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[hohoXD123]

Interesting editorial from Tony Blair in the New Statesman.

He has a lot to say, but here's a few quotes -











http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ange-terms-brexit-labours-ambiguity-cant-last

It's long, but worth a read. He speaks a lot of sense.

Not sure how he can say that both main parties remain committed to leaving the single market, then see that the election result showed that the two party system is now stronger than ever before and then come to the conclusion that the public rejected hard Brexit. What is he basing that assumption on? If he's hiding behind "large numbers" of people rejecting hard Brexit then that's meaningless, I'm sure large numbers of people would vote for ridiculous policies the majority don't want.

Edit: here's another extract from the guardian on this

Along with the comments, Blair’s institute has released polling conducted on its behalf which shows, among other findings, that the majority of Britons are split on whether they would like a so-called soft or hard Brexit. “The British people’s attitude to Europe is ambivalent,” Blair said. “They do think Brexit means Brexit and, for now, there is no groundswell for a second referendum.

“But they want a strong relationship with Europe. A majority oppose hard Brexit. The opposition to free movement of people, once you break it down, is much more nuanced.”

Overall, he concludes, the UK “is deeply divided – between young and old, metropolitan and outside the cities, better off and worse off”.

Would be interesting to see these figures

 

[Beefy]

Corbyn crowd in Southampton is huge fam

 

[Rodelero]

Not sure how he can say that both main parties remain committed to leaving the single market, then see that the election result showed that the two party system is now stronger than ever before and then come to the conclusion that the public rejected hard Brexit. What is he basing that assumption on? If he's hiding behind "large numbers" of people rejecting hard Brexit then that's meaningless, I'm sure large numbers of people would vote for ridiculous policies the majority don't want.

Would be interesting to see these figures

Blair is correct. If polling can be remotely believed, there is nowhere near majority support for Hard Brexit, but then, there is also quite a lot of polling indicating that, in another referendum, Remain would win.

Survation on 1st July:

On the customs union:
Leave the customs union - 24%
Pay a fee for access to customs union - 32%
Remain - 36%
Don't Know - 6%

On the referendum question:
Remain 54%
Leave 46%

At least in terms of public sentiment, the direction of travel is obviously going to be towards Remain or a Soft Brexit. Brexit was always a fantasy. It meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people. A lot of Brexit voters voted for Brexit thinking things would happen that either have not happened, will not happen, or cannot happen. As that reality crystalises, support is going to start to fritter away. There will of course be some very hard headed individuals who can't accept they got it wrong. There will also be a hardcore of Brexit voters that think that we're waging some kind of war against the EUSSR, that we should just 'leave' right away and not pay a penny, et cetera et cetera. There will however be a great deal (millions of people) that are starting to wonder what the hell they've voted for.

The whole Brexit argument has essentially been about two sides telling very different stories about what Brexit will be. Remainers told the Project Fear tale, explaining how damaging Brexit would be to our country. Brexiteers told a whole range of tales to attract different people to their side. Remainers went into the vote fearing Brexit and Brexiteers went into it thinking that they'd get the specific range of things they wanted.

Now is time for us to discover which tales were true and which were false. Arrogant Brexit voters have spent the last twelve months, while Brexit was delayed by May's holding back of A 50 and then her decision to hold an election saying that Project Fear was all exaggeration and nonsense, but now we're actually in the thick of it? Project Fear is starting to seem like reality, and a lot of the tales spun by Brexit campaigners are falling apart, some because we're heading towards the wrong type of deal, some because they were simply lies. At the end of it Project Fear is going to seem, at worst, like an exaggerated tale.

The news on Brexit is starting to look fairly depressing. The government has lost the people's trust, not just on Brexit, but on pretty much everything else too. The timing is not right for the push to stop this nonsense, but I do think there will be a moment when it becomes palatable, probably within the next twelve months.

 

[Horsefly]

Corbyn crowd in Southampton is huge fam

who *are* these people?

 

[D4Danger]

who *are* these people?

What do you mean?

 

[Monty Mole]

Here is an interesting graph. It shows that this has been the longest streak in public spending cuts since the second world war.

Isn't our national debt also the largest since the second world war though, since the 2008 bailout?

 

[TeddyBoy]

What do you mean?

There was another poster (or possibly the same one), who referred to the people at Corbyn rallies as potentially unrepresentative of the British public.

I'd argue Corbyn is quite divisive but still has a very healthy fanbase.

 

[Horsefly]

There was another poster (or possibly the same one), who referred to the people at Corbyn rallies as potentially unrepresentative of the British public.

I'd argue Corbyn is quite divisive but still has a very healthy fanbase.

Correct!

I'm sold the narrative that Corbyn is popular with the people due to these crowds, but flood these events with Corbyn supporters and it's no longer "the people" he's popular with, it's just existing Corbyn supporters.

If this is the case then the narrative no longer holds true, the evidence is manufactured. It's just propaganda.

Now, as I say, I don't know. I've yet to see anything resembling a fact around this, but I'm sure as hell going to reject every anecdote. A politician in Westminster is still a politician in Westminster, and they should all be scrutinised to the same degree.

If this is the start of a people-led movement then so be it, but right now I can't separate it from the same actions taking by global corporations to create media narratives to sell their brand and create brand loyalty.


Simply put, I'm yet to recognise him as the Jam-Jesus that some of this messaging makes out.

 

[D4Danger]

I don't know what you think this is. He's just doing a tour of marginal seats, giving the same basic speech and a few hundred people come out to see him and listen to what he says. It's not a conspiracy.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I never said they were idiots. You're putting words in my mouth.

So what did you mean?

 

[Beefy]

Chancellor Philip Hammond 'says public sector workers overpaid'

Philip Hammond is at the centre of a furious row with his own Cabinet colleagues after it was claimed he told them public sector workers were overpaid.

According to The Sunday Times, at last Tuesday's meeting the Chancellor refused to lift the controversial 1% cap on wages for public sector workers because they receive bigger pensions.

"Public sector workers are overpaid when you take into account pensions," he is reported to have said, before saying train drivers were "ludicrously overpaid".

His comments have emerged after senior Tories called for a rethink on the public sector pay cap, claiming it badly damaged the Conservatives in last month's general election.

The TUC calculates the real-terms wages of prison officers, paramedics and NHS dieticians are all down more than £3,800 a year compared with seven years ago. Firefighters are down nearly £2,900 and teachers £2,500

Source: http://news.sky.com/story/chancellor-philip-hammond-says-public-sector-workers-overpaid-10950268

Fuck Hammond

 

[Uzzy]

That's the second anti-Hammond story to have leaked from the cabinet in the last few days. Someone's on manoeuvres.

 

[cabot]

Ah yes, a government in power with little authority, expecting much more damagaing leaks to members in the limelight!

 

[Maledict]

Yeah, and there was a harsh anti-Boris story in the mail as well. People definitely laying the ground for the leadership battle to come.

 

[Theonik]

Let them fight.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

And now Hammond is on the BBC defending his statements.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40623343

Brave move.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

And now Hammond is on the BBC defending his statements.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40623343

Brave move.

"so labour have increased their change in vote share the most since ww2 on a platform of hope and equality and my party had taken a beating for capping the public sector.

I know what I will do, essentially say we could take even more money and they are just moaners wanting a hand out and that while some need to use food banks now they will be living the life of luxury come retirement. That will help me become leader and gain us votes. "

 

[twofoldd]

BBC Reality Check: Is public sector pay higher than private sector? (linked in the article SlipperyFishes linked).

Another thing that makes this comparison tricky is that staff in the public sector tend to have better pension provision, with earnings-related schemes still common in the public sector but unusual in the private. This is not reflected in the average earnings figures.

Bonus payments are more common in the private sector and they are also not included in these average earnings figures.

The IFS has warned that if the government's current plans are implemented, the gap between public and private sector pay will return to levels last seen in the 2000s, when there were considerable difficulties in recruiting and retaining staff.

The claim: Average public sector pay is higher than private sector, even adjusted for qualifications

Reality Check verdict: It is a difficult comparison to make, but IFS calculations suggest that Lord Lamont is probably right. However, in recent years private sector pay has been growing faster than public sector pay and the gap between public and private pay is expected to continue to narrow in the coming years if current government policies are implemented.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40480766

Interesting. Not quite what I expected.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Chancellor Philip Hammond 'says public sector workers overpaid'



Source: http://news.sky.com/story/chancellor-philip-hammond-says-public-sector-workers-overpaid-10950268

Fuck Hammond

Except for MPs, of course, who deserve wage increases well over that 1%. Fucking fucker.

 

[Crispy75]

Public sector pay isn't too high.
Private sector pay is to low.

 

[Daffy Duck]

Public sector pay isn't too high.
Private sector pay is to low.

Pretty much.

 

[kmag]

Are train drivers actually public sector workers?

 

[Maledict]

People need to remember there are many reasons for that gap. One of the biggest being that most low paid public sector jobs aren't actually done by the public sector anymore - we outsourced them to private contractors. Binmen, dinner ladies, litter collectors, leisure centre workers - most of the low paid, minimum wage public sector jobs are now done by the private sector.

When I started in local government at scale 3 16 years ago, the bulk of staff were at the senior officer and scale officer grades (the two lowest paid bands). The vast majority of those jobs simply don't exist in the public sector anymore.

 

[Theonik]

They did say they adjusted for qualifications though so it'd be interesting to see comparisons with bands. On a completely anecdotal note I know people who started in government departments after failing their A-levels making some £30k.

 

[travisbickle]

They did say they adjusted for qualifications though so it'd be interesting to see comparisons with bands. On a completely anecdotal note I know people who started in government departments after failing their A-levels making some £30k.

Did they have family members in the department?

 

[CyclopsRock]

Go on Kezia, you sly fox.

 

[Theonik]

Did they have family members in the department?

Don't think so.

 

[Fernando Fernandez]

who *are* these people?

I was there! Whole square was full up and seemed quite a mix of all sorts there. Good speech but I'm sure he's going to be saying the same speech up and down the country. The turn out in Bournemouth after was strong too and that's full of old dears.

 

[travisbickle]

Don't think so.

It was a reference to a topic about someone who got a government job through nepotism.

But I'm surprised you say they have only GCSE and are in government roles.

I live in Korea, and you have to take a very difficult examination, after completing a degree, to even get the opportunity to apply for a government position.

My wife asked me what it's like in the UK, and I thought you at least needed a degree?

 

[Theonik]

It was a reference to a topic about someone who got a government job through nepotism.

But I'm surprised you say they have only GCSE and are in government roles.

I live in Korea, and you have to take a very difficult examination, after completing a degree, to even get the opportunity to apply for a government position.

My wife asked me what it's like in the UK, and I thought you at least needed a degree?

They did do A-Level. Just didn't do well in them. But yes you can land government jobs without a degree. Not that it's a bad thing imo. Most university degrees are pretty useless for employment purposes. Hell we even ask cashiers to have actual degrees these days for erm reasons?

But yeah my point was that there are many government jobs, even entry level ones that will pay close to the median salary or better.

 

[theaface]

That's the second anti-Hammond story to have leaked from the cabinet in the last few days. Someone's on manoeuvres.

Agreed. Sky News seem to picking up this line of thinking as well with an opinion piece on the internal power struggle (again). Crush the saboteur!

 

[Maledict]

They did say they adjusted for qualifications though so it'd be interesting to see comparisons with bands. On a completely anecdotal note I know people who started in government departments after failing their A-levels making some £30k.

Of course the entire thing is a nonsense - of the comparable jobs where you directly compare private to public sector, private sector *always* get paid a lot more.

Private school teachers?
Chief executives?
Private health care workers?

It's so ludicrous - and the fact the tories always complain about labour talking of class warfare is so hypocritical.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Its disengenious at best,. Support workers, one of the hardest, and most important jobs in the public sector, struggle to break 16k a year. Also if you ever fuck up you'll be dragged to death by the newspapers.

Meanwhile I'm doing something not particularly hard in private sector getting paid multiple times that.

Edit: you wouldn't need a degree to do my job either, my degrees are in totally different subjects.

 

[Spuck-uk]

They did do A-Level. Just didn't do well in them. But yes you can land government jobs without a degree. Not that it's a bad thing imo. Most university degrees are pretty useless for employment purposes. Hell we even ask cashiers to have actual degrees these days for erm reasons?

But yeah my point was that there are many government jobs, even entry level ones that will pay close to the median salary or better.

Like for like public sector jobs pay worse. At least the ones I've looked at applying for, IT wages in government are hilariously low.

 

[Maledict]

Like for like public sector jobs pay worse. At least the ones I've looked at applying for, IT wages in government are hilariously low.

IT is another good example - we were taught in uni that public sector IT is the absolute bottom of the pile salary and job quality wise.

Any equivalent job is always lower paid in the public sector. Be it at the top of the pile or the bottom, at every level comparable jobs pay less. The only way you can say otherwise is if you just take average salaries as a whole across both sectors and completely ignore every single aspect of context. Which would be a horrendous misuse of statistics and numbers in order to lie to push a political point. Which no-one would ever do.

 

[CyclopsRock]

There are obviously benefits to working in the public sector though, otherwise no one would work there if they were good enough for the private sector.

 

[Burai]

There are obviously benefits to working in the public sector though, otherwise no one would work there if they were good enough for the private sector.

Indeed. Going back to the example of public sector IT jobs, I've dealt with IT managers in local authorities who don't understand what a spanned zip file is or know how to access an FTP. The best one was a guy who couldn't understand why a database we sent him and he installed to his My Documents couldn't be seen on 10 other PCs. "why doesn't it just work?" he exasperatedly cried down the phone.

 

[Theonik]

Like for like public sector jobs pay worse. At least the ones I've looked at applying for, IT wages in government are hilariously low.

I mean it all depends. I'd like to see this substantiated rather than go with anecdotal evidence.

 

[Auctopus]

Corbyn crowd in Southampton is huge fam

Guildhall Square seems like a pretty good venue for Corbyn. It's a little far from Uni of Southampton Campus (funnily enough, it's directly outside their corporate office) but it's pretty close to Solent and the actual city centre.

 

[Uzzy]

Agreed. Sky News seem to picking up this line of thinking as well with an opinion piece on the internal power struggle (again). Crush the saboteur!

Third one today in the Telegraph. Apparently Hammond's part of an establishment plot to frustrate Brexit!

Philip Hammond is deliberately working to "frustrate" Brexit and treating pro-Leave ministers like "pirates who have taken him prisoner", a Cabinet minister has told The Telegraph, in an extraordinary attack on one of the most senior members of the Government.

Branding the Chancellor and his Treasury "the Establishment", the furious senior minister warned of a deep split over how to leave the European Union, launching all-out war as talks restart in Brussels on Monday.

They also revealed a plot to keep a weakened Theresa May in Number 10 in a bid to prevent an early leadership race, warning of a "critical moment" as David Davis flies out to meet his rival negotiators for discussions to set the terms of engagement.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Tell you what, the Tories know how to fuck each other. Cameron was too good, he kept them all locked up.

 

[theaface]

Tell you what, the Tories know how to fuck each other. Cameron was too good, he kept them all locked up.

Eh, he still gave the loonies the referendum they were frothing at the mouth for and the rest is history.

Third one today in the Telegraph. Apparently Hammond's part of an establishment plot to frustrate Brexit!

 

[TimmmV]

IT is another good example - we were taught in uni that public sector IT is the absolute bottom of the pile salary and job quality wise.

Any equivalent job is always lower paid in the public sector. Be it at the top of the pile or the bottom, at every level comparable jobs pay less. The only way you can say otherwise is if you just take average salaries as a whole across both sectors and completely ignore every single aspect of context. Which would be a horrendous misuse of statistics and numbers in order to lie to push a political point. Which no-one would ever do.

There are obviously benefits to working in the public sector though, otherwise no one would work there if they were good enough for the private sector.

To add with anecodtal evidence - my mum is a project manager for the civil service and has like 15-20 years of experience, and i think gets paid just under £30k, she'd probably get paid nearly double that if she worked in the private sector.

Although she wouldn't get the same level of pension (although this hasn't been offered to new staff for a while now), over 30 days holiday a year, and that policy where if you work over contracted hours one week you get told to take it as holidays another time. IIRC their level of maternity pay is great too, and they're also a lot more sympathetic to her taking time off sick or working from home than a private company would be.

So yeah there are benefits, but tbh they seem best either for old people, or for people looking to start a family. Otherwise taking the better salary in the private sector is usually way better

 

[Huw_Dawson]

The Tory war in the papers is great. Because May isn't going it is going to last for the entire summer.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The Tory war in the papers is great. Because May isn't going it is going to last for the entire summer.

yeah, what I don't think the Conservatives realised is that keeping May on means nothing in terms of damage avoidance if they then spend all of that period sniping at each other.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

To add with anecodtal evidence - my mum is a project manager for the civil service and has like 15-20 years of experience, and i think gets paid just under £30k, she'd probably get paid nearly double that if she worked in the private sector.

Although she wouldn't get the same level of pension (although this hasn't been offered to new staff for a while now), over 30 days holiday a year, and that policy where if you work over contracted hours one week you get told to take it as holidays another time. IIRC their level of maternity pay is great too, and they're also a lot more sympathetic to her taking time off sick or working from home than a private company would be.

So yeah there are benefits, but tbh they seem best either for old people, or for people looking to start a family. Otherwise taking the better salary in the private sector is usually way better

The public sector does have some great benefits, my wife is in the private sector and she doesn't get half what I do.

Problem is that those 'benefits' are really just things everyone should have as well as comparable pay.

 

[Maledict]

yeah, what I don't think the Conservatives realised is that keeping May on means nothing in terms of damage avoidance if they then spend all of that period sniping at each other.

I think they are well aware of it - the problem is it's classical game theory in action.

If everyone keeps quiet and plays nice, May stays on, the party slowly recovers etc.

But, if one person starts briefing against the others and plotting for the leadership, that person will substantially increase their chances of winning the inevitable leadership election.

So they all end up blasting each other in public even though they know it's a dumb thing to do, because they can't afford to not too.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I think they are well aware of it - the problem is it's classical game theory in action.

If everyone keeps quiet and plays nice, May stays on, the party slowly recovers etc.

But, if one person starts briefing against the others and plotting for the leadership, that person will substantially increase their chances of winning the inevitable leadership election.

So they all end up blasting each other in public even though they know it's a dumb thing to do, because they can't afford to not too.

Right, but I'm saying that once you realise the consequence of the prisoner's dilemma is everyone sniping, the conclusion becomes: it would be better to just buck May and have the leadership contest now.

She'll be gone by the conference's end.

 

[kmag]

To add with anecodtal evidence - my mum is a project manager for the civil service and has like 15-20 years of experience, and i think gets paid just under £30k, she'd probably get paid nearly double that if she worked in the private sector.

Although she wouldn't get the same level of pension (although this hasn't been offered to new staff for a while now), over 30 days holiday a year, and that policy where if you work over contracted hours one week you get told to take it as holidays another time. IIRC their level of maternity pay is great too, and they're also a lot more sympathetic to her taking time off sick or working from home than a private company would be.

So yeah there are benefits, but tbh they seem best either for old people, or for people looking to start a family. Otherwise taking the better salary in the private sector is usually way better

At lower educational levels the public sector pays more (and pretty much always has), but if you have a degree or equivalent education the opposite is true.

 

[TimmmV]

The public sector does have some great benefits, my wife is in the private sector and she doesn't get half what I do.

Problem is that those 'benefits' are really just things everyone should have as well as comparable pay.

Yep, completely agree.

She works with a few ardent Tories there, who would complain about benefits culture etc etc, but then soon changed their tune and got their partners jobs there when they wanted kids, just so they could use the maternity/paternity benefits that are way better than anything offered in the private sector