Yep. Partisan hacks and idiots on the margins keep people thinking this is a team sport: red v blue, them v us etc...
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UK PoliGAF |OT3| - Strong and Stable Government? No. Coalition Of Chaos!
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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Yep. Partisan hacks and idiots on the margins keep people thinking this is a team sport: red v blue, them v us etc...
I wouldn't necessarily call them idiots. We've got very real, recent evidence of what happens when an exciting new political energy engages with the Tories, gets used up and spat out a dead husk.
We need to be sure that what May wants is a genuine desire to engage everyone from all sides to unite the country and not to simply damage the opposition by association.
I mean it largely is, you often have parties disagree with a policy just because their opponent agrees with it. You have dismissals about magic money trees, opposition leaders being described as dangerous and terrorist sympathisers, and the House literally being set up like a team sport with all its heckling on both sides. This is a welcome step, if anything comes from it like lifting the public sector pay cap or reducing tuition fees or not fucking the NHS into oblivion then great, it would be one of a limited number of good things May has done during her time as PM even if it is clearly due to self-serving reasons.
I live in hope, simply because there are many members on both sides who actually do give a fuck about governance / improving conditions, problem is they often have to pander to the "base" / back bench fringes.
May seems to be happy to do anything to stay in, and reaching out to a party with a youth vote that represents the future electorate (when their base is ageing / dying) is self serving but at least it will mellow the hard right shift she took at the conference.
PJV3
Member
She said the same bullshit before about listening to everyone about Brexit, it's just empty words.
It isn't even in her nature to work with other Conservatives.
CyclopsRock
Member
It's kinda weird though, cause, like, normally I'm wary of cross-party consensus on issues because, nice and happy-clappy though it sounds, it does rather rob the electorate of any say in the matter, since the major parties seem to agree anyway. If there's some coalition between the major parties regarding Brexit then who do you vote for to express your distaste for whatever they broker?
That said, since they have the same fucking policy anyway (and therefore it's already impossible to base your vote on Brexit), why not bundle together, half the blame, double the potentially useful members able to get involved and take some of the left/right split out of it?
Fuck it. Let the DUP do it. Actually, no, let Sinn Fein do it. We'll empty chair the EU. Fuck everything. I hate everyone.
That said, since they have the same fucking policy anyway (and therefore it's already impossible to base your vote on Brexit), why not bundle together, half the blame, double the potentially useful members able to get involved and take some of the left/right split out of it?
Fuck it. Let the DUP do it. Actually, no, let Sinn Fein do it. We'll empty chair the EU. Fuck everything. I hate everyone.
I can't tell if this is a cynical move from the Conservatives to redeem themselves in the eyes of the public/lock Labour into a suicide pact, or genuinely a cry for help from a desperate Government facing problems they are not equipped to solve alone.
Nobody could take an olive branch from the Conservative party seriously after what happened to the Lib Dems, though.
Nobody could take an olive branch from the Conservative party seriously after what happened to the Lib Dems, though.
CyclopsRock
Member
Eh? I mean, that was a tactical blunder by the Lib Dems arguably, but it wasn't some sneaky ploy by the Tories - they wrote up their coalition agreement, passed the Fixed Term Parliament Act and it basically all went as planned.
That right there would be a big reason not to. You risk rewriting history by being seen as equally responsible for this mess when it is a Tory-made disaster.
While it's firmly against my stance on Brexit, from a strategic angle, I really like what Labour has done this election - their perceived reluctant acceptance of the referendum allowed them to move the conversation past Brexit. However, they cannot be seen as the sensible party-in-waiting (who are willing to change their policy if/when Brexit is an economic disaster) if they're complicit in the Tory mess.
If Labour doesn't take the offer they lose the argument "we could have made Brexit better" for the next elections since their official position is also not very different from Tories anyhow (so no technical reason to not work together on Brexit).
If Labour takes the offer, there will be all sorts of backlash.
This is an interesting chess move.
If Labour takes the offer, there will be all sorts of backlash.
This is an interesting chess move.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Labour need to take up the offer but publicly tell the Tories they aren't going to be fucked with and won't just vote for any bullshit policy.
Establish your out and put the onus on the Tories for coming up with good policies.
CyclopsRock
Member
I think this is slightly overblown, to be honest. If the Tories have to do some bad stuff to keep the DUP on board, that's a Tory-made disaster. But I think it requires a slightly unusual - not saying wrong, but unusual, uncommon - view of politics to think "Well yeah, I mean I know I voted for Brexit, but it's the Tories fault for letting me vote!" Everything politicians do is, in some way, because of the power invested in them by the public*. This decision cut out the middle man, and whilst I'm voraciously excited by the all the arguments about how the voting public aren't sufficiently educated on the matter to make an informed vote, I think people are overstating the degree to which people will blame the Tories for the result of a referendum.
Edit: * The reason I bring this up is because it's kind of a goony argument to say "It's me who has mandate from the people to decide whether we Brexit, not the people!"
Yup, pretty much. That's all this is about. They don't want to be the only ones holding the gas canister when the Brexit fire spreads.
Huw_Dawson
Member
In a vacuum, you'd probably vote SNP/Plaid/LD if you want less Brexit, and UKIP if you want more.
Most likely of course you'll be donating your vote to a party you know won't win, but that isn't the end of the world.
Didn't May just buy a majority with the DUP?
If she still can't form a working government then she should resign and call an election not go on and pretend like she is some bipartisan leader trying to make brexit work.
This fake humble act the Tories are putting on all of a sudden that we need to "work together" really just means "work for us".
If she still can't form a working government then she should resign and call an election not go on and pretend like she is some bipartisan leader trying to make brexit work.
This fake humble act the Tories are putting on all of a sudden that we need to "work together" really just means "work for us".
I never said it was a ploy.
But lets not kid ourselves, the Conservative party are in a class of their own when it comes to ruthlessness.
Huw_Dawson
Member
May is trying to relaunch her leadership, and she wants to do that via being nice rather than being nasty. So she'll "reach out" to Labour - it's spin, but it beats her making "citizens of nowhere" comments that make us all shudder.
This will fail, like all the rest of her leadership relaunches since the start of the election have failed. She's a stunned fly writhing on the ground waiting to be stepped on.
The cabinet is at war in the papers and Momentum decided to pick a fight with one of Labour's most spiky MPs (Berger) so at least it's not been a boring week in politics.
But all of this talk about Tory MPs threatening to vote the government down and cause Corbyn to become PM is a product of the silly season. The only meaningful leadership-related event this summer is Vince Cable taking over as LD leader, and that's only meaningful to a few, all things considered.
In the autumn May has to survive her party conference. I think the odds are long on that, and it's why I'm expecting another snap election in May or June next year. But I'd be gobsmacked if we get anything meaningful happening with the Tories or Labour until the start of the pre-conference Commons period.
This will fail, like all the rest of her leadership relaunches since the start of the election have failed. She's a stunned fly writhing on the ground waiting to be stepped on.
The cabinet is at war in the papers and Momentum decided to pick a fight with one of Labour's most spiky MPs (Berger) so at least it's not been a boring week in politics.
But all of this talk about Tory MPs threatening to vote the government down and cause Corbyn to become PM is a product of the silly season. The only meaningful leadership-related event this summer is Vince Cable taking over as LD leader, and that's only meaningful to a few, all things considered.
In the autumn May has to survive her party conference. I think the odds are long on that, and it's why I'm expecting another snap election in May or June next year. But I'd be gobsmacked if we get anything meaningful happening with the Tories or Labour until the start of the pre-conference Commons period.
Are... are you really trying to paint Brexit as an issue that isn't Conservative-made?
Huw_Dawson
Member
It'd be idiotic for Labour. They want Brexit done by somebody else.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40530700 said:
Freddo's back on the chopping block.
I get what you're saying, but it's really just a loquacious rewording of "will of the people". The Tory attitude and decision making prior, during, and after the referendum is probably not going to be forgotten as quickly as you hope.
CyclopsRock
Member
No. I'm saying that I think most people won't view it as the Tories fault when it's a result of direct democracy.
Theonik
Member
FTFY.
I already notice a massive difference in prices across the board since last year. It's crazy. Inflation might break 5% by the end of the year.
That's an incredibly generous view to have of the matter.
This is all them now and forever. the Tory party will have to own this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40530700
As posted above. Scroll down to the highest rated comments section if you dare.
GET BEHIND THE TEAM, DAMMIT!
CyclopsRock
Member
I'd say "optimistic" rather than "generous", since I'm making a prediction. But I think I'm right. Obviously. This is especially the case when the Tories were in government at the time and used - somewhat questionably, IMO - that position to give an "official" take on the question and sent a pamphlet to everyone in the country saying as much.
I always find these funny as I feel the BBC has, if anything been too pro-Brexit
Which probably means they are fulfilling their mandate of staying politically neutral
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Dominic Cummings (head of Leave Campaign) has had another go at the Brexiteers for wanting to leave EURATOM.
He's right but the fucker lined up with moronic fanatics in order to get what he wanted.
He's right but the fucker lined up with moronic fanatics in order to get what he wanted.
Cyclops has a point I think. There will be a core of people like (the majority of) us, who forever associate it with the Tories, and that may well end up being a sizeable group of people as our generation age and start consistently voting more, but there will also be a decent %age of people who will see the referendum as justified (proven by the fact that people voted to leave), and people just made a bad decision.
UKIP will be remembered as the party that pushed Brexit, and Cameron as the PM that naively gave them the chance to get it with the referendum
I think its more representative of the sheer level of delusion by leave voters tbh
UKIP will be remembered as the party that pushed Brexit, and Cameron as the PM that naively gave them the chance to get it with the referendum
I think its more representative of the sheer level of delusion by leave voters tbh
CyclopsRock
Member
I'd also like to point out the little known fact that more people voted to leave than stay.
JonnyDBrit
Member
As ever, it's too right for the left, and too left for the right.
That said, my experience of it has been that the BBC has been quite frank about the challenges of Brexit. They do lend some undue weight to ministers' supposed intent or ability to overcome those challenges, but the acknowledgement has been consistent.
anonymous_abc
Member
Ive come to appreciate sites that dont allow comments, they are entirely pointless.
Whenever I scroll down a Washington Post Story and see 8.5k comments I wonder who actually reads those‽
Dirtyshubb
Member
One of the most annoying things over the campaign, the amount of supposed professionals jumping at the chance to criticise Labour about writing a wish list for voters yet they would always let the Tories say some shitty scripted line defending their uncosted manifesto and not press them on it.
I suppose when all you do is take away and ask for less from the rich it doesnt take much money..
CyclopsRock
Member
In their defence, I don't think the Tories actually had any policies to cost.
Looks like there's at least nine Tory MPs who agree with Cummings, which is enough to defeat the Government on this issue. So I'd expect the Government to back down and put forward proposals to stay in EURATOM in some form soon.
The problem for May is that staying as part of EURATOM means accepting some form of jurisdiction for the ECJ. And if she accepts it for this..
jimbobsmells
Member
Exactly. Tweeting from a distance is worthless. He should make these noises in a more public forum. Market himself as the sane voice of Brexit.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Inaction can be costly.
anonymous_abc
Member
Is Brexit worth costing?
QuicheFontaine
Member
This is going to happen with the Unified Patent Court, which we've already said, post-Brexit, that we're going to press on and ratify. No one seems to have noticed / care about it though.
Yeah... I'm not optimistic. Especially coming from the head of the Leave Campaign.
CyclopsRock
Member
To what end? So voters can use their time machine's to travel back and un-trigger A50?
anonymous_abc
Member
Commander Jameson
Member
Tory MP Anne Marie Morris recorded saying, "Now we get to the real n****r in the woodpile which is in two years what happens if there is no deal?" during launch of report into financial services post-Brexit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-racist-brexit-recording_uk_59638608e4b02e9bdb0e2c77
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-racist-brexit-recording_uk_59638608e4b02e9bdb0e2c77
BBC comment sections have been a den of stupidity for a while. You'll always find the highest rated comments to be Eurosceptic.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Who in their right mind would think that shit is OK to say?
Shows how out of touch some
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