PJV3
Member
I would happily take something early Blair-ish without all the union and leftwing bashing stunts.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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I would happily take something early Blair-ish without all the union and leftwing bashing stunts.
Never said a official one. It's still weird.
I think they have some good ideas, but are terribly, terribly presented. Go back to 97 and look at New Labours pledge card and compare that to this waffle.
I also think full employment is DUMB - no-ones buying it, stop trying to sell it. I think they need to stop focussing on zero hour contracts because it doesn't sway floting voters. I think the idea that a giant new government enterprise will fix education is extremely unpalatable (and I work in these areas). What the fuck does " with social justice at the heart of our environmental policies" mean? Or "expand democratic participation, put the public back into our economy,"? Or "extend democratic social control over our energy." What the fuck is democratic social control over energy when its at home?
Also, and here's the big one - where the hell is the Brexit policy? Where is the one liner that will actually have an impact on this election? Like it or not this is a brexit election and Labour seems to be shutting its eyes and pretending otherwise. how can you have 10 promises and none of them actually tell you what Labours stance on Brexit is? ? ?
EDIT: Also, I'd say that when consumer confidence is high, you shouldn't be launching your campaign based on the economy not working. Clearly the majority of people think it is, so don't try and tell them it isn't. Instead, be really clear about how it will be better under you for people.
That's false. I think it is unlikely because of the gap in the polls, but things can happen. Polls are often wrong, and were wrong last election by 7-10 points but closing that 20+ point gap is going to be very hard.
Polls in the UK underestimate conservative support, not labour.
And when we say polls have been wrong, we don't mean by 20 points.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Conservatives have locked down the old people vote, the other demographics can easily wreck the Conservatives but they don't vote. It's harder to get liberals to vote than to get the conservative demographic to vote, like the US has seen.
if the polls are wrong Labour will be doing even worse
Corbyn isn't a typical Labour leader and appeals to people who otherwise would not vote. It's not wise to compare him to other Labour leaders and the support they were getting.
20 points is alot. there is not 0 chance of him pulling it off though.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I mean, you know what I'm gonna say, right.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
The thing about people who don't vote is that they don't vote.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
We can't even be this optimistic. Consumer confidence is not about what people think the economy is like now, it's what they think it will be like over the next 12 months. If you ask people what they think about the economy now, they're pretty downbeat... but they think everything is going to get better in the future, which is why consumer confidence is high. In other words, there's still a lot of people who think Brexit will deliver us.
If Brexit goes badly, there will be a lot of very angry people in about two years' time.
I am not sure what this comment even means. People who otherwise would not vote are invested in supporting Corbyn. Then there is the fact the turnout will be pretty low. That will be bad for May. I think it is unlikely Corbyn wins but it is not impossible. Things can and do happen. We live in crazy times.
Huw_Dawson
Member
This is a bit blunt. I blame whoever didn't think through how easy this would be to parody.
Linkstrikesback
Member
You're right, of course.
I'm just trying to work out whether it's more or less likely than Teresa may spontaneously combusting before the election, or a meteor falls from the sky hitting only her.
People who don't vote don't vote. That's the thing. We have zero evidence that Corbyn is somehow magically changing that. In addition, everytime non-votes are polled they basically turn out to have the same breakdowns as voters - so don't expect that boosting turn out massively can create a new influx of left wing voters, because there's lots of right wing people out there who don't vote as well.
LMAO
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Honestly if the UK is really this conservative (Not talking about David Cameron's centrist conservativism, Merkel conservatism, etc.) and the brakes are off now the Tories don't need to be centrist anymore to get elected, there is no hope for the left for a generation. Expect a whole raft of socially conservative policies being pushed once the base gets their hardline ideologues in.
I miss 2010 where I was actually complaining about both parties being similarly centrist. Those were good times.
I miss 2010 where I was actually complaining about both parties being similarly centrist. Those were good times.
PJV3
Member
Yes, but you're a libdem you say similar things to moderate Tory voters. I'm happy to compromise with a Labour leader who doesn't only want it to travel one way.
I say this as a gay man - I'm not particulary worried about social conservatism. for all her evil, May has been decent on LGBT stuff over the lifespan of the coalition government, and this year gave a speech addressing the pink awards. Simiarily, she's the first home secretary to have told the most senior police force in the land - you're racist.
It's economic conservatism that worries me. I don't think we'll go back to section 28, or banning abortion, or pretending the police are amazing. But I do think we'll see massive cuts to benefits, harsh anti-immigration rhetoric, and a huge amount of dumbness directed at the EU when we fail to magically get everything we want.
They aren't though. Sorry to be mean, but there's literally no sign of Corbyn activating a hidden group of non-voters who are suddenly going to participate. Also, non-voters tend to have the same political leanings as voters, so don't expect floods of new left wing voters from no-where.
The reason parties focus more on voters than non-voters is because its really hard to get non-voters to vote. and so far, we don't see any sign of that changing.
nelsonroyale
Member
The Cameron - Theresa May combo have easily been the worst run of governments during my lifetime. The focus on Labour infighting has mislead most people on the extent of this conservative administrations failings. People want reassurance, and they are getting reassurance from the way May is presented, even when the reality is far different and the fallout of many of the disaterous decisions Cameron and she have made have time lag.
Fuck May government basically. Should have had an election in May anyway. Would have been better for more puns..
Fuck May government basically. Should have had an election in May anyway. Would have been better for more puns..
The Hamburglar
Banned
why isn;'t May holding this election in May? Surely the headlines and puns would give her a boost?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Why is it that you don't like labour? Obviously you're very into the whole lib dems thing, so I'm not expecting you to be their biggest fan or anything, but I'd expect them to at least share some of your values and beliefs - at least a lot more so than the tories.
I'm not asking this as a labour supporter by the way, I'm still stuck trying to decide between labour and lib dems this time round. Like just genuinely curious what the main differences are between them that have made you align yourself the way you have?
PJV3
Member
The Labour party really has buggered it up on all sides, the Tories are doing badly on a lot of domestic fronts and would be fairly beatable. Corbyn without the constant fighting wouldn't win but he would be a lot closer.
Have you got a source on this? Non voters are likely to be younger and from poorer backgrounds, both of which tend to lean more towards labour than tory.
You are right it is hard to get them to vote, though. That is the hope but it is unlikely anything will come from it.
FlammableD
Banned
Her voting record, and the policies harmful to women and refugees the Tories are responsible for since the coalition aren't worrying enough?
Maybe she doesn't care for puns. I, meanwhile, am hoping against hope that this year, May falls in June.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Re: social conservatism - I did one of those "isidewith" questionaire thingies today, just for fun since some guys in the whatsapp group were doing it.
I consider myself to be a fairly liberal guy (don't laugh). There were questions in there about same-sex marriage, abortion, drug use legalisation, etc. and I'm like sure go ahead, fill your boots, tick tick tick.
Result comes out...
87% Conservative
I know the Tories are "right wing" but it really just seems like the whole of the political scene has moved on with regard to all these. Noone is talking about rolling back any of them!
a) I addressed voting record. She had an utterly shit gay rights voting record. She was also the cabinet minister responsible for gay marriage, and has been very clear on gay rights since the coalition took over. Had you asked me 10 years ago whether a conservative government would be pushing for specific programs to tackle homophobic bullying in schools I would have thought you were on drugs,
b) The stuff about women is appalling (I work in this sector), but it's not a targeted campaign against women, it is a side effect of the overall package of cuts which has hit everything. And at the same time the government has been providing several funding streams specifically to help stop VAWG ( violence against women and girls), such as the DCLG ring fenced Refuge funding, or the Transformation fund for VAWG, or the funding through the Mayor's office for helping implement the Corsten report for female offending. It was the coalition government that finally implemented the Domestic Violence Homicide requirements in 2012 remember, meaning that whenever a person died to domestic violence a full scale formal independent review occurred to establish where we failed and how.
There are terrible policies there. But when people say social conservatism, to me that means much more the American style politics, or the Tories pre Cameron - specific policies deliberately designed to target minority groups and punish them. That's not what this government does. It punishes everyone with economic conservatism.
They aren't right now. What worries me is that if Brexit really is the shitshow that a lot of smart people think it will be, they might be in a decade. Economic issues tend to breed social issues.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Yep. New New Labour. The acceptance that Government and Politics are, ironically enough, at the separate ends of a chart. One is about idealism and unbending principles, the other is about compromise and adaptation.
The Left has driven itself insane chasing the ghosts of perfect people and utopian concepts for the last decade, and this is all the end result. True left victory, as in "the goodies" is accepting its always going to be a slow and steady uphill push of the cart that requires constant focus. Inching forward with what seems like tiny victories and maybe even some own goals makes for a better world than 20 Years Of Uncontested Darkness.
Oh and anyone on this forum that hisses "neoliberal scum" can fuck off into an abyss. The incredible failure coming the lefts way is your fault entirely so suck on that sour clam.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Too much to cover on my phone, but I'm on the left of my party - I don't get into vapours when people say 'the railways should be nationalised' for example, and I believe that a government should involve itself in redistribution of wealth. I believe capitalism has flaws and government should be on the side of the people versus big business.
So why am I not a Corbynista?
Same reason Farron isn't, really.
I grew up poor, in Labour areas, and saw how directionless they are with regards to their policy and arrogant they are about their voters. I went through high school at the time of the Iraq War and at the height of the Blairite target culture in education.
I find Labour to be a party that either spins the wheels, gazes into its own navel or believes itself to have the God-given right to speak for the working poor.
I also strongly believe in Lib Dem policy. We need to be aggressive on LGBT rights, we need to reform the political system to be more representative, we need closer integration with Europe, we need a health service that is properly funded and run by experts, not politicians, we need a massive focus on getting the absolute best education for all kids.
Some of that is covered by the Labour platform, but it is hard for me to be enthused by Labour, who have failed time and time again whilst in government and let the Tories back in over and over again.
My belief is that Labour are pointless if they cannot stand against the Tories and build a fairer society. I don't think they are coming from a good place ideologically, I think they are drained of talent, I think they are horrendously split between leftists and illiberal centrist Blairites, and I think they have been allowed to act like they own areas of the country.
I see Labour politicians like Joe Anderson take £92000 out of Liverpool's own money pot to fund a court case, ffs.
It also helps that I like the culture of the Lib Dems, which is a party full of awkward, hard working nerds who really care about getting policy right and sticking up for their communities.
/rant
You did ask.
The right wing has instituted two massive changes in British social and political life in the past 40 years (Thatcherism, and now Brexit), but for anybody on the left to have aspirations for major change they're told it's pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic, politics doesn't work that way. Why is this? Can somebody explain it to me? With all the talk of 'minor improvements' and 'don't rock the boat too much', people hoping for New New Labour are basically letting the Tories (and in fact, even darker, further right-wing groups like UKIP) win every significant political victory.
The Left used to think that they could change things in a big way, and in fact they did, back in the 1950s. Now they're happy as long as government spending is only cut by 20% instead of 22%.
Got a link to that one?
I found the one for the US election quite fun, but have never seen one for a UK election.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
This post piqued my curiosity so I went onto the isidewith site and took the poll...
36% Conservative.
Thank fuck for that.
lol, fuck off.
https://uk.isidewith.com/
The left has as well.
LGBT rights have advanced at a speed that no-one, *no-one* would have believed if you went back to 1995 and told them. I stood outside parliament listening to the debate about lowering the age of consent and was shocked we even got that. 15 years later and a conservative government pushes through gay marriage. That's a fundamental change to our society - we've gone from gay people being outed in the press and harassed, to gay people selling their tacky wedding photo's to Hello.
The left has advanced climate change. Whilst the conservatives are still shit on it, no-one know believes that it doesn't exist. It's now an agreed fact for all major parties.
The left also achieved major policing changes in this country. Police forces are held to account by their communities in ways that are unheard of. I work in Brixton, and hearing the stories about what used to happen and comparing them to how the police and community now interact is shocking. The police still have huge issues, but they are transparent and accountable in an unheard of way - which came from all the crime bills Blair passed in office, such as the 97 act.
FlammableD
Banned
Fair enough, I see your point on the social vs economic
Roberto Larcos
Member
It's a shame how little press the Conservative campaign against the disabled gets.
I guess it's not newsworthy until it impacts you, personally, directly.
I guess it's not newsworthy until it impacts you, personally, directly.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Sure, here you go: https://uk.isidewith.com/
I'm sure there are others but that's the one I used. Seems pretty decent as it gives you a number of options and then asks how important each thing is.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Surely can't be too useful when we don't even have manifestos yet?
FlammableD
Banned
86% Liberal Democrat
80% Labour
79% SNP
74% Green
71% Plaid Cymru
60% Sinn Féin
50% Conservative
45% Democratic Unionist
41% UKIP
37% British National
Some of the partial matches are a bit broad, hence why there's still 37% BNP...
80% Labour
79% SNP
74% Green
71% Plaid Cymru
60% Sinn Féin
50% Conservative
45% Democratic Unionist
41% UKIP
37% British National
Some of the partial matches are a bit broad, hence why there's still 37% BNP...
Seeing him suffer his eighth defeat would have been one good spot on election night.
91% Liberal Democrat.
Seems I should be voting Lib Dem regardless of Brexit.
Only places I disagree is that Uni fees should be abolished and that all drugs should be decriminalised (I said that weed should be).
Hah, we're basically the same politically apparently!
QuicheFontaine
Member
Yeah, I don't think it's supposed to be scientific or anything, but it could be useful for a first time voter perhaps. It looks like so far people are getting the party they would expect for 1st or 2nd place.
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