SolarKnight
Member
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Vanilla Phoenix was fair?
Come on now Karst.
Also the percentage of people using Phoenix vs the percentage of people using characters like Wolverine was very low for Phoenix players. Even then the top players who used Phoenix were placing high. Phoenix also didn't come to her top tier status until right before EVO so that's why there weren't many Phoenix in top 8. That's like saying Vergil is fair because there was only 1 Vergil player at EVO. Ultimate was out longer than Vanilla was before its first EVO. Plus the last significant tournament of Vanilla Marvel was Phoenix vs Phoenix GF with Flocker and Viscant.
Vanilla basically had one team configuration that ruled everything. God tier point character (like Dante) / Invincible assist (Tron/Haggar) / Phoenix. You couldn't zone in the game because Phoenix players would build their 5 bars before you could amount any real chip damage against them. Pure rushdown teams were slowly being weeded out because of invincible Lariats, Gustaffs, Hammer and FADC EX Seismo. Basically over time everyone would be using Dante/Haggar/Phoenix and Zero/Tron/Phoenix... I mean why the hell would you use anything else?
It's true that Capcom went a bit overboard with the changes to Phoenix... but now she is what I feel a "fair" character in the game. Mind you that even in general Phoenix is cheap but she is not top tier cheap anymore because work is required. The Salty balls were too much, it was god damn silly actually.
SolarKnight
Member
Uh, are you still here? I don't see you online on XBL.
Karsticles
Member
The TK Shot H was something I already said was a bit silly.
I think anti-Phoenix technology was being developed right as she was peaking. F. Champ isn't even willing to use her against other top players most of the time.
These are the things that I think made Vanilla Phoenix too much:
TK Shot H (air)
Ease of meter gain.
XF3 damage and speed boost.
Two of those are system-wide changes that were made. XF3 was too much for a lot of characters, and Phoenix was one of the most ridiculous benefactors. I think that with the two system-wide changes, Phoenix would be very fair.
There are a lot of reasons to not use Phoenix in Vanilla, but I know you know them. As someone who has played point Phoenix (and point Dark Phoenix) for a long time, I don't feel that Phoenix/Dark Phoenix is overpowered, and that certainly wasn't the case in Vanilla. The biggest problem was X-Factor values.
I've said all this before, but I'm wondering if you read those posts, because I think you likely agree that I'm reasonable here. My main point is that Phoenix herself was mostly fine in Vanilla, and all of her problems could be solved through system changes, and Phoenix being too strong in Vanilla was merely a symptom of these system problems. Thus, it's not Phoenix that's the problem.
Really, the TK Shot H problem is not fixed, since she can still play the same ultra-lame keepaway as she did before, but now she has to fly first (19 frames - big deal).
These are all the changes that happened to Phoenix:
-TK Shot leaves her prone until landing.
-TK Shot disappears if Phoenix takes damage.
-TK Trap disappears if Phoenix takes damage.
-Phoenix health dropped from 420,000 to 375,000.
-XF speed dropped by 15% at all levels (I think).
-XF damage stayed the same, it seems.
-Meter gain nerfed.
-Sideways TACs now steal meter.
-TAC glitches become available in Ultimate due to aerial X-Factor (bullshit, by the way).
It's all rather ridiculous. TK Shot H was the only non-system problem with Phoenix. A fix to that was all that was needed in terms of character changes.
Also, I take the teams you listed as a testament to how overpowered Dante, Zero, Haggar, and Tron were. Being able to earn 5 bars nigh-guaranteed with just your point character is a balance problem that has nothing to do with Phoenix.
That's like saying Vergil is fair but it's the system that makes him unfair. If meter wasn't so abundant or if XF values weren't so retarded, then he would be fair.
You can't look at a character in a vacuum like that. That's what Capcom does which results in broken characters being put out. You have to realize that some characters are very powerful under certain situations, assists and mechanics... those factors have to be considered when balancing.
Also there was no reason not to use Phoenix in Vanilla. I don't remember when FChamp decided not to use Phoenix.. or Viscant or Flocker. You would have to fill me in on these situations where using Phoenix in Vanilla was a problem.
All those changes were fair to Phoenix except for the health change and the TAC stuff. TAC has always been garbage. XF values are still too high... just because they tweaked them doesn't mean that Dark Phoenix has trouble eviscerating 3 characters.
You can't look at a character in a vacuum like that. That's what Capcom does which results in broken characters being put out. You have to realize that some characters are very powerful under certain situations, assists and mechanics... those factors have to be considered when balancing.
Also there was no reason not to use Phoenix in Vanilla. I don't remember when FChamp decided not to use Phoenix.. or Viscant or Flocker. You would have to fill me in on these situations where using Phoenix in Vanilla was a problem.
All those changes were fair to Phoenix except for the health change and the TAC stuff. TAC has always been garbage. XF values are still too high... just because they tweaked them doesn't mean that Dark Phoenix has trouble eviscerating 3 characters.
It's all part of the package. Again... it's like saying Vergil or Doom aren't top tier because Vergil solo point character is nothing and neither is Doom. Their exploit of the game's sytem as well as their support values (Vergil being a walking DHC glitch + godly with XF and Doom having Missiles and swag TAC combos) is what makes them OP. Phoenix is the same way, she is top tier in a team and deserved to get nerfed just like those other characters. They screwed the pooch when they buffed Zero and Viper of course.
Karsticles
Member
No, because you don't need to earn 5 bars to dominate with Vergil. You need 1.
I'm not. It's why I specifically applauded the nerfing of invincible moves and assists throughout the cast.
JWong and PR Balrog stomped most of the Phoenix players because their mix-ups were so good. Phoenix has always been a huge risk because of how easy it is to kill her through a snap-in. Hell, I posted a guaranteed way to chip Phoenix out with 3 bars via Dormammu just in the last page. People didn't explore most of the options available to deal with Phoenix until around Evo, and if the game kept going there would have been far more answers to her through snap-ins and chip-out setups.
Dark Phoenix is fundamentally changed as an anchor because of the speed tweak. There's only one Phoenix player that places well in tournaments now, and he also happens to be top 5 in the world. He doesn't even use her against people he respects.
Vergil doesn't exploit the system, he's just a big bag of bullshit from beginning to end. There is not a single system-wide change you can propose that would straighten out Vergil. Phoenix was primarily solved as a problem through system-wide changes because she was simply the worst symptom of a very big disease in the game. Vanilla X-Factor values and meter gain were just moronic, and Phoenix just happened to be the character that benefited from both of those the most. There is not a single system-wide value that makes Vergil what he is. He would still be just as BS without install hyper buffs stacking multiplicatively with X-Factor, because he has the most powerful 1-bar hyper in the game attached to him. Vergil needs a lot of Vergil-specific nerfs to balance him out. Phoenix needed one.
1 meter gets him in one once... then what? He needs assists to keep the pressure going or he needs XF. Doom vs Vergil with 1 meter... Doom wins the fight because he can certainly survive some chip from 1 SS. Vergil also doesn't have 2 lives at 5 bars.. meaning if you snap him in like Phoenix even at 5 bars he is going to die if he gets touched and his escape options are far less effective than Phoenix's.
Logistically speaking the non-Phoenix players had to thoroughly out play the Phoenix players in Vanilla to win a match. They first had to get the initial hit, perform snap back then perform another mix up into getting another hit... none of this guarantees a Phoenix dead and a lot of the time just results in you having one less meter to work with. That's at least twice they have to hit a Phoenix player for them to have a solid chance of winning the match. A Phoenix player doesn't even have to get the initial hits to have an insurmountable lead in the match. Of course this gets much harder when the Phoenix player is hiding behind an invincible assist and sword normal characters. Phoenix has enough escapes and salty balls to deal with incoming pressure and buy time to raw tag out. That's why her salty balls were nerfed to begin with. Justin and PRRog stomped Phoenix players because they played better.
If you remove X factor he becomes much more fair. X factor allows him to get a ton of meter due to high damage and then burn it on SS to clutch out the match. X Factor also allows him to go God mode with DT. After that you nerf SS like you nerfed Phoenix's TK shots and he pretty much becomes what Phoenix is now.
Vergil is an exploiter of mechanics just like Phoenix is. Vergil gets the edge over her because he can be played up the order and can support a team in more ways than just being a clutch anchor. Of course if Vergil was in Vanilla he would be in the holy trinity with Phoenix and Dante in S tier.
Yeah sure but there is no arguing that XF benefits some characters more than others like Vergil, Phoenix and Strider. You don't want those characters to be sitting on LVL3XF because it means that you are risking killing their first 2 characters versus having a bigger threat emerge later on.
DR2K
Banned
If you remove xfactor you do a lot more harm to weaker character than you would to the stronger ones.
If you remove XF, Phoenix, Amaterasu and Strider become significantly less potent especially Phoenix. Strider and Ammy at least have their assists to fall back on, Phoenix has nothing. Vergil also drops a lot without having XF for all its perks.
Of the lower tier characters the one who would be harmed the most would be Arthur and I guess PW (he would go down from 2nd worst to worst maybe). The rest would more or less stay where they are in terms of tiers. Some low tiers like Chris would go up because they don't have to worry about someone using XF to negate chip.
Zero would remain the best character in the game. Actually he would ask "What's X factor? That was in the game before?"
Karsticles
Member
1 bar to get in and have total screen control...what more could you want from 1 bar of meter?! Then he gets the free Round Trip, and he has total control of the flow of the match.
You don't have to outplay someone on incoming. It's a situation that is to the offensive player's advantage. The defending player is in a corner, without assists, and does not get to choose his/her entry point. The entire reason this game needs X-Factor is that you don't need to be consistently better than your opponent to win the incoming mix-up. You just need good, ambiguous setups.
Yeah, you have to hit the opposing player. That's why non-Phoenix teams get 2 assists and can burn meter, and Phoenix teams get 1 and can't.
Well, I would hope that the person who plays better wins. Seems like good evidence that she was balanced to me.
Total nonsense. Vergil is BS in XF3, but his maximum BS is second with meter and a good assist. Anchor Vergil is still reasonable because he has no defense against incoming mix-ups, so he has to earn the breathing room to go nuts.
Nope. Vergil is an exploiter of Vergil mechanics, not system mechanics, and that you're saying otherwise now conflicts with your huge list of suggested nerfs to Vergil. You know it's Vergil himself that's the problem.
Professor Beef
Banned
Wright wouldn't get worse without XF. He worries about it for the same reasons Chris does.
On the contrary, I would say Justin and co were better players than Viscant and Flocker but lost tournaments/EVO because they DIDN'T have Phoenix.
Who said you don't have to burn bar on a Phoenix team? It's well worth spending 1 bar with Phoenix to bail her out off an incoming mix up. Eventually Phoenix players would've gotten more liberal with their meter usage like FChamp has become now. Hell we already saw Tokido even burning early XF and meter with a Phoenix team to maintain momentum, it especially was effective because if you remove one or two characters that can actually touch Phoenix then you have the match in the bag... salty balls for the win.
But at 2nd spot he would also lose to incoming mix ups. If there was no XF then I would always play Vergil on point with 2 assists.
Yeah but my changelist assumed the system mechanics were in tact as they are. The changelist would be very different if someone said that I would have to assume that meter gain overall was nerfed and XF was removed. Then I would only nerf SS and remove the RT glitch.
Yeah whatever he would still remain low tier.
Karsticles
Member
Everyone was abusing their own stuff. I think it's ridiculous to even try and compare Vanilla Phoenix to invincible assists and invincible cross-ups and invincible get-off-me attacks and say which is more BS. Justin and PR Balrog had teams that worked for them and had serious weaknesses as well. PR Balrog largely lost because he played the matchup poorly, and everyone knew it when they watched the matches go down. To quote a few dozen people, "Why does he keep running into Double Lariat?" Justin lost to PR Balrog.
If that 1 bar doesn't hit you lose Phoenix...no one does Phoenix Rage on incoming with Phoenix.
Just like on anchor, but most people don't have good incoming mix-ups.
Wow.
FChamp, Viscant and Tokido all use Phoenix Rage on incoming when they see the opposite player commit to a mix up/move. Hell Viscant made a post about talking about how you can cripple their team if you get someone in a happy birthday with it. It's not a requirement to use the move but it's one of the many escapes she has and people underestimated killing Phoenix on entry.
To me Vanilla Phoenix was just as big of a problem as invincible assists. The salty balls pretty much killed the meta game by themselves thanks to their nutso combo breaker properties. There isn't anything Wesker, She Hulk or Wolverine can do against a Phoenix player camping on the top corner of the screen throwing salty balls.
To me Vanilla Phoenix was just as big of a problem as invincible assists. The salty balls pretty much killed the meta game by themselves thanks to their nutso combo breaker properties. There isn't anything Wesker, She Hulk or Wolverine can do against a Phoenix player camping on the top corner of the screen throwing salty balls.
Karsticles
Member
Viscant made that post a few months ago in the context of Ultimate. We're talking about Vanilla Phoenix. It only works in Ultimate because you can XFC Phoenix Rage to make it safe and if it was blocked, you are safe, and if it hit, you just go a kill. Show me a video of a player using this in top 8 of a high profile tournament. I've never seen it, and I doubt it ever happened.
Which is why I said TK Shot H is the one thing that actually needed to be changed regarding Phoenix. TK Shot almost never breaks combos. In the thousand or so matches I played with her on point, it often traded or maybe hit a smidge after I got hit, but it was never a combo breaker. The tracking on the move is just not good enough for that.
If the game had more decent anti-air assists, TK Shot H wouldn't even be a problem.
Deathwish. I remember the first time he did it, everyone was confused as hell because he does Phoenix Rage (XFC), raw tag Magneto, but he dropped the pick-up. Hahaha. A truly crazy strategy. Not something I would ever do - I strive for perfect control and consistency in my play.
Completely off-topic, but this makes me nerd rage:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/927750-playstation-3/64928023
I remember at EVO 2011 there was a guy with on point Pheonix who would sometimes instantly Pheonix Rage and XFC at the start of the match. He'd get a happy birthday team kill half the time. It reminded me of an StarCraft cheeser, with a strategy that could win you the game, but if it didn't work, you were at a huge disadvantage.
Ahh yeah- Deathwish, haha. It was funny how often it actually seemed to work (in the couple matches I saw him play.)
Vanilla Phoenix was busted. Vanilla had all kinds of problems. I think the game wouldn't have lasted much longer if Ultimate hadn't come out.
crimsonspider89
Banned
Vanilla Phoenix wasn't broken but vanilla mechanics made her broken. Meter build and XF3 strength. The nerfs to her have made it EXTREMELY easy to hate her out and make the Phoenix player work three times as hard just to kill. Not to mention the absurd amount of characters who can kill her on incoming that was introduced.
West, Rocket, Vergil, Hawkeye, Strange, Nova(yes Nova can go through the blast to kill her).
The nerfs to Phoenix were overzealous.
Yeah I said it.
West, Rocket, Vergil, Hawkeye, Strange, Nova(yes Nova can go through the blast to kill her).
The nerfs to Phoenix were overzealous.
Yeah I said it.
I don't see how people are separating vanilla Phoenix from vanilla system mechanics and ultimate Phoenix from Ultimate system mechanics. It's a package deal, and you have to look at the whole. Even if Phoenix hadn't been nerfed, I think she'd still relatively unplayed now. Japanese TAC anti-phoenix tech means even if you get the bars, you don't get to go dark 66% of the time. Vajra assist says fuck your salty balls. Fuck, I think ultimate morridoom would fight vanilla Phoenix just fine. And of course Vergil says fuck you to just about everyone.
Karsticles
Member
Because some problems disappear with changes to the mechanics.
Think of it this way. Right now we have TAC infinites. We have TAC infinites for a huge variety of reasons, one of which is some characters having certain kinds of moves and certain kinds of mobility. You could change all of that, or you could make a change to TACs. One of these changes is character-specific, the other is system-specific. Both affect the character, of course, but one of them also affects a lot of other characters. Isn't it better to change TACs rather than, say, nerf Doom's air mobility options? Doom's TACs (just using him as an example) are only as ridiculous as they are because of the system he's within.
There is no system change you can make that wouldn't make Spiral Swords BS, on the other hand (or at least no reasonable one). Spiral Swords can only be addressed by specifically changing Spiral Swords. It's not a symptom of a larger problem like Vanilla X-Factor was, it's in its own little world of BS.
And I agree that there are many more counters to Vanilla Phoenix now than there were before, but the fact remains that TK Shot H was really, really dumb in its Vanilla form. I grinded through entire teams by doing nothing but superjumping into corners and using TK Shot H while calling Dark Harmonizer until I had 5 bars. A lot of characters simply had no answer to it at all.
That's pretty much what I was saying, TK Shot is like Spiral Swords they both needed to be nerfed. Outside of those tools the 2 characters are just exploiters of the system amd changing the system would change them.
Karst what happenend to that guy who made the rumor on Gamefaqs?
Karst what happenend to that guy who made the rumor on Gamefaqs?
Karsticles
Member
I've said that about TK Shot H (the H is important - L and M are fine) since I first started talking about this 2 pages ago, before you even jumped in. No way is Vergil a system problem outside of that, though. Every change needed for Vergil, out side of the install hyper speed boost stacking multiplicatively with X-Factor, is a Vergil-specific change.
Edit: However, the changes they made to TK Shot H were not the right ones. They did the equivalent of removing all of The Hammer's invincibility. Phoenix went from a ridiculous good aerial keepaway game to almost no aerial keepaway game. A character with her health can't afford to approach solo or throw stuff on the ground.
Discovered to be a fraud, the Kensk impersonator on Capcom-Unity from pre-Vanilla days. It's funny how otherwise respectable people will do something like that in hiding.
Edit: It was in the rumor thread Intelliheath made if you're curious about the evidence against him.
I actually completely believe Sven and Niitsuma when they say nothing is going on. They've never told a straight-up lie before about this stuff. No reason to resort to Lupinko.
eh i always though the worst part of vanilla wasn't the phoenix gimmicks, it was the invincible assists. and it was even more stupid that they were tied to huge health characters, which was perfect for gaining meter for dark phoenix.
and then phoenix herself, once you're at 5 bars, gives you a free combo breaker that nobody else in the game had (there was no missiles, don't forget) and was really strong in a game full of far easier TODs than ultimate
and then phoenix herself, once you're at 5 bars, gives you a free combo breaker that nobody else in the game had (there was no missiles, don't forget) and was really strong in a game full of far easier TODs than ultimate
crimsonspider89
Banned
Actually, the TAC infinites occur due to the time on the ground that registers for the TAC hitstun to disappear. So small you can do a tight jump to continue the combo.
That would be an example of a system change that fixes a lot of things. Another is to allow the XFC/flight cancel glitch to reset the TAC counter as well.
Vanilla Dante was a character that required specific changes for his brokenness. I mean, eventually he would of became tons better than Phoenix and oppressed 99% of the cast.
Vergil is another that is going to get those kinds of changes. IF we get another update.
That would be an example of a system change that fixes a lot of things. Another is to allow the XFC/flight cancel glitch to reset the TAC counter as well.
Vanilla Dante was a character that required specific changes for his brokenness. I mean, eventually he would of became tons better than Phoenix and oppressed 99% of the cast.
Vergil is another that is going to get those kinds of changes. IF we get another update.
Professor Beef
Banned
Gamefaqs guy was a fraud, eh? Boy am I shocked.
Karsticles
Member
Hidden Missiles were in Vanilla. They were even better than they are in Ultimate. They got nerfed between games (-2 missiles).
TAC infinites occur for two reasons. One, what you listed. Two, HSD not occurring on TAC combos. You could get rid of either one and fix TAC infinites, and I'd be in favor of both.
Agreed on the XFC-TAC glitch. So annoying and stupid, it's part of why I'm inclined to tag Phoenix in once I get 5 bars - people aren't going to blow XF1 on that glitch when I have XF3 Dormammu waiting when they do.
I found Wolverine manageable with Dormammu + Hidden Missiles. As long as I could DHC him in safely or use an invincible assist, I don't think the matchup is terribly different from its Ultimate form because Flame Carpet was good at covering Dormammu from the tatsu assist and helped prevent Wolverine positioning himself well for Berserker Slash (plus HM is hitting him if he tries to go behind Dormammu).
crimsonspider89
Banned
Thing was HM could do jack shit against the I am a badass here me growl duo. Everyone should know who this was. Not to mention vanilla EMD.
EMD, out of nowhere you get hit and then get comboed.
EMD, out of nowhere you get hit and then get comboed.
"God's Beard!"
Member
All this Phoenix talk reminds me that I'm still waiting for FChamp to recognize that I invented Magneto/Doom/Phoenix back before EVO in vanilla.
I stole the Magneto/Doom pairing from Alioune's Magneto/Doom/Dorm team
Karsticles
Member
She wasn't too different. I'm not confident that she would be on the rampage she is right now, but she'd definitely be up there if someone had figured it all out earlier.
Ultimate Morrigan changes:
-Soul Drain added.
-Now has time to OTG off of all throws (before, none).
-Soul Fist damage increased from 70,000 to 85,000.
-Soul Fist hitstun increased (but unlike in Vanilla, is not affected by HSD).
-Flight duration from 106 to 111 frames.
-Flight startup from 15 to 11 frames.
-Finishing Shower can be mashed for additional damage.
-Finishing Shower and Darkness Illusion now subject to three special moves per jump limit.
-j.H and j.S hitboxes increased slightly.
So, a lot of nice small things, but nothing that made her into the new character most people assume she is. As a Vanilla Morrigan player, I don't find her largely different to play in Ultimate. I do all the same stuff I did before, but it's just slightly more effective now.
thats no what i meant. i meant that they were useless in that game due to the way it was played.
huh....i wonder if point strider could do some nasty opening gambits with this stuff
Karsticles
Member
I strongly disagree. I quit Hidden Missiles during Vanilla for a reason, and it wasn't because I was having trouble winning.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Good.
He tried to play Zero like a Spencer or a Wolverine anyways.
Fuck that Zero was awful.
He tried to play Zero like a Spencer or a Wolverine anyways.
Fuck that Zero was awful.
Master Milk
Member
Six missiles in Vanilla.
Karsticles
Member
JWong can do whatever. He's the least interesting player among the top 5 to me.
Dormammu/Hidden Missiles is solid against Vanilla Phoenix. Dormammu has always been a formidable matchup for her. It works fine against Wolverine, too, since he can't Berserker Slash into Hidden Missiles.
I checked both guides, and it says 6 in Vanilla. My mistake.
Dormammu/Hidden Missiles is solid against Vanilla Phoenix. Dormammu has always been a formidable matchup for her. It works fine against Wolverine, too, since he can't Berserker Slash into Hidden Missiles.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Spencer Vergil Doom is the team I use to do my max meterless Spencer combos that I always posted in here. If Justin learns the combos, he can kill 80% of the cast off the incoming mixup for no meter.
More than solid if you consiider that there's no air x-factor.
More than solid if you consiider that there's no air x-factor.
biosnake20
Member
I hope Marlin actually sticks with this team for awhile. (80k/get back/beam assist)
I just wanna see pick up him Dante and go back to using Magnus
"God's Beard!"
Member
Why? That was probably the worst I've ever seen Marlin play, and that team makes no sense. It's obvious he just wanted to show off Dante combos.
omg the first few rounds of the Xray vs. Kbeast set are amazing btw. Especially Kbeast avoiding missiles with viper: http://www.twitch.tv/marvelouscustoms/b/347831542