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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding

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Audioboxer

Member
Of leave voters in Scotland:

Con: 51%
Lab: 15%
LD: 3%
SNP: 25%

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...esResults_170518_Scotland_WestminsterVI_W.pdf

Just over 30% of SNP voters want to leave the EU.

Yes, you still need to have SNP voters voting Leave to get to

L05dWUu.png


My point was when you combine the Conservative and Labour voters in Scotland you'll probably see the bulk of who voted for Brexit. If the majority of Leave voters were in the SNP camp Leave would have won in Scotland.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
Good for him. Nothing to lose. Turn up in a 'Where's May?" t-shirt and cut a promo direct into the camera.

"I don't hate you, Theresa. I don't even dislike you. I do like you. I like you a hell of a lot more than most people in the Conservative Party. What I hate is this idea that you're the best. I'm the best - on the doorstep, in Parliament, even in Europe!"
 

Audioboxer

Member
Why would it surprise anyone that a nationalist party who express and entire reason for existing is to make Scotland independent has members who don't want to then join a super-national entity and lose control over various government functions?

Yes, all those government functions the EU absolutely ground to a halt to destroy Britain.
 

jelly

Member
Scotland's disappointing me greatly with this turn towards the fucking Tories. Don't care what the reasons are - I can understand wanting to stay in the union, but it makes you wonder what the independence referendum was all about. Well anyway, it's still a small minority who are changing.

Also, very funny/entertaining move for Corbyn to announce he will attend the debate on the day of. If he says the right things he can possibly solidify Theresa May's growing reputation as afraid of unrehearsed debate, and therefore as nothing like the strong negotiator she claims to be. Or it could go very badly! I will watch some if I can.

My parents have gone a bit Tory loving, it is the IndyRef2 thing. I don't get it, you still have to vote for it when it happens. They hate Corbyn as well, have a major beef with funding problems but don't give flak at the Tories for no numbers or austerity. I tried when I see them but it didn't work for Brexit either. Disappointing.
 

Spuck-uk

Banned
"I don't hate you, Theresa. I don't even dislike you. I do like you. I like you a hell of a lot more than most people in the Conservative Party. What I hate is this idea that you're the best. I'm the best - on the doorstep, in Parliament, even in Europe!"

You found it, the one way to stop me voting for Corbyn
 
Irrational hatred for someone else 'telling you what to do' plus a fetishisation of sovereignty doesn't sound like the average Leave voter?

Although I do know that the idea of Scottish Independence is far more glamourised than 'England' leaving the EU but that's just the way these things go.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
You have to admit, Corbyn has been doing well despite the negative press covfefe
 

gun_haver

Member
Yes, all those government functions the EU absolutely ground to a halt to destroy Britain.

The point about a portion of SNP voters is still true though, which I didn't grasp back in the 2014 referendum. My reasons for voting yes then were based on the idea that an independent Scotland would be a more equal and open country than the UK as a whole is, and that there were certain powers to do with things like benefits and taxation which I'd imagined an independent Scotland would use to create that.

But I think there is a decent chunk of SNP voters who actually are just ignorant nationalists with no real basis for wanting independence except fuck outsiders of all kinds. Still a minority of SNP voters, because the right wing doesn't divide down cleanly and SNP's policies are not generally right wing, but enough that it makes a difference.

It's a shame.
 
"All the smaller parties will target Labour in the debates and the less exposure May has to the public the better"

Which is not really a good idea anyway - Rudd will be attacked just as much as May was, as it's on domestic policy where the Tories are by far most vulnerable.

You have to admit, Corbyn has been doing well despite the negative press covfefe

The comparisons to Trump's campaign are getting quite similar now.
 

Audioboxer

Member
The point about a portion of SNP voters is still true though, which I didn't grasp back in the 2014 referendum. My reasons for voting yes then were based on the idea that an independent Scotland would be a more equal and open country than the UK as a whole is, and that there were certain powers to do with things like benefits and taxation which I'd imagined an independent Scotland would use to create that.

But I think there is a decent chunk of SNP voters who actually are just ignorant nationalists with no real basis for wanting independence except fuck outsiders of all kinds. Still a minority of SNP voters, because the right wing doesn't divide down cleanly and SNP's policies are not generally right wing, but enough that it makes a difference.

It's a shame.

True, but things like that always become a major concern when they turn into the majority of the thought process throughout the voter base. At that point either the voting base is toxic, or the party itself is toxic. Or a combination of both.

In other words, every party has its idiots. If they're a minority then that's often the normal balance in life of taking some bad with the good. I'd refute the "decent chunk" remark, but agree there are minority voters with shitty views.

When the SNP themselves are up spouting shit like UKIP/The Tories behind an independence campaign like both of them were Brexit then I think we can have a more reasonable look at "problematic nationalism". Right now I think it's clear the bulk who support them up here are just utterly depressed and at wits end with the way the UK is heading. Constant Tory reign, voting for shit like Brexit and the rUK far behind on social progress and forward thinking. The current Labour manifesto is a step in the right direction, but again Labour won't win and there's still some contentious points in it like Trident pandering.

Push a nation to have to constantly walk in line with shit many do not like and you'll understandably have the voting base routinely looking around for solutions. Given even Labour keep constant hostility to working with the SNP, many in Scotland further feel like the status quo of UK politics is utterly unworkable and in the short to midterm of our lifetimes will be a constant hardship. Brexit can't just be voted away in 4~8 years either. So it's a huge talking point when we come to discussions around "voters lifetimes".
 

danm999

Member
How fucking incompetent do you have to be to not have a cohesive strategy for a public debate during a General Election you've called!

This is who most of the UK wants to represent them during negotiations with the world's largest trading bloc!?
 

jem0208

Member
How fucking incompetent do you have to be to not have a cohesive strategy for a public debate during a General Election you've called!

This is who most of the UK wants to represent them during negotiations with the world's largest trading bloc!?
Her strategy was to avoid debates.


It hasn't worked out.
 

jelly

Member
How fucking incompetent do you have to be to not have a cohesive strategy for a public debate during a General Election you've called!

This is who most of the UK wants to represent them during negotiations with the world's largest trading bloc!?

Britanna rules the waves or something. Don't need to negotiate.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
How fucking incompetent do you have to be to not have a cohesive strategy for a public debate during a General Election you've called!

This is who most of the UK wants to represent them during negotiations with the world's largest trading bloc!?

May's got red, white and blue. That's a plan. The best plan.
 

hohoXD123

Member
How fucking incompetent do you have to be to not have a cohesive strategy for a public debate during a General Election you've called!

This is who most of the UK wants to represent them during negotiations with the world's largest trading bloc!?

Guys, it's fine, she's a bloody difficult woman remember.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I wasn't gonna bother watching tonight's debate but now that Corbyn is coming I'll do it.

Corbyn is like Tom Kirkman from designated survivor, no one likes him and everyone thought he was incompetent. But he is learning in the job and appearing very strong with each passing day.
 

gun_haver

Member
True, but things like that always become a major concern when they turn into the majority of the thought process throughout the voter base. At that point either the voting base is toxic, or the party itself is toxic. Or a combination of both.

In other words, every party has its idiots. If they're a minority then that's often the normal balance in life of taking some bad with the good. I'd refute the "decent chunk" remark, but agree there are minority voters with shitty views.

When the SNP themselves are up spouting shit like UKIP/The Tories behind an independence campaign like both of them were Brexit then I think we can have a more reasonable look at "problematic nationalism". Right now I think it's clear the bulk who support them up here are just utterly depressed and at wits end with the way the UK is heading. Constant Tory reign, voting for shit like Brexit and the rUK far behind on social progress and forward thinking. The current Labour manifesto is a step in the right direction, but again Labour won't win and there's still some contentious points in it like Trident pandering.

Push a nation to have to constantly walk in line with shit many do not like and you'll understandably have the voting base routinely looking around for solutions. Given even Labour keep constant hostility to working with the SNP, many in Scotland further feel like the status quo of UK politics is utterly unworkable and in the short to midterm of our lifetimes will be a constant hardship. Brexit can't just be voted away in 4~8 years either. So it's a huge talking point when we come to discussions around "voters lifetimes".

I don't really have any criticism of the SNP on these grounds yet but I am aware that they have started a bit of a backpedal on EU enthusiasm since they figured out that they have a contingent of xenophobic voters as well - maybe you can say that is smart, but they've gone as far as I would want to see them go and still feel comfortable voting for them. I'm more disappointed in the Scottish electorate so far though, although it's with a kind of 'oh yeah, what was I thinking' because my own sunny idea of a left wing hi-tech independent Scotland has never really matched up with the reality of the place and the people I know. There's always been a parochial and clannish tone to the conversations I hear.

I just think it's also important for SNP and independence supporters who are in good faith about the whole thing to admit to the fact it isn't all completely wholesome at the same time. I think you and I basically agree - 'decent chunk' vs 'small minority' aside.
 

Corum

Member
From the Guardian:

Tories confirm May will not take part in tonight's debate

Theresa May has, unsurprisingly, turned down Jeremy Corbyn's fresh invitation to join him in tonight's debate. A Conservative party spokesman said:

There are no changes to the prime minister's plans. She is out campaigning today, engaging with voters about the issues that matter, not swapping soundbites with six other politicians.

There is a clear choice in this election: either the Brexit negotiations are led by Theresa May 11 days after polling day, or they will be put at risk by Jeremy Corbyn and his coalition of chaos.

A Tory source said:

The public want to see a leader who can stare down the EU 27 at the negotiation table, not someone who will need their iPad to remember their dodgy facts in a debate.

Coward.
 

PJV3

Member
From the Guardian:



Coward.


"The public want to see a leader who can stare down the EU 27 at the negotiation table, not someone who will need their iPad to remember their dodgy facts in a debate"


Definitely a strong smell of chicken.
 

nOoblet16

Member
From the Guardian:


A Tory source said:
The public want to see a leader who can stare down the EU 27 at the negotiation table, not someone who will need their iPad to remember their dodgy facts in a debate.


Coward.
The irony here is that the Tory source is describing May there not Corbyn.

And she will stare down alright, shell stare cause she won't be able to say anything under pressure.
 

Audioboxer

Member
I don't really have any criticism of the SNP on these grounds yet but I am aware that they have started a bit of a backpedal on EU enthusiasm since they figured out that they have a contingent of xenophobic voters as well - maybe you can say that is smart, but they've gone as far as I would want to see them go and still feel comfortable voting for them. I'm more disappointed in the Scottish electorate so far though, although it's with a kind of 'oh yeah, what was I thinking' because my own sunny idea of a left wing hi-tech independent Scotland has never really matched up with the reality of the place and the people I know. There's always been a parochial and clannish tone to the conversations I hear.

I just think it's also important for SNP and independence supporters who are in good faith about the whole thing to admit to the fact it isn't all completely wholesome at the same time. I think you and I basically agree - 'decent chunk' vs 'small minority' aside.

I'm not sure why you think that at all. Alyn Smith leads a commendable approach to the EU/inclusiveness and forward thinking for Scotland in Europe

https://twitter.com/AlynSmithMEP

He hasn't stopped since Brexit. In recent months a lot of the internal approach, if you're talking Sturgeon and MPs, has been about the local election and now the general election. We are also largely waiting on the UK negotiations to further our future outcome.

From the manifesto too (a fair bit on the EU/single market, and this is just a chunk copy/pasted)

Protecting Scotland's place in the Single Market

We must make sure that our interests are not ignored in the Brexit negotiations - a vote for the SNP will make sure that Scotland's voice is heard. A majority of people in Scotland voted to remain in the EU - but even many of those who voted to leave have real concerns about the extreme Brexit being pursued by the Prime Minister. Leaving the Single Market could cost 80,000 jobs in Scotland. That is why the Scottish Government published proposals that would keep Scotland in the Single Market, even as we left the EU. These proposals were rejected by the UK government. However, if the SNP wins this election, we will demand a place for Scotland at the Brexit negotiating table and the inclusion of the case for our place in the

Single Market in the UK's negotiating remit.

Protecting our place in the European Single Market The European Single Market represents in excess of 500 million consumers – eight times the size of the UK's market. The Tories' plans to take us out of the Single Market would damage our economy. In Scotland 80,000 Scottish jobs could be lost, wages face a £2,000 per head cut and our economy faces a hit of up to £11 billion a year by 2030. Our public finances are also threatened by the loss of EU funding for research and development, and support for our rural communities. It is clear that there is no rational case for taking Scotland, or the UK, out of the Single Market. SNP MPs will seek to protect Scotland's economy by working to protect Scotland's place in the Single Market.

Scotland does not have to choose between the Single Market and the UK market. Whatever future the people of Scotland choose, it is in everyone's interests that Scotland and the rest of the UK maintain a smooth trading relationship. After all, the rest of the UK exports over £50 billion a year to Scotland, making Scotland the top destination in Europe for exports from the rest of the UK, and England's second biggest market after the United States of America. SNP MPs will continue to press the UK government to work with the Scottish Government to support Scotland's businesses in the wake of Brexit, and ensure their voice is heard during negotiations.

Even parts on independence are reasonable and not led by "immigrants!" or other hateful rhetoric.

Scotland's choice

This election won't decide whether or not Scotland will be independent. But a vote for the SNP is a vote to reinforce the Scottish Parliament's right to decide when an independence referendum should happen. At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a real choice about our future. Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be. Last year's Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum in these circumstances. The recent vote of Scotland's national Parliament has underlined that mandate. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists. And, in such circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future, when the options are clear, and on a timescale determined by the Scottish Parliament, would be democratically unsustainable.

Scotland's place in Europe

The SNP believes that if Scotland chooses to become independent, we should be a member state of the EU. Before asking people to vote in an independence referendum, we will set out the process by which our membership of the EU will be secured in the circumstances that prevail at that time – such as whether or not Scotland has already left the EU as part of the UK. We will continue, in all circumstances, to demand the scrapping or fundamental reform of the Common Fisheries Policy and support Scottish control of Scottish fisheries, as we have done for many years. We will also oppose any attempt by the UK government to treat the fishing industry as a bargaining chip. Having sold out fishing as ‘expendable' on the way in to the EU, a Tory government must not be allowed to betray it again on the way out. Given that an independence referendum would happen at the end of the Brexit process, this election also presents Scotland with a more immediate opportunity. In the months ahead, we must make sure that our interests are not ignored in the Brexit negotiations. A vote for the SNP will make sure that Scotland's voice is heard. A majority of people in Scotland voted to remain in the EU - but even many of those who voted to leave have real concerns about the extreme Brexit being pursued by the UK government.

To be taken out, not just of the EU, but also of the Single Market, poses a real and present danger to Scottish jobs - to our farmers and fisherman, our universities, our food and drink businesses and to almost every sector of our economy. Indeed, it has been estimated that leaving the Single Market could cost 80,000 jobs in Scotland. That is why the Scottish Government published compromise proposals that would keep Scotland in the Single Market, even as we left the EU. These proposals were rejected out of hand by the UK government. Despite promising to listen to the devolved administrations, and being prepared to countenance a special deal for the car industry, they refused to consider arrangements that would address the specific needs of Scotland. However, this election offers people the chance to give the Scottish Government's proposals real democratic legitimacy and make it impossible for the Prime Minister to continue to ignore Scotland's voice. If the SNP wins the election, it will give us a mandate to demand a place for Scotland at the Brexit negotiating table and the inclusion of the case for our place in the Single Market in the UK's negotiating remit.

https://www.snp.org/manifesto
 

Maledict

Member
Yes, all those government functions the EU absolutely ground to a halt to destroy Britain.

I'm a strong EU supporter. Don't mistake my post about what people think for my own opinions.

The fact is being in the EU does mean giving up some control over some aspects of government. I am *absolutely* in favour of that - it's part and parcel of being in a club with obligations and requirements. For some people, particularly nationalists, it's not surprising that some of them don't like that aspect.
 
From the Guardian:



Coward.
What fucking arseholes!

First off 'Trading soundbites' WTF is 'Strong and stable' or 'No deals better than a bad deal'?! Meaningless dribble that does nothing but confuse the general public about the truth.

Secondly, they are really trying hard to make this stat issue stick arent they? The man is busy campaigning and travelling all over the country and him wanting to confirm a number before saying something wrong is apparently the end of the world. The opposition can double the national debt, cut 20,000 police, cut NHS spending as a % of GDP to its lowest since the NHS was created (IIRC) and the most we get for her is 'she stumbled but got straight back up'.

Absolutely disgusting and the media haven't helped by spreading the Tory smears.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
As I said on another forum,can't get Cameron back to talk to the EU? They are going to destroy her.

I believe Cameron was quoted as saying "Why do I have to do the hard shit?" shortly before his resignation. I don't think his non-deal he struck with the EU before the referendum exactly covers him in glory on the negotiation front either, even if he would be preferable to the gormless half-wits in charge now.
 
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