Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Exactly. This isn't on the kid, it's the parents for being shitty people and trying to raise their kids to be just as shitty.
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UK: Couple Remove Son from School Because School Recognises Trans Student
- Thread starter ReplacementPelican
- Start date
Exactly. This isn't on the kid, it's the parents for being shitty people and trying to raise their kids to be just as shitty.
Teach the children not to be discriminatory towards others different to them and, if needs be, relocate them. Theyre the ones with the issue here, not the transgender kid.
As a parent, I can confidently say most kids won't give a single fuck once given the briefest of education on the topic, they are mostly concerned with where their next treat is coming from or how much iPad time they can blag before bed.
Bigotry is not in their DNA, it comes from the parents (shocking I know!)
Bigotry is not in their DNA, it comes from the parents (shocking I know!)
KarneeKarnay
Member
Most children don't find things confusing. They accept it and move on. They don't start asking questions till 8 and up and even then for the most part they will accept the answer.
I find it that the people who say that their kids will be confused, really just don't want to have to deal with their prejudice.
Honest to god I was talking about trans people to a member of the family and she said it was bothering her that trans people are more accepted. I asked why? What were they doing that would really impact her?
I will never forget the response.
"In the forms where you delcare your sex, I will have to spend longer going through it."
Me quite shocked responds.
"So taking an extra minute on a form is too much?"
"It is if it bothers me."
I could not believe it.
I find it that the people who say that their kids will be confused, really just don't want to have to deal with their prejudice.
Honest to god I was talking about trans people to a member of the family and she said it was bothering her that trans people are more accepted. I asked why? What were they doing that would really impact her?
I will never forget the response.
"In the forms where you delcare your sex, I will have to spend longer going through it."
Me quite shocked responds.
"So taking an extra minute on a form is too much?"
"It is if it bothers me."
I could not believe it.
TBH in my experience as a parent 6 year olds only need the briefest of explanations and they're fine. I don't see where any great confusion would come from other than if the parents are unable or unwilling to actually give a clear one.
Obviously in theory (and currently practice) choice is parents but it's hardly a helpful or good choice and the underlying motives cannot help but be questioned. Even if their kid is a bit confused so what? What's the problem exactly?
Obviously in theory (and currently practice) choice is parents but it's hardly a helpful or good choice and the underlying motives cannot help but be questioned. Even if their kid is a bit confused so what? What's the problem exactly?
Why is it absurd? The parents had another kid taken out for the same issue, so its not like it was a one time thing
Charles Brandon
Member
It's absurd if it was just the child making a mistake, it's not absurd if it was deliberate bullying.
ReplacementPelican
Member
Well, the parents said their child got in trouble for that.
You don't know the extent, a lot of people commenting on this seem to have the attitude of believing they accidentally and innocently said 'he' once instead of 'she' but I find this massively unlikely, especially as the parents seem hostile towards trans people and their other child was also in trouble.
It would be odd if their children uniquely had this issue if the punishment is given for one-off, simple mistakes.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
I'd be suspicious of that claim, given that it's the parents making it.
It's not that simple. Their kids are actually bullying the trans kids and I wouldn't faint in astonishment if the parents have been encouraging them. They're not just innocent bystanders.
Fair enough yes, asshat parents probably aren't the most reliable.
JonathanEx
Member
This has been bugging me for the day, mainly as the parents seems to be on a media tour to sprout their bullshit on every TV and Radio show they can fit in to the last 24 hours without any real questioning and painting themselves as victims of discrimination.
I could write out a long and thought-through argument, but I more fancy my reactionary thoughts that I've tried to hold in. Some are more petty than others. Oh who am I kidding they're all petty
I could write out a long and thought-through argument, but I more fancy my reactionary thoughts that I've tried to hold in. Some are more petty than others. Oh who am I kidding they're all petty
- Did the child really have the issue, or was it the parents really? Let's be honest it's the parents and their teaching, particularly if this is the second instance.
- Will they remove their child from school every time there's something they don't understand? Oh I'm sorry photosynthesis is difficult, I don't want to explain, my child is confused SUE THE SCHOOL why would I want to teach them?
- Nice of them to go 'well it is a church school', I'm sure they've pointed out the bits in the Bible which specifically discuss transgender
- Mate if they're scared by a boy in a dress wait til you see Jesus is wearing in most paintings
- Also fuck you for calling them a boy in a dress
- Did anyone have 'It's DNA' on their transphobic bingo card? They mentioned that too so tick that off
- Fuck BBC Radio 4's Today programme for putting them on air with not speaking to anyone with any form of expertise to provide meaningful information, experience or context to this. I mean I'm not surprised but fuck that piece of trash.
I think the article sums that up pretty well. The problem is the parents. The kids are the victims here. How the school or system deals with the parents is what we should be discussing here.
OverBlood 3
Banned
I didn't say it was a religious problem, there are plenty of religious people who aren't bigots.
tonysidaway
Member
Sounds daft, but that's pretty much how we got to the point where even church schools treat transphobic behaviour under their bullying policy in the UK. Even two decades ago, a LGBT preference expressed by a child would have been treated as a pathology and the press would have been, at best, indifferent to the inequity. LGBT advocacy was treated as fringe radicalism, attracting outrage stories about the so-called "loony left." Now it's mainstream Conservative Party policy.
Good progress, overall, but still some people are trying to turn back the clock.
ReplacementPelican
Member
I mean, yeah, its a religious school that's saying 'we need to respect people' and disciplining children for being mean to trans students.
Did anyone click the link?
Did you see those people?
Yeah their kids are "confused"
People should try and teach their kids to get along with anyone and recognise that different is not bad.
unless someone is trying to get them into a van.
But a boy who identifies as a girl, cool, now do your math homework.
Did you see those people?
Yeah their kids are "confused"
People should try and teach their kids to get along with anyone and recognise that different is not bad.
unless someone is trying to get them into a van.
But a boy who identifies as a girl, cool, now do your math homework.
note that "treated equally" here is a substitution for "treated with human dignity" that loses some precision
this line could be used to (attempt to) negatively frame any civil rights campaign and doesn't really actually say anything
can you explain why we cannot treat everyone with human dignity regardless of their gender (or race, or disability, etc.)? since you think its impossible, i'd like to hear why
you're conflating the case of not repeatedly bullying someone with not providing enough physical accommodations
this specific news story has nothing to do with physical accomodations
a more relevant example would be whether it would be possible for someone to *not* go out of their way to insult you for your disability
They are like "these are 6 years old, they need to be protected from confusion, if they see someone as one thing and then as another"
Motherfucker.
I have a 3 year old who intermittently through the day pretends she is a dog, a flying one no less.
Her best friend, thinks he is an aeroplane.
They have often worn each others clothes, played with each others toys, and spend a huge amount of time in the den pretending to be Go-jetters and paw patrol.
You think it's going to mess with the kids to have to recognise that something is one way and then its another and then carry on with their lives like its not a big deal?
And one of your kids got into trouble for harrassing some poor kid and you are complaining because the "confusion" is what drove them to it.
Your kids lack imagination and you lack parenting skills.
Motherfucker.
I have a 3 year old who intermittently through the day pretends she is a dog, a flying one no less.
Her best friend, thinks he is an aeroplane.
They have often worn each others clothes, played with each others toys, and spend a huge amount of time in the den pretending to be Go-jetters and paw patrol.
You think it's going to mess with the kids to have to recognise that something is one way and then its another and then carry on with their lives like its not a big deal?
And one of your kids got into trouble for harrassing some poor kid and you are complaining because the "confusion" is what drove them to it.
Your kids lack imagination and you lack parenting skills.
Skellig Gra
Member
Possibly but I know that at my sons daycare repeat offenders can be expelled for certain things. These are 2/3 olds.
affleck1981
Member
Yeah - my son is 5 and sometimes calls women 'he' and men 'she' - it's not even something I think a primary school would pick up on unless the student was doing it in such an obvious way or over a prolonged period of time. Heck, I've been called 'Dad' accidentally by some Y7 students whilst teaching - kids make mistakes like this all the time. I can't imagine a school giving any real punishment for simple mistakes.
Any decent parent would explain this in terms that the child would understand and then the kid would get on with their life. Most students don't care about stuff like this - they accept things pretty quickly and easily.
And yes, the kids that called me dad die inside of embarrassment.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Yeah, these people are transphobic. Fuck them.
The blowback against tolerance and respecting each other is so fucking weird.
Who gives a fuck what some other kid is doing in your kids school if it is not hurting your kid? Not that long ago it probably upset the grandparents in this situation that a colored person went to school with their kids. Fuck off.
The worst part of it is that the assholes are winning. There seem to be more too them. At least that vote...
Who gives a fuck what some other kid is doing in your kids school if it is not hurting your kid? Not that long ago it probably upset the grandparents in this situation that a colored person went to school with their kids. Fuck off.
The worst part of it is that the assholes are winning. There seem to be more too them. At least that vote...
tonysidaway
Member
This is another one of those hopeless cases like all the others that the Christian Legal Centre champions. If the school has not acted unreasonably (and reading the story, I see no suggestion that it did) its interpretation of the Equalities Act 2010 will prevail. The Diocese has correctly stated that the Act obliges its schools to accommodate gender preferences with respect.
Other CLC cases include a private prosecution against the Baltic art gallery for outraging public decency. The complainant, who lived 250 miles away in Essex, never visited the gallery, which had displayed a crudely constructed statue of Jesus with a huge erect penis. The case was quickly dropped by the Crown Prosecution Service.
In another case, two prospective foster parents went to court for clarification of the law after a council social worker had informed then they couldn't tell children under their care that homosexuality is wrong. The court sided with the council.
Other CLC cases include a private prosecution against the Baltic art gallery for outraging public decency. The complainant, who lived 250 miles away in Essex, never visited the gallery, which had displayed a crudely constructed statue of Jesus with a huge erect penis. The case was quickly dropped by the Crown Prosecution Service.
In another case, two prospective foster parents went to court for clarification of the law after a council social worker had informed then they couldn't tell children under their care that homosexuality is wrong. The court sided with the council.
ReplacementPelican
Member
I remember the latter of those, thanks for sharing the information. I can't imagine they actually believed that either of these would achieve anything.
Reminds me of when that Christian organisation (potentially the same one?) tried to get Stewart Lee prosecuted for blasphemy for Jerry Springer The Opera (anyone reading this thread who hasn't seen it, see it, its amazing) when it was clear that none of them had actually seen nor understood the play.
tonysidaway
Member
At least in the UK, they're losing case after case, and they're dwindling in numbers to the point where even the Conservative Party no longer pays them lip service.
This trend even seems to be happening, at last, in the United States. The Christian Right strongly affected the election results throughout the 1990s and 2000s, but they're far less influential now.
Yeah, most children just gets it by default. It's mostly adults that have a whole bunch of their identity wrapped up in "YOU CAN ONLY BE THIS" that try to instill shitty views.
I'm curious what the nature of the discipline is.
At age 6, I'd assume disciplining for a genuine innocent error of that nature boils down to 'don't do that, it's not nice'. I don't think that's unreasonable, and if the parents are withdrawing for that reason, they're just looking for an excuse.
If the disciplining is more serious - are we talking exclusionary measures, here? - I'd assume we're looking at something way more deliberate and cruel than an accident. At which point the discipline is significant, yes, but so is the transgression.
I note the parents are pitching it as "Innocent mistake -> Significant discipline", and I suspect that someone's not being honest - I would note, though, that that's not necessarily the parents being dishonest, the child might have downplayed the nastiness.
I would also suggest that there are other kids in these classes, and there's nothing in the news report that suggests that other kids are having great difficulty with this concept... except for the older brother. Funny, that.
To get into a broader question, here: at what point should those parents' teachings be regarded as child abuse? I'm thinking of the specific instances where the child themselves might be trans (or indeed gay, or any one of a number of such traits), and is having to reconcile how they feel with the fact that the parents are - unknowingly - asserting that that's terrible.
Once upon a time children were commonly beaten for having the audacity to be left-handed. I'd like us to be better than repeating history.
zorlaczerohero
Banned
This Gender shite? This little bit of shite that defines a person? What the actual fuck? If a kid doesn't get it, it's because his parents are bigoted cunt-wombles who've made sure he doesn't get it. I have 3 kids, all of which are in daily contact with pupils who identify as something other than their birth certificate gender. My kids don't give a flying fuck, it doesn't enter into their daily hurdles because I taught them to accept everyone, regardless. It's really not confusing for adults or children. You're either a bigoted cunt or you aren't. You calling this 'gender shite' sums up what you are.
tonysidaway
Member
There were two different organisations involved in that case, which preceded the 2007 founding of CLC.
Christian Voice, run by Stephen Green, organised protests outside theatres and a massive campaign of complaint against the 2004 televised performance, resulting in over 55,000 complaint letters to the BBC. Both Christian Voice and Christian Institute, run by Colin Hart, unsuccessfully tried to bring various private prosecutions and judicial reviews in
connection with the opera or the BBC broadcast.
tonysidaway
Member
I'm not sure where this claim of being disciplined comes from. The parents have hinted at their interpretation of the school's bullying policy but seem to have stopped short of claiming their son has been disciplined. They seem to be suing the school for allowing a transgender pupil to choose whether to wear male or female clothing.
Triggerhappytel
Member
So explain it. Teach the kids to be tolerant, tell them not everyone is the same and that it's natural to be curious but it's not okay to be mean to someone just because they're different or they're confused about themselves. I have a 7 year old and we've explained to her all kinds of things like death, disability and being gay. Showing them tolerance, encouraging questions and being kind and respectful to others seems like the kind of thing the Church of England would teach.
ReplacementPelican
Member
So I saw another interview with them where they say 'they let a boy wear a dress.'
I'm pondering here. What if the child isn't transgender but just wanted to wear a dress (not claiming this is the situation but its what they seem to believe). Does that make this complaint more stupid or less stupid?
Like, do we still live in a society where people would still get irrationally upset at a boy wearing a dress?
So, even by their transphobic statements of 'a boy is a boy, a girl is a girl', they then need to justify why they're so upset and suing a school for letting a boy wear a dress.
I'm pondering here. What if the child isn't transgender but just wanted to wear a dress (not claiming this is the situation but its what they seem to believe). Does that make this complaint more stupid or less stupid?
Like, do we still live in a society where people would still get irrationally upset at a boy wearing a dress?
So, even by their transphobic statements of 'a boy is a boy, a girl is a girl', they then need to justify why they're so upset and suing a school for letting a boy wear a dress.
tonysidaway
Member
In law, this case will come down to gender expression. The law still allows schools to impose an appropriate dress policy, which may include gender-specific elements. That part of the law is still fluid unless and until the parents of a self-identified child of either sex challenge a school's uniform policy in order to identify under one gender and wear the clothing they are forbidden to wear under school policy on the grounds of their gender.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
Maybe parents who fear their kid may be gay/bi/trans send them to religious schools in the hope they'll be "straightened out"Trust me when I say Church schools are not where you want to send your kid if you don't want them to be gay or trans.
Out of a year of 30 kids, 17 have come out as gay/bi/trans since. That said it was also a private all boys catholic school so.
So maybe there's a selection bias going on. But this is all speculation.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Sounds like this Christian couple are raising a right pair of assholes. They must be so proud.
Probably grow up to be rich trolls like that cunt that was harassing Gina Miller.
Probably grow up to be rich trolls like that cunt that was harassing Gina Miller.
How About No
Member
This, maybe their 'boys n girls' lesson planner needs to be updated to modern standards
appaws
Banned
That is fucking hilarious. Best post of the thread.
Pyroclastic
Banned
They checked on whether you went to church or not? Damn. This didn't come in to play at all at my Catholic school
Eeeeeexactly. If we're gonna worry about children not understanding "the intricacies" of something, then we might as well not teach them anything. There are various cultures that embrace more than two gender identities. They seem to still exist and raise children.
The reason why a lot of this gender stuff is confusing for cis-adults, aside from being willingly obtuse, is that we were taught to believe certain things about sex and gender and identity, and trans people often don't fit into that mold. So we have to unlearn what we believed as true, and that can be hard as hell (especially since many of us take being wrong so personally). For children, they have yet to be bogged down into what society says is and isn't acceptable in regards to gender, so it's much easier to accept the concept of being transgender.
Basically, these parents are bigots, and while they are within their right to remove their kids, it doesn't make them morally (or scientifically) correct.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Yeah, that's actually a first for me to hear. Hell my mother is the headteacher for a CoE school, and given she has muslim students, that seems just... odd.
Then again, might be something that used to be done but isn't now.
There's a COE school where I live that did the same thing. I ended up at the catholic school 'cause they didn't check. Still got very publically bollocked for not knowing hail mary tho
Still happens at the one in my town. Friends have tried getting their kids in and met this obstacle. Shame as it's one of the best schools locally too
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe I'm completely wrong so feel free to correct me, but isn't 6yo a little young to know you're trans? I would think that's a far too complicated subject for such a young child to grasp.
Hot Coldman
Banned
ahahaha
My catholic school took everyone in - Muslim, Protestant, Sikh, whatever - and didn't give a fuck. We still had Catholic R.E. classes of course, and my blatant falling out with the idea of religion from about Year 9 made it the only subject where the teachers hated my guts and I wasn't in the top class for
not a humblebrag, I did terribly at college and only passably in uni
So you are in favor of every children taking puberty blockers and dressing agenderly OR you think 6 year olds are old enoght to be cisgender but young enoght to be transgender ?
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