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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT2| New Age of Zeroes

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enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
It's not so much the matchup that bothers me, although that Iron Man's Repulsor and Akuma's beams and projectiles are quite effective of keeping her out. Had a nice long dance with Akuma one of those matches, which I sadly lost by a sliver. What mostly bothers me is dropping stuff that by all means should have resulted in a kill if I have the resources. Like relaunching through X-Factor, should always be a guaranteed kill. Any X-Factor combo = kill except in level one. Not having the meter for Dirt Nap also didn't do her any favors and her level 3 X-Factor is actually crazy hard to control sometimes so I prefer burning level 2.

What stuff mindfucked you?
Just Taskmaster's buttons, and how they blow up all my character's approaches D: I mean Akuma can go toe to toe with him, but by then I'm already losing usually. He has such a great selection of normals and they usually catch me trying to mash to try and catch you off guard, but Task wins out every time I panic like that.

I still can't escape those Dirt Nap set ups consistently enough. Some times the fly doesn't come out and I get screwed on my way down.
 

Solune

Member
I don't think that picture comes in a bigger resolution, though here's the original without the .jpg compression: http://fast1.onesite.com/capcom-uni...6a123985e0744d7cb0576fcc9ed9cae2.png?v=202200

From http://www.capcom-unity.com/brelsto...c3_art_contest_yields_four_impressive_winners
Thanks for that, will download when I get home.
This is why I want to smack people who say Dante has a damage scaling problem. Nice stuff!

Aside from Dante's problems, you need specific assists for these combo extensions. One of the issues with Marvel's metagame is picking an assist that both helps in the neutral game AND combo extension. Dante's solo BnB does ok damage, 700k isn't something to sneeze at. But when you want to do this type of combo people tend to tack on assists after a knockdown so OTG > Extension or OTG assist. Dante is hardpressed to get that extra damage depending on what type of team he has. I mean most people tend to pick a beam assist for opening people up, which changes your combo completely anyways.
 
Aside from Dante's problems, you need specific assists for these combo extensions. One of the issues with Marvel's metagame is picking an assist that both helps in the neutral game AND combo extension. Dante's solo BnB does ok damage, 700k isn't something to sneeze at. But when you want to do this type of combo people tend to tack on assists after a knockdown so OTG > Extension or OTG assist. Dante is hardpressed to get that extra damage depending on what type of team he has. I mean most people tend to pick a beam assist for opening people up, which changes your combo completely anyways.
I'm aware. I was speaking more toward the crowd that does j.S straight into Cold Shower, Prop Shredder, and then complains about his damage scaling. 700K solo is a respectable number. Real low damage characters like Morrigan, Firebrand, and Hsien-ko would kill for that.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Dante's damage scaling in the game is completely fair. You get as much damage out of the character as the amount of effort you put into him, all within reasonable constraints.
 

Azure J

Member
This is why I want to smack people who say Dante has a damage scaling problem. Nice stuff!

Thanks. :)

Moments after posting this in the SRK Dante thread, another person posted something that made me realize this combo can still be further optimized using the ever relevant triple Volcano, a j.S out of the Million Carats, and (most surprisingly) Rain Storm (mash H in air). I definitely have a lot to play with now.

Dante's damage scaling in the game is completely fair. You get as much damage out of the character as the amount of effort you put into him, all within reasonable constraints.

I agree with this myself. I just kinda wish if his hit stun decay wasn't so weird to predict sometimes. Dante's so good though, it feels wrong to think like this like I'm the fat kid whining that I didn't get a cherry with my sundae. That's not a good look. :p
 

Dahbomb

Member
Most Dante fans when they got their damage scaling/hit stun taken away:

no_and_noy03z.gif
 

Azure J

Member
Most Dante fans when they got their damage scaling/hit stun taken away:

no_and_noy03z.gif

ROFL.

At the same time, I think I was one of the few (would be) Dantes who felt OK with the changes. Vanilla Dante was like the secret bullshit boss in an RPG's post game after the crew has beaten the "best guy/gal" (Wolverine) and the general antagonist (Phoenix/JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAN).
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Let me know when you want to tiebreak enzo.
Probably not today, watching some Salty Battles and going to catch up on some Forza/KH stuff that I've been meaning to do for a week now, amongst some other things on the to-do list.

In the next few days perhaps.
 

Darksim

Member
I understand that Dante's special cancellable Helm Breaker makes a world of difference for general utility, but as a straight up move, I don't see how Vergil's isn't better. It comes out faster (I think?), is cancelable at the end (Dante's is bold cancelable, but I find the timing pretty tricky), and is -2 on block. I recognize that you can chicken guard it for a punish, but you can do the same with Dante's... and punish now before Hammer can come out.

Vergil's Helm Breaker is 10 frames faster than Dante's Helm Splitter. It's a pretty big difference. I already typed this up for a bunch of people on srk, but if you chain into S upon landing, or even better, cancel into Rising Sun, it makes it essentially impossible to punish it by chicken blocking, and gives you a combo in the event that it hits or either gives you a block string or is reasonably safe on block (Rising Sun > Trick Down is -3 IIRC).

Helm Breaker doesn't have the gigantic hitbox behind it that Helm Splitter does however, other than that I think they are the same in terms of hitboxes, Dante's could be a bit bigger but I don't really think so.

Helm Splitter isn't just bold cancelable upon landing, there is actually a 2 frame window to dash cancel upon touching the ground. The timing is still super finicky though. Being dash cancelable also makes it hyper cancelable as well (which is actually how I originally figured out the dash canceling. I also discovered it being bold cancelable, let me brag please).

On the flipside, though, I feel that Vergil's Stinger has some strengths over Dante's that were kind of glossed over... namely it will also lead to good raw damage and meter gain on hit confirm, whereas Dante will need to do a bold cancel teleport mixup w/ assist to get the same potential damage without a guarantee. The most he can get otherwise is a bold cancel reverb shock xx fireworks, reset/super.

For say, Dante with Disruptor, the Stinger > assist call can be timed so that it combos on hit, crosses up on block, and gives you time for an air dash crossup if they pushblock it to avoid the crossup. Vergil can't really throw out stinger without covering himself with an assist or spending meter to cancel it, or he brings a really serious risk upon himself.

Going on about meter, you can Dante can Stinger > DT or Stinger > Reverb Shock > DT the 4th hit and get a full combo from a standing opponent. Unlike Vergil with his swords you won't get to build the meter back though.
 

Dahbomb

Member
No worries about bragging about a real discovery, IMO.

Darksim, can you give me your thoughts on this?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40959956&postcount=1594

Dahbomb, too. I don't think you ever responded.
It's solid and it's what I used to do with Wesker as well (my very briefly used team of Wesker/Dormammu/Iron Man) although Wesker has the threat of command throw mix up if he got you to block the Dark Hole. My favorite is using a Dark Hole in the corner and throwing out something unsafe, they try to punish and get hit by a Dark Hole. Not recommended because it's highly risky but it has payed off. Calling Dark Hole in between Spiral Swords to keep them blocking and mass on the chip damage is good.

It's usable but requires finesse to properly place the Dark Hole where you want to, not like a beam where you don't have to worry about its placements. I would be extra careful of dealing with a Charging Star happy Cap, he blows up both Vergil and Dark Hole.
 
It's solid and it's what I used to do with Wesker as well (my very briefly used team of Wesker/Dormammu/Iron Man) although Wesker has the threat of command throw mix up if he got you to block the Dark Hole. My favorite is using a Dark Hole in the corner and throwing out something unsafe, they try to punish and get hit by a Dark Hole. Not recommended because it's highly risky but it has payed off. Calling Dark Hole in between Spiral Swords to keep them blocking and mass on the chip damage is good.

It's usable but requires finesse to properly place the Dark Hole where you want to, not like a beam where you don't have to worry about its placements. I would be extra careful of dealing with a Charging Star happy Cap, he blows up both Vergil and Dark Hole.
Cap is pretty much the bane of every character I love in this game. Once I really get the team down, I think Morrigan will be my choice on point against him. It's pretty hard for him to catch her in a Shield Toss or Charging Star, and IIRC Shadow Servant and Hyper Charging Star negate each other. I might be wrong on that.

What I like about this team is that any order is effective in its own way. Vergil, Dormammu, and Morrigan are all good at handling different kinds of teams, and Dark Harmonizer / Rapid Slash are good at being anti-rushdown and anti-zoning, respectively. Once I get the team combos down, it'll be a good feeling.
 
Managed to win that local tourney and defend my belt. Cleaner than before but not where I want to be. At least every member of my team played their role (have I mentioned how much <3 this team is before?). I honestly find playing against my scene just as hard as any other tourney since they're bound to have a better read on me. Usually it's a lot tougher than it was yesterday, don't know why.

Also, whoever said not dropping combos (even if they're not optimized) = high fight morale = massive advantage (think it was Fanatiq) is Le Genius. KISS gets you pretty far in tourneys since mistakes are so costly.

Gonna take a week or two's worth of a break to finish up Amazing Spider-Man, then it's back to the Danger Room. Gotta polish up those rough edges, missed a couple crucial things I just cannot afford to in a national major. Allllllllllmost there. Shaky starts at tournaments and not getting into murderface mode off the bat are probably my current demons, started to get more solid the further along it went.

I've got 10 weeks to stop dropping anything before it's time for Canada Cup. Feeling hella good about it though. Safe rush is best rush.

Really glad so many people in Canada play Magneto, smart Parker play makes that matchup pretty easy. Definitely want to find a better defuse for Wolverine, Nova, Super-Haggars, and possibly Vergil too. Not worried about Zero anymore I think :p

I also just got a raise today, so the past 3 days have been coming up Milhouse.
 

Darksim

Member
Dark Hole is a much better assist than people give it credit for (for the lockdown/protection and some combo extension stuff), but I wouldn't solely rely on it. It's screen coverage is severely limited and will do essentially nothing against many characters who can simply choose to play in the air and never land on it. It also won't do a damn thing in any serious projectile war.

This is somewhat less of a problem if you have Vergil sitting on a ton of meter so that he can BS his way into pressure, but I recall you stating that you play him on point, so this isn't the case.

I don't know who your third is, but if you are going to have both characters on the same team I would put Disruptor/Missiles/Insert beam assist here/maybe even drones behind them so that both characters get an ideal/near ideal screen control assist in addition to the more utility-like assist that each character can provide for each other. I personally go with Disruptor. (I've actually played that team to shut everyone up when they thought they could play Dormammu after seeing EVO, though I have Vergil, or Dante for that matter, second instead of first).

---

Playing with only Dark Hole sort of reminds me of my half-baked Magneto team, Mag/Vergil/Ammy. Of course, Magneto doesn't need a full screen assist to get around, and in the event I kill someone with the Mag/Vergil dhc (which, by the way, is ridiculous) I now get to play Vergil with Disruptor in addition to Cold Star lockdown. Even with Cold Star by itself, it's one of the few assists that can function in place of an OTG assist while retaining it's acceptable control of the horizontal playing field. By that point I should have plenty of meter anyway, and once that crap starts with Cold Star it pretty much never ends.

Edit: wow, three posts since I started writing this post, guess everyone ran back here after the stream ended.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Also, whoever said not dropping combos (even if they're not optimized) = high fight morale = massive advantage (think it was Fanatiq) is Le Genius. KISS gets you pretty far in tourneys since mistakes are so costly.
It was Fanatiq yea. I agree completely especially in this game.
 

Darksim

Member
Not worried about Zero anymore I think :p

This is interesting, from my experience playing Zero against several different Spiderman users, I found that he's pretty helpless against bullet hell keep away. Given that I had Jam Session and some form of horizontal projectile assist in addition to the hilarious amount of space Zero can fill with projectiles, I really never got touched by him. Even when he gets close I still don't get what he's supposed to do about half screen sword normals that are active for half a day.

Of course if the Zero users decide to be stupid and try to rush in I can see them getting hit very easily.
 
Dark Hole is a much better assist than people give it credit for (for the lockdown/protection and some combo extension stuff), but I wouldn't solely rely on it. It's screen coverage is severely limited and will do essentially nothing against many characters who can simply choose to play in the air and never land on it. It also won't do a damn thing in any serious projectile war.

This is somewhat less of a problem if you have Vergil sitting on a ton of meter so that he can BS his way into pressure, but I recall you stating that you play him on point, so this isn't the case.

I don't know who your third is, but if you are going to have both characters on the same team I would put Disruptor/Missiles/Insert beam assist here/maybe even drones behind them so that both characters get an ideal/near ideal screen control assist in addition to the more utility-like assist that each character can provide for each other. I personally go with Disruptor. (I've actually played that team to shut everyone up when they thought they could play Dormammu after seeing EVO, though I have Vergil, or Dante for that matter, second instead of first).

---

Playing with only Dark Hole sort of reminds me of my half-baked Magneto team, Mag/Vergil/Ammy. Of course, Magneto doesn't need a full screen assist to get around, and in the event I kill someone with the Mag/Vergil dhc (which, by the way, is ridiculous) I now get to play Vergil with Disruptor in addition to Cold Star lockdown. Even with Cold Star by itself, it's one of the few assists that can function in place of an OTG assist while retaining it's acceptable control of the horizontal playing field. By that point I should have plenty of meter anyway, and once that crap starts with Cold Star it pretty much never ends.

Edit: wow, three posts since I started writing this post, guess everyone ran back here after the stream ended.
The full team is, in no particular order:
Vergil (Rapid Slash)
Dormammu (Dark Hole)
Morrigan (Dark Harmonizer)

Right now Vergil is almost always on point because I need to learn him, but the eventual goal is to use one of these team setups depending on what my opponent is using:
Morrigan/Dormammu/Vergil
Dormammu/Morrigan/Vergil
Vergil/Dormammu/Morrigan

Dark Harmonizer is my main assist. Dark Hole is just there to make Vergil a little safer when I think he needs to be. Vergil doesn't start with a lot of meter, but it builds very fast. I generally get to throw Spiral Swords out whenever I want. I was reeeeally close to getting three Dark Angels off in one match. Someday...
 
The mythical triple Dark Angel... I have only seen it done once in a live match.
Dark Angel lets me survive without having to learn Vergil's loops yet (though I looked them finally, at least - lol). I basically say "Um, I don't know how to do a real Vergil combo soooo...DARK ANGEL!" I never feel bad about burning the meter. Ever. Sometimes I do it even when an opponent would die from a Vergil->Dormammu DHC. After playing Phoenix on point in Vanilla, burning 4 bars to kill a character means nothing to me.
 

Darksim

Member
Dark Harmonizer ... Spiral Swords

All is good here. Flipping the order would also work really well, Rapid Slash will probably be covered well by the sousou, helping to keep people away. Infinite Devil Trigger is also very silly.

If you haven't done so already, go learn how to Dark Vergil. If he doesn't get snapped in he should be murdering teams with ease.
 
All is good here. Flipping the order would also work really well, Rapid Slash will probably be covered well by the sousou, helping to keep people away. Infinite Devil Trigger is also very silly.

If you haven't done so already, go learn how to Dark Vergil. If he doesn't get snapped in he should be murdering teams with ease.
I've experimented with endless Devil Trigger a bit. It's something I intend to use for certain matchups where Vergil having an air dash really makes a difference (it's awesome against Wesker). I only used XF3 Vergil once, because it was all I had left. I was terrible, haha. It's on my long "to do" list, though.

One thing I can't handle with my team, I think, is Hulk/X/Sentinel. Morrigan can kind of handle it, but if she gets bopped it's not pretty.
 
This is interesting, from my experience playing Zero against several different Spiderman users, I found that he's pretty helpless against bullet hell keep away. Given that I had Jam Session and some form of horizontal projectile assist in addition to the hilarious amount of space Zero can fill with projectiles, I really never got touched by him. Even when he gets close I still don't get what he's supposed to do about half screen sword normals that are active for half a day.

Of course if the Zero users decide to be stupid and try to rush in I can see them getting hit very easily.

All Spider-Man can truly attempt to do on point against Zero is try to pin him with web balls and assists so he can block and eat a mixup, which is easier said than done.

On his own Spider-Man ain't doing too much against a stocked Zero. But it's more Hawkeye harrassing Zero into mistakes, I play him on point against a Zero. If I get two bars, once Zero tries to close the gap via the air, I should be able to react and get a UWT kill combo since his air movement is fairly floaty. If I get in trouble (ie start blocking some swords), I can bail out with an invincible cross counter Spider Sting, at the very least resetting momentum and forcing Zero to switch gears fairly fast, which is easier said than done. Can kill off the CC if I get my links down, it's 4 or so consecutive finicky ones, but it's doable. If I'm doing my job he shouldn't be able to travel by ground, either.



It's as good as a Zero matchup's gonna get as far as I'm concerned :lol Anyone who can somewhat zone Zero back while he's goofing around at SJ range seems to give him a bit of trouble.
 
Zero vs. Spider-man seems like it would be a lot like Zero vs. Firebrand. You both superjump around and try not to get hit. If you hit Zero, you get a little damage. If Zero hits you, you lost your team. If either of you has an anti-air assist, you win!
 

Dahbomb

Member
Dark Angel lets me survive without having to learn Vergil's loops yet (though I looked them finally, at least - lol). I basically say "Um, I don't know how to do a real Vergil combo soooo...DARK ANGEL!" I never feel bad about burning the meter. Ever. Sometimes I do it even when an opponent would die from a Vergil->Dormammu DHC. After playing Phoenix on point in Vanilla, burning 4 bars to kill a character means nothing to me.
If you have the meter with Vergil... Dark Angel is a must. Optimized combos need not apply when it comes to Dark Angel. It's the goal of every Vergil player to land as many Dark Angels as possible.
 
If you have the meter with Vergil... Dark Angel is a must. Optimized combos need not apply when it comes to Dark Angel. It's the goal of every Vergil player to land as many Dark Angels as possible.
The only problem with Dark Angel is that it feels so satisfying I feel like the fight is over. It's a victory of its own. Oh, another character coming in? I guess we can play for fun, since I just won. On the other hand, I groan every time I use Darkness Illusion. Ugh, the damage on that is ass.
 

Solune

Member
I think it's only vulnerable for 1 frame at the end, though. It's not a great teleport, but it has uses...the best one being a way to cancel into his level 3 for lolz.
I always always always go for this as anchor Akuma and I don't give a fuck :lol
I also still wish that all Dante players would have their thumbs broken.

EDIT: And dick cancer for all Vergils too.

I'd... I'd like to keep my prostate thanks

---

@Azure - Doing a few combos you requested now =3.
 
Why you hating on Dante? He has to work for his shit. It's not like he can just herp derp his way to damage.

Been playing Nova/Spencer just as an alt team for fun. No wonder Infrit played this shit. I thought the combos were hard from watching but god damn Spencer combos are cake.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I am ok with this design. About what I expected it to be given the tease in the previous trailer.

I would have to wager a guess and say they didn't go radical with Vergil after the backlash to Dante. In fact even from most fans of the original series... that's a very conservative Vergil design. I dig it a lot. OG Vergil is OG Vergil but DmC Vergil is solid.

My body is ready for some Vergil game play.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Vergil's Helm Breaker is 10 frames faster than Dante's Helm Splitter. It's a pretty big difference. I already typed this up for a bunch of people on srk, but if you chain into S upon landing, or even better, cancel into Rising Sun, it makes it essentially impossible to punish it by chicken blocking, and gives you a combo in the event that it hits or either gives you a block string or is reasonably safe on block (Rising Sun > Trick Down is -3 IIRC).

Helm Breaker doesn't have the gigantic hitbox behind it that Helm Splitter does however, other than that I think they are the same in terms of hitboxes, Dante's could be a bit bigger but I don't really think so.

Helm Splitter isn't just bold cancelable upon landing, there is actually a 2 frame window to dash cancel upon touching the ground. The timing is still super finicky though. Being dash cancelable also makes it hyper cancelable as well (which is actually how I originally figured out the dash canceling. I also discovered it being bold cancelable, let me brag please).

For say, Dante with Disruptor, the Stinger > assist call can be timed so that it combos on hit, crosses up on block, and gives you time for an air dash crossup if they pushblock it to avoid the crossup. Vergil can't really throw out stinger without covering himself with an assist or spending meter to cancel it, or he brings a really serious risk upon himself.

Going on about meter, you can Dante can Stinger > DT or Stinger > Reverb Shock > DT the 4th hit and get a full combo from a standing opponent. Unlike Vergil with his swords you won't get to build the meter back though.

Thanks for the clarification! I forgot about Dante's dash cancelable Helm Breaker. I always forget. Dante's Helm Breaker only has a hitbox behind it during the intial swing though.

I never play Magneto, so I didn't realize that Stinger would actually combo into E.M. Disruptor on hit. I thought it was just a dirty mix-up.

On Vergil's Stinger, can't he cancel that into Rising Sun as well?

Good info about canceling Stinger into DT for Dante. I don't know why that example slipped my mind.
 
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