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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT2| New Age of Zeroes

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S

Solune

Member
Karsticles said:
Damn, thanks for taking the time to do that. I have two thoughts I want to experiment with still to see if it can go higher:
1) After the first Bon Voyage, j.H into the second one instead of doing it straight from the ground. This works after the launcher, so why not here?

2) After the first Bon Voyage, don't dash at all, but launcher into j.H, Bon Voyage.

Why does it have to be an aerial Bon Voyage after the Dormammu assist version you have up there?

I wish that after the first Bon Voyage, I could do Dormammu call, s.H, c.H, Bon Voyage, but Dormammu isn't available for the DHC if I do that. Boo!

The other question I have to answer is: "what do I do if my combos starts with Bon Voyage?"
The word "voyage" just got to that point where if you type the same word a lot, it starts to look funny to you.
Most of my combos do start off of Bon Voyage, so that definitely needs to be figured out. Especially if it's from the far end of the screen, I'll have to figure out a way to switch sides.

Edit: Also, this is really neat for me because from day one of this game I wanted to find a reason to do two Bon Voyages in one combo. Yay! I was actually tempted to hold back on this knowledge until after Evo just in case it gets nerfed. :-/
.
Click to expand...

Ok so for the first option, doesn't work, HSD kicks in too early because no launcher is involved.
The second combo does work after the relaunch, but J.H can only hit once or the opponent will be slightly too far for the Bon Voyage.
Third, Apparently you don't need to aerial Bon Voyage, I just didn't (still don't) know it's properties.
For the fourth inquiry, After a Bon Voyage you can

Dash under, S > J.MMH2H xx Helldive L > C.H xx Bon Voyage to get the same setup, it also almost does the same damage as the regular combo.

Edit: Ok good I haven't been exposed yet, seems like i was mistaken. Due to the nature of Bon Voyage the followup is tricky stuff, there's alot of factors involved...

The best followup so far I found is, Bon Voyage > J.MH(one hit)2H xx Helldive L > S.H xx Bon Voyage.

Doing other variations makes it so that Firebrand is too close to the opponent in the opposite corner and Stalking Flare hits. Another thing I wanted to bring up is, Bon Voyage has some weird auto correcting / crossup properties...

Edit 2: OMG Infrits Vergil is errrgh making me frustrated as fuck.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Solune said:
Ok so for the first option, doesn't work, HSD kicks in too early because no launcher is involved.
The second combo does work after the relaunch, but J.H can only hit once or the opponent will be slightly too far for the Bon Voyage.
Third, Apparently you don't need to aerial Bon Voyage, I just didn't (still don't) know it's properties.
For the fourth inquiry, After a Bon Voyage you can

Dash under, S > J.MMH2H xx Helldive L > C.H xx Bon Voyage to get the same setup, it also almost does the same damage as the regular combo.
Click to expand...
Hahaha, you're saving me a lot of time tomorrow sir. For that fourth inquiry, I meant a Bon Voyage from the extremity of the other screen. Normally Firebrand players just dash forward once afterward and connect c.H. I doubt I have time to wavedash underneath reliably. A lot of my combos start this way, so that's why it's of concern to me.

Aerial Bon Voyage and ground Bon Voyage are the same except that the aerial has frame advantage on block and the ground one is -30. They share all other properties.

I wonder what's up with launchers extending HSD. Must be an interesting formula...
 
S

smurfx

get some go again
ok i'm getting down haggars otg relaunch with hawkeyes greyhound assist after already using my ground bounce. which means so much to my damage output as i can get close to 800k damage without meters from a random pipe hits which i get alot.
 
S

Solune

Member
Karsticles said:
Hahaha, you're saving me a lot of time tomorrow sir. For that fourth inquiry, I meant a Bon Voyage from the extremity of the other screen. Normally Firebrand players just dash forward once afterward and connect c.H. I doubt I have time to wavedash underneath reliably. A lot of my combos start this way, so that's why it's of concern to me.

Aerial Bon Voyage and ground Bon Voyage are the same except that the aerial has frame advantage on block and the ground one is -30. They share all other properties.

I wonder what's up with launchers extending HSD. Must be an interesting formula...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how you're starting the combo but from what I'm experimenting with, Demon Missile M is a pretty good followup, Firebrand is on the opposite side AND he can link L or M after, but the timing for the links might take awhile to get down. It still allows the followup for the DHC glitch though.

Edit:
The second combo does work after the relaunch, but J.H can only hit once or the opponent will be slightly too far for the Bon Voyage.
Click to expand...
Wanted to note that this is also inaccurate, it worked when I didn't intend to do it so it must be a timing sensitive combo. So some of my information is probably no correct due to not having any familiarity with Firebrand.
 
M

mr. puppy

Banned
yeah Karsticles I played with your team some last night, your approach to it works well though I really have a hard time with missiles/vajra, which a load of teams are going to slowly start using more and more and then it just gets worse.

Its pretty neat though....your neutral assist is basically Stalking Flare and you can use Morrigan to help fuel that, giving you a lot of more instances of use for it.
 
K

kevo_huevo

Member
i think im going to try to put in more work with hawkeye now. i just feel too fradulent using dark wesker (and also, my wesker is fradulent).
task (h arrows)/hawkeye(triple arrow)/spencer(slant shot). i think there might be some mixup opportunites off otg freeze arrows and spencer, though i havent tried yet.
maybe i'll just using cap/sent/wesker as a secondary team.
edit: does anyone use skrull? he seems kind of fun to learn, and might be a good way to break up the fact that im most comfortable using very linear characters
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Discovered some difficult, but good Morrigan/Firebrand and Morrigan/Dormammu tech today. It turns out that Dark Fire/Chaotic Flame -> Finishing Shower can be followed up by a Shadow Blade M into a second Finishing Shower. Does more damage than Dormammu's level 3 alone, so it seems worth doing. It seems inconsistent for some weird reason, though. Shadow Blade M hits sometimes and whiffs others.

Solune said:
I'm not sure how you're starting the combo but from what I'm experimenting with, Demon Missile M is a pretty good followup, Firebrand is on the opposite side AND he can link L or M after, but the timing for the links might take awhile to get down. It still allows the followup for the DHC glitch though.

Edit:

Wanted to note that this is also inaccurate, it worked when I didn't intend to do it so it must be a timing sensitive combo. So some of my information is probably no correct due to not having any familiarity with Firebrand.
Click to expand...
Really, Demon Missile M? I'll have to try that. The move is like -16 on hit so I'm surprised to hear you say that.

I also am having a weird kind of trouble doing this:
c.LMHS, sj.MMH2H, c.HS, sj.MMH, qcf.S, s.S, sj.H, qcf.S

And following it up with Luminous Body -> Stalking Flare. For some reason the DHC glitch doesn't occur. Were you able to get the whole setup to work? I'm trying to figure out what the problem is. My opponent just falls normally.

mr. puppy said:
yeah Karsticles I played with your team some last night, your approach to it works well though I really have a hard time with missiles/vajra, which a load of teams are going to slowly start using more and more and then it just gets worse.

Its pretty neat though....your neutral assist is basically Stalking Flare and you can use Morrigan to help fuel that, giving you a lot of more instances of use for it.
Click to expand...
Those are definitely my worst matchups, with Jam Session being a distant third. Glad you enjoyed playing the team. You can always sub Morrigan out for Doom and the team gets stronger and doesn't have those as bad matchups anymore.
Nerf Hidden Missiles and Vajra!

AzureJericho said:
Second vid finally went up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO1UUq8zSYU&feature=youtu.be

That's all from me for the night/early morning. Sorry for the cliffhanger but the B-Side to this episode will be up later. I'm beat. :lol
Click to expand...

AzureJericho said:
Alright, Part 2 of my Jam Session/Vajira trap is up. This one deals with converting a hit into real damage.
Click to expand...
Good stuff! I think the first video is more impractical than the second, though.

Also, I'll just throw this out there: Ryu's Denjin Mode tatsu hyper is the best looking thing in this game. So hype whenever someone does it.
 
A

Azure J

Member
I'm so upset right now, I could have gave that second video a little more flair if I had just gone into DHC glitch between Devil Trigger - Veil of Mist, tagged back in Dante and did some Volcano - j.S reps. :lol
 
S

Solune

Member
Karsticles said:
Really, Demon Missile M? I'll have to try that. The move is like -16 on hit so I'm surprised to hear you say that.

I also am having a weird kind of trouble doing this:
c.LMHS, sj.MMH2H, c.HS, sj.MMH, qcf.S, s.S, sj.H, qcf.S

And following it up with Luminous Body -> Stalking Flare. For some reason the DHC glitch doesn't occur. Were you able to get the whole setup to work? I'm trying to figure out what the problem is. My opponent just falls normally.
Click to expand...

I think the timing on Demon Missile M is pretty tricky, doing it too late obviously hits but makes the followup impossible and too early makes you whiff. So while it does work sometimes it may not be worth the effort, BUT so far it seems to be the only way right now to be able to setup up the unblockable if you are starting the combo with a Bon Voyage.

If the opponent is falling out, then I believe the he is not close enough to the corner. I've had this happen multiple times. It's part of the reason I edited in the last few posts :lol.

If you'd like I can upload a vid of the setups I found but I only have a camcorder :lol.

I've been meaning to upload some Vergil combos anyways, it would get me off my lazy ass.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
Killa Sasa said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPiqKAB4JC0&feature=relmfu

We all need a little backup.

*salute*
Click to expand...

This guy should do the EVO intros.

AzureJericho said:
Pause, he just learned sword formations? He got second place at a major with a Vergil that didn't know formations..? Dude is Sojiro from Rurouni Kenshin, bodies high tier with natural talent and don't afraid of anything.
Click to expand...

Well, natural talent and grinding out every fighting game every day with top players for over a decade.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Solune said:
I think the timing on Demon Missile M is pretty tricky, doing it too late obviously hits but makes the followup impossible and too early makes you whiff. So while it does work sometimes it may not be worth the effort, BUT so far it seems to be the only way right now to be able to setup up the unblockable if you are starting the combo with a Bon Voyage.

If the opponent is falling out, then I believe the he is not close enough to the corner. I've had this happen multiple times. It's part of the reason I edited in the last few posts :lol.

If you'd like I can upload a vid of the setups I found but I only have a camcorder :lol.

I've been meaning to upload some Vergil combos anyways, it would get me off my lazy ass.
Click to expand...
Really? Because I thought it was because my opponent was too close to the corner. Damn, not I'm really confused. Yeah, if you'd upload some videos that would be awesome, because I'm not understanding how this is working for you but not for me (and it's my damn character! lol). Thanks a lot for working with me on this.

Dahbomb said:
He is motivated...
Click to expand...
LOL. It just goes to show that Spiral Swords should be the level 2.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
A Pretty Panda said:
Uhh how do you conclude that from that?
Click to expand...
Spiral Swords is so good that there's almost no reason to ever spend an extra bar on the other two. Crowns is only useful if there's one character left. Blistering Swords is crap compared to Spiral Swords. Blistering Swords should be the level 1, and then shift into Spiral Swords for another bar. Spiral Swords is waaaaaay too good for a level 1 hyper. I would trade Chaotic Flame or Stalking Flare for it, easy.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
Karsticles said:
Spiral Swords is so good that there's almost no reason to ever spend an extra bar on the other two. Crowns is only useful if there's one character left. Blistering Swords is crap compared to Spiral Swords. Blistering Swords should be the level 1, and then shift into Spiral Swords for another bar. Spiral Swords is waaaaaay too good for a level 1 hyper. I would trade Chaotic Flame or Stalking Flare for it, easy.
Click to expand...

Walking through Chaotic Flame with spiral swords is fun. Ouroboros should be a level 2, that super is crap compared to Spiral Swords.
 
C

Chavelo

Member
kz3Dv.jpg


Nova terrorizing AE now. D:
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Those skins always weird me out. I don't get why you'd want to use them, since Seth clearly doesn't play like Nova.

Marvel-GAF:
Pretend that whatever team wins Evo will be guaranteed to receive at least one nerf per character. What team would you like to see win it just for the guaranteed nerfs?

Mine:
Zero (Hadangeki) / Dr. Doom (Hidden Missiles) / Strider (Vajra)
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
Hsien-Ko/Phoenix Wright/Iron Man

gold mode reduced to super armor, good evidence less likely to come out, iron man now only has the three upward air dashes.
 
JeTmAn81

JeTmAn81

Member
My top three nerfings would probably go to Zero (no more Buster cancel, do something about lightning loops), Doom (knockdown time off j.S halved, no more Hidden Missiles) and Vergil (no more disregarding hitstun, higher meter cost for swords).
 
S

Solune

Member
Karsticles said:
Those skins always weird me out. I don't get why you'd want to use them, since Seth clearly doesn't play like Nova.

Marvel-GAF:
Pretend that whatever team wins Evo will be guaranteed to receive at least one nerf per character. What team would you like to see win it just for the guaranteed nerfs?

Mine:
Zero (Hadangeki) / Dr. Doom (Hidden Missiles) / Strider (Vajra)
Click to expand...
Assist nerfs huh? Hard to say, I'm not a fan of nerfing assists (I think even Tron and Haggar should've kept their invincibility but nerf the hitstun inline with Ultimate)

Not exactly a logical team but at least these 3 individually I think it would make sense to adjust them.
Magneto(Disruptor) [Change to H Disruptor] / Strider (Vajra) [Change to ground bounce, soft knockdown if ground bounce was used] / Rocket Raccoon (Log Trap) [Change to spinning knockdown instead of Wallbounce]

Edit: An interesting thing I found out was that, She-Hulks Clothesline assist does NOT wallbounce, despite having a wallbounce when an enemy is not in a standing, neutral state. So they either forgot to adjust it in Ultimate or... kept it the same because they are assholes.
Killa Sasa said:
Vergil/Vergil/Vergil

Nerfs:

Vergil dies, Vergil is dead, Vergil is not alive anymore.
Click to expand...

Killing only motivates him you know, and he comes back as Nelo Angelo.

---

So I missed some hype Yipes @ CEO, gonna have to wait for the archive....
Does anyone have a video of Yipes beasting on Ricky at ECT?
 
K

Karsticles

Member
JeTmAn81 said:
The Dark Lord's secrets are revealed!
Click to expand...
It's more about that thread being filled with theoryfighters with strong opinions about the cast. I remember pages and pages of claims that Firebrand needs nerfs even though he's never won a major. Ridiculous.

Edit: Plus they rank by character instead of by team - lol! The only tier list I respect is Viscant's.

Professor Beef said:
Fixed, for Firebrand speak.
Click to expand...
Haha, nice.

Killa Sasa said:
Vergil/Vergil/Vergil

Nerfs:

Vergil dies, Vergil is dead, Vergil is not alive anymore.
Click to expand...
Doesn't Spider-man get in for free on him? And you have lots of aerial mobility to run away from swords.

Solune said:
Assist nerfs huh? Hard to say, I'm not a fan of nerfing assists (I think even Tron and Haggar should've kept their invincibility but nerf the hitstun inline with Ultimate)
Click to expand...
The problem with Tron and Haggar's invincible assists is that they favor quick characters over slow ones. Characters like Dormammu and Hulk don't have any response at all to Haggar, whereas a character like Wolverine can zip around to bait it, making it more balanced. They were so good that Evo had one in each team, and things would only have gotten worse from there. In general, I feel as though Marvel should reward offensive play, not turtling (I consider keepaway/zoning to still be offensive).

I just want slight nerfs to each!

Not exactly a logical team but at least these 3 individually I think it would make sense to adjust them.
Magneto(Disruptor) [Change to H Disruptor] / Strider (Vajra) [Change to ground bounce, soft knockdown if ground bounce was used] / Rocket Raccoon (Log Trap) [Change to spinning knockdown instead of Wallbounce]
Click to expand...
Ouch on the EM Disruptor nerf. If I had to choose three more characters it would be Magneto/Vergil/Hulk for nerfing. I know most people wouldn't agree with Hulk, but I think super armor on Gamma Charge is too good. Why are you buffing Vajra? -_-

Edit: An interesting thing I found out was that, She-Hulks Clothesline assist does NOT wallbounce, despite having a wallbounce when an enemy is not in a standing, neutral state. So they either forgot to adjust it in Ultimate or... kept it the same because they are assholes.
Click to expand...
Lame!
 
K

Killa Sasa

Member
Karsticles said:
Doesn't Spider-man get in for free on him? And you have lots of aerial mobility to run away from swords.
Click to expand...

Better than most, but everyone has to come down sometime. A full airstring won't run out the swords, and then tracking teleports means you have to deal with it anyway.

Plus, swinging the sword means you can't really airdash against him; the sword hits pretty far on his opposite side, and then autocorrects into a full string regardless. Dat Stand H also cancels out the Web Zip hitbox because Capcom is fun.

Also, SS means you can't really use that mobility, he can just tele right at you. Floaty air control without being able to zip around the way you want to makes it a really precise matchup where Vergil's margin of error is a looooooooooooot bigger than Spider-Man's. Navigating around or even away from those hitboxes while being floaty is pretty hard against the best Vergils. And once you start blocking, if he has solid strings/assists, you're probably not long for that character.

Vergil and Zero are the main reason I've looked into invincible CC tech and will consider starting X-23 on point if they prove to be enough of a threat.

Not impossible, but easily the worst of the sword guys to deal with. Would much rather fight a Zero than a Vergil with Spider-Man, since Zero can't slap on a bar and turn the match momentum around -- he has to think (a little bit ;) ) while using Sougenmu. It might return it to neutral, but at least he doesn't get to press buttons for free.
 
S

SolarKnight

Member
smurfx said:
zero/rocket/ammy. his zero/ammy were good but the character that did the most work was rocket. he just attacked and used his tools really well.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I can see the synergy there. I should give that team a try one of these days. Honestly, the only reason I've dropped Zero since the beginning of Ultimate is because I'm not confident in my execution for the loops -.-
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Zero/Spencer/Doom

That's never going to happen because no one plays that team but that's the 3 most ridiculous things in the game right now. UWG unscaled, Zero Lightning shenanigans and Hidden Missiles.

Other top tiers need to get shaved off the top too.

And please none of this Spiral Swords should be two meter crap. Nerf it's durability, nerf his meter gain/max damage scaling on special move damage especial Lunar Phase, shave off some of his hit boxes, reduce his XF bonuses, take out Round Trip glitch and Dimension Slash cross up... but no fucking way should Spiral Sword be 2 meter.
 
A

Azure J

Member
Speaking of Zero/Vergil, my brother has by and far come up with a combination of characters that positively shuts down all off my shit and then some. It's Zero (Ryuenjin)/Vergil (Rapid Slash)/Magneto (Estaka).

He learned Magneto "by accident", slapped him on the team in Dante's stead (He says himself that he hates playing Dante, only uses him for assist) and now he's running away with matches in a way I never expected.

Fuck I still need to level up my neutral game and conversions.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Killa Sasa said:
Better than most, but everyone has to come down sometime. A full airstring won't run out the swords, and then tracking teleports means you have to deal with it anyway.

Plus, swinging the sword means you can't really airdash against him; the sword hits pretty far on his opposite side, and then autocorrects into a full string regardless. Dat Stand H also cancels out the Web Zip hitbox because Capcom is fun.

Also, SS means you can't really use that mobility, he can just tele right at you. Floaty air control without being able to zip around the way you want to makes it a really precise matchup where Vergil's margin of error is a looooooooooooot bigger than Spider-Man's. Navigating around or even away from those hitboxes while being floaty is pretty hard against the best Vergils. And once you start blocking, if he has solid strings/assists, you're probably not long for that character.

Vergil and Zero are the main reason I've looked into invincible CC tech and will consider starting X-23 on point if they prove to be enough of a threat.

Not impossible, but easily the worst of the sword guys to deal with. Would much rather fight a Zero than a Vergil with Spider-Man, since Zero can't slap on a bar and turn the match momentum around -- he has to think (a little bit ;) ) while using Sougenmu. It might return it to neutral, but at least he doesn't get to press buttons for free.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that I'm not a Spider-man or Vergil player, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my thought is this:
1) Web Zip
2) Vergil uses s.H to cancel hitbox.
3) Cancel Web Zip into Web Toss.
4) Cancel Web Toss into Web Zip.
5) You're in.

Do you not have a neutral assist to help Spidey get in? Or are you like me and you just try to play extra patient with an aerial character?

Also, I think Zero is a reasonably thoughtful character. I only have a problem with him having so much screen presence alone (lightning -> buster -> lightning, etc.). I don't even care about him having the lightning loops. He's just too much of a one man army. He gets shut down by teams with really strong AA games. I don't see Magneto players Shockwave him enough.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Very few Vergils are going to try to negate the Web Zip hit box with the st.H. That's mostly knowledge that Spider Man players know, Vergil players will mostly be at normal jump height throwing out normals (ie Helm Breaker). You get him to block an assist then you are in, he has no real defensive moves and you can even hit him out of Spiral Swords. He also has no air mobility but you have to keep your air mobility in check because he can just dash beneath you and wait for you to drop to mix you up. If a Vergil player tries to stop you from moving around with Spiral Sword and then teleport in the air, he wasted that meter for some minor damage.

People overrate Vergil's ability to cancel projectiles. It's only useful at close range like against Zero when he tries to beat out your normals with his Buster, can't do it against Vergil hence why some Zero players claim that Vergil has superior match over Zero (he doesn't, let' just get that out of the way).
 
K

Killa Sasa

Member
Karsticles said:
Keep in mind that I'm not a Spider-man or Vergil player, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my thought is this:
1) Web Zip
2) Vergil uses s.H to cancel hitbox.
3) Cancel Web Zip into Web Toss.
4) Cancel Web Toss into Web Zip.
5) You're in.

Do you not have a neutral assist to help Spidey get in? Or are you like me and you just try to play extra patient with an aerial character?
Click to expand...

If I use a web zip to go from air to ground, or in the air at all, I can't use it again till I touch the ground.

My neutral assist is Hawkeye's triple arrow, which can be avoided by teleports and is essentially useless once swords are on. Hooray for dual sided, crazy durability forcefields :D

Also, a tracking teleport combined with a normal that is 60 percent of the screen that hits on both sides means even if I attempt to protect Hawkeye, it's still a pretty dangerous call.

I'm also salty that Vergil can mop up Hawkeye. As if the margin of error weren't bad enough, if swords are on I have to block -- he doesn't have a move that can touch him, including hypers :lol (Maybe a jumping S that hits Vergil directly on his head?).And blocking is dangerous against real Vergil teams.

Matchups are matchups though, and it is what it is, since Hawkeye is pretty much designed to own some characters' souls and lose to others. Hard to be too mad at that.
 
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