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[Biggzy]

I'm not so sure about that. The LibDems may have lost support (and it may only be a short-term loss) among many of their traditional supporters, but after all there weren't enough of these traditional supporters to get them elected to anything anyway.

But they have made some gains: in electoral credibility in doing a sensible coalition deal, in credibility as a potential party of government, in pushing some policies through minority membership of a coalition - especially, if the Coalition manages to pull it off, getting lower earners out of the tax brackets altogether.

It is rather early to write them off, and they will have a broader prospective set of supporters next time round, though it remains to be seen how much of that they can turn into votes.



The chief one surely must be in their approach to deficit reduction - if it works. Besides that there's the free schools thing, the partial rolling back of the appalling erosions of civil liberties. the measure of this government though is surely going to be in the success or otherwise of deficit reduction rather than on specific policy initiatives.

Again too early to write them off.

Against both of these there's the question of whether Labour, come the next election, will have any credible policies. If they don't then it does rather leave the field open for the Tories and LibDems. Just because we may not like things that the current government is doing/might have been forced into doing doesn't mean there's space for much in the way of credible alternatives.

But there supporters have done just that though- if the shockingly bad election results are anything to go by in the local council elections, Scottish elections and Welsh elections. I am not a Lib Dem supporter, but even I can understand Lib Dem supporters anger at the way the Lib Dems abandoned one of there key beliefs of no tuition fees. Then there reason for it was because of the deficit. My pet dog could have told Nick Glegg that, and for me it was a very poor excuse.

However after saying that I do agree with you that they are not permanently destroyed because people forget, just look at Wales with the Tories becoming the second biggest party in the Welsh assembly. But i my opinion they are set for another pasting in the next general election and there only hope is if the economy recovers again by then which is very doubtful.

 

[avaya]

No, the government bailed out RBS and BoS. My employer received no such bail out monies. We had to eat our losses and a lot of people lost their jobs as a result and half the board have been sacked or retired.

It wouldn't even be banks or bankers that lose out from this move, whether you like it or not people and institutions would move to other countries and the government would lose the tax income. As a result the people who lose out are the 750,000 government employees who are paid with the tax money earned from the City. The nurses, teachers, doctors and police officers who we all depend on would lose their jobs while just 200,000 people would move out of London and the surrounding areas.

You may be happy but there are many government employees and private sector employees looking very worried right now that this tax will mean deeper cuts in spending and much higher taxes. All of this for what? Ideological punishment? Can't you see how destructive it would be?

Also, no one has ever tried to introduce progressive regulatory changes in Britain. Gordon Brown deregulated the industry so very much and business from around the world poured into the City and other parts of the UK. Our financial sector grew very much at the expense of Paris and a little of Frankfurt and New York. That's what all this EU regulation/tax is about, an assault on the City and the UK, nothing else.

Your first paragraph is only correct in the realm of semantics. If you work for a bulge bracket you were fucked if RBS and HBOS failed. They were counterparties on numerous transactions. The effective default of all of those contracts would have bankrupted everyone bar HSBC possibly.

 

[phisheep]

But there supporters have done just that though- if the shockingly bad election results are anything to go by in the local council elections, Scottish elections and Welsh elections. I am not a Lib Dem supporter, but even I can understand Lib Dem supporters anger at the way the Lib Dems abandoned one of there key beliefs of no tuition fees. Then there reason for it was because of the deficit. My pet dog could have told Nick Glegg that, and for me it was a very poor excuse.

That'll be a short term effect I think. In reality there's no way the LibDems could have got their main policies through unless enough people voted for them not to be a junior partner, and much of the populace may realise that all of a sudden it is actually feasible to vote LibDem and have a fighting chance of getting the policies they want. That could be a bigger positive impact come the general election than the dip we are seeing, and which probably would have happened whichever of the big parties the LibDems coalitioned with.

However after saying that I do agree with you that they are not permanently destroyed because people forget, just look at Wales with the Tories becoming the second biggest party in the Welsh assembly. But i my opinion they are set for another pasting in the next general election and there only hope is if the economy recovers again by then which is very doubtful.

Even so, I suspect the LibDems will have a good story to tell on personal taxation come the next election. taxing the workers less is likely to be a bigger vote winner than squeezing the rich, and Labour's 10p tax farrago won't be quickly forgotten. Not that quickly anyway.

Overall the LibDem's chances at the next election are likely to depend more on Labour's economic policy than on anything else.

 

[Empty]

lansley's nhs bill just passed the commons. 316 - 251.

anyone have an article that explains what the changes to it in the last few months were or was this just a strategic delay to slip it through when people had stopped talking about how awful it is.

 

[Speedymanic]

Oh dear. RIP NHS as we know and love it.

Might be wrong, but there weren't many changes, the health secretary still has less powers/responsibilities and the NHS will still be opened up to the private sector who will come in and pick it apart and turn it into something more akin to dreaded US health system.

I don't understand why they insist on pushing ahead with the reforms, virtually no-one wants them and let's not even get into how much it's going to cost.

Stupid Tories/Lib Dems and any of the Labour dicks who voted for this. :x

 

[phisheep]

Oh dear. RIP NHS as we know and love it.

Might be wrong, but there weren't many changes, the health secretary still has less powers/responsibilities and the NHS will still be opened up to the private sector who will come in and pick it apart and turn it into something more akin to dreaded US health system.

I don't understand why they insist on pushing ahead with the reforms, virtually no-one wants them and let's not even get into how much it's going to cost.

Stupid Tories/Lib Dems and any of the Labour dicks who voted for this. :x

I have an interest in this. Over the last few years two of my children have been stricken with the same debilitating, incurable-but-manageable and readily-treatable disease.

In both cases (one might be an accident, but two strongly suggests sytematic failings), the route through diagnosis to effective treatment, which could easily have been done within about six weeks, took in excess of nine months, during which period the kids needed permanent 24-hour care from me, which lost each of them a year of their education quite unnecessarily, and meant I had to ditch my job to look after them. The total economic cost of that delay far outweighs any local efficiencies.

This is because the current NHS organisation favours local occupancy and throughput (which would broadly equate to operational efficiency if only it were decently co-ordinated, but in the end really only equates to maximising consultant income) over patient care.

The sooner this is fixed the better. For patients. Which is who it is meant to be for after all.

The proposed reforms go some way towards this.

This isn't a political point, it is about caring for patients properly. Something which comes into the conversation far too rarely.

 

[Speedymanic]

Very sorry to hear that, Phi. I hope both your children are now being treated and back at school.

Having said that, it's always sad when something like that happens, but it doesn't mean that the NHS should have to undergo such radical and drastic changes and we certainly shouldn't even entertain opening up the NHS to the private sector who will come in and pick it apart.

 

[phisheep]

Very sorry to hear that, Phi. I hope both your children are now being treated and back at school.

Having said that, it's always sad when something like that happens, but it doesn't mean that the NHS should have to undergo such radical and drastic changes and we certainly shouldn't even entertain opening up the NHS to the private sector who will come in and pick it apart.

Oh, they're fine now, after a couple of long slogs. Thanks for the thoughts.

As to the main point about the NHS though, I find it worrying that the ground for argument is so frequently based on matters of political principle rather than patient outcomes. I don't understand, for example, your apparent (and it may only be apparent) dogmatism that the NHS should never be opened up to the private sector. But neither would I suggest that mere privatisation is any sort of panacea.

Private-sector healthcare seems to fall into roughly two lumps. There's the insurance-based stuff, which to a large extent relies on the NHS as backup when exclusion clauses kick in and to that extent is parasitic on a fully-functioning NHS that we would be daft to destroy; and there's the specialist high-volume procedures stuff, which relies on an effective diagnostic-and-referral mechanism provided by the NHS to get people to the right places. Neither of these would form, even in part, an appropriate substitute for the NHS end-to-end care. (I'm ignoring, because it is very low volume, the raft of private consultants who parasitise rich hypochondriacs).

However, I can see there may be a strong case for, say, outsourcing the tracking and monitoring of patient care - which is currently horribly disconnected between hospitals, departments, consultants and GPs and has suffered dreadfully over the last 40-50 years through lack of sensible investment except in very tiny pockets. Plenty of spending, no sensible investment. And GPs and consultants are in all but name private enterprises anyway, and there would seem to be little harm (or at least little incremental harm!) in exploring other means of provision than the almost ultimately fragmented non-system that we have at present.

There's a lot to be considered here, but I don't think that a dogmatic approach on either side is particularly helpful in getting things sorted out.

 

[Walshicus]

Private sector involvement in the NHS has nothing to do with patient care or value for money - it's entirely an exercise in handing cushy contracts to the mates of politicians.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Private sector involvement in the NHS has nothing to do with patient care or value for money - it's entirely an exercise in handing cushy contracts to the mates of politicians.

This is my fear as well which is why I don't support privatisation of the NHS. I do however support market based reforms as introduced by Labour and then expanded by this government. Having a single provider for all state healthcare is not good and has lead to a real decline in patient outcomes. Having more than one provider will lead to competition on quality of treatment provided and get better value for money for the tax payer, though I suspect the government's forecasts on health spending requirements are a little optimistic...

In other news, the IFS are to release their study into the 50% rate which indicates what I and many people in finance have suspected for a while - it raises no money, in fact it is a money loser since high income earners are more mobile and better at tax avoidance so they either leave the country or engage in the latter. Someone at the office worked out that just 40,000 people would have to leave or avoid paying taxes to make the 50% rate untenable. It's a very low figure, and I am 100% sure that more tax has been chased away by high marginal rates than is raised. The IFS have just confirmed it. If anyone is thinking of discounting the IFS as a Tory organisation, don't. They are the number one thinktank on tax authority and have criticised both Tory and Labour governments for their tax policies, they are 100% independent and the new director has stepped back from outside funding of research so as to maintain their independence.

The article should be in today's Times which requires paywall access or the newspaper itself. As I am overseas I am unable to acquire the paper and don't want to pay for the paywall.

 

[Zenith]

Tory peer sentenced to 9 months for expenses fraud is released after only 9 weeks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14881229

Meanwhile people sentenced to 4 years for being a jackass on facebook.

 

[Meadows]

Disgusting that they were released so early and I'm against it, but whoever green-lighted that must be bloody short-sighted to think that people wouldn't get pissed off about it, the news is basically a goldmine to the sensationalist press.

 

[killer_clank]

Lots of rumours about Osborne today, which comes as no real surprise.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/09/took-cocaine-osborne-rowe

Next the cabinet will all have affairs, just as Cameron goes "back to basics"

 

[Biggzy]

Lots of rumours about Osborne today, which comes as no real surprise.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/09/took-cocaine-osborne-rowe

Next the cabinet will all have affairs, just as Cameron goes "back to basics"

Would explain his economic plans though.

 

[Meadows]

Lots of rumours about Osborne today, which comes as no real surprise.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/09/took-cocaine-osborne-rowe

Next the cabinet will all have affairs, just as Cameron goes "back to basics"

Quite frankly I couldn't care less. He isn't really a "moral crusader" politician like Keith Vaz or anything so it doesn't change my opinion of him. I rate him reasonably well as a Chancellor, especially with Cable there to moderate his right-wing tendencies.

 

[Subliminal]

Why is the Britgaf thread locked?

And fuck yeah! My MP is losing his seat!

 

[Meadows]

Why is the Britgaf thread locked?

And fuck yeah! My MP is losing his seat!

Is there a new map?

And why did they close it down? It said something about it being unwelcoming and NSFW...

Don't really understand that, the only person who I would say was being unwelcoming was Chinner, but that's just his shtick, and I don't remember any real NSFW content.

 

[Subliminal]

There was nothing NSFW and it wasn't at all unwelcoming.

I haven't seen and overall map but http://consultation.boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/whats-proposed/ is a good source.

 

[killer_clank]

britgaf being locked is appalling in my opinion. It really wasn't NSFW.

 

[Meadows]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14912236

Crap unemployment figures.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14912236

Crap unemployment figures.

Yeah, it's due to a massive rise in youth unemployment by 77k out of the 80k total. Basically the squeeze on university places has hit pretty hard. The idea that less people should go to university is probably good since a lot of people do terrible courses, but not having a system in place to absorb people who don't make it is bad and the government need to rectify it, fast.

 

[killer_clank]

This country needs to invest in infrastructure much more than we currently are. Use the high unemployment figures as a reason to increase construction schemes and investment in things like renewable energy and public transport.

More people would then be in work, paying taxes and spending money in the shops, reducing social security payments. Build houses, we need more affordable housing. Build the fucking high speed rail line that's seemingly been in consultation for years. JUST DO SOMETHING instead of just cutting recklessly all over the place, focus it more correctly.

 

[kharma45]

It'll be strange having Question Time coming from my home city tonight, hopefully people will be able to understand our accents.

 

[Meadows]

Watch Sky News now, these pro-traveler activists are the most typical hippy twats ever.

"The infinite power of the state is nothing compared to the power of truth that we have on our side."

Just a load of "I'm more liberal than you" dickheads.

 

[Chinner]

heh bloody liberals caring about democracy and equal rights kill em all lets put them in concentration camps and if they escape we shoot them and if not kill them all and we can call all of our kids deby or josh.

 

[SmokyDave]

Just a load of "I'm more liberal than you" dickheads.

Works for me, I get to say "I'm more authoritarian than you!" before cracking their heads open with a baton.

 

[Walshicus]

Watch Sky News now, these pro-traveler activists are the most typical hippy twats ever.

"The infinite power of the state is nothing compared to the power of truth that we have on our side."

Just a load of "I'm more liberal than you" dickheads.

Their heart's are in the right place, and I know I'd prefer to face ultra-liberal protesters than ultra-authoritarian. But yeah - I'm with Da State on this one.

 

[Biggzy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14971521

Not surprised, but it's looking increasingly likely that George Osborne will have to seriously start thinking of policy's that will boost growth. Or the coalition will have to start coming round to the fact that the planned elimination of the UK deficit by 2015 is looking much too ambitious.

 

[StealthGoblin]

I live reasonably close to Dale Farm.

I don't have anything against traveller communities. . .as long as they actually travel. These guys set up shop illegally, haven't moved on, have managed to re-route water supplies into their 'stronghold', do not pay taxes, have built roads into their illegal site and have trashed the surrounding area.

Its all very well getting caught up with the emotive aspect of the eviction, but people need to realise that they are living there illegally and not contributing to the economy (in a meaningful way) and are still using our services (schools, hospitals etc).

The people in the surrounding area have had thousands wiped off of the value of their land/housing.

The sooner this is resolved, the better. Unfortunately they'll just set up shop somewhere else.

 

[pulsemyne]

He could easily fill in the black hole by actually closing up the million and one tax loopholes that exist. He could also clamp down on tax evasion by people and companies. Of course this would mean hurting some of his best friends.

Oh and incase you missed it I highly recommend watching "the house of Westminster" on Iplayer (was on BBC 2). Excellant stuff but how our governments are run etc.

 

[Biggzy]

He could easily fill in the black hole by actually closing up the million and one tax loopholes that exist. He could also clamp down on tax evasion by people and companies. Of course this would mean hurting some of his best friends.

Oh and incase you missed it I highly recommend watching "the house of Westminster" on Iplayer (was on BBC 2). Excellant stuff but how our governments are run etc.

Thanks for the heads-up

 

[Meadows]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14985709

Bond markets ain't gonna like this.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14985709

Bond markets ain't gonna like this.

Good thing it wasn't true then. Treasury sent out a swift denial and Vince Cable cut a broken figure this morning since he has lost the battle with George Osborne for extra stimulus. Vince obviously leaked to the BBC early in order to get some momentum going.

 

[Zenith]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15123496

Former Met Police commander Ali Dizaei is to return to duty after winning an appeal against his dismissal.

Mr Dizaei, 49, was sacked after he was jailed last year for misconduct and perverting the course of justice.

What in the eff? Anyone who's followed this story knows he has a huge history of corruption and that the evidence against him was pretty damning.

 

[kitch9]

heh bloody liberals caring about democracy and equal rights kill em all lets put them in concentration camps and if they escape we shoot them and if not kill them all and we can call all of our kids deby or josh.

Its the crazy human rights shit they back against public opinion that will turn most voters off.

 

[Meadows]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15123496



What in the eff? Anyone who's followed this story knows he has a huge history of corruption and that the evidence against him was pretty damning.

Apparently he's going to get suspended near immediately and he's nearly 100% likely to get fully removed in a tribunal in a few months.

 

[Wes]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Just saw Laura K on ITV.

 

[kharma45]

Daily Mail doing a good job as usual...

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8510/falseknoxstory02.jpg

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

One day, as an experiment, I'm going to buy up a small plot of land and start building something on it without asking for planning permission. Then when the council tries to knock it down, I'll start saying that I'm being discriminated against because I'm ginger.

 

[Meadows]

May's in trouble!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15171980

Seems like something the Republicans would have done in America.

 

[travisbickle]

May's in trouble!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15171980

Seems like something the Republicans would have done in America.

I don't use profanity very often but Theresa May is a knob.

 

[StealthGoblin]

I don't use profanity very often but Theresa May is a knob.

Seconded.

I wonder how the director generals of MI5 and MI6 get on with her? She doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the box.

There hasn't been a Home secretary in quite a while that I've felt comfortable with.

 

[Meadows]

Seconded.

I wonder how the director generals of MI5 and MI6 get on with her? She doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the box.

There hasn't been a Home secretary in quite a while that I've felt comfortable with.

Really? I loved Alan Johnson (apart from his ID card continuation), fantastic politician who should have gone for the leader's job.

Just saw this on the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15171448

Sexual.

 

[Songbird]

May's in trouble!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15171980

Seems like something the Republicans would have done in America.

Speaking of the Tory party conference, Cameron's on stage right now. Did the BBC say that his script had to be altered because of the forecast of another recession next year?

The speech was re-written slightly, after a passage released to the media on Tuesday apparently urged the public to make paying off debts a priority.

It read: "The only way out of a debt crisis is to deal with your debts. That means households - all of us - paying off the credit card and store card bills."

Instead, Mr Cameron said: "The only way out of a debt crisis is to deal with your debts. That's why households are paying down the credit card and store card bills".

 

[Empty]

i think it's just that he didn't want to sound like that he was demanding people change their personal behaviour. as it's generally a bad idea politically when things are shit to do so, see carter's crisis of confidence speech.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

QE2!!!!!!!!

£75bn worth of asset purchases announced by the Bank. If they were smart they would use the money to by bank paper to avoid an expensive recapitalisation program in a few months. It is apparently up for discussion according to Treasury sources I have spoken to.

For clarity the bank I work for would not need bond purchases by the Bank. It would be RBS and LBG (unsurprisingly), and if the government wanted to extend the scheme to the EU then SocGen, UBS and BNP should also be considered, but the latter is probably not politically viable.

 

[Meadows]

Didn't know where to post this, but does anyone know how to review a pub/club's license to see whether the place is keeping to it?

I live across the road from a bar/pub that does rock gigs but I'm sure they're breaking their license agreements because they're not in the main entertainment/club area of the city and they're playing music until about 1.30am/2am on Fri/Sat and until about 1am/1.30am on Sundays.

Now I'm not against people playing music in a gig venue, heck even if it's excessively loud (and shite), but when it goes on until after 1am on a Sun day night it's pretty fucking ridiculous, I need to get up at 7.30am on a Monday and it's ruining my sleep. Basically I want to check their license and then either report them if they're breaking it, or put in a complaint to the council to either lessen the hours of their license or get them to put better sound proofing in, as it is right now it's fucking ridiculous.

Oh, and I live in York if that helps.

 

[Walshicus]

Didn't know where to post this, but does anyone know how to review a pub/club's license to see whether the place is keeping to it?

I live across the road from a bar/pub that does rock gigs but I'm sure they're breaking their license agreements because they're not in the main entertainment/club area of the city and they're playing music until about 1.30am/2am on Fri/Sat and until about 1am/1.30am on Sundays.

Now I'm not against people playing music in a gig venue, heck even if it's excessively loud (and shite), but when it goes on until after 1am on a Sun day night it's pretty fucking ridiculous, I need to get up at 7.30am on a Monday and it's ruining my sleep. Basically I want to check their license and then either report them if they're breaking it, or put in a complaint to the council to either lessen the hours of their license or get them to put better sound proofing in, as it is right now it's fucking ridiculous.

Oh, and I live in York if that helps.

Sounds like you need to pop into the town/city hall and make a complaint.

 

[Meadows]

Sounds like you need to pop into the town/city hall and make a complaint.

Yeah, just sent a query email instead, but ta for the advice.

 

[Your Excellency]

Slightly off-topic but, guys, it's such a shame that the UK Brit-Gaf thread was closed.



Oh wait, no it wasn't.