Yeah Bum is full of shit.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT2| New Age of Zeroes
- Thread starter enzo_gt
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Yeah Bum is full of shit.
Karsticles
Member
That's because normal Phoenix is safer than Dormammu! Haha. Actually, she's one of the safest characters in the game IMO. Nothing amuses me more than when I use her on point and someone tries to random me out with a Hawkeye Gimlet. NO sir, that does not work.
Wait, you're saying you can't punish Dormammu's teleport when it's naked? I think you juts need to practice some if that's the case. "I can't do it" when other people can isn't a good argument. Seriously, against other Dormammu players all I do is try to look busy to bait a teleport for me to air throw, and that's playing arguably the slowest ground dash character in the game.
Wesker's teleport can only be punished by c.L if he lands next to you, which he gets to decide. IMO, his teleport H is much harder to punish than Dormammu's teleport M.
I don't have trouble with Wesker at all with Dormammu. I think he's pretty free and most Dormammu players don't understand the matchup. That's without assists though, which doesn't really matter. Vergil is pretty impossible for Dormammu if he isn't ass, as is Dante.
Dormammu and Wesker both have weaknesses, but here's the difference:
90% of Wesker's bad matchups are covered by Vajra assist.
Dormammu has no equivalent.
In a real, team setting, Wesker has almost no bad matchups. Dormammu still has plenty. 1v1, Dormammu might have less bad matchups, but who gives a shit?
I never said that at all. I just said it's difficult to air throw Mass Change M on reaction due to its height. I can't be the only one who thinks this is the case.
He doesn't get to decide where his teleport L lands, it's a fixed distance always. If you know he teleported and if you know the distances of Wesker then you know where he's going to land.
I agree that Wesker's Teleport H is also difficult to punish on reaction.
How is Vergil impossible for Dorm? I am asking this more for information gathering as just less than a week ago I am sure I was arguing in favor of Vergil in that match up and someone else was arguing that it's in Dorm's favor.
Should be a good discussion piece.
Well now you are discussing Wesker + assists vs Dorm + assists. You can try out Repulsor Blast assist to cover the teleport spaces of Wesker as well as Strider's assist as it's an effective anti-air assists with good horizontal coverage too.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Karsticles
Member
I do not agree with you.
[/quote]He doesn't get to decide where his teleport L lands, it's a fixed distance always. If you know he teleported and if you know the distances of Wesker then you know where he's going to land.[/quote]
My point is that because it is a fixed distance from where he is, he gets to choose where it lands by dashing forward/backward. No other character has this luxury, and it is a big deal.
Dormammu can't do anything but rush against teleporters because his zoning game is so risky and low reward, and Vergil's standing normals have such enormous range that Dormammu can't hope to hit him without the Vergil player messing up. That's the shorthand of my experience, at least.
This game only matters with assists. It should never, ever be balanced around characters flying solo. It's one of the reason Dormammu, despite being an arguably top tier point character, is not found on a lot of teams: his assists are ass. Team synergy matters in this game.
It's both. It puts Dormammu at the perfect distance to get a little space or to try and close in with df.dash c.L mix-ups. However, it excels at neither, as it can't create the space Deadpool's teleport can, and it doesn't put Dormammu close enough to apply pressure with it like the trenchcoats and Phoenix. That's also why its recovery is a little faster than other teleports - it's meant to be a somewhat safe tool to try and reset your distance, from which you can approach or run.
It's really important to remember that Dormammu's total frames for his teleport is the same as everyone else's. It's very fair for what it is trying to be.
SolarPowered
Member
Bum sounds like a gamefaqs poster. Reading that tweet actually makes me think there won't be an update.
SFIV is done, SFxT is a bust and they have nothing else to release until next year at the earliest(which may not even happen after the SFxT fumble). What else do they have besides one last Mahvel update? That'll probably sell better than anything else they could put together at the last minute for the Street Fighter related games.
"God's Beard!"
Member
It's just, there's so much cool tech with Dormammu, but every time I play him I'm so worried about keeping myself safe that I never get to use half of it. You really have to put in the time with Dormammu before you can learn how to take advantage of every moment. I think Karst mentioned this a few times, but to play Dorm well you have to be constantly doing something, whether it's charging spells, dropping pillars or whatever. Just attacking and dodging isn't good enough.
SFxT DLC lol
SFxT DLC lol
That's what I said and that was countered with "well Dorm can throw out Dark Matter to restrict Vergil's teleport options or see what he's going to do". The match up discussion just became too much of "whoever gets the first teleport mix up wins".
Vergil can't really do much about Dorm using teleports/Dark Matter because Vergil doesn't really like to be in the air (no mobility options and all he can do is Helm Breakers). Like wise neither can Dorm do much about Vergil's teleports paired with an assist. Vergil has better normals on the ground, can even out space Flame Carpet, can anti-air Dorm better than Dorm can anti air him and is one of the few characters who doesn't have to respect Stalking Flare if he is grounded. Vergil can punish Dorm into a full combo where as Dorm can't do the same to Vergil.
Match up dynamics change also with whoever has more meter and the assists on deck.
Most of SRK thinks that Dorm is top 5. SRK's grand tier list has top 5 as Zero, Viper, Dante, Dormammu, Spencer. Although Magneto and Vergil have been piquing people's interest as of late and one of those (or both) can sneak into the top 5 by the time the next tier list voting comes about.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Magneto should get an EX Gravitation that does 0 damage but pulls you next to him from anywhere on screen. That would be cool.
Yeah, I know. I just don't really see it. *shrug* Honestly, Spencer is another character I think is really good, but top five is pushing it.
Though, honestly, I expect the next SRK top five to be like Zero, Viper, Dorm, Spencer and Vergil. Everyone seems to think Dante sucks now.
Protip: he doesn't, but people can keep believing that if they want.
Every time people say Dante sucks, I just sigh in exasperation.
I was up at Next Level on Friday (Henry Cen recognized me, told me Bison players weren't allowed with a smile, was a bit of a wtf since I dunno how he recognized me..wheelchair doesn't blend, I guess lol), and I got a looooooooooooooooooot of hate for Zero.
By people playing with Magneto, Dante, and Sentinel on their squads. It's just, jesus, you can do all sorts of nastiness with Mags and Dante, especially with drone assist, and you're enraged at Zero?
I recognize he's amazing, but Dante can fight him as can Magneto. People just don't like having to be aware of when they call assists or to think.
I was up at Next Level on Friday (Henry Cen recognized me, told me Bison players weren't allowed with a smile, was a bit of a wtf since I dunno how he recognized me..wheelchair doesn't blend, I guess lol), and I got a looooooooooooooooooot of hate for Zero.
By people playing with Magneto, Dante, and Sentinel on their squads. It's just, jesus, you can do all sorts of nastiness with Mags and Dante, especially with drone assist, and you're enraged at Zero?
I recognize he's amazing, but Dante can fight him as can Magneto. People just don't like having to be aware of when they call assists or to think.
Dante has a lot of support at SRK, people rightfully rate him for his toolset and assist selection. Dante forums at SRK are also the most active around and a lot of people have a good understanding on that character there. He should be staying in top 5 for a while as long as that place has reasonable posters.
People seemed to have re-jumped on the Vergil bandwagon as of late. There are people on SRK who claim that he is #1 in the game even on the level of Zero and this just recently started. He's pretty much confirmed to be top 3 best anchor in the game and I think people are going to weigh that in more when before it was unthinkable to be over Wesker.
I don't think Spencer is top 5 either and I am sure that either Vergil or Magneto are going to rise in the ranks to surpass him. While there are a lot of people gunning for Firebrand/Strider at SRK, most are just shy to put them both in the S tier category.
Yipes and PRBalrog are the two best shots for Dante winning EVO.
This thread sparked up some nice discussion. It's basically a list of "best player for each character" in the game. --> http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/best-player-for-each-character.158564/#post-6807547
My picks because I love them lists:
Akuma: Justin Wong/Knives
Amaterasu: MarlinPie
Arthur: KinderParty
C. Viper: MarlinPie
Captain America: Blacktastic/Condor Missile
Chris: LLND/GCYoshi
Chun-Li: Brian Kasugano
Dante: Yipes/Richard
Deadpool: Damien/Sneiter
Dr. Strange: That Japanese guy vs Abegen forgot his name already
Dormammu: FChamp
Dr. Doom: MarlinPie/Clockwork
Felicia: DJHoushen
Firebrand: Zak Bennet
Frank West: Kusoru/Combofiend
Ghost Rider: That guy who made top 8 with Ghost Rider at PowerUp because I can't think of anyone else
Haggar: Bum/Predator
Hawkeye: HonzoGonzo/Combofiend
Hsien-Ko: LLND
Hulk: Sneiter/GX/Airtola
Iron Fist: Justin Wong
Iron Man: Joker
Jill: Pulsr
M.O.D.O.K: Scrubeks
Magneto: Joker/Fanatiq
Morrigan: JJJ/ChrisG
Nemesis: Unknown/Airtola
Nova: Ifrit
Phoenix: FChamp
Phoenix Wright: Poltergust/GX
Rocket Raccoon: Kusoru
Ryu: RayRay
Sentinel: RayRay/RowTron
She-Hulk: Abegen
Shuma-Gorath: P Gorath?
Spencer: Knives
Spider-Man: Killa Sasa/That other Spidey player from MD
Storm: Fanatiq/JJJ/DiosX
Strider: Chou/Clockwork
Super Skrull: HiIamNasty/DJHoushen
Taskmaster: Airtola/DJHoushen
Thor: Abegen/Royal Flush
Trish: RDK/Jago
Tron Bonne: Abegen/Rikir/Taylor
Vergil: Yipes/Chou
Viewtiful Joe: Howtoread/Kusoru
Wesker: Viscant/Mine
Wolverine: PRBalrog
X-23: Meep/Tatsu
Zero: Mihe
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'll actually support Yipes again now that he's back to playing Magneto. Dude was frauding it up for a while.
biosnake20
Member
I want a magneto specialist to win EVO. RayRay, Fchamp, or Joker.
Only thing that 'sucks' about Dante is probably 8 frame jab. On the other hand, I'm glad he doesn't have anything faster, because then he'd be super fraud friendly.
It's because Dante and Magneto don't have the best assist in the game, aka Buster and Lightning.
My biggest gripe about Zero is that getting hit by Buster from full screen and still getting combo'd. I think that constitues 70% of how I get hit by him. The rest is getting clipped randomly by cr.M or j.H or the invisible edges of lightning.
Of course, getting hit by Buster is generally my fault. It's just annoying having to deal with such a fast projectile that can come out of anything Zero does.
I can't see Vergil being number one, or even close to it. If he had more aerial options, maybe... but as it is, no. I will agree with him being top 3 anchor, though.
scytheavatar
Member
Yet chances of them using him isn't high. PR Rog will probably stick to Wolverine and Wesker and stop playing around with Dante and Felicia, while Yipes still seems to be the best with Spencer/Vergil/Hawkeye. Yeah I used to think that Dante is better than Vergil too but nowadays I am starting to think that Vergil is better than Dante. Damage is just too important in this game, and Dante needs to work too much for his damage.
crimsonspider89
Banned
Dorm vs Vergil falls into who causes who to use meter first, and Dorm is considered top five due to this:
Great mix ups, only one of two pre utility chars with teleport and airdash, high damage, great zoning when against non multi hit projectiles. Has legitimate 1-frame reversals. Two great hypers and dark matter cancellation helps him out.
And the tall hitbox only is when he stands up though.
Great mix ups, only one of two pre utility chars with teleport and airdash, high damage, great zoning when against non multi hit projectiles. Has legitimate 1-frame reversals. Two great hypers and dark matter cancellation helps him out.
And the tall hitbox only is when he stands up though.
Yeah, that makes sense. I worked out a kill-combo now off errant buster/lightnings, now. But, it relies on TACs
.Vergil will be top 5 once people stop running him on point. To be a good point in this game you need to be able to chuck plasma around.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Or be able to get around plasma which Vergil is a specialist at doing.
Vergil's ability to shutdown both dedicated rushdown and dedicated zoning is why he is a top character. It's always going to be debatable whether he is top 5/top 10 but he is a defining part of the game's meta.
haggar needs super armor on his pipe hits. that and a command roll. it doesn't even have to be invincible but fast enough to move him forward pretty quick and keep his hitbox small. although it should allow him to get passed people. other than that he is okay. for taskmaster i just want him to be able to block in the air after hypers or just regular arrows. it doesn't have to be quick either but give me an opportunity to do so at some point. for hawkeye i just wish his H up arrows reached characters like trish,doom when they are up in the corner in flight. if capcom doesn't want him to spam it easily then let him charge it like he does his regular H and then shoot it.
crimsonspider89
Banned
Vergil is good due to his great footsie game(yes, he has a great footsie game) and the fact he can go toe to toe or beat a lot of the top tier characters. Has a couple problems but is good for that reason like Trish.
what can he do against a morrigan/firebrand/whoever chucking plasma from the top corner of the screen?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Spiral Swords, then whatever the fuck he feels like?
crimsonspider89
Banned
Yes, Vergil has issues with SJ zoners as does Zero and Wesker. Why you have assists. With Vergil, he suffers from the fact he needs an AA, beam and an OTG assist to use his full potential but alas, can't be done. How some chars have to be balanced to ensure fairness.
Professor Beef
Banned
I want AgeoJoe to win EVO.
"God's Beard!"
Member
What would you guys add/change system-wise to Marvel 4?
- Custom Assists
- Passive Cheerleader Assists
- Reworked combo system for shorter combos
- Health tripled
- Timer set at 250 marvel seconds
- X-factor no longer gives stat boosts, instead unique abilities like Dark Force
- X-factor can be used as a Burst during Hitstun, but ends immediately, can't be comboed
- Using X-factor as a guard cancel ends it immediately
- Characters always face their opponents in the air
- Flight can be activated multiple times for a combined total # of frames per jump
- Flight startup decreased across the board
- ceiling height lowered slightly
- Crossover Counters have 45 frames of invincibility
- EX versions of most/all special moves, hypers done with 3 buttons
- Air tags can't be countered, air tags don't steal/build meter, air tags end combo
- Snap Backs cost 1/2 bar
- Taunting removes 1 bar from both players after completion
i kinda borrowed your list a little and added a few people and bolded who i thought was the strongest.
biosnake20
Member
Akuma: Justin Wong
Amaterasu: MarlinPie
C. Viper: MarlinPie
Chris: LLND
Dante: Yipes/Richard/Pr Rog
Dr. Strange: That Japanese guy
Dormammu: FChamp
Dr. Doom: MarlinPie
Felicia: Justin Wong
Firebrand: Zak Bennet
Frank West: Kusoru/Combofiend/Justin Wong
Haggar: Bum
Hawkeye: Combofiend
Hsien-Ko: LLND
Iron Fist: Justin Wong
Iron Man: Joker/ That japanese guy that plays dr.strange
Magneto: RayRay/Joker/Fanatiq/Fchamp
Morrigan: ChrisG
Nemesis: Unknown
Nova: Ifrit/Combofiend
Phoenix: FChamp
Phoenix Wright: who cares
Rocket Raccoon: Kusoru
Ryu: RayRay
Sentinel: RayRay
Spencer: Knives/Combofiend/Yipes/Pr Rog
Storm: Fanatiq
Strider: Clockwork
Super Skrull: some Japanese player I saw once
Taskmaster: DJHoushen
Thor: Abegen/Royal Flush
Trish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVMIIBomYag
Tron Bonne: that kid that beat noah just becuase he's under 10
Vergil: Yipes/Richard
Viewtiful Joe: Kusoru
Wesker: everyone that uses him
Wolverine: PRBalrog/Justin Wong
X-23: Tatsu
Zero: Mihe
Amaterasu: MarlinPie
C. Viper: MarlinPie
Chris: LLND
Dante: Yipes/Richard/Pr Rog
Dr. Strange: That Japanese guy
Dormammu: FChamp
Dr. Doom: MarlinPie
Felicia: Justin Wong
Firebrand: Zak Bennet
Frank West: Kusoru/Combofiend/Justin Wong
Haggar: Bum
Hawkeye: Combofiend
Hsien-Ko: LLND
Iron Fist: Justin Wong
Iron Man: Joker/ That japanese guy that plays dr.strange
Magneto: RayRay/Joker/Fanatiq/Fchamp
Morrigan: ChrisG
Nemesis: Unknown
Nova: Ifrit/Combofiend
Phoenix: FChamp
Phoenix Wright: who cares
Rocket Raccoon: Kusoru
Ryu: RayRay
Sentinel: RayRay
Spencer: Knives/Combofiend/Yipes/Pr Rog
Storm: Fanatiq
Strider: Clockwork
Super Skrull: some Japanese player I saw once
Taskmaster: DJHoushen
Thor: Abegen/Royal Flush
Trish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVMIIBomYag
Tron Bonne: that kid that beat noah just becuase he's under 10
Vergil: Yipes/Richard
Viewtiful Joe: Kusoru
Wesker: everyone that uses him
Wolverine: PRBalrog/Justin Wong
X-23: Tatsu
Zero: Mihe
are people saying kusuru is the best rocket raccoon just because they haven't seen others? hell i've seen more of rocket from basic sausage and quotes so i would give them that title. i don't remember seeing anything in particular from kusuru that made me say he was the best one out there.
JeTmAn81
Member
I think tournament results probably speak more to the efficacy of a player with a particular character than anything else. Kusoru's the only guy to win a major tournament with RR, and he beat some of the best players in the world along the way.
but joe was the character he really won with. yeah log trap was the key but i wouldn't count him as the best rocket just because of that. that's like saying viscant had the best haggar just because he won evo with him on the team.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I dunno, Kusoru was doing some crazy stuff with Raccoon. teleport into throw, log trap + shopping cart assist, pushing people into the corner with 6H xx Log Trap. Dude knows what's up with his characters.
JeTmAn81
Member
Honestly, in terms of the amount of good point Haggars at the time of EVO 2011, Viscant could've been named amongst the best players of that character. It's all about the competition, and in the case of RR Joe's the only one to go the distance with him. And he wasn't just Log Trapping it the whole time, either. He beat Filipino Champ's Phoenix once with point Rocket, and held his own pretty much any time he actually got a chance to play with Rocket on screen. So until some big host of tournament-winning Rocket Raccoons starts showing up, I think Kusoru is the guy.
Professor Beef
Banned
AgeoJoe knows some good stuff with Raccoon, but he's hardly the best Raccoon player out there.
biosnake20
Member
Seth said they tried that but didn't like the way it worked.
JeTmAn81
Member
It seems like Vergil's Spiral Swords is kind of the Marvel 2 version of Ouroboros for this game. I don't really have a problem with Strider's being a level 3 as it keeps it from being overused. I just wish the timing for comboing from Formation B shot into his *other* level 3, Ragnarok, wasn't so annoyingly tight.
JeTmAn81
Member
Also, boo this man, to anybody not naming Noel Brown as one of, if not the best Frank West. He's put in the work with that character, and it shows. How does Combofiend automatically get listed as one of the best FW's when he only just started playing the character? Are them some videos of him destroying everybody with Frank that I haven't seen?
biosnake20
Member
Yes.
JeTmAn81
Member
Linky linky
Noel's....kinda predictable. Even if he's putting time into the game, it doesn't "seem" like he is.
Combofiend's Frank did more damage and was more effective than Noel's Frank has been the entire time he's been using him. Not that I'm saying Combo's is the best, because we've only seen it in one tournament.
I don't see what's special about Noel's Frank really. I mean it's good, but not exceptional. Fuck, the other day he was throwing out random shopping carts against Morrigan like he'd think it'd work. He drops his mid-screen BnBs often, many matches goes without getting him levelled up, etc.
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