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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.

Opportunistic, how? I'm not sure how he puts himself or his personal issues ahead of the country. Which Brown is definitely guilty of. Cameron and the tories' internal squabbles also do such a thing.

When he was in government, he & Balls were Browns chief advisers. Out of government he bends with the wind, echoing what he thinks the public want whether it is feasible or not and spending the same money five thousand times, and most recently trying to make political capital out of the fact that a lot of tory mp's didn't follow Cameron's lead in the marriage bill. I felt like, ugh, can't you just celebrate what parliment was able to do here? We all know that the tory right is filled with creeps.
 
Opportunistic, how? I'm not sure how he puts himself or his personal issues ahead of the country. Which Brown is definitely guilty of. Cameron and the tories' internal squabbles also do such a thing.

Opportunistic by opposing the academy changes despite them being identical in nature to what he voted through while Labour were in power. Opportunistic by opposing NHS changes despite them being identical to Labour's changes which he voted through. Calling the current housing benefit changes a "bedroom tax" despite Labour making literally identical changes to private sector housing benefit while in government. Opposing the £9k uni fees and then refusing to say whether he would reverse them in 2015 if they got in power. Opposing literally every single cut by saying they would reintroduce the bankers bonus tax to keep it around, spending said bonus tax something like 3x over on their estimates, 7x over on IFS estimates and 9x over on Treasury estimates. Now Ed has just replaced the mansion tax with the bonus tax. Acting as if Labour left behind a golden economic legacy for the current government similar to the one Labour received in 1997.

These are just a few of the opportunistic acts that Ed has undertaken as LOTO.

I know it is the opposition's job to oppose, but so many of their decisions have been cynically made with no clear policy behind their opposition.
 

PJV3

Member
It's what every opposition does, fly kites, make mischief and be vague. then in the run up to the election reveal policy.

Labour won't say anything concrete until almost 2015. And nobody really cares about the opposition until election time anyway. They rarely win elections, governments lose them.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Oppositions don't seem to be what they used to be (grumpy old man face). Their primary duty is to hold the government to account for what it does, not to oppose for opposition's sake.

Recent oppositions appear to have got the two things confused a bit.
 

PJV3

Member
Oppositions don't seem to be what they used to be (grumpy old man face). Their primary duty is to hold the government to account for what it does, not to oppose for opposition's sake.

Recent oppositions appear to have got the two things confused a bit.

Labour used to have policy decided at conference, and the party had a much broader membership in terms of real leftists. The media and allegedly the people didn't like disunity, and so we now have the big 2 parties parroting whatever the leadership come up with. Which seems to based on triangulation and focus groups.

People get the politicians they deserve.
 
Labour used to have policy decided at conference, and the party had a much broader membership in terms of real leftists. The media and allegedly the people didn't like disunity, and so we now have the big 2 parties parroting whatever the leadership come up with. Which seems to based on triangulation and focus groups.

People get the politicians they deserve.

There's many, many things you can accuse the tory party of, but unity is not one of them
 

PJV3

Member
There's many, many things you can accuse the tory party of, but unity is not one of them

Labour just expelled everyone instead.
The Tories are on most issues a formidable unit, it's really only the EU that sets them off, the rebellion over Lords reform suited the leadership.
 
Labour just expelled everyone instead.
The Tories are on most issues a formidable unit, it's really only the EU that sets them off, the rebellion over Lords reform suited the leadership.

Not really. The Lords reform rebellion killed of boundary changes that would have removed the pro-Labour bias in the electoral system. Right now the Tories need a +9 net to win a 1 seat majority, Labour need a net +3 to win a 1 seat majority. In fact until Con +3 Labour are the largest party despite receiving fewer votes because their seats have fewer electors on average because they are strong in inner cities, Scotland and Wales which have over-representation in the HoC.

The boundary reforms would have removed this bias so that both parties would be about equal, though because of turnout differentials Labour would require fewer votes for a majority.
 

PJV3

Member
Not really. The Lords reform rebellion killed of boundary changes that would have removed the pro-Labour bias in the electoral system. Right now the Tories need a +9 net to win a 1 seat majority, Labour need a net +3 to win a 1 seat majority. In fact until Con +3 Labour are the largest party despite receiving fewer votes because their seats have fewer electors on average because they are strong in inner cities, Scotland and Wales which have over-representation in the HoC.

The boundary reforms would have removed this bias so that both parties would be about equal, though because of turnout differentials Labour would require fewer votes for a majority.

Tories don't want a HoL being elected via PR, it would cast doubt on the legitimacy of the commons, leading enevitably to real voting reform in the commons.

If that happened they would almost certainly never form a majority government again, I think the conservatives were expecting to have their cake and eat it. but Clegg actually grew some balls for a change.
 
I don't think that the party leadership exactly instigated it, but they probably smiled on it given that it would have happened either way, and clegg put oil on the fire by going back on his word(which everyone should have been used to by then anyway...)
 
Tories don't want a HoL being elected via PR, it would cast doubt on the legitimacy of the commons, leading enevitably to real voting reform in the commons.

If that happened they would almost certainly never form a majority government again, I think the conservatives were expecting to have their cake and eat it. but Clegg actually grew some balls for a change.

The reforms proposed were a mess. Single 15 year terms, it gives the impression of democratic legitimacy without the legitimacy. They were designed to give the minority party the balance of power in the HoL for eternity, designed by Lib Dems for Lib Dems.

Honestly, they were very poorly thought out and even Labour MPs had problems with them because it gave the Lib Dems much more power than they deserve, and with 15 year terms it locked that power in for a long time.

I have no problem with the idea of an elected upper house, but the point of the Lords is to make unpopular decisions, it was because of them that we don't have mandatory ID cards, it was because of them that 90-day detention was never really on the cards. If we continue to politicise the Lords and fill it up with politicians eager to climb up the greasy pole then that independent thinking all goes away. What we have now is the least worst solution, look at the political gridlock in the US, and they are much, much less partisan than we are over here. We have generations of people voting for a party because their parents did and where in the US voters like to split the powers and a single party controlling the House, Senate and the Presidency is relatively uncommon. That would not be the case in the UK and it worries me.
 

PJV3

Member
I don't think that the party leadership exactly instigated it, but they probably smiled on it given that it would have happened either way, and clegg put oil on the fire by going back on his word(which everyone should have been used to by then anyway...)

Yeah, that's how I saw it.
Combined with Labour playing mischief, an awful way to decide constitutional matters.
None of the parties can claim the moral high ground, or be trusted.

Just have open referendums with all viable options, voting method and rules etc.

@Zomg
just like AV, Clegg was trying to sell something that wasn't his preferred option, he has been naive beyond belief. The tory compromise is always something nobody wants, and yes the legislation was awful as a result.
 

Arksy

Member
Electoral boundries in Australia are usually determined by the Supreme Court of each state. It's a political function but it's basically the only exception to the separation of powers and they're usually quite fair in that each constituency has to have the same number of people.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Gove really is awful. I cannot believe the pillock gets so much praise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/feb/16/historians-michael-gove-curriculum

So what? History is big - so what you going to concentrate on? History of Britain seems OK to me. Better (for local consumption) than history of Iceland (boring) or of China (even more boring, at least for fairly long periods). History is an old man's game, unlike (say) mathematics you need a sense of time before you get a sense of history.

History being compulsory irritates me. You can get a decent sense of history by reading, say, W N Weech's History of the World - take you maybe two months to get through it at worst. Why compel people, youngsters, to spend three years studying what they can pick up in later life by reading a book?
 

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
Electoral boundries in Australia are usually determined by the Supreme Court of each state. It's a political function but it's basically the only exception to the separation of powers and they're usually quite fair in that each constituency has to have the same number of people.

I don't think this is true at all.

The Australian Electoral Commission is responsible for the the Federal electoral boundaries. I'm pretty sure it's just a normal government agency and not tied to the courts at all.
 

Jackpot

Banned
So what? History is big - so what you going to concentrate on? History of Britain seems OK to me. Better (for local consumption) than history of Iceland (boring) or of China (even more boring, at least for fairly long periods). History is an old man's game, unlike (say) mathematics you need a sense of time before you get a sense of history.

Um, there's a slight difference between having a well-rounded history education with a primary focus on your homeland and focusing on domestic history to the exclusion of all other countries like the article detailed.

History being compulsory irritates me. You can get a decent sense of history by reading, say, W N Weech's History of the World - take you maybe two months to get through it at worst. Why compel people, youngsters, to spend three years studying what they can pick up in later life by reading a book?

smh. Yeah, you only need two months to get a thorough grasp of the history of the entire human race. Shit, why not just send them to wikipedia...

IDS is showing how detached he is from reality again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21490542

Duncan Smith: Shelf-stacking is more important than geology

A geology graduate recently won a legal victory over the back-to-work scheme.

But Mr Duncan Smith warned against assuming that geology was more important than supermarket work.

Geology graduate Cait Reilly, 24, argued at the Appeal Court that her unpaid work placement at Poundland, which she had been required to undertake in return for continued benefits payments, breached laws on forced labour.

Although Miss Reilly won the case, Mr Duncan Smith said the judges had decided her argument that the scheme breached her human rights was "rubbish".

Commenting further on the case, Mr Duncan Smith said: "I understand she said she wasn't paid. She was paid jobseeker's allowance, by the taxpayer, to do this.

"I'm sorry, but there is a group of people out there who think they're too good for this kind of stuff.

"The next time somebody goes in - those smart people who say there's something wrong with this - they go into their supermarket, ask themselves this simple question, when they can't find the food they want on the shelves, who is more important - them, the geologist, or the person who stacked the shelves?"

Mr Duncan Smith argued that "most young people love" their work experience placements.

It was the government's "most successful" back-to-work scheme, he said: "It's been so successful that over half of those kids have left benefits."

Miss Reilly said that in November 2011 she had to leave her voluntary work at a local museum and work unpaid at the Poundland store in Kings Heath, Birmingham, under a scheme known as the "sector-based work academy".

"Those two weeks were a complete waste of my time, as the experience did not help me get a job," she said, after the court ruling on 12 February.

"I was not given any training and I was left with no time to do my voluntary work or search for other jobs.

"The only beneficiary was Poundland, a multi-million pound company. Later I found out that I should never have been told the placement was compulsory.

"I don't think I am above working in shops like Poundland. I now work part-time in a supermarket. It is just that I expect to get paid for working."
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
smh. Yeah, you only need two months to get a thorough grasp of the history of the entire human race. Shit, why not just send them to wikipedia...

That's my point (I think maybe you missed it). Three years of study at school level at, say 2 hours a week amounts to about two months of reading at 4 hours a day.

Now I'm not claiming by any means that a summary history is sufficient for a grasp of history of the whole human race, but it is a damn good starting point. I've read a lot of history over the last two years - of Germany. China, Britain, religious history, history of science, of medicine, social history, political history, economic history and so on.

But that much history is just too damn much to fit in a secondary school curriculum alongside all the other stuff. It's too much to expect.

Why should it be compulsory at all? That's the first question, before we start getting into how much of it should be compulsory.

And it it is to be compulsory, then you have to be very selective about what is in it in order to get any depth at all.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
So what? History is big - so what you going to concentrate on? History of Britain seems OK to me. Better (for local consumption) than history of Iceland (boring) or of China (even more boring, at least for fairly long periods). History is an old man's game, unlike (say) mathematics you need a sense of time before you get a sense of history.

History being compulsory irritates me. You can get a decent sense of history by reading, say, W N Weech's History of the World - take you maybe two months to get through it at worst. Why compel people, youngsters, to spend three years studying what they can pick up in later life by reading a book?


You can pick up mathematical skills later in life - a calculator/computer program will get you far enough? You can learn biology later in life? Why bother? ;)


The point of history in schools is as much about teaching critical thinking as it is about teaching the actual events that preceded us. We do already learn about good chunks of the history of Britain (I'd change some of the specifics myself but there you go). You cannot channel everything through the prism of Britain - intellectual developments would only be seen through the prism of how it affected Britain, rather than the ideas themselves, colonial developments through the prism of Britain rather than reality etc. Gove lacks the skills to be able to personally write such a curriculum. Also, I believe history is not compulsory at GCSE level, though that may have changed under this current government.

Personally, and it seems out of character for Gove not to have done this, I would suggest a less restrictive history curriculum. The teachers - within reason - can teach to their interests. At the end of the day you cannot teach everyone enough about anything, not even a specific topic at this level. I have spoken to Russell groups history admissions tutors, for what its worth, and this is an idea some of them have pushed for. At many universities the first year is all about learning a little about everything from around the medieval era to the end of WWII, shaped mostly because most students (those who chose to study history, no less) don't know enough. My criticism of Gove is not because the curriculum he is hinting at does not feature Icelandic history or Chinese history, but because it is intellectually narrow.

An even bigger problem is that Gove is ignoring all the experts and just writing/changing the curriculum on a whim.
 
British history is stupidly rich and a rival for any, and whichever period you focus on you need to inject a rudimentary knowledge of foreigners anyway....just so you know who we were fighting.

These academics are stroking their own cocks.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Personally, and it seems out of character for Gove not to have done this, I would suggest a less restrictive history curriculum. The teachers - within reason - can teach to their interests. At the end of the day you cannot teach everyone enough about anything, not even a specific topic at this level. I have spoken to Russell groups history admissions tutors, for what its worth, and this is an idea some of them have pushed for. At many universities the first year is all about learning a little about everything from around the medieval era to the end of WWII, shaped mostly because most students (those who chose to study history, no less) don't know enough.

I'm all in favour of that. One of the unexpected joys of my youth (way before there was such a thing as a national curriculum) was meeting other kids on holiday and talking with them - and one of the things that was best for conversation was always what we were doing in history at school, because everybody was doing something different. I'd meet kids who knew lots about the Romans and Macedonians, or about the late Victorians, or about late mediaeval, whereas I was stuck in the Tudors'n'Stuarts which for some reason they found fascinating. No reason everyone should have to learn the same stuff.

Might pick up your other points a bit later.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Hopefully we can get our History education as woefully one-sided as America's own curriculum! Good going Gove, you incompetent cunt.
 

defel

Member
Looking back I never really took away much history from my history classes. The useful things were the academic skills that go into the subject: writing an essay, arguing a point of view, using evidence to back up your argument etc. History is a great conduit for all of these skills. Ask me stuff about the English civil war of French Huguenots and I literally couldn't tell you a thing, despite the fact I studied it in moderate detail for two years.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
I'm all in favour of that. One of the unexpected joys of my youth (way before there was such a thing as a national curriculum) was meeting other kids on holiday and talking with them - and one of the things that was best for conversation was always what we were doing in history at school, because everybody was doing something different. I'd meet kids who knew lots about the Romans and Macedonians, or about the late Victorians, or about late mediaeval, whereas I was stuck in the Tudors'n'Stuarts which for some reason they found fascinating. No reason everyone should have to learn the same stuff.

Might pick up your other points a bit later.

Exactly, and as I say, many of the cock-stroking academics actually want this diversity to be the case. Gove wants to create a BRITISH curriculum, which I think is an absolute mistake. It goes in with preconceived ideas and biases, which I believe would be more harmful than just random historical periods being studied...


Looking back I never really took away much history from my history classes. The useful things were the academic skills that go into the subject: writing an essay, arguing a point of view, using evidence to back up your argument etc. History is a great conduit for all of these skills. Ask me stuff about the English civil war of French Huguenots and I literally couldn't tell you a thing, despite the fact I studied it in moderate detail for two years.


Yes, that is the point of it. I think teaching BRITISH history wold be more focused on self-aggrandisement and nationalism rather than just teaching scattershot but interesting topics, even if they ended up being parts of British history.



As for that IDS stream of garbage... my goodness. The lady in question has been so horribly mischaracterised - she was looking for jobs (and as I understand it, now has a similar shelf-stacking job with the exception being that she is paid a wage for it) and was not work-shy in the slightest. I don't agree with workfare - it is tantamount to slavery - but even by its own internal logic the idea of switching her from something providing relevant and enjoyable work experience for something equally unpaid yet menial that also subsidises a massive corporation is utterly absurd.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Hopefully we can get our History education as woefully one-sided as America's own curriculum! Good going Gove, you incompetent cunt.

Yeah. Let's stick to the issues shall we?

Looking back I never really took away much history from my history classes. The useful things were the academic skills that go into the subject: writing an essay, arguing a point of view, using evidence to back up your argument etc. History is a great conduit for all of these skills. Ask me stuff about the English civil war of French Huguenots and I literally couldn't tell you a thing, despite the fact I studied it in moderate detail for two years.

I think you're right. But there's a whole bunch of other subjects that'll do the same thing (english, law, sociology, any of the humanities basically), and you're all the more likely to learn the skills if you are doing it in a subject you have some interest in.

If education is about this sort of skills thing, then it really doesn't matter which subject you pick it up from (though it does matter a lot which teacher you have). I really can't see the case from the average child's point of view of slapping in a whole bunch of compulsory subjects and compulsory curricula if what matters is the basic analytic skills which might be better addressed some other way or by doing something else in more depth.
 

Dambrosi

Banned
IDS is showing how detached he is from reality again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21490542
I heard about this case a couple of years ago. Good to see it worked out for her. Hopefully, this also means at least a major rethink of the whole "work-for-benefits" thing, which I always thought breached some human rights legislation, but now it's nice to have some confirmation of such.
I would totally do a work placement for a couple of weeks for free, just as a change of scene, but I don't want my benefits tied to it, nor would I want it to be compulsory, as if I wouldn't jump at the chance myself.

As for IDS, sounds like grapes so sour they're fermenting into vinegar instead of wine.

And regarding the history curriculum, I don't know if I want any politician deciding which bits of history should or should not be taught, mostly according to their own biases - and especially not that slimy xenophobic bastard Gove. Frankly, I think there should be an independent board to decide such things.
 
IDS just showing he has absolutly no understanding of the situtaion.
Hes attacking a young girl and trying to paint her as something shes not; she is now working paid in a supermarket.

We know what the D stands for and its not Duncan.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I heard about this case a couple of years ago. Good to see it worked out for her. Hopefully, this also means at least a major rethink of the whole "work-for-benefits" thing, which I always thought breached some human rights legislation, but now it's nice to have some confirmation of such.
I would totally do a work placement for a couple of weeks for free, just as a change of scene, but I don't want my benefits tied to it, nor would I want it to be compulsory, as if I wouldn't jump at the chance myself.

I don't think that a major rethink is on the cards, not if you look closely at the Court of Appeal judgment. It wasn't decided on human rights grounds at all, but on the rather narrow ground that the enabling legislation stated that the scheme of work was to be prescribed in regulations, but the regulations did not prescribe (but merely named) the scheme. As I understand it, replacement regulations were issued last Tuesday.
 

Dambrosi

Banned
I don't think that a major rethink is on the cards, not if you look closely at the Court of Appeal judgment. It wasn't decided on human rights grounds at all, but on the rather narrow ground that the enabling legislation stated that the scheme of work was to be prescribed in regulations, but the regulations did not prescribe (but merely named) the scheme. As I understand it, replacement regulations were issued last Tuesday.
Ah, so a technicality, then? And it's already been solved, you say?

So why the barbed character assassination, thinly-veiled annoyance and false equivalencies from IDS? Is he really that dumb?

Again, I have nothing against voluntary and temporary work placements. It's when your benefits are tied to them and they become compulsory that they become dole slavery.
 
Ah, so a technicality, then? And it's already been solved, you say?

So why the barbed character assassination, thinly-veiled annoyance and false equivalencies from IDS? Is he really that dumb?

Again, I have nothing against voluntary and temporary work placements. It's when your benefits are tied to them and they become compulsory that they become dole slavery.

Probably because of all the negative publicity it's brought on it, I'd guess?
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Ah, so a technicality, then? And it's already been solved, you say?

So why the barbed character assassination, thinly-veiled annoyance and false equivalencies from IDS? Is he really that dumb?

Again, I have nothing against voluntary and temporary work placements. It's when your benefits are tied to them and they become compulsory that they become dole slavery.

I imagine it has something to do with a minor rap over the knuckles about parliamentary drafting being grossed up in the media as a massive human rights victory. If you want a recent massive human rights victory (and one, incidentally, based only on the common law of England and Wales and without any reference to European anythings) you're better off looking at Moore v BWB decided this week in the Court of Appeal - it's a wonderful judgment.

37. However, that is not the end of this matter. As BWB can only require the removal of vessels unlawfully on the GUC, it is necessary to ask whether, even in the absence of an established riparian right to moor, the claimant, on the particular facts of this case, was committing any wrong at common law or under statute, which made what he was doing unlawful? If he was not, what power had BWB under s. 8 to require removal of the vessels?

38. I am alerted to the possibility that the claimant was not committing any wrong by a pithy observation of Sir Robert Megarry V.-C. in Metropolitan Police Commissioner [1979] 1 Ch 344 at 357C:-

"England, it may be said, is not a country where everything is forbidden except what is expressly permitted: it is a country where everything is permitted except what is expressly forbidden."

39. During the course of oral argument in this court it emerged that the multiplicity of issues generated by this dispute and the paper mountain of materials googled by Mr Moore had overshadowed the significance of that basic, if not totally accurate, maxim of English Law supportive of Mr Moore: what is not prohibited is permitted. That notion was at the core of the first element of AV Dicey's classic statement of the Rule of Law in 1885 (see Introduction to the Study of the Law of the Constitution 8th Edition at p. 183), accentuating the need in law enforcement to prove distinct breaches of established law. The notion also survives Lord Bingham's re-formulation in The Rule of Law (2010), emphasising the accessibility of law and the need for it to be, so far as possible, intelligible, clear and predictable, so that the citizen knows when his actions would be unlawful. Those "rule of law" considerations apply to the power of BWB to require the claimant to remove vessels from the GUC, because its exercise depends on whether the vessels are moored unlawfully.

40. In this long running battle it is entirely understandable that BWB wishes to establish and exercise its statutory power to manage moorings on the GUC under pain of removal of unlawfully moored vessels. The point is that, if the claimant is doing nothing wrong in mooring his vessels alongside his part of the bank, then he has acted within the law, not contrary to it. If what he does is lawful, BWB has no power under the legislation, from which its statutory powers derive, to compel him to remove his vessels from their moorings.
 
I heard about this case a couple of years ago. Good to see it worked out for her. Hopefully, this also means at least a major rethink of the whole "work-for-benefits" thing, which I always thought breached some human rights legislation, but now it's nice to have some confirmation of such.

The Guardian said:
A judge rejected the jobless graduate Cait Reilly's claim that a scheme requiring her to work for free at a Poundland discount store breached human rights laws banning slavery.

???
 
Yep. The court rejected the human rights claim (and a few others along the way), but accepted the claim that the regulations were not compatible with the enabling Act.

So Caitlin won the case, but not on human rights grounds.

Indeedy doody. Which makes perfect sense, I think. Not being given money is different to being fined.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
What are your thoughts on workfare in general, out of curiosity?

In general terms I am in favour of it. In that I tend away from characterising it as anything like slavery and more towards it being an additional benefit (you get money through JSA, which is good for living on; and you get work, which is good for the soul; and you get experience , which is good for the CV).

The two things that make me uncomfortable are (1) the effect, if there is one, of a flood of workfare placements on the availability of "proper" paid jobs, and (2) the nagging feeling that the companies are getting something for nothing out of this. It would be better all round if the companies contributed to the payments of people who are on placement - less economically distorting and more likely to treat the placements seriously.
 
They definitely were deceitful. I'd argue against the morality and the suitability of it too but hey ho.

What are your thoughts on workfare in general, out of curiosity?

I think it's destructive, economically. It helps big businesses at the expense of both small businesses and the unemployed. I don't personally have a problem with people working for benefits from a human rights stand point - afterall, that money comes from somewhere, and the people that provide it did have to work, so eitherway, someone is forced to work so that someone else can survive whilst they aren't. And that's what the net's there for, but one shouldn't be under the illusion that being "forced" to work for ones benefits is the opposite to what's happening anyway, it's just not the recipient that's forced to work - but there is the question of any work - even if it's not for a private company - that gets done is a job that could potentially have a paid employee doing it.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
In general terms I am in favour of it. In that I tend away from characterising it as anything like slavery and more towards it being an additional benefit (you get money through JSA, which is good for living on; and you get work, which is good for the soul; and you get experience , which is good for the CV).

The two things that make me uncomfortable are (1) the effect, if there is one, of a flood of workfare placements on the availability of "proper" paid jobs, and (2) the nagging feeling that the companies are getting something for nothing out of this. It would be better all round if the companies contributed to the payments of people who are on placement - less economically distorting and more likely to treat the placements seriously.

I think it's destructive, economically. It helps big businesses at the expense of both small businesses and the unemployed. I don't personally have a problem with people working for benefits from a human rights stand point - afterall, that money comes from somewhere, and the people that provide it did have to work, so eitherway, someone is forced to work so that someone else can survive whilst they aren't. And that's what the net's there for, but one shouldn't be under the illusion that being "forced" to work for ones benefits is the opposite to what's happening anyway, it's just not the recipient that's forced to work - but there is the question of any work - even if it's not for a private company - that gets done is a job that could potentially have a paid employee doing it.

Thanks. I pretty much agree. I was curious seeing as you have a more right-leaning opinion than is typically expressed here, but one that is articulately expressed. I would have far less problem with scheme if it was staffing them in struggling or smaller places. Libraries being a key example. The fundamental problem with the scheme is clearly the feeling that it punishes people who are in the lower-skilled jobs in the first place; it appears to be economically destructive as you say.
 
A tad embarrassing for the Government.

Telecoms regulator Ofcom has raised £2.34bn from its auction of 4G mobile spectrum, less than expected.

The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) had forecast that the auction would raise £3.5bn for the Treasury.

The winning bidders are Everything Everywhere; Hutchison 3G UK; Niche Spectrum Ventures, a BT subsidiary; Telefonica (O2); and Vodafone.

4G mobile broadband should provide smartphone and tablet computer users with superfast download speeds.

The auction netted far less than the £22bn raised from the 3G auction in 2000.

...

The shortfall has important political implications, because Chancellor George Osborne included £3.5bn worth of 4G auction receipts in his Autumn Statement in December.

BBC political producer Andrew Fagg says this allowed Mr Osborne to play the "trump card" of predicting that the UK's budget deficit would fall in 2012-13.

However, economists have now pointed out that without that full amount, borrowing would have been going up.

"The lower-than-expected windfall means that all bets must now be off on whether the deficit will in fact come down," says our producer. "Next month's Budget will reveal the answer."
 
I think that Cait's case will go to European courts, which may end up taking the side of human rights. But I dunno. Will be interesting to see how far it goes. DWP have been incredibly stubborn over the matter, even lying to clients in job centers trying to act like the ruling doesn't affect everyone when it does.
 
I think that Cait's case will go to European courts, which may end up taking the side of human rights. But I dunno. Will be interesting to see how far it goes. DWP have been incredibly stubborn over the matter, even lying to clients in job centers trying to act like the ruling doesn't affect everyone when it does.

They will rule in favour of the government, an EU wide ruling on workfare would anger too many governments and push Britain closer to leaving the ECHR. Honestly, it's a Labour policy wrapped up in Tory branding, so Labour wouldn't really be doing much differently and the government are succeeding in getting people into work, the employment rate is 71.5% and the country now has the highest ever number of people in work and a very high rate of participation as more people are joining the workforce.

Say what you like but allowing people to sit on the dole and not work for their money sends out a very bad message.
 
No problem with being made to work for benefits if the job is suitable. But has to be at the minimum wage. 9 hours a week for what I used to get which allows for a reasonable amount of time to do a good job search as well. Not the 30 being expected.

At that rate we can be sure that it isn't undermining real temp jobs which in my anecdotal experience it has been. Holland and Barret were using a third of their staff as unpaid work experience people through various schemes. It's nothing short of corporate welfare.

I think the scheme is getting such bad publicity, most companies and charities that prop the scheme up are pulling out. Tesco, Wilkinsons, Holland and Barret etc. Few people want to frequent at a shop that is staffed by workers at the tax payer's expense. The campaigns by boycott workfare have been fairly successful in forcing charities and companies to pull out.

The future of this work experience scheme is nothing more than a threat of punishment which JC+ or their sub contractors will likely be unable to follow through on. Many unemployed, few placements. That is the way this scheme will end if the courts don't shut it down first.

I often compare schemes to community service. Take the community action programme, 6 months of unpaid work at 30 hours a week. Except those who are on benefits haven't committed a crime.
 

Zaph

Member
CHEEZMO™;47974987 said:
Wow, coincidence. I went to get a coffee from my local place this morning and there was a sign in the window for part time staff. Four of the half dozen or so people in front of me where just queueing to hand over their CV.

Something definitely needs to be done to address this growing, unemployed army who've spent their entire working life in retail and aren't qualified for much else.
 
No problem with being made to work for benefits if the job is suitable. But has to be at the minimum wage. 9 hours a week for what I used to get which allows for a reasonable amount of time to do a good job search as well. Not the 30 being expected.

At that rate we can be sure that it isn't undermining real temp jobs which in my anecdotal experience it has been. Holland and Barret were using a third of their staff as unpaid work experience people through various schemes. It's nothing short of corporate welfare.

I think the scheme is getting such bad publicity, most companies and charities that prop the scheme up are pulling out. Tesco, Wilkinsons, Holland and Barret etc. Few people want to frequent at a shop that is staffed by workers at the tax payer's expense. The campaigns by boycott workfare have been fairly successful in forcing charities and companies to pull out.

The future of this work experience scheme is nothing more than a threat of punishment which JC+ or their sub contractors will likely be unable to follow through on. Many unemployed, few placements. That is the way this scheme will end if the courts don't shut it down first.

I often compare schemes to community service. Take the community action programme, 6 months of unpaid work at 30 hours a week. Except those who are on benefits haven't committed a crime.

But that's an easy fix for the government. New rate of minimum wage for people on JSA for 1+ years, stick it at £67 per week at 35h per week. So have a new rate of minimum wage at £1.90/h and call it a day.

If that's what it takes then I don't doubt the government will introduce such a measure in the next finance bill. However, I know that IDS just wants to get people off the dole and into paid work, any paid work. He knows, like most people, that work creates a positive cycle for people and the economy while sitting on the dole does the exact opposite as it destroys people's confidence and harms the economy.

The community action scheme is not something I personally agree with, but if they do it properly and get young people into the idea of working early in their lives, whether it is paid or voluntary work then that's a good thing. I worked for a charity (British Red Cross) when I was 16 for no money, it's no big deal, people need to put a much larger importance on experience and much less emphasis on money.

Boycotting schemes to get people into work is very destructive, but I expect nothing less of opportunistic lefties.

CHEEZMO™;47974987 said:

Employment increased by 154,000 in the previous quarter. There are jobs out there.
 
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