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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT2| New Age of Zeroes

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A

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
enzo_gt said:
Thanks, this list is helpful. I already try to freestyle a lot of this stuff, but because of timing and whatnot I don't really plan whether something will cross up or not.
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It also depends on what you kill with. Ending with Supernova doesn't give you a whole lot of time to set up anything complicated. If you kill with a normal or something you get a lot of time to do whatever.
GuardianE said:
I wonder if I played you. Don't you use team armor? My Morrigan is admittedly mediocre, but I've been using her for a long time.
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No sorry I haven't used that team in a long time.
 
M

mr. puppy

Banned
Well back from being banned after trolling the hobbit hate train, was reading viscants posts over the last couple of days and thought this was interesting in relation to Chris G and TACs.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.ph...xbox-umvc3-major.162017/page-242#post-7446718

Think about it in a math sense. TAC is nothing more than a reset, except in this case the reset runs statistically at no worse than 66%. So the bare minimum for optimized TAC is .666 * (entire remaining life * your odds of completing combo) with the side benefit of extremely large meter gain. With more advanced combos involving quick jaguar dashes on the ground you can extend hitstun to a point that the TAC/fake-TAC reset actually has serious teeth.

In order for ground based resets to be better they need to come up with a higher net value than the above. It's not a "this must run at higher than 66%/75%" situation it's more like "this must run at a high enough value to make the math balance out" which is actually well above 75%.

Here's the kicker. Wesker starts a lot of offense on top tier characters off of air throw or Mustang Kick. What that means is the value of the TAC reset goes waaaaay up because due to scaling the remainder value goes up and you can take it all AND gain meter, a double positive outcome. There's a threshold to making the TAC the only choice and it comes once you hit a high degree of reliability with whatever infinite you have in all positions. It's only a matter of time until people hit that. Some people like ShadyK are there, have been there and are way beyond that value. Given that we're 2 months into the infinite era, everyone should be there already but people are lazy.

For the record this is why I really dislike TAC in general and especially TAC infinites. If you ever sit down with an excel spreadsheet and do the math on common outcomes with low damage characters, there's basically no reason not to do it every single time without fail. Chris G realized this before anyone else and other people are only now starting to catch on.
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So he's saying that a TAC is better off than a reset, and it makes a lot of sense on Chris G's team. For what its worth, Chris has an absolutely awesome way of covering TAC fails much better than reset fails:

If a reset fails from Morrigan->Doom, Morrigan gets knocked to the other side of the screen, which is where she wants to be anyway, and when she rolls out of the knockdown Chris G immediately call Akuma to clear up more space for Morrigan and reset the match. I've picked through a lot of why Akuma is on that team, and it really makes sense in instances like that or at the start of the round with how good Tatsu clears things.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
TACs especially post infinite era have been a significantly better option than actual resets in terms of risk vs reward. Which is the #1 reason why I hate them so much to begin with. They marginalize the importance of having actual resets.

FChamp is ahead of the curve because he has resets revolving around TACs and his actual resets are basically just TACs.

Oh and welcome back.
 
A

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
TACs are stupid even if they didn't have the infinites and stupidly long combos attached to them. I've been SAIYAN this for a long time.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Welcome back.

TAC success is actually above 66%, because your opponent needs to guard against not just up/down/left-right TACs, but air throw resets, which utilizes a different button. You largely have to mash to to avoid TACs reliable, so the decision making process have another level of depth that makes things even more difficult for your opponent.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
The TAC tech I like is stuff like desk's figuring out time-out combos from 50+ marvel seconds.

I was so sure that TAC infinites + X-23 was the way to level a team in the lowest number of hits reliably, but if you can get a time-out combo that works at 90+ marvel seconds, then we can start talking.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I thought stalling was usually grounds for banning something. I am pretty sure having a combo that exceeds the length of 50 Marvel seconds can be deemed as bannable.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
I thought stalling was usually grounds for banning something. I am pretty sure having a combo that exceeds the length of 50 Marvel seconds can be deemed as bannable.
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You can run away for 50 seconds and it's fine. I don't see why this is anything different. It's not like it's easy to do, either. You have to be perfect for a long time. You would really need to ban all infinites to defeat this.

Edit: Heck, look at Storm. Her infinite takes forever to kill someone. Is that time stalling, or just doing an infinite? What if someone discovers that a character's only infinite is a bunch of j.L's. Banned?!
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Well when you are running away the other player is still playing the game or trying to catch you. He is still "in" the game. When you perform a combo of that length just to stall the time, the other player has no input in the match and basically has to hope for you to mess up. If someone figures out like a combo that allows you to combo for 90 seconds without killing the character well that's essentially start of the round hit into game victory.

This is pure theory of course as I am not even aware such a thing even exists or is even practical.
 
K

Killa Sasa

Member
If it gets really bad and people get consistent at it (which I don't ever see happening, basic stuff drops on a regular basis), then TAC infinites altogether will just be banned imo.

I don't see it getting super terrible while this game is relevant. That timeout stuff is pretty funny but yeah, would suck if it ever DID catch on.

In other news, Deadpool is super fun. His amount of talking is looping around from annoying to funny because it's so dumb. Dat jab laugh.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Killa Sasa said:
If it gets really bad and people get consistent at it (which I don't ever see happening, basic stuff drops on a regular basis), then TAC infinites altogether will just be banned imo.

I don't see it getting super terrible while this game is relevant. That timeout stuff is pretty funny but yeah, would suck if it ever DID catch on.

In other news, Deadpool is super fun. His amount of talking is looping around from annoying to funny because it's so dumb. Dat jab laugh.
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I love Deadpool, but my wife hates him. She's just so annoyed by all of his talking...I especially love it when he shouts "KATANARAMA!" So goofy. I'd have Deadpool on my team if he had any use at all for excess meter.
 
F

FuLLBLeeD

Neo Member
Karsticles said:
In a couple years we'll have another game. Count on it.
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When I was at EVO this year I heard many people say that Capcom would state they don't plan on doing any updates, but are actually planning on removing TAC infinites and nerfing Zero and Vergil. It was from all Norcal players if that means anything. Also this was the day before I attended the UMvC3 panel and heard Nitsuma say that no updates were planned.

Honestly I'd rather they just take TACs out, such a terrible system.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
FuLLBLeeD said:
When I was at EVO this year I heard many people say that Capcom would state they don't plan on doing any updates, but are actually planning on removing TAC infinites and nerfing Zero and Vergil. It was from all Norcal players if that means anything. Also this was the day before I attended the UMvC3 panel and heard Nitsuma say that no updates were planned.

Honestly I'd rather they just take TACs out, such a terrible system.
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Niitsuma initially said he'd look into TACs, which is what made people think it might get fixed. Then he said otherwise. The Zero nerf rumor comes from F. Champ, and I imagine people just tacked Vergil on the claim as well.

This game made Capcom good money. Capcom likes money, so we'll get more. Even Svensson said we won't have to wait 10 years for another game. With Marvel being so huge, I think that within 3-4 years is our max wait time.

There's also the whole "What is Niitsuma working on?" question. He said JoJo's, but there's no way his main project for the last year has been an HD port. That's the kind of thing he would handle as a side management project. I'm not saying he's working on MvC4, but I'm saying we have loose ends.
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Member
Karsticles said:
Niitsuma initially said he'd look into TACs, which is what made people think it might get fixed. Then he said otherwise. The Zero nerf rumor comes from F. Champ, and I imagine people just tacked Vergil on the claim as well.

This game made Capcom good money. Capcom likes money, so we'll get more. Even Svensson said we won't have to wait 10 years for another game. With Marvel being so huge, I think that within 3-4 years is our max wait time.

There's also the whole "What is Niitsuma working on?" question. He said JoJo's, but there's no way his main project for the last year has been an HD port. That's the kind of thing he would handle as a side management project. I'm not saying he's working on MvC4, but I'm saying we have loose ends.
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/Truth.

Pretty much how I see things. I honestly think that if they do a full on MVC4 that a lot of the roster will disappear and be replaced rather than added onto whats there. Between MVC2 and UMVC3 we saw a lot of different fighting game developers begin talking about how after awhile adding more characters doesn't really improve a fighter. NRS, Namco, Sakurai and it really rings true to me that after awhile you just end up with a cast of dudes who can do certain things, but some will always "do it better". Thats why adding more gets harder after a certain number and I think about what we got in UMVC3 and MVC2 is about the limit of how many you can have before you start systematically making various cast irrelevant or redundant.

To keep it exciting I think it'd even be in their best interest to do what they did with 3 and announce "new game new cast". Some return and some dont. I know we all want them all to stay, but gameplay and marketing wise I think MVC4 should go the route of making a new roster more reflective of both companies because it generates more excitement over it being " a whole new ballgame" and because it avoids the redundancy problems I mentioned earlier. It'll probably be another year or several before we see this franchise again and by that time who knows what the faces of these companies will be structuring themselves for on the market.

I'm not gonna do another "who do you cut who do you keep/rework list" because it just ends up all crapped up by everyone pulling the entitled player thing and saying "keep them all I will take no less." The last time I brought it up it got only a few posts before the topic itself was derailed by this to the point of no real talk about who is most likely on the chopping block or replaceable took place. To be honest I think Iron Fist could be cut if he wasn't such a major force in current story arcs. Gameplay-wise all he has is rekka and self buff capabilities. He's pure pressure/footsy work and his lack of options make him too dull and difficult for most to choose. That indifference makes him a prime candidate to replace in my eyes from a design standpoint. Im trying to look at things from a business marketing and gameplay sense on this issue here and I don't really demand anyone else to do so or feel the same as I do about it. Just stating that I think when MVC4 does come around it should replace cast instead of trying to increase the total roster size above around what it has now.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I don't think I have heard Vergil in the patch talk but Morrigan and Zero were definitely brought up.

I don't know how much weight I would put into the rumors but they are my only hope of winning the bet...

I will always BELIEVE!!!!
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Member
Dahbomb said:
I don't think I have heard Vergil in the patch talk but Morrigan and Zero were definitely brought up.

I don't know how much weight I would put into the rumors but they are my only hope of winning the bet...

I will always BELIEVE!!!!
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Bet? Forgive me, but I've spend most of the last 8 months holed up working through the last of my degree or watching stuff on Injustice since I'm a big DC fan.

What bet are you talking about?
 
K

Killa Sasa

Member
shaowebb said:
/Truth.

/more good stuff
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Truth be told, only reason I wouldn't want them to replace characters is because I know the prettiest girl in the game would probably be on the chopping block T_T. Rightfully so, and I agree with everything said in your post, but she's the most fun to me outside of many characters playing similar roles with different twists. Her dirtbag XTREME father wishes he could be 1/10th as fun as her. Wolverine is the epitome of boo-urns for me >:| Would also suck to lose someone like Taskmaster, who's not necessarily a "core" Marvel character but is as good an addition as Dormammu.

At least the rest of my team would be fine... an Avenger and the company mascot would have nothing to worry about. Hawkeye is a fringe choice but he's pretty unique and I think they'd let him stay.

I don't think there is another game without replacing some characters, and I really love the cast of this one.

Capcom side can do whatever they want, those guys are le suxx.
 
S

SolarKnight

Member
shaowebb said:
Bet? Forgive me, but I've spend most of the last 8 months holed up working through the last of my degree or watching stuff on Injustice since I'm a big DC fan.

What bet are you talking about?
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Avatar bet with Sephi IIRC.

If there is no announcement of a Marvel patch by EVO next year he has to wear a DmC Dante avatar.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
shaowebb said:
Bet? Forgive me, but I've spend most of the last 8 months holed up working through the last of my degree or watching stuff on Injustice since I'm a big DC fan.

What bet are you talking about?
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Someone post the avatar!

Killa Sasa said:
Truth be told, only reason I wouldn't want them to replace characters is because I know the prettiest girl in the game would probably be on the chopping block T_T. Rightfully so, and I agree with everything said in your post, but she's the most fun to me outside of many characters playing similar roles with different twists. Her dirtbag XTREME father wishes he could be 1/10th as fun as her. Wolverine is the epitome of boo-urns for me >:| Would also suck to lose someone like Taskmaster, who's not necessarily a "core" Marvel character but is as good an addition as Dormammu.
Click to expand...
*snirk*
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Member
Killa Sasa said:
Truth be told, only reason I wouldn't want them to replace characters is because I know the prettiest girl in the game would probably be on the chopping block T_T. Rightfully so, and I agree with everything said in your post, but she's the most fun to me outside of many characters playing similar roles with different twists. Her dirtbag XTREME father wishes he could be 1/10th as fun as her. Wolverine is the epitome of boo-urns for me >:| Would also suck to lose someone like Taskmaster, who's not necessarily a "core" Marvel character but is as good an addition as Dormammu.

At least the rest of my team would be fine... an Avenger and the company mascot would have nothing to worry about. Hawkeye is a fringe choice but he's pretty unique and I think they'd let him stay.

I don't think there is another game without replacing some characters, and I really love the cast of this one.

Capcom side can do whatever they want, those guys are le suxx.
Click to expand...

Taskmaster is pretty much on the rise with Marvel, but if they did drop him I think they'd do it to experiment with another kind of solid zoner with good melee. Maybe Bullseye or someone with powers that are pretty varied or that have strong zoning/melee options they could go nuts with like Ms. Marvel, Black Panther or Hope or something. Blade would probably fit better due to guns/ sword normals being closest to Taskmaster's options. Not really making new roster wish lists here or even trying to promote these people at all ...just trying to think from a design aspect really.

I definitely feel cuts and replacements would be a good business choice to sweep an MVC4 design though. It generates a lot of attention and completely changes the landscape and meta of a sequel without old staples to fallback on. I could see them dumping some cast that are redundant to simply replace them with some completely different style of character who they want to include to try new ideas on. I even encourage it really. Helps you distinguish the game from the old one by showing up with completely new tools in the game for some cast that weren't similar to some other cut character's tricks.
 
A

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
jXss9.jpg


It's an icon on my desktop, just so I don't forget.
 
R

racketpunch

Member
Tip: If you want to find out who the new characters are for mvc4, marvel side, just search for up and coming marvel movies.

I highly doubt we will see this game any time soon though. This game is made by two parties, Capcom and Marvel, with the latter having a huge say.
 
A

Azure J

Member
Irony of the highest order is practicing Rapid Seismos and getting 3 max on your good side (P1 side) then fucking around without a thought and doing them on your bad side (P2 side) and getting 5 in a row before you psyche yourself out.
 
shaowebb

shaowebb

Member
AzureJericho said:
Irony of the highest order is practicing Rapid Seismos and getting 3 max on your good side (P1 side) then fucking around without a thought and doing them on your bad side (P2 side) and getting 5 in a row before you psyche yourself out.
Click to expand...

On a sidenote its looking like Bottom tier Solomon Grundy on the DC side of fighting games is getting a pretty fast seismo stomp of his own. Guy is quoted as the slowest character in any fighter ever in his current build so I'm hoping the range on this speedy thing is good. We know its got an EX-version and he has chain grapples off of his OTG grab. Can't wait for this game...especially since they're talking hard about dumping the clash system.

What can I say? I'm a DC fan over a marvel fan. If The Ray makes it in my Iron Fist hype will PALE in comparison to that unknown character whose concept I have followed for years. Iron Fist was in my first Marvel comic with Spidey. The Ray was in my first comic period. DC Justice League America during the Destiny's Hand arc. Literally the issue with Hawkman on the cover with Sinestro's ring because he cut the guy's arms off.


♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Comic book fighting games ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
 
Z

Zissou

Member
For me, certain things are easier randomly on one side or the other. Usually P1 side is easier, but for some reason SOU SOU SOU spam is much more consistent on the P2 side, which doesn't even make sense since both require essentially the same qcf and resverse qcf motions, just in a different order.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Zissou said:
For me, certain things are easier randomly on one side or the other. Usually P1 side is easier, but for some reason SOU SOU SOU spam is much more consistent on the P2 side, which doesn't even make sense since both require essentially the same qcf and resverse qcf motions, just in a different order.
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Which is why it blows my mind that I can't do it on P2 side. I just need to sit down and practice sometime.

What really messes me up is using Skrull and Dormammu on the same team while on P2 side. Their combo finishers have the same screen relation placement but the inputs are reversed. -_- The first time I tried to dp.L as Dormammu against a full screen opponent was the day I dropped Skrull.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
Dahbomb said:
Well when you are running away the other player is still playing the game or trying to catch you. He is still "in" the game. When you perform a combo of that length just to stall the time, the other player has no input in the match and basically has to hope for you to mess up. If someone figures out like a combo that allows you to combo for 90 seconds without killing the character well that's essentially start of the round hit into game victory.

This is pure theory of course as I am not even aware such a thing even exists or is even practical.
Click to expand...

Well one hit and a reset. Technically more hits than the snapback loop, but more reliable.
 
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