fun". EU accession talks are pretty much dead, we can expect some very rough banter between the EU and Turkey in the coming months and years. The result is the result. That's what the majority of the Turkish people voted for. I didn't want that outcome but I can't change it either.
I wonder how all the YES voters will react once they realise this changes nothing about Turkey's economic decline.
Someone edited his pic on his wikipedia page and replaced it with a cockroach to. But that change got fixed to.
Roberto Larcos
Member
This vote enables it.
My family asked me today who I was going to vote for in the upcoming French presidential election.
Between Trump in the US, Putin in Russia, Brexit, and now Erdogan being officially endorsed as a tyrant, how can I vote for anyone but whoever (read: Macron) has the highest probability of winning against Le Pen?
It's not just about not letting her win. It's about not letting her win this time of all times. If she wins at this crucial point, our region of the world is really going down the shitter, isn't it?
Well, I guess an extremist winning in Germany would be the final nail in the coffin, but still.
Between Trump in the US, Putin in Russia, Brexit, and now Erdogan being officially endorsed as a tyrant, how can I vote for anyone but whoever (read: Macron) has the highest probability of winning against Le Pen?
It's not just about not letting her win. It's about not letting her win this time of all times. If she wins at this crucial point, our region of the world is really going down the shitter, isn't it?
Well, I guess an extremist winning in Germany would be the final nail in the coffin, but still.
Ros8105
Member
I meant the "well done" in a well done fucking up your country, kind of way.
They're also giving him billions to deal with his own refugee crisis, and since GDP is declining and inflation is creeping upwards he can't exactly tell them to fuck off.
I'm scared Fillon is somehow still getting through.
Ah, sorry about that.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
"don't feel so sure about it b/c brexit trump erdogan" post in 3, 2, 1..
Yeah it's not gonna happen.
edit goddamnit someone fix that posting bug
michaelius
Banned
Nothing surprising about that. Belgium seems to be the heart of European Islamism.
I will be shocked if Sweden doesn't join the list of countries with above 50% yes vote.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Only 60% of French voters are "certain they will go vote". Don't fuck it up, France.
For all its faults, that's why constitutional monarchies are the best form of stable government. Democracy, but with clear and well-established limits and checks on power, prevents these people taking power. Over half of the governments are republics and all are hopelessly corrupt. If royals get too far out of line, revolution comes and they are the first up against the wall.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Same, glad I visited at least once before it turned to shit.
What's going on in the world? How can bullshit right-wing populist propaganda be so effective in the age of information and the highest ratio of education in history? This is so horribly depressing.
Doubt it, but I wanna ensure that doesn't happen. Fillon is probably the candidate she has the most chance to win against, with Macron the least. I'm debating whether to straight-up vote for Macron from the first round because we really need to make sure Le Pen is up against some stiff competition.
All I know is I'm doing my duty. The Le Pen victory nightmare will live or die by the vote turnout.
I'll vote for the weakest candidate ( the 1% guy ) because I don't want Macron/Fillon/LePen/Mélenchon at the head of my country but I'll make sure to stop Le Pen or Mélenchon if they pass first tour.
It's what I (and most of my family) will do. Can't stomach the thought of a Fillon/Le Pen second round.
Edit: God what's with GAF's display being all fucked up lately
Give LePen a little Poutou of death
I have a Russian friend here in Germany who loves how Putin is showing how tough he is and how he is "bringing Russia back as serious world power" and how he showes the "West" that they can't do what they want. Would he ever move back to Russia? "Hell no" he said. He only goes back to vacation there a couple of times.
We had some heated discussions.
Saw a coverage about turks in Berlin here and some had similar views about Erdogan (strong leader > strong country, opposing the "west" etc. ) .
BlastProcessing
Member
Ideally it would be something that involved over 60% approval and approval by other government bodies as well. Judicial and/or legislative. There are many was to structure it, but the point is that major structural changes to a government should be difficult and slow.
Democracy is as much an acknowledgment of the importance of dissensus as it is of consensus. Simple majority rule is de facto mob rule when it's unchecked.
I know it's been a rough few months but it hasn't all been doom and gloom; Trump's won, yes, but the courts are keeping him in check and he hasn't been able to repeal the ACA so millions keep their healthcare; meanwhile a federal court has ruled in an important case that discrimination against employees based on sexual orientation is illegal under the CRA so Trump rescinding those laws is a futile in the long run.
In Europe Wilders grossly underperformed expectations, the right lost the presidency in Austria and it's a four way fight for the presidency in France. It's not all shite.
People are being dragged into the 21st century and they just weren't ready for it.
Erdogan winning was a given since he'd almost certainly rigged it - you can still vote Trump out in 3 years time.
ClosingADoor
Member
Over here, major changes like this would be done by changing the constitution, which need:
1) Majority approval of the senate and congress (50% + 1)
2) New elections.
3) Then a super majority of 2/3 in both new senate and congress.
So yeah, I agree that things like this need a bit more then a simple referendum.
LegendofJoe
Member
Because there are many, many people that are being left behind in a globalized world. This is causing them to radicalize behind leaders like Erdogan and Trump who promise to restore their way of life. And in an age of forced radical change brought upon by the twin forces of technological progress and climate change it's going to get worse before it gets better.
It's time to strap ourselves in and prepare for a fight that is likely to consume the rest of our lives.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
In order to hold a referendum, most countries require you to have legislative assent - i.e., David Cameron couldn't just announce there was going to be an EU referendum, he had to introduce a bill for a referendum into parliament, which was then passed by parliament. This is also the case in Turkey. The judiciary's 'assent' is not required because the point of the judiciary is that they are not law-makers, the only judicial assent you need is that the way in which the referendum is carried out is not in breach of existing laws.
But even if we ignore that and focus on your main point: if you think that constitutional changes should always require supermajorities, if I go to the Irish gay marriage referendum thread, I'll find you complaining about how there wasn't a clear enough mandate, will I? Because I'm pretty sure I won't find you doing that.
Let's be clear: this is a terrible result, and it's an undemocratic result. But that's because Erdogan effectively 'rigged' the election by neutering the opposition. Suggesting an undemocratic measure as a response by making referendums favour the past over the present, especially when the past is normally, if not always, more sexist, racist, and classist, is not the right thing to do.
He specifically mentions referendums about "major changes to the structure of a government".
I also don't think anything needed to be changed in the Irish Constitution to allow same sex marriage.
YourMaster
Member
I'm baffled that there are people baffled by it. The failure to integrate newcomers into society, and the fact that with each new generation these newcomers become on average more hostile to their host country, women, jews, gays and even democracy itself is one of the defining problems of our generation, and one of the key issues to handle going forward. How can you even function in society without somehow noticing this?
Great point.
In the case of Turkey though, I think he used people's fears (terrorists, kurds). Religion (Islam) also is one of the reasons he won.
Still, it is maddening to see Turks vote for a dictator when they see first hand what a dictatorship can do just next to them (Syria).
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-fourth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
Even if we restrict this to changes to the structure of government specifically, rather than constitutionally entrenched structure:
Suppose you lived in a state which allows for legal slavery, and this slavery is instrumental to the way that society (including the government) functions. Abolishing slavery requires a constitutional amendment. Would you argue that it is right and just to require a supermajority in order to abolish slavery rather than just a majority?
Spaced Harrier
Member
People outside the country shouldn't be voting on something like this I've always believed.
There are moves in Ireland to start accepting external votes on certain elections. Currently we don't have any mechanism for our emigrants to vote. Which is highly unusual. With the extent of dispora it could have a huge impact if the ball gets rolling on this.
My Turkish friends on facebook all voted against this idiot as far as I can see. they must be crushed. :/
There are moves in Ireland to start accepting external votes on certain elections. Currently we don't have any mechanism for our emigrants to vote. Which is highly unusual. With the extent of dispora it could have a huge impact if the ball gets rolling on this.
My Turkish friends on facebook all voted against this idiot as far as I can see. they must be crushed. :/
It's sarcasm. No matter what Erdogan has said or done in the past, the EU didn't stop the talks. That's the joke here. Although tbf the European Parliament did say the talks should be stopped but lol Parloament.
lolwut?
Anyway i am kinda glad i am leaving Turkey next month tho kinda bitter i am moving to London post-Brexit lol
Spaced Harrier
Member
I wouldn't bother man.
I'd say adding an amendment without touching anything else is a bit different than changing something that already exists.
Apparently some people even thought a referendum should not be necessary since the constitution never specified marriage or family as being between a man and a woman.
I never voiced an opinion about the rest so whatever.
I don't think these hypotheticals are very productive.
A main reason behind a super-majority is to make government change more slowly which has side effects.
Doesn't recent polling suggest that a Le Pen/Mélanchon runoff is a real possibility though? Seems at this point you have the accept voting for Macron in the first round to prevent that.
Anyway, condolences to all of Turk-GAF. We welcome you here with open arms in US/UK fucked-up-our-country-with-a-stupid-vote-GAF. Saving a fourth seat here for France.
Spaced Harrier
Member
It also means it's enshrined in the constitution and can't be removed without a referendum.
So if the whims of some future government take gay marriage in its sights they can do fuck all about it without also generating popular support.
Unlike in the US where the Supreme Court will be planted with conservative judges for the next Four years and could end up in any place.
Whats the problem? They wont enter the EU but its a little treat to secure the deals that have been made.
I am fine with this tbh since Turkey is not going to join no matter what.
Let's not forget the Greek and Italian referendum too. Although Greece seems to have gotten to its senses and the Italian referendum was a bit more complicated. But still. On paper every referendum went bad. Maybe that's a sign. You know.
As long as you don't mind these pointless talks then sure, why stop them now. They are a way to influence Erdogan, on paper.
Yeah it's absolutely a good thing it's here now, but someone could have argued that it didn't need one and that there was nothing unconstitutional to begin with.
It's hardly comparable to Erdogan changing about 20 existing articles to allow for massive changes to the structure of a country.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yes. These 'side effects' are almost overwhelmingly a worse situation to be poor, a woman, or a minority in, since making the government change more slowly is defending the past generation's decision against that of the present, and the past generation is normally (if not always) more sexist, racist, and classist than the present generation.
chromatic9
Member
America has over a 100k who claim to be Turkish and perhaps up to 500k estimated who has some trace. That's barely a drop for a country the size of a continent with over 325 million.
In the UK we have old colonial ties and Turkish here seem completely British and may have spread out over a long time although we have a similar number to other European countries. Europe has 10 million Turkish including many tiny countries. It'd be interesting to see how rapid mainland Europe's immigration was, as larger numbers over a short time only results in large enclaves which don't help. Lower numbers over a longer time means you have to assimilate and not stick to some little colony type area.
Understandably tourism to Turkey has dropped massively at least from Europe.
Turkey has already started to change though and have adapted their hotels for rich muslim guests with divided pools for male and female and are doing well.
In the UK we have old colonial ties and Turkish here seem completely British and may have spread out over a long time although we have a similar number to other European countries. Europe has 10 million Turkish including many tiny countries. It'd be interesting to see how rapid mainland Europe's immigration was, as larger numbers over a short time only results in large enclaves which don't help. Lower numbers over a longer time means you have to assimilate and not stick to some little colony type area.
Understandably tourism to Turkey has dropped massively at least from Europe.
Turkey has already started to change though and have adapted their hotels for rich muslim guests with divided pools for male and female and are doing well.
Katzenjammer
Member
I'm really frustrated right now. Does anyone have experience with leaving the citizenship here? Is it a painless process? Can I do it from my nearest embassy even if it's not in my country? Feel free to PM me with info, thanks.
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