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[Cabaratier]

The excuse given for ballots without the official stamp was that many voting centers failed to adhere to regulations and so cancelling 2.5 million votes wouldn't "reflect the will of the people"

and idiots fucking supported this by saying that "why should a mistake by election officials invalidate my vote?"


The military coup was organized (there's a consensus about this) Fetö, an extremely Islamic organization. It could have been even worse if they came into power.

Really? I've kept thinking that the Gulen/Feto thing was bullshit.

 

[Xando]

The military coup was organized (there's a consensus about this) Fetö, an extremely Islamic organization. It could have been even worse if they came into power.

Not if you believe the leader of the german foreign intelligence service

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...d-fuer-radikalen-kurs-erdogans-a-1139271.html


"Turkey tried on all levels to convince us. They didn't succeed"

 

[skny]

Some of my Erdogan fanatic relatives are not as festive as they were in previous elections, they all expected to win by a landslide including Erdogan. I mean look at Erdogan's speech from yesterday and compare it to his previous ones. His biggest card is keeping the big cities and he knows he lost them.

 

[SolidusDave]

It's not that easy actually. There are around ~3.5 million people of Turkish decent in Germany, only ~450k voted for Erdogan. The majority aren't Turkish citizens anymore, while out of the ~1.5 million that are Turkish citizens, ~50% didn't vote at all and around 450k voted for Erdogan).

I guess your point is that we should not condemn all Turks in Germany. I'm directly addressing only the 1.4 million that were allowed to vote. But that's still 450k people plus another 700 thousand who could have voted no in order to prevent this from happening but decided to sit it out...
Though I'm pretty sure there must be a majority support for Erdogan in the whole 3.5 million German Turkish community too, as otherwise it would be hard to explain why Turkish voters in different countries voted a clear No.

They also don't have the excuse of being bombarded by state propaganda.
Those 1.4 million are 2-3% of the total Turkish voters so this close result burns even more knowing that those half a million German Yes votes literally enabled this dipshit's wet power dreams. Which goes against everything Germany stands for politically.

Which also demonstrate how Germany completely failed at integrating the Turkish community. That's why it's embarrassing for ALL of Germany.

 

[His Majesty]

I don't think you can blame the people who decided to not participate in the politics of a country they do not live in. More than anything I find that praiseworthy.

 

[oti]

Some of my Erdogan fanatic relatives are not as festive as they were in previous elections, they all expected to win by a landslide including Erdogan. I mean look at Erdogan's speech from yesterday and compare it to his previous ones. His biggest card is keeping the big cities and he knows he lost them.

Can Dündar calls it the beginning of the end of Erdogan because of this.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Really? I've kept thinking that the Gulen/Feto thing was bullshit.

Not if you believe the leader of the german foreign intelligence service

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...d-fuer-radikalen-kurs-erdogans-a-1139271.html


"Turkey tried on all levels to convince us. They didn't succeed"

Don't know what the view is abroad, I wouldn't fully deny the possibility that Erdoğan himself was involved, but there's a consensus within the country.

 

[His Majesty]

Seems like the concept of dual citizenship will be on the political agenda in Belgium the next week(s).

 

[Xando]

Don't know what the view is abroad, I wouldn't fully deny the possibility that Erdoğan himself was involved, but there's a consensus within the country.

Of course there is a consensus. It's not like there is a free press or a transparent independent investigation.

Any foreign official you ask will tell you it's bogus. Hence why gulen is still in the US and nowhere near being extradited

 

[SolidusDave]

I don't think you can blame the people who decided to not participate in the politics of a country they do not live in. More than anything I find that praiseworthy.

In general I agree that none of them should have had a say in this in the first place. Especially as it's a referendum.

But if I'm allowed to vote against the dictatorship-in-the-making of any country, you bet I would do it. Even more so if I have family there.

Nothing commendable about not voting when you know the ones with the shitty opinion will vote.
That's how you enable stuff like this and Trump in close binary elections or you strengthen extreme parties by not diluting their opinions into oblivion via a high voter turnout.

 

[Frankfurter]

I guess your point is that we should not condemn all Turks in Germany. I'm directly addressing only the 1.4 million that were allowed to vote. But that's still 450k people plus another 700 thousand who could have voted no in order to prevent this from happening but decided to sit it out...
Though I'm pretty sure there must be a majority support for Erdogan in the whole 3.5 million German Turkish community too, as otherwise it would be hard to explain why Turkish voters in different countries voted a clear No.

They also don't have the excuse of being bombarded by state propaganda.
Those 1.4 million are 2-3% of the total Turkish voters so this close result burns even more knowing that those half a million German Yes votes literally enabled this dipshit's wet power dreams. Which goes against everything Germany stands for politically.

I could see those other people simply not being all that interested in what Turkey does/decides (which would, funnily enough, point to these people being very well integrated). I'd say that was a bad idea overall, because those ~750k that didn't vote could have changed the result quite significantly. But there is definitely more to this story than "60%+ of the Turks in Germany voted for Erdogan".

 

[Jackpot]

EU observers label the referendum as "unfair and unfree".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...position-parties-demand-recount-a7686876.html

 

[SolidusDave]

I could see those other people simply not being all that interested in what Turkey does/decides (which would, funnily enough, point to these people being very well integrated). I'd say that was a bad idea overall, because those ~750k that didn't vote could have changed the result quite significantly. But there is definitely more to this story than "60%+ of the Turks in Germany voted for Erdogan".

There's definitely more to this story, namely us sucking at integration of larger minorities.
Some reasons given by German-Turkish Yes voters are that they voted basically against Germany because non-Turkish Germans are critical of Erdogan. What the fuck.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

There's definitely more to this story, namely us sucking at integration of larger minorities.
Some reasons given by German-Turkish Yes voters are that they voted basically against Germany because non-Turkish Germans are critical of Erdogan. What the fuck.

Its more in this... a lot of these people are feeling not well treated. Which is true to some degree.

 

[Funyarinpa]

EU observers label the referendum as "unfair and unfree".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...position-parties-demand-recount-a7686876.html

How is the view of the sinking ship from up there?

 

[Lucumo]

There's definitely more to this story, namely us sucking at integration of larger minorities.
Some reasons given by German-Turkish Yes voters are that they voted basically against Germany because non-Turkish Germans are critical of Erdogan. What the fuck.

One just has to shake his head at this level of stupidity. It's not like other people have to suffer because of them (now).

 

[nampad]

There's definitely more to this story, namely us sucking at integration of larger minorities.
Some reasons given by German-Turkish Yes voters are that they voted basically against Germany because non-Turkish Germans are critical of Erdogan. What the fuck.

The German government failed integtating them on many levels but as someone whose family flew to Germany as well, I put most of the blame on the immigrants themselves.
Many just don't try enough.

 

[Neo C.]

Seems like the concept of dual citizenship will be on the political agenda in Belgium the next week(s).

I know the current political climate is against it, but it would be really stupid to forbid dual citizenship.

 

[Funyarinpa]

There's definitely more to this story, namely us sucking at integration of larger minorities.
Some reasons given by German-Turkish Yes voters are that they voted basically against Germany because non-Turkish Germans are critical of Erdogan. What the fuck.

"Europe wants No, so vote Yes!" was a really common tactic inside the country as well.

 

[Joni]

Seems like Belgian politicians don't like that Belgian Turks are so heavily in favor of Erdogan. They are thinking about eliminating the possibility of double nationality if one of the two nationalities is non-EU.

 

[Xater]

Its more in this... a lot of these people are feeling not well treated. Which is true to some degree.

I don't see how that is going to change with this vote.

 

[SgtCobra]

Seems like Belgian politicians don't like that Belgian Turks are so heavily in favor of Erdogan. They are thinking about eliminating the possibility of double nationality if one of the two nationalities is non-EU.

This should've been done looong ago.

 

[Ros8105]

I'm sure the people in Turkey love the EU Turks.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

I don't see how that is going to change with this vote.

Sadly, yes. But this goes booth ways at this point.

 

[amar212]

I'm sure the people in Turkey love the EU Turks.

Is this even explainable?

 

[Zatoth]

Seems like Belgian politicians don't like that Belgian Turks are so heavily in favor of Erdogan. They are thinking about eliminating the possibility of double nationality if one of the two nationalities is non-EU.

Dual-citizenship is already not allowed in Austria. Still lots of Turks have both. And it is not possible to control it because Turkey does not share their information about it.

 

[dakun]

Is this even explainable?

people not understanding the value of a free democracy vs. people who understand it

 

[Chittagong]

Congrats on the sex dictatorship!

 

[Joni]

Is this even explainable?

It is calling not having to live with the consequences. See rich white people voting Trump.

 

[jakonovski]

Is this even explainable?

Something about living in a western democracy makes people take it all for granted and feel entitled to act childishly.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Is this even explainable?

Turkish government propaganda is effective in Europe. We let it happen and now we see the results.

 

[cameron]

EU observers label the referendum as "unfair and unfree".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...position-parties-demand-recount-a7686876.html

The EU sent a delegation of 20 impartial observers to ensure the referendum complied with European standards.

One of the delegates, Stefan Schennach, joined Turkish opposition in expressing serious concerns about the outcome, which he condemned as “unfair and unfree”.

This is fine. European standards are trash. Erdogan's standards are better.

It will start as a series of "protections", for example anti blaphemy laws.

Or changes to the school curriculum. Politico EU:"Turkey’s new curriculum: More Erdoğan, more Islam"

ISTANBUL — With President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s plans for greater powers firmly on track, Turkey’s government has set about shaping the country’s future outside the halls of parliament.

Last month, as parliamentarians brawled over — and finally voted for — constitutional changes designed to establish Erdoğan’s long-awaited presidential system, the ministry of education published a draft curriculum for the new school year.

Some of the changes appeared innocuous: Children will be taught about renowned Turkish and Muslim scientists alongside Einstein and Newton, for instance. But secular-leaning Turks were enraged at the plan to remove classes on evolution and the country’s founding fathers, accusing the government of injecting education with its conservative-religious ideology.

Turkey’s secular-religious rift is as old as the republic itself. Until Erdoğan’s Justice and Development Party (AKP) rose to power in 2002, the two sides’ fortunes were reversed: Following Atatürk’s westernizing reforms in the 1920s, the secular elite ruled the country while pious citizens were marginalized.

In the early years of AKP rule, Erdoğan seemed to bridge the divide; both liberals and conservatives lauded his reversal of the headscarf ban in universities, which had barred generations of women from higher education. But on both sides, feelings have hardened since. Rhetoric like ministers declaring a woman’s job to be motherhood, incidents like an incensed mob storming a Radiohead party during Ramadan and government policies such as steep tax hikes for alcohol have contributed to a sense of besiegement among secular Turks.

It’s also not the first time that education has emerged as a battleground. The government’s decision to allow young girls to wear headscarves at school and Erdoğan’s call for mandatory Ottoman-Turkish language classes were met with condemnation from secularists. In 2014, parents took to the streets in protest against education reforms that enrolled as many as 40,000 pupils in state-run religious institutions, called imam-hatip schools, whether they liked it or not.

Imam-hatip schools were established in 1923 to train imams, a measure to impose state control over religion in accordance with Atatürk’s secular vision for Turkey. Today, they teach students the national curriculum in addition to religious classes. Since the AKP’s election success in 2002, enrollment in these schools has surged from 63,000 to one million. Erdoğan, who has expressed the wish to raise a “pious generation,” attended an imam-hatip school himself.

For years, Turkey’s curriculum has remained largely untouched by the growing role of religion in public life. Now, however, secular-minded parents fret over the education ministry’s plan to teach pupils about the concept of jihad and its proposed removal of evolution from science classes.

But this is fine. Erdogan's Turkey is a unique flower in that it totally doesn't need an executive independent judiciary to prevent shitty conservative/religious policies encroaching into areas where it shouldn't.

 

[Zyae]

Don't know what the view is abroad, I wouldn't fully deny the possibility that Erdoğan himself was involved, but there's a consensus within the country.

As if that means anything.

 

[Jotaka]

I'm sure the people in Turkey love the EU Turks.

People under oppressive regimes knows is bad idea to give to much power to a MF.

 

[Occam]

"But secular-leaning Turks were enraged at the plan to remove classes on evolution and the country's founding fathers, accusing the government of injecting education with its conservative-religious ideology."

Same as the successful long-term strategy of US-Republicans. It's how you breed Trump and Erdogan voters: by keeping them ignorant and making them believe in sky-fairies instead of understanding reality.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Is this even explainable?

Integration has very little to do with active government policies aiming to integrate people, and is mostly down to what percentage of the population an immigrant group is. The lower the percentage, the more quickly immigrants integrate. The higher the percentage, the more they'll self-segregate and import the attitudes of their home countries.

The other factor is the quality of immigration. Importing well-educated people (like Canada does) seems to lead to better outcomes than importing the Muslim equivalent of redneck Trump supporters.

 

[Chairman Yang]

People under oppressive regimes knows is bad idea to give to much power to a MF.

I wouldn't call the US or UK oppressive regimes (even given recent events). I think the real explanation is what I cited above.

 

[His Majesty]

A very persuasive AKP supporter managed to secure 305/305 yes votes at his polling booth. He was even so kind to enter the polling booth with all voters and defend them from people with malicious intents.

 

[Ros8105]

A very persuasive AKP supporter managed to secure 305/305 yes votes at his polling booth. He was even so kind to enter the polling booth with all voters and defend them from people with malicious intents.

Holy shit, that's insane.

 

[hEist]

A very persuasive AKP supporter managed to secure 305/305 yes votes at his polling booth. He was even so kind to enter the polling booth with all voters and defend them from people with malicious intents.

I hate it, when people don't post source of image, specially with sensitive topics.
Link

 

[AndyD]

It will start as a series of "protections", for example anti blaphemy laws.

Pretty much. Protection and security will be the initial path.

 

[HaloRose]

I am pretty sure we are in the weak men create hard times period

 

[FoxSpirit]

I am pretty sure we are in the weak men create hard times period

Wow, take one facet of reality and declare it THE WHOLE TRUTH.

Like this picture, those hard men created a lot of hard times. Even now, hard men take stable situations and turn them unstable for personal gain. Because they are hard. Hard men are unquestionably great, right?

 

[Funyarinpa]

This is fine. European standards are trash. Erdogan's standards are better.


Or changes to the school curriculum. Politico EU:"Turkey’s new curriculum: More Erdoğan, more Islam"



But this is fine. Erdogan's Turkey is a unique flower in that it totally doesn't need an executive independent judiciary to prevent shitty conservative/religious policies encroaching into areas where it shouldn't.

...

 

[Kerensky]

Wow, take one facet of reality and declare it THE WHOLE TRUTH.

Like this picture, those hard men created a lot of hard times. Even now, hard men take stable situations and turn them unstable for personal gain. Because they are hard. Hard men are unquestionably great, right?

Luxury breeds complacency, people who are numbed by it stop taking their moral duty seriously.

They stop voting on pivotal issues like EU membership and the separation of powers. allowing the misguided, the desperate and the ambitious to vote for them.

 

[Jackpot]

Luxury breeds complacency, people who are numbed by it stop taking their moral duty seriously.

That must be why Africa is enjoying such good times...

 

[Kerensky]

That must be why Africa is enjoying such good times...

In a way, yes!

Africa's chronic famine can be attributed to it's regular and extensive foreign aid intake.

If i were a farmer i would have to take a loan to purchase a plow, crop seeds and the manpower to dig irrigation canals, but that's not a bad thing, because flour and vegetables are valuable in my region and once the harvest is brought in, i will be rolling in cash, pay my debt, and maybe expand the operation next season with more hired villagers to keep the vermin out, pull the weeds out quicker and make a bigger cistern for the dry seasons.

But before the corps even breach the hard sunbaked soil, these planes start darkening the sky!

The area around the village is pelted with bags of rice, nuts and flour! my crop will be worthless now! Now i would have to default, the investing party will make a point never to loan money to Africans again, and i am ruined and worst of all, my people still won't be self-sufficient and will starve after another two years.

And that's how a little luxury can go a long way in ruining a society.

 

[dakun]

I hate it, when people don't post source of image, specially with sensitive topics.
Link

there is so much evidence for manipulation, the results are a joke.

 

[ClosingADoor]

In a way, yes!

Africa's chronic famine can be attributed to it's regular and extensive foreign aid intake.

If i were a farmer i would have to take a loan to purchase a plow, crop seeds and the manpower to dig irrigation canals, but that's not a bad thing, because flour and vegetables are valuable in my region and once the harvest is brought in, i will be rolling in cash, pay my debt, and maybe expand the operation next season with more hired villagers to keep the vermin out, pull the weeds out quicker and make a bigger cistern for the dry seasons.

But before the corps even breach the hard sunbaked soil, these planes start darkening the sky!

https://www.un.org/News/dh/photos/large/2016/February/02-19-2016AirDrop.jpg

The area around the village is pelted with bags of rice, nuts and flour! my crop will be worthless now! Now i would have to default, the investing party will make a point never to loan money to Africans again, and i am ruined and worst of all, my people still won't be self-sufficient and will starve after another two years.

And that's how a little luxury can go a long way in ruining a society.

You really think that we are constantly dropping food in Africa and that is the problem for their farmers? Also, your link about microcredit doesn't apply to this situation.

The problem for Africa is unfair competition and lack of export possibilities to for example the EU.

Also, giving rice to prevent people from dying of hunger is a "luxury" now?

 

[Kerensky]

Also, giving rice to prevent people from dying of hunger is a "luxury" now?

If it disrupts the local market in such a way to even discourage sustenance-farming, then yes. Why work to create a solution if it quite literally comes falling from the sky?