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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT2| New Age of Zeroes

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K

Karsticles

Member
SolarKnight said:
Well, yeah, if you choose the assists that actually give them synergy, it's not a bad team at all, but what if it's that same team but with the completely wrong assists (not missile, not pendulum, not laser)?
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If you go by that method, then it's a lot harder to argue for what team is the worst. For example, take Dormammu/Wesker/Magneto. This is a good team. But if I make it:
Dormammu (Liberation)
Wesker (Jaguar Kick)
Magneto (Force Field)

That's a pretty terrible team.

Or:
C. Viper (Seismo)
Magneto (Force Field)
Amaterasu (Solar Flare)

C. Viper is going to be really crappy on this team. Will it be worse than Phoenix Wright / Hsien-ko / Shuma-Gorath with bad assists picked? Maybe, it's hard to say. We don't have a lot of tournament evidence to back up claims about how this would go. Hsien-ko at least has 3 decent assists, so it's already a step ahead of the above teams. What makes Phoenix Wright do poorly is that he can't keep the onslaught of characters + assists off of him during normal play. If C. Viper no longer has any supporting assist, can she still beat Wright 1v1? Likely so, but I hope that my post has helped demonstrate how a "worst characters + worst assists" battle is a really tough team to determine.

Clearly, Dr. Doom wouldn't be on such a team.

Sixfortyfive said:
Chun-Li would have to be on a "worst team" imo. I can't think of any other character in the game with pretty much no reason to pick. All of the other characters considered to be "bad" have that one redeeming quality that could theoretically be utilized in some specific team setup: better assists, better damage, better something. I think characters that are bad in most aspects but good in at least one are better off than those who are poor at everything.
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She has the infinite! Umm...yeah. Remember when people wanted her nerfed because she was the #1 assist at pre-release? Hahahaha.
 
S

SolarKnight

Member
Karsticles said:
If you go by that method, then it's a lot harder to argue for what team is the worst. For example, take Dormammu/Wesker/Magneto. This is a good team. But if I make it:
Dormammu (Liberation)
Wesker (Jaguar Kick)
Magneto (Force Field)

That's a pretty terrible team.

Or:
C. Viper (Seismo)
Magneto (Force Field)
Amaterasu (Solar Flare)

C. Viper is going to be really crappy on this team. Will it be worse than Phoenix Wright / Hsien-ko / Shuma-Gorath with bad assists picked? Maybe, it's hard to say. We don't have a lot of tournament evidence to back up claims about how this would go. Hsien-ko at least has 3 decent assists, so it's already a step ahead of the above teams. What makes Phoenix Wright do poorly is that he can't keep the onslaught of characters + assists off of him during normal play. If C. Viper no longer has any supporting assist, can she still beat Wright 1v1? Likely so, but I hope that my post has helped demonstrate how a "worst characters + worst assists" battle is a really tough team to determine.

Clearly, Dr. Doom wouldn't be on such a team.
Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much. The absolute worst team would have to be one that simply can't compete in the current metagame, and has no synergy at all with its assists and DHCs. With all the possible team combinations it's pretty much impossible to determine which is the worst, we can only gues what some horrible teams would be like.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
SolarPowered said:
Number one on GAF, right? SRK was jizzing it's pants over Hsien-Ko's gong assist. Those guys were nuts.
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I don't remember where things are said very well, since I post on SRK, GAF, and GFAQs. I remember the gong complaints - hahaha!

Remember when Arthur could throw 8 daggers per jump?
 
R

rexor0717

Member
I've been trying to figure out a midscreen TAC for Doom for a long time now. I'm glad Marlin did the discovering, now I can copy it.
 
A

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
I finally saw the Avengers. I thought seeing it would make me play my Thor team again but instead I just want to play Arkham City more from the previews lol.
 
A

Azure J

Member
Did I ever tell you guys how much I love my main? To be honest though, I'm surprised more people didn't realize earlier that anchor Dante should only mean Devil Triggers all day err day. Millon Dollars eats too much time out of XF3 and a wrong judgement using it is easily punished.

Also, video proof of that Stinger hit box dissonance I mentioned some time ago in the thread except this time with practical applications.

SolarPowered said:
People say this, but the number of team combinations can be staggering. It gets to a point where it only makes sense to count a certain number while the rest are ignored until tech is discovered which may never even happen. I always figured it would be easier to rate individuals based on what they offer and to build a team that meets specific requirements(DHCs, THCs, alpha counters, assists, inescapable setups, etc) afterwards. Team tier lists should complement single character tier lists. I guess that would work too.
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I can get down with this.
 
JeTmAn81

JeTmAn81

Member
It seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to break characters down into archetypes. A lot of characters while individually nuanced tend to follow the same type of game plan. For instance:

Teleporter Class
* Examples include Wesker, Vergil, Dante, Strider. Their health is lower than average to help restrain them from playing too aggressively.
* Teleporters want to surprise their enemies by appearing suddenly from unexpected directions and attacking
* Beam assists such as Electromagnetic Disruptor and Plasma Beam help teleporters trick their enemies into eating a projectile while blocking the wrong way

Heavy Class
* Examples include Hulk, Sentinel, Haggar, Tron, Nemesis, She-Hulk
* Heavies want to intimidate their opponents with attacks that have large hitboxes, super armor and/or general priority. Their offense is backed up with command grabs to deal with opponents who play too defensively. Typically they have greater than average health.
* Lockdown assists such as Drones, Hidden Missiles or Tatsu can help heavies close distance with their opponents and look for opportunities to attack or command grab. Beam assists can help fight opponents with greater zoning capability. OTG assists can be helpful for combo extension on the heavies' high damage combo sequences.


Then again, specifications like that won't really help much when it comes to tier lists, but it's pretty easy to see that teleporter characters are generally better than the heavies. I do think this kind of breakdown would be helpful for someone who wants to pick a character and build some team synergy around them.
 
F

FSLink

Banned
mr. puppy said:
i like that hsien-ko/PW team, sounds hilarious if it could actually work out.

BTW, what is the best PW team?
Click to expand...

Not too sure on the best PW team but I do like Spencer/Wright/Doom.

I use Wright/Dante/Wesker myself and it works okay too. I'd also imagine if his assists still had invincibility, Morrigan/Wright/Doom would be pretty overpowered.
 
G

Grecco

Member
mr. puppy said:
i like that hsien-ko/PW team, sounds hilarious if it could actually work out.

BTW, what is the best PW team?
Click to expand...

Something like Assist/Wright/Assist


like Haggar/Wright/Chris

build 2 bars, dhc into wright, have him look for evidence and then hard tag out
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I made a huge ass post about how the teams listed in the previous pages aren't actually terrible because there is some synergy going on in them. Then there was a 500 Server Error and I lost all my stuff.

Adding to the "classes".

Teleporter (Strider, Vergil, Wesker, Dante, Strange)
Heavies (Hulk, Haggar, Thor, Sentinel, Nemesis, She Hulk, Tron)
Orthodox Ground Rushdown (Wolverine, Jill, X-23, Felicia, Iron Fist)
Unorthodox Rushdown (Spencer, Spider Man, Akuma, Ryu, Shuma, Super Skrull, Chun Li)
Air dashers/Fliers (Magneto, Storm, Iron Man, Doom, Trish, Nova, Dormammu, Firebrand)
Long Ranged Zoners (Hawkeye, Taskmaster, Deadpool, Chris, Arthur, Ghost Rider)
Mixed (MODOK, Joe, Morrigan, Viper, Zero, Captain America, Rocket Raccoon, Amaterasu)
Gimmicks (Phoenix, Wright, Hsien Ko, Frank West)

Listed characters based off of their most prominent characteristic. I do realize that some characters belong in various categories (like Dante belongs in mix, same for Dormammu who belongs in mixed, teleporter and air dashers).

even without million dollars his comboes just take too fucking long for him to be an effective x-factor user
Click to expand...
That's a myth. Dante is one of the best users of XF but people don't use him properly and do lazy combos. While in DT and XF his Air Raid combos do STUPID amount of damage VERY FAST to save up that XF time. He also has various infinites including the very powerful Jam Session infinite while in XF. In XF he is also able to combo off of his air throw properly.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Jay Viscant Schneider posted his tier list:

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/umv...75mcaadiv72cpk3hdg4e9addjikn3en-bk3-naViscant

I cannot understand why so many pros rate Spider Man in the same tier as Iron Fist. It's really mind boggling. The rest of his tier list is decent. I think he has a gap between Top tier, Upper + Lower Mid and Low tier. Phoenix seems to be the top of Upper mid. Oh and he said there is no order in the groups.

Viscant's remarks on Storm:

Yeah Storm's ability to tear teams down as a support is strong and I still believe whirlwind assist is a bit slept on. Storm in the 2nd spot isn't bad for clearing up hit boxes and probably should be used more to deal with Morrigan stuff.

This exactly. I typed up a long post that was eaten by the Firefox monster but this is it in summary form. Storm is basically the anti-support character and in some cases she can force x-factor. The more important Morrigan becomes the more important Storm becomes because Storm can make the decision to nuke Morrigan's support (Doom) and Morrigan gets to watch and do nothing. Even if it takes multiple meters and your x-factor, a very high amount of resources used (arrrrrrrrm, hail, x, hail for example although stalking flare, hail, no x required, hail is infinitely better and still kills Doom dead and is a better team anyways) this can come close to winning you the game right there. She also makes Phoenix go away which isn't as important as Vergil becomes more important.

In addition to that she has decent tools on her own, solid push-proof rushdown, above average TAC game fullscreen, a decent set of air normals, 1.5 half-decent assists (though not dominant) etc.

She's essentially a mid-tier character with a single very important ability that can ruin your team at any point and make you stop playing your game. This is a very very very very useful ability to have and she would be higher if she was better on her own. Seeing Storm close to the bottom and Morrigan and Phoenix close to the top on other lists is an incongruity that really bothers me.
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%.
 
O

Oldschoolgamer

The physical form of blasphemy
AzureJericho said:
Did I ever tell you guys how much I love my main? To be honest though, I'm surprised more people didn't realize earlier that anchor Dante should only mean Devil Triggers all day err day. Millon Dollars eats too much time out of XF3 and a wrong judgement using it is easily punished.

Also, video proof of that Stinger hit box dissonance I mentioned some time ago in the thread except this time with practical applications.



I can get down with this.
Click to expand...

Wait. He basically teleports to the other side of the character? edit: Next level trickster bullshit. lolol

Can Vergil do this too?
 
A

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
Dahbomb said:
Jay Viscant Schneider posted his tier list:

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/umv...75mcaadiv72cpk3hdg4e9addjikn3en-bk3-naViscant

I cannot understand why so many pros rate Spider Man in the same tier as Iron Fist. It's really mind boggling. The rest of his tier list is decent. I think he has a gap between Top tier, Upper + Lower Mid and Low tier. Phoenix seems to be the top of Upper mid. Oh and he said there is no order in the groups.

Viscant's remarks on Storm:



Agreed 100%.
Click to expand...

LOL @Doom
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
That mix up was only possible because of Dante's double air dash during DT. Vergil cannot do that.

LOL @Doom
Click to expand...
He explained that too:

Doom ended up where he is because he's a solid assist for basically every one of the top 10-15 characters including being mandatory for some characters who drastically alter metagame (Phoenix, Morrigan) and can form a dominant combination with the other top characters (Zero, Vergil). While I think Doom isn't that great with Viper and that other assists are better, the Viper who wins stuff has Doom on his team also so I feel like that means something.
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And I agree with that logic too. Doom is a major component of the current meta game in Ultimate. Doom is a team maker and a character like that who is actually in the range of high tier or above as a point character... is easily top tier. You can't go around making a team of 3 top tiers like Zero/Viper/Vergil... that's just bad and you will lose to good teams. Simply replacing just one of those characters with Doom makes the team top tier.
 
S

SolarKnight

Member
Note to self: XF3 Nemesis hurts. A lot.
Man, good thing the raccoon is kind of a bad match up for him x.x

Dahbomb said:
I cannot understand why so many pros rate Spider Man in the same tier as Iron Fist. It's really mind boggling.
Click to expand...

Seriously, it makes no sense. Well, ok, it does since there are not that many Spideys, but he has no business at all being that low anyways.
 
G

Grecco

Member
Viscants list is probably the best ive seen. I dont know about doom Plus Vergil ( I think theres better beams for Vergil) but overall his list is solid.
 
S

SolarPowered

Member
Dahbomb said:
Jay Viscant Schneider posted his tier list:

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/umv...75mcaadiv72cpk3hdg4e9addjikn3en-bk3-naViscant

I cannot understand why so many pros rate Spider Man in the same tier as Iron Fist. It's really mind boggling. The rest of his tier list is decent. I think he has a gap between Top tier, Upper + Lower Mid and Low tier. Phoenix seems to be the top of Upper mid. Oh and he said there is no order in the groups.
Click to expand...
It's a pro thing. It was freaky to see Chris G calling Chris and Cap low tier in the fingercramp video from a few days ago. It's like there is a top ten and then everyone else is low tier.
 
A

Azure J

Member
I feel like at times the collective GAF tier lists we make are the ones I'd support more than a lot of the pro's stuff, although Viscant's got some good thought backing his. F. Champ to a lesser extent.

God's Beard said:
You have to admit though, that last mixup was so fresh.
Click to expand...

I immediately realized that I don't use his double dash in the air enough when I saw that. Crystal for blockstun into that is just whoa.

Dahbomb said:
I made a huge ass post about how the teams listed in the previous pages aren't actually terrible because there is some synergy going on in them. Then there was a 500 Server Error and I lost all my stuff.

Adding to the "classes".

Teleporter (Strider, Vergil, Wesker, Dante, Strange)
Heavies (Hulk, Haggar, Thor, Sentinel, Nemesis, She Hulk, Tron)
Orthodox Ground Rushdown (Wolverine, Jill, X-23, Felicia, Iron Fist)
Unorthodox Rushdown (Spencer, Spider Man, Akuma, Ryu, Shuma, Super Skrull, Chun Li)
Air dashers/Fliers (Magneto, Storm, Iron Man, Doom, Trish, Nova, Dormammu, Firebrand)
Long Ranged Zoners (Hawkeye, Taskmaster, Deadpool, Chris, Arthur, Ghost Rider)
Mixed (MODOK, Joe, Morrigan, Viper, Zero, Captain America, Rocket Raccoon, Amaterasu)
Gimmicks (Phoenix, Wright, Hsien Ko, Frank West)

Listed characters based off of their most prominent characteristic. I do realize that some characters belong in various categories (like Dante belongs in mix, same for Dormammu who belongs in mixed, teleporter and air dashers).
Click to expand...

So that 500 error wasn't just in my mind... Meanwhile, I like this setup, though I do agree with your notes that some characters could (and in some situations should) be moved around between their archetypes.

That's a myth. Dante is one of the best users of XF but people don't use him properly and do lazy combos. While in DT and XF his Air Raid combos do STUPID amount of damage VERY FAST to save up that XF time. He also has various infinites including the very powerful Jam Session infinite while in XF. In XF he is also able to combo off of his air throw properly.
Click to expand...

Real talk. Dante gets Vergil's S-H-S-H like chain with his shot loops in XF3, it's almost that brainless and does WILD levels of damage while building equally stupid amounts of meter for precious Devil Triggers. Other things of note are the ability to chuck up to 8 Thunderbolts if you do the starting 2 then fly quick enough, comboing off of Million Carats which is like the single hardest hitting attack he has, easier (re: derp like) Bold Cancel Teleports meaning you can't run [/Juggs] and of course his entire arsenal which makes him thoroughly frightening for those coming in while he sets up his mixups. Guess wrong and die.

On a bit of a tangent, the comboing off air throws was so ridiculous yet so "duh" a thing to me when I saw how it really should be done. It's like no matter how much I familiarize myself with his tools, I'm always seeing applications that make me go "wow" every ten seconds.

Oldschoolgamer said:
Wait. He basically teleports to the other side of the character? edit: Next level trickster bullshit. lolol

Can Vergil do this too?
Click to expand...

Nah, it's a situational thing but something that can be setup if you have assists that stay out for a while in front of the other character. I discovered this as a glitch in training mode on Frank West solo though, but this video is trying to tell me that it can be done at any time with an assist and certain characters thanks to their hit boxes.
 
S

smurfx

get some go again
fuck those that say spiderman is that low tier. after playing killasasa i know that is false. watch some dude come out of nowhere with a tremendous spiderman and blow people away at majors and suddenly people will be changing their tune.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
I would put Storm on my team if she could handle flying solo.

Frantic said:
Shame he can't do that still, would make him really good.

Also, didn't all of Dorm's Liberation spells OTG at one point?
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The 1C and 2C spells did, but I don't recall if 1D and 2D did, only that some people claimed they did. I wish 1C and 2C still did.

AzureJericho said:
Did I ever tell you guys how much I love my main? To be honest though, I'm surprised more people didn't realize earlier that anchor Dante should only mean Devil Triggers all day err day. Millon Dollars eats too much time out of XF3 and a wrong judgement using it is easily punished.
Click to expand...
What's the deal with Vortex, anyway? My opponent flips out of it all the time.

JeTmAn81 said:
It seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to break characters down into archetypes.
Click to expand...
So many characters are hybrids. It's pretty silly to create these kinds of categories IMO.
 
K

Killa Sasa

Member
smurfx said:
fuck those that say spiderman is that low tier. after playing killasasa i know that is false. watch some dude come out of nowhere with a tremendous spiderman and blow people away at majors and suddenly people will be changing their tune.
Click to expand...

Hoping to go to Canada Cup this year to make this happen.

In b4 Canadienz r free :3 Honestly, the longer he flies under the radar, the better.

Glad that people are realizing Storm is really damn good though. So many wrote her off as LOL NOT MAGNEETOH. She's just a different take on the tridash archetype with the Eraser as a DHC, so you always have to be careful if meter is on deck.

Agreed on Chris sentiments -- Redfield causes a lot of problems when backed properly. Make a mistake = bye bye character.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
God's Beard said:
I swear I remember it originally being unblockable.
Click to expand...
There were a lot of claims and rumors floating around Dormammu pre-release. I don't place any confidence in them unless a video showed it. Some people said it was unblockable, but we never saw a video of someone trying to block low. So it's not a very convincing claim. Similarly, pre-UMvC3 release at least 3 people claimed Dormammu could do Purification in the air, but it turned out that they just didn't know the goddamn difference between Purification and Liberation.

Pre-release, a lot of assumptions get made. "MODOK can't block" is my favorite.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
SolarPowered said:
It's a pro thing. It was freaky to see Chris G calling Chris and Cap low tier in the fingercramp video from a few days ago. It's like there is a top ten and then everyone else is low tier.
Click to expand...
I can expect it from other pros but not really from Viscant. He was one of the people who actually backed Spider Man as a legit threat in Vanilla.

I think Trish is rated lower on most pro's tier list because of damage potential and meta game problems (*COUGH* Vajra *COUGH*). I really can't find any other logic for it.

The good thing from these pro lists is that X-23 is finally getting some recognition and well deserved "high tier" placements. I was tired of seeing her in "low" to lower mid as well.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
enzo_gt said:
Your disappointed retroactively because of something released afterwards?

Next to Hsien-Ko and Nemesis, I'd say Akuma is the most expendable in the cast of characters that should be replaced.
Click to expand...
No, I had high expectations when the leaked list was out. This video is closer to how I imagined Marvel Akuma this time around. I thought they'd take him to the next level. Instead they kept him pretty standard. I like Akuma, so I was glad to see him in. Capcom just seems to hate giving characters I like synergy together. :p

Edit: Since Captain Commando was out, I kept hoping that Akuma would get his "Corridor" hyper from an older game (I forget which) as a special so I could keep a Dormammu/Sentinel/"Captain Commando" team going.

I'm still waiting. :-/
 
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