Give it 10 years... all this does is continue the decline of secular and democratic Turkey into an authoritarian and theocratic islamic state. EU accession is all but dead. This won't help their economic decline which will only fuel more hardliners especially as Kurds are on a breakthrough in Iraq driving away ISIS for good. After the Netherlands and Germany spat, Turkey is also pretty much without any moral diplomacy now.
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Turkish Referendum |OT| ...With a Thunderous Applause
- Thread starter Diancecht
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Give it 10 years... all this does is continue the decline of secular and democratic Turkey into an authoritarian and theocratic islamic state. EU accession is all but dead. This won't help their economic decline which will only fuel more hardliners especially as Kurds are on a breakthrough in Iraq driving away ISIS for good. After the Netherlands and Germany spat, Turkey is also pretty much without any moral diplomacy now.
Stereogatari
Banned
Islamic lifestyle will never be forced by law on Turkish population. That's not what AKP and Erdogan are about. They just want to remain in power. Religion is a tool to stay there and fool the masses.
Turkey should be federally split into 3 States. Mediterranean and Aegean coasts and Thrace as Atatürk's Turkey. South-East as Kurds. And rest of Anatolia as Erdogan's Turkey.
Turkey should be federally split into 3 States. Mediterranean and Aegean coasts and Thrace as Atatürk's Turkey. South-East as Kurds. And rest of Anatolia as Erdogan's Turkey.
SolidusDave
Member
So shameful that almost two thirds of the Turks in Germany voted for these ridiculous reforms.
Holy shit, just move to Turkey. Cowardice vote with no consequences on your own life but just some nationalist dick waving to give your 'home' country a 'strong' leadership.
But this shows even more why it will be important to do a better job with immigration this time around with the refugees.
Holy shit, just move to Turkey. Cowardice vote with no consequences on your own life but just some nationalist dick waving to give your 'home' country a 'strong' leadership.
But this shows even more why it will be important to do a better job with immigration this time around with the refugees.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
This is an apt description of what's happened to Turkey. RIP
It doesn't have to be with law but can be inserted by social pressure. More and more people are showing less tolerance lately. You can see plenty of hate crime, attacks on secular people in here and it is increasing.
Erdoğan doesn't want to give south east to kurds due to petrol route. That's why he was probing in to northen Iraq and Syria. And he would never ever give up Istanbul for the sake of Anatolia. There isn't anything left in Anatolia we even import wheat now lol.
Stereogatari
Banned
The major cities that voted No will never have Islam forced on it in that way.
Yep thats it. In Denmark 61% voted yes. And Its all the young ones when you read news article comments. They have no clue and buy the Hitl...eh Erdogan propaganda. Meanwhile their parents are crying. I feel bad for Turkey.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
And when the president with all the power makes the army full of loyal supporters and then passes a referendum to officially make Islam the state religion punishable by prison and turns the military, police, and militias after dissenters? People really gonna put their lives on the line?
This stuff is happening now because certain people are realizing that while some dissenters will complain loudly, push comes to shove, they ain't gonna do shit about it.
BlastProcessing
Member
Is the game now that we can each just name threads of the past and critique each other for not posting in them? That seems like a silly game.
And I do have a problem with the Irish Amendment even if I didn't post in the thread at the time. It's pretty simple. I think that the text of the Amendment is good and I support that aspect of it, but if it can be created so simply, then it can be removed so simply. Or replaced with something truly heinous. I don't like that volatility at all. Not when it comes to Constitutions.
In the Turkey's case, if your Constitution can be so radically changed so quickly and easily, what power did it ever really have? What power can it have in the future as Erdogan continues to reform the country in his own image?
I disagree with your assertion that my stance is undemocratic. Democracy is not a simple majority rule. It is a structure that allows us to self govern in a way that protects from the tyranny of the majority. A Constitution has to be stronger than a strongman Dictator or else it will eventually fail.
It will start as a series of "protections", for example anti blaphemy laws.
I tend to agree with Stereo. Erdogan should not be underestimated, but all he really wants is power. The danger for Turkey is less about becoming an Islamic theocracy than in descending into Putinism where the AKP higher-ups become a clique who wield power for self-enrichment. Dangerous for dissenters, but not so much for people who keep their head down and mind their own business, which is still a tragic decline for a once-vibrant Turkey.
I believe we already discovered the solution for that: wait for them to act the fool, then invade and occupy them.
And I'm extremely glad the US does not have national referendums.
I see it more as a low pass filter. An unstable government controlled by the majority/plurality can and has been devastating to minorities. It doesn't necessarily presume that the older rules are better, but that the better ideas will rise up.
We've seen lately that progress isn't linear. Big pushes for nationalism and racism today come from the younger generations. That's not to say I believe older generations are always right, but that the younger aren't always right. In the big picture there's usually progress as time moves on, but smaller time-frames have a lot of regression.
If we take social progress we can imagine a lot of regression from referendums on say banning same-sex marriage because of the initial backlash. We kinda see this in Russia (though obviously not through a referendum). In minority rights, if we presume the Crimean referendum was valid it could show the Russian majority voting for something detrimental to the Crimean (and Ukrainian) minority.
I don't believe a 66% or whatever majority automatically fixes this, but I believe by slowing it down we can avoid most shifts in the political climate from having permanent effects.
This completely side steps IMO the main issue which is that minorities have very little say in the current systems (in US and Turkey), but that would require a big change
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's been 20 years that people keep saying "give it 10 years" and yet nothing of the sort happens.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
They will absolutely have Islam forced on them eventually. That's been the pattern in pretty much every Islamic country.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
If allowing young girl with hijab going to the university is equal "islamic theocracy", so yes...
I don't see any progress of a theocracy going on in Turkey. A slow shift toward authoritarianism and populism, yes.
Even the most radical islamic parties like Saadet are not pushing for sharia in Turkey.
It's kinda hard for the AKP to get much past 50% of the vote in anything(i.e. referendums and elections). The AKP always fails to get above 50% of the vote in parliamentary elections.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Meh. Only a complete fool who utterly ignores history would think giving more power to their country leader is a good idea. "Left behind", fuck that noise. I have zero respect for these people.
Unknown Soldier
Member
*Arrogant Smirk*
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's arrogant to think you have to be dumb to desire a dictator? Ok.
Unknown Soldier
Member
It's arrogant to think you know how everyone in the world thinks and that the way you think is inherently superior.
Sidewinder
Member
Have fun with your glorious leader, what a sad day.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol, arrogant to think that dictatorships are bad and that failing to understand something so basic is stupid. Please.
Just showed some voices from the streets in Berlin, one of them "Erdogan is the best leader in the world, if you ask people on the streets who the president/leader of usa or Germany is, nobody knows but everyone knows erdogan"
Smh.
Analyst believe his death sentence announcement is a bluff and he will backtrack now to smooth relations with Germany / EU...
Let's see.
Smh.
Analyst believe his death sentence announcement is a bluff and he will backtrack now to smooth relations with Germany / EU...
Let's see.
whyamihere
Banned
I would? I do not believe that any constitutional changes (or Brexit-esque changes) should require a majority vote, even those I agree with. I would set the bar much higher because stuff like this can happen!
Yes, you will find my celebrating the gay marriage amendment in Ireland, a law that passed with a 62.07% threshold. Florida requires 60% of a vote to change its constitution -- that's always been a good limit that balances not being overtly draconian in the % needed while also requiring a higher-than-50% threshold to make actual changes to your constitution.
Every time I see interviews with Turks living in Germany who love Erdogan, they sound just like Trump fans.
Like very little knowledge about what is actually going on, and tons of assumptions that are far off from reality.
It's only arrogant if it is incorrect, which this isn't.
Stereogatari
Banned
A lot of village/rural Turks are quite innocent kind hearted people, who are manipulated by Erdogan/AKP. It's not a Black and White situation.
AKP brutes though, who usually are from urban areas know exactly what they are doing.
Frozenprince
Banned
The close win is intentional I think. To give it a slightly larger air of "legitimacy".
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Yep, my view as well.
Stereogatari
Banned
Gonna be more than a lost decade :/
Most of the posters here that are acting like an armchair analyst really doesn't know anything about Turkey, not only that they are posting quite ignorant stuff.
Erdoğan has "won" this election with an incredibly one sided propaganda. Think about it even though all TV channels are working for him, using all the resources of the country (such as carrying masses to squares with busses), by breaking the law and showing he is clearly supporting one side in the elections (in constitution it's clearly stated that the president should be neutral), with all the ballot rigging he was only able to get %51 of the votes. He has won but if you watched him talking last night you'd see the lack of confidence in his eyes. He has lost the 3 biggest cities; İstanbul, Ankara, İzmir. İzmir was a given but not only that whole Aegean region and Meditterrenean showed a strong support for No. AKP also has a secret opposition within, there is a big paranoia going on in the party because it's highly possible that some of the ministers were involved with coup that happened a few months ago, so it may cause a big crack within the party sooner or later.
Additionally Turkey's dynamics are much more different than other Islamic countries for it to become an Islamic state, even among Yes voters there is a noticeable crowd that wouldn't agree with that life style. There is also 10 million people who didn't vote for this election and keep in mind if votes from abroad wasn't included the outcome of the election would change.
Opposition needs new faces, Turkish people has always had a weak spot for "strong" looking leaders. Kılıçdaroğlu is an honest and smart guy but he doesn't have the aggressive tone that masses applause. Bahçeli, the biggest reason AKP is as strong as it is today has divided MHP voters into two camps, if he didn't bring up and support this presidential system we would be talking about something different today. There are pretty good politicians who has the brain and the confidence to rule these parties, or even start a new political party. Only problem is these old farts blocking their way, with the new system if one of them can manage to create one, it can be a seriously strong opposition against Erdoğan.
A lot of stuff will happen until the next election so it's going to be interesting. Personally I'm disappointed by the other half of my country but also am aware that they got this result with an unfair campaign. I advice people who are interested in politics to look into Turkish history. It really is quite interesting, especially from a western point of view.
Erdoğan has "won" this election with an incredibly one sided propaganda. Think about it even though all TV channels are working for him, using all the resources of the country (such as carrying masses to squares with busses), by breaking the law and showing he is clearly supporting one side in the elections (in constitution it's clearly stated that the president should be neutral), with all the ballot rigging he was only able to get %51 of the votes. He has won but if you watched him talking last night you'd see the lack of confidence in his eyes. He has lost the 3 biggest cities; İstanbul, Ankara, İzmir. İzmir was a given but not only that whole Aegean region and Meditterrenean showed a strong support for No. AKP also has a secret opposition within, there is a big paranoia going on in the party because it's highly possible that some of the ministers were involved with coup that happened a few months ago, so it may cause a big crack within the party sooner or later.
Additionally Turkey's dynamics are much more different than other Islamic countries for it to become an Islamic state, even among Yes voters there is a noticeable crowd that wouldn't agree with that life style. There is also 10 million people who didn't vote for this election and keep in mind if votes from abroad wasn't included the outcome of the election would change.
Opposition needs new faces, Turkish people has always had a weak spot for "strong" looking leaders. Kılıçdaroğlu is an honest and smart guy but he doesn't have the aggressive tone that masses applause. Bahçeli, the biggest reason AKP is as strong as it is today has divided MHP voters into two camps, if he didn't bring up and support this presidential system we would be talking about something different today. There are pretty good politicians who has the brain and the confidence to rule these parties, or even start a new political party. Only problem is these old farts blocking their way, with the new system if one of them can manage to create one, it can be a seriously strong opposition against Erdoğan.
A lot of stuff will happen until the next election so it's going to be interesting. Personally I'm disappointed by the other half of my country but also am aware that they got this result with an unfair campaign. I advice people who are interested in politics to look into Turkish history. It really is quite interesting, especially from a western point of view.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Very convenient you've now decided 60% rather than a supermajority to avoid the Irish example. To pick another case, then presumably you therefore think that the EU should never have been founded?
Frankfurter
Member
It's not that easy actually. There are around ~3.5 million people of Turkish decent in Germany, only ~450k voted for Erdogan. The majority aren't Turkish citizens anymore, while out of the ~1.5 million that are Turkish citizens, ~50% didn't vote at all and around 450k voted for Erdogan).
The Associated Press‏Verifizierter Account @AP
https://twitter.com/AP/status/853908331827802112
https://twitter.com/AP/status/853908331827802112
I have heard yesterday at Tagesschau.de, that the electoral center accepted self made ballots...
cm osi
Member
well then, why don't they move to turkey if they love him so much
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Democracy!
SomedayTheFire
Member
Am I missing something here? Whyamihere never mentioned supermajority and blast processing mentioned 60% in their first post in this chain.
You are aware that the coup was led by an even more radical Islamist group right?
Funyarinpa
Member
The excuse given for ballots without the official stamp was that many voting centers failed to adhere to regulations and so cancelling 2.5 million votes wouldn't "reflect the will of the people"
and idiots fucking supported this by saying that "why should a mistake by election officials invalidate my vote?"
The military coup was organized (there's a consensus about this) Fetö, an extremely Islamic organization. It could have been even worse if they came into power.
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