kevo_huevo
Member
i don't think anyone will get offended, since you're pretty honest in your posts and you're quite knowledgeable about the game and cast.
personally, i wouldn't mind what your thoughts are about my play.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
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i don't think anyone will get offended, since you're pretty honest in your posts and you're quite knowledgeable about the game and cast.
personally, i wouldn't mind what your thoughts are about my play.
Karsticles
Member
You and I need to play again when the connection is good. When we played a while ago, I thought the connection was good, but your play was nothing special. Now it seems like your play is much better, but the connection is not as good for some reason.
Assuming the PSN tournament goes well, Beef is thinking about organizing ranbats for us. Assuming a round robin style of play (no clue how he plans to do it), everyone would get a really good idea of where they stand, and we could form player tiers off of results instead of my opinions.
Haha, why change it from offensive to disgusting? Needed a new level of offense? ;-)
While everyone was complaining about Zero getting buffs in Ultimate, I was complaining about Spencer getting buffs. I was sure he would get a nerf. -_- We need more good players using Spencer.
That damage output is disgusting. 80k really, really needs to be patched : /
"God's Beard!"
Member
But they're both manifest-and-breathe type moves, why not just make them the same and let your screen-position mechanic deal with the rest?
I think the whole AP thing is too confusing, you have a bunch of random costs that aren't really clear in gameplay terms. It really needs to be simplified and more visual. 11/90 AP is just not good design for a fighting game.
I think it makes sense to organize by AP, but not the way you're doing it. If you shift the elements around you also need to rethink how you're dealing with the individual moves. Right now it's "well this move is kind of similar in cost so it goes here", while the moves themselves have all kind of stuff going on. It's just not intuitive by any sense of the word.
Absolutely.
You have an attack that's a lightning bolt, an attack that's a series of lightning bolts moving in one direction, and tracking lightning bolts. But they all have different hit properties and completely different inputs. This is another situation where it's just not intuitive. Just give her a lightning bolt that you can place and do successively, and it solves multiple problems at the same time. Hell, you could even have it upgrade for every successive attack but the biggest problem I have with your moveset is you're putting the burden of understanding what Nina's doing to outside research on the player's part for the sake of "faithfulness". There's just too much going on for no real reason.
Just figure out what you really want lightning to mean to the player, then wrap it together in a way that makes sense.
If Typhoon is 4H and unlocks at higher AP that'd be ideal I guess. But why does it need to be so strong? You're using it to build Will, so having it cost AP is already wasting some of your effort. It's like card disadvantage in Magic. You already have so many options for moving people and defending, why does this have to be another metered option? Why not make it something like a Maya shield since it's already a move focused on Nina?
And Simoon is literally Dark Matter, so what's the deal? All those high-recovery spells are things that Nina needs to earn in other terms to begin with. On your version of Will it takes 5 seconds of turtling to build enough AP just to use one move that doesn't even cause enough hitstun to combo after. Dormammu gets Volcano after 105 frames.
That's the other reason I don't like your AP system. The whole risk/reward ratio for using AP with different moves is completely nuts. Bolt X and Missile are so insane compared to the how small the cost difference is that everybody that plays her is going to stick her second so she builds 10 AP then when their point character dies they'll get just use one Missiles then follow it up with Bolt X to gain space to bide time and call an assist. Hell, she feasibly gets almost 10 AP back just from using Bolt X properly. The incentives for using anything other than the 10+AP spells(especially fireblast) are so low compared to what you get off of them. Especially since she starts with 50. And there's no reason to think she can't combo into drain 2/3+ times a combo since we don't know what her normals are or what kind of weird setups she gets.
thor infinites: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FebWt_JClKY
gotta love that thor/strange/ammy team
gotta love that thor/strange/ammy team
Thanks kioshen. I figured I should learn something better than ABC OTG with him.
Haha thanks, I really want X or Sigma, those are 2 of my most wanted characters for MvC. I'd like X1 Sigma or X4 Sigma, a Scythe or a Saber like Zero is fine with me
CapCom and Sam are other faves too, but I wouldn't be upset if they weren't included. I'd like Magma because he's such a badass MMX boss. I can see one of his hypers being a big ass flamethrower like you said. Plus his Theme is awesome. I've gotta stop getting hype for an expansion that isn't coming as well...
diztrukted
Member
Moons is by far my favorite nova player, watch his stream of him messing around with nova.....talk about breaking a character (or using them to max potential)
Karsticles
Member
Because they have different mechanics, startup, recovery, chip damage, follow-up possibilities, etc. This is not difficult to understand. You're putting far too much value in the aesthetics, and very little in the actual mechanics I typed out.
Phoenix Wright having a bunch of different evidence with tiny icons that you have to sort out mid-match is far more confusing than this system. Some people want to play simple characters like Wesker, and that's fine. I think this game lacks complex characters that you have to practice to mastery for months beyond execution requirements. The goal is not to make her a "character for everyone". A blue mana bar is plenty visual.
Well, you and I have different brains. I organized it the way my brain operates and organizes, and you would do it differently. I'm fine with that. I actually find the system very intuitive.
Then you need to think about it more.
I don't even know what your last sentence is talking about. Yeah, there are three different moves that all involve lightning, and they're on different inputs. I agree wit hyou.
That's like saying "Just figure out what you really want Dante's sword to mean, and then wrap it together in a way that makes sense". I get that the character is not for you, but it's a dream for me. I want this level of complexity and difficulty in a character. I'm not making this for anyone else but me. It's my fan moveset. All of your grievances amount to "I don't get it" and "I don't like it", because I explained very clearly how all of these are different and useful in various ways.
It's not used to just build Will, I just gave that string as one example.
Simoon is not like Dark Matter. Take more time and read the descriptions and think about what you're saying. Simoon appears in front of the opponent. Thus it has no travel time. Thus it appears anywhere on the screen, so you can use it against characters like Trish while playing keepaway. It causes a wall bounce and is special cancelable - that's where the similarities end.
I think you're forgetting that Nina also has drain, which gives +20 AP. 5 seconds? At 0AP, her meter gain looks like this:
1 second - 10 AP
2 seconds - 19 AP
3 seconds - 27 AP
3 seconds (180 frames) for anything in her moveset, and Sirocco >>>> Volcano as a move.
It's supposed to be a struggle to keep her AP up. Her stuff is really good, and she can't get it for free. But 1 second at 0 AP lets her Simoon x Flare, which is a good offensive position to be in.
Also, comparing two moves between characters directly is bad practice in character balance. Otherwise every character with a ground hyper needs to be Bionic Arm, and every projectile hyper needs to be Akuma's beam. Dormammu and Nina work on totally different systems.
Okay, you don't like it and she's not for you - move on. I don't like your Gene moveset and think it's boring as hell. And that's okay, because he's not for me. Your AP recovery values assume 0 AP. In that case, you bet I want her to get 10 AP back after using Bolt X. She needs it to survive, and 10 AP won't keep her going for long.
I specify that Drain has slow startup and OTGs. In practice, she won't be able to use it outside of combo enders. I considered making it unblockable since it doesn't hurt the opponent, but was worried about the ability to chain Sirocco + Drain ad infinitum.
I also considered giving her this ability, but decided against it:
Potion - (1 Bar) - Fills Nina's AP by 30.
I also considered letting her AP regenerate on its own over time at a slow rate (1 AP / sec) so if she ran out of AP and the opponent can pressure her she wouldn't be entirely screwed, but decided against it. The risk is appropriate for the character.
And you don't want to blow Sirocco all the time because it only lasts for 120 frames. Lets say she starts with 50 AP, and the first thing you do is burn Sirocco. Now you're at 24 AP. You have 120 frames, and use Will:
60 frames - +7 AP - 31 AP total
120 frames - +7 AP - 38 AP total.
So you've just lost yourself 12 AP in exchange for some mediocre chip damage. What if you do it again?
-26 AP = 12 AP left.
60 frames - +9 AP - 21 AP total.
120 frames - +8 AP - 29 AP total.
And a third time?
-26 AP = 3 AP left
60 frames - +9 AP = 12 AP total
120 frames - +8 AP = 20 AP total
Now you might say "yeah, you got three Sirocco's in a row", but that's not how this works in practice. I didn't say the move merely has "slow" startup, I said it has "heavy" startup. In other words, it's more on par with Stalking Flare. Saying you can chain multiple Siroccos together through Will is like saying Dormammu can chain 3 Stalking Flares together while charging 3 Dark Spells between each of them - it's just silly. Nina has to set up Sirocco, and then she has to make it count. She can't even guarantee mix-ups because opponents can pushblock her out. In practice, I actually imagine Sirocco being more of a "I need to chip you out" move than anything else. It has huge startup, has no invincibility, and doesn't pay for itself. In most situations, I would much rather spend 26 AP on 6 different 4 AP moves that might lead into combos or a screen blocker like Flame or Typhoon.
If anything, she's designed for spammability of her lower AP stuff, and the big stuff is only worth using if you're floating on a lot of AP. Bolt X only lasts the full 600 frames if Nina takes no damage. It's hard as hell to last 600 frames (10 seconds) in this game without taking any non-chip damage.
Don't forget that she's a 600K health character that can be snapped in. Anchoring her for the free 100 AP is a huge risk, and you're going to have to keep off of using her assists if you want that big AP bonus when she comes in.
Edit: I was watching some BoF2 gameplay right now, and it occurs to me that Nina's normal attack in the game is a projectile. So, I would probably make her s.H some kind of projectile to fit. Maybe I'll do an update and add normals and frame data.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I misread "Double tapping down and then hitting S will put Nina into a stance where she gains AP per second (60 frames)" as she only gets one AP per second. My mistake. And I like your Nina and I don't care that she's complex, I just don't think that a lot of what she does is going to be easily understandable to people watching and playing the game. It's going to be like, "ok she has 37 AP now so she can do such and such move but since there's only a 1 AP difference between these moves maybe she can do this and use a drain somewhere, and then..." etc etc. And the rate of meter build is going to be confusing to people for a while. She'd need a hell of a lot of playing to balance.
And outside of Roulette Gene is basically a Final Fight character with more types of punches...
And outside of Roulette Gene is basically a Final Fight character with more types of punches...
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
Good games earlier Hypernima. If I could give you one piece of advice to help you better it would be to focus on one team. It kinda seemed liked you were just picking random characters and doing random attacks with them during the games. You should stick to your Tron/Frank team. The team has pretty good synergy. You managed to get Lvl5 Frank once using the Tron/Frank THC. You need to master it. Just master your characters in general. You were dropping some vital character specific stuff. Like for example Frank combo's ending in camera x hper. I know their is definitly timing to do it, but you should not be dropping those that often, even in an online setting. I know it's a Tron thing to use jump H a lot but don't forget about your assists. Try using Frank shopping cart in conjunction with Tron's J.S. It's harder to deal with then just J.H. I hope you don't drop the game. Marvel is easy to pick up, but hard to get good at. Nobody learns a team overnight. Hell I spent months after Ultimate came out fine-tuning my team and that doesn't even count using their strengths and weakness to help each other.
The games were fun though. Very rarely do I use other characters against other people. I felt like it became an even playing feild with some diversity. I know I'm the scrubbiest Vergil and Dante ever lol.
Hey Karst in one of our games I punished Doom's foot dive with Dorm's lvl3. I thought it only hit on the ground, is Dorm's body safe too? I hit the upper half of him.
The games were fun though. Very rarely do I use other characters against other people. I felt like it became an even playing feild with some diversity. I know I'm the scrubbiest Vergil and Dante ever lol.
Hey Karst in one of our games I punished Doom's foot dive with Dorm's lvl3. I thought it only hit on the ground, is Dorm's body safe too? I hit the upper half of him.
Karsticles
Member
Well, the people watching the game just like flashy stuff. They don't need to understand what's going on. My wife watched the Clockwork vs. Neo FT15 without ever having touched Marvel 2 and was hype the entire time. All a casual spectator needs to be able to do is differentiate which guy is doing what...most of the time, haha.
The players...are often not all that different from the spectators outside of their character specialties. I mean, have you ever had a Dormammu besides me punish EMD with Chaotic Flame? I've read numerous posts, even today, that complain about things like Purification, and it's clear they just don't know what the hell they're talking about and have never used Dormammu. Hell, Viewtiful Joe has always been a good character, but it took ~1.5 years for people to get that he is good. The average person is a mindless scrub, even among the players.
I could standardize the spells to be in increments of 5 or something, but Nina is never going to be put into the game, and it sure wouldn't be my design, so I'll keep my little bit of faithful character transition for that. No use sacrificing integrity for usability when the character won't ever get the chance to be used in the first place, haha.
And yeah, the close AP values are part of what makes her so great. When I play Dormammu, I tend to charge Dark Spells like this.
1) Red.
2) Think for a tenth of a second. Do I want 3D0C? If no, then...
3) Blue.
4) Think for a tenth of a second. Do I want 1D2C or 2D1C?
5) Red or Blue as appropriate.
In other words, it's not until the last Dark Spell that I even know what I'm going for with Dormammu's Dark Spells. I'd like Nina to have that same level of decision making, but with far more depth.
Certain abilities, like Frost and Flare, seem really similar:
They both OTG, they're both character relative, they both have something appear to hit the opponent, etc. The big difference is that one appears above, and the other in front. I will be likely to use Spark against a character like Wolverine, since he spends a lot of time on the ground, and a move like Frost against a character like Magneto, since he likes to superjump into Magnetic Blast, which doesn't change his horizontal movement much.
The only two moves I didn't differentiate well were these:
They're rather same-y. At some point I'll do an update to her moveset, and I'll mess with them a bit to give them different roles. I think I'll also change Simoon to be cancelable into from specials and out of specials, so Nina can do something like this, rapid-fire style:
Simoon x Frost x Simoon x Flare x Simoon. Maybe I'll even have it reset the wall bounce counter. I'd like for 100 AP Nina to mean "crazy ass combos", and not "I guess I'll use Sirocco 4 times since I have so much AP". If I do the update, I'll add a combo section for her to show off what she can do with her moves. By the time I finished it the first time, it was 4AM and I was barely awake. I was honestly trying to figure out inputs for all of her moves because I was so tired. I might mess with Queen of Angels, too, because every time I look at it I wonder if it's actually worth the bar of meter just to lock characters out if you can't use Will to recharge your AP.
Hypernima is having severe team troubles. It's good that he played you, because if anyone can convince someone that you can use whoever you want and win in this game, it's you, Slasher.
I'm having trouble understanding this. How did you hit the "upper half" of someone with Dark Dimension, and what do you mean about whether Dormammu's body is safe?
Also, I watched your set with Jetman. What's with c.L to s.S with Hulk?
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
I'm down if you want.
Excellent.
Request sent.
Random Spencer+Dante THC is more frightening than combos. You get hit? Spencer kills you. You block? Get mixed up for days.
Karsticles
Member
FYI Slasher, when you respond like that I can't quote you using the quote button.
You and Solune make me curse at the TV. I've even said "Fucking Phoenix Wright" and then sighed for how stupid I sounded.
You and Solune make me curse at the TV. I've even said "Fucking Phoenix Wright" and then sighed for how stupid I sounded.
Dark Dimension has about a full second of invincibility, so maybe he foot dived into the hitbox on the ground? Or do you think Dormammu's body also has a hitbox on it?
SnakeSlashRO
Banned
Anyone have any quick advice on how the hell Nova (Nova more so than anyone else, but also hawkeye and frank west) can always catch me with a slide as I am falling to the ground from an attack or a jump. Its like even if I do a dive attack ( with Zero or X23 ) it seems nova will catch me with his slide anyway. ( the one that is like his cM or cH I dunno )
"God's Beard!"
Member
New Metal Gear Rising trailer is so hot. Poor DmC, just out of the factory with no warranty and already broken.
DeadPhoenix9065
Member
Do share please
"God's Beard!"
Member
Sorry, it got taken down in the time it took me to watch it LOL
But it'll be up on gamespot soon.
I completed a midscreen-to-corner FoF loop online before I completed a corner FoF loop. And I haven't even really practiced midscreen FoF loops. Online execution doesn't make any sense.
In other news, Strider has really dumb start of the round options. I've never felt so confident at the start of the round as I have with Strider on point.
In other news, Strider has really dumb start of the round options. I've never felt so confident at the start of the round as I have with Strider on point.
"God's Beard!"
Member
That's the best thing about double jumps.
SolarKnight
Member
What would you say are his best?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Anyone want to play? I have a little time.
I'm fond of any character that can make the opening an actual positioning thing versus "hey, let's play Mario Party, MASH!"
Meanwhile, I'm in love with this entry/snap mixup I made with Strider.
(With Form B active) Formation C - Ame-no-Murakame H (cross under) - Bomb Hits - Formation B shot
It's so cool looking and it leads into a full optimal combo too.
Against people that mash f.H at the start of the round, one f.H into Wall Cling is really slick. Strider is airborne on frame one of the move, and ends up behind them in a few more frames, so they completely whiff their heavy, letting Strider uncling/dive kick and approach more safely. You could also call an assist during the f.H OS, and depending on the assist and the character in question they might get punished. Since it'll flip them around, even if they don't get punished, they shouldn't be able to punish the assist so it can often lock down for pressure
Against people that f.H > cr.L, Strider's f.H > s.L or cr.L will beat most of them. Most characters can't duck under s.L with their cr.Ls, but some like Wolverine can. Strider's cr.L is still faster than Wolverine's, so it's mainly just being aware of which normal to use. You could also f.H > snapback if you really wanted to, as his snapback is mostly safe.
If someone goes for j.H, some characters will get hit by f.H, and Wolverine's df.H will get hit by the Arch Cut(from my experience), leading to a combo. Strider's j.H is also an amazing OS that can hit a lot of standing characters, so it's a pretty easy tech other j.Hs as well as being safe with OS Excalibur L.
You can also just outspace people with his normals. 4 frame rapid fire jab makes it hard to out speed him, and six frame medium makes it hard to out range him.
He has a lot of other options, but those are my main ones.
Also, when going for tick-throws, f.H > Formation B(Shot) is so good.
Not really, since it's hard to stay safe during wall clings enough to do it. Only thing I can say I've come up with is s.H > Wall Cling out of the corner, wall dive + Bolts, Excalibur M. A semi-safe way to get out of the corner and then approach.
Good Games Slasher!
I think i put up a decent fight against your main team, although I didn't win any games against it. It definitely takes some getting used to fighting your team, I can't just rush in like I can against most other teams... I feel like my strider is getting better.
Also we're any if those subteams actually subteams? Or were they just wright + random + random? I felt like the first two you used might've been actual secondary teams.
I'll post more details later
I think i put up a decent fight against your main team, although I didn't win any games against it. It definitely takes some getting used to fighting your team, I can't just rush in like I can against most other teams... I feel like my strider is getting better.
Also we're any if those subteams actually subteams? Or were they just wright + random + random? I felt like the first two you used might've been actual secondary teams.
I'll post more details later
"God's Beard!"
Member
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Told you guys Dahbomb likes the game
Karsticles
Member
The best thing to do against Slasher's team is find a sequence that breaks the barrier immediately. I think the easiest time I ever had fighting him was Doom/Iron Man and I just spammed Plasma Beam while calling Unibeam. It certainly takes guts for him to sit there collecting evidence while Dark Hole is on top of him, haha. If you must rush, go for command grabs. I'm curious what Slasher thinks, but Super Skrull is probably Wright's worst matchup.
Ohhh I didn't see that. I wondered why you kept whiffing those! ;-D Morrigan with that S tier cheerleading.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Speaking of shields, Dark Harmonizer pushing me away from Dormammu right as I did a command grab was some troll-ass shit.
He's now where most of the Megaman fan base was during the release of Megaman ZX.
Karsticles
Member
Lay that out for me more. I loved ZX except for the goddamn chibi art and voices. The gameplay was a true evolution of the X series, the abilities were sweet, and the bosses were fun. Loved the exploration element, too.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
Yea definitely great games. To be honest they were just on the fly teams. Just experimenting, never play those characters. I'm going to upload the part of the set where I start doing different Wright teams because I am curious on the feed back. I felt like Ghost Rider and Captain America were doing well for me.
As for Wrights worst match up. I have to say for me personally it's without a doubt Hawkeye. Super Skrull a very close second. Hawkeye can just lock wright down and it's hard for him to advance. Skrull can command throw right threw the shield and those stupid teleport punch attacks are deadly annoying. Dormmamu gets third place because it's really hard to get past purification and the fear of all of Dorm's supers. Also a good Wesker who knows to command throw is annoying.
Also how the heck do you multiquote in this forum lol.
Karsticles
Member
Click on the little "+" sign next to the "quote" link. It will turn into a "-" sign. Click several "+" signs, then hit "Reply" at the bottom. All of the "+" sign posts you clicked will be quoted for you to respond to.
We were desperate for anything as of ZX:Advent basically. Also, I still can't get the Metroidvania-ness as a positive. I think I've said it before that I don't like how Zero-lite it was, but if I had to be honest, yeah it was moderately enjoyable.
Yeah I did a decent job keeping him out with hawkeye. I managed to land quite a few command grabs with felicia, and I also managed to get hit with c.L while trying to command grab him alot too.
This is a revelation, I've been building mine manually via copy and paste.
Cool. Let me know if you ever want to experiment with other teams when we play, it was fun and I was able to try some characters I don't normally get to use without getting curbstomped.
I felt robbed that one match when taskmaster had nothing but red health left... and I still lost... damn!
Let me know when you upload that footage, also I wouldn't mind having the footage from the matches when you used your main team either if you can upload that too. (If not, no big deal.)
Karsticles
Member
Frank Tieri on board with more Marvel:
http://i.imgur.com/ul3dT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ul3dT.jpg
Make use of the anti-air missiles with Wright. Also, multi-hit attacks rock Maya's shield, because it doesn't benefit from damage decay. In other words, if Dark Hole hits 9 times for 20,000 damage, on an actual player it does ~120,000 due to damage decay. Against the shield it will do the full 180,000. Thus, Plasma Beam and Unibeam just rock her shield.
I know that feeling.
Killa Sasa
Member
Only character this game needs is J Jonah Jameson.
I've been looking for that picture of him in the red Tron Bonne machine (a Gustaff I think?) for the longest time because it was amazing.
I've been looking for that picture of him in the red Tron Bonne machine (a Gustaff I think?) for the longest time because it was amazing.
I've always felt that Phoenix Wright should have a similar special moveset with The Nickel Samurai, Edgeworth, motherfuckin Gumshoe. It just made sense in my head. His normals need to be buffed and not necessarily changed.
Haha I feel bad because I've BEEN salty, but I usually curse at myself. I just acknowledge you as the better player and I've built upon my mistakes with the intent on "I Need More Power".
Metal Gear Rising shits all over DmC, real talk.
With Starforce and ZX, the franchise really began to wane. Just a shame.
---
@Shaowebb, so with our findings with those random generated teams. Did you want us to post our findings in a certain format, or upload footage of tech? Been working on Strange/She-Hulk/Firebrand. Some pretty fun stuff, THC tech though LOL there isn't any, but there's some cool DHC synergy scattered out.
Karsticles
Member
Spencer makes me mad because I have to go into the air, and all Spencer players do is zipline in, which always hits me while I'm performing the goddamn superjump motion, and it's so positive on block that they get a full combo. Shit is dumb. And my normals are too slow to punish the ground zip, too, so he just gets in for free on my all day until my chastity belt breaks. Then he has Bionic Arm, which is basically a superior version of Gamma Crush, so I can't just say "FUCK OFF" for a moment. Ugh. I always try to air throw the zip line and get hit by it instead, too. -_- I hate him more than Vergil, but not more than Hidden Missiles.
JeTmAn81
Member
I hate it when a Spencer does an unsafe air grapple which makes me think it's a free air grab, only to have him tech it because I'm right at the end of grapple range. Sigh.
Karsticles
Member
It doesn't help that j.H is his hit confirm off of the zip.
My #4 wish for a hypothetical update is that Capcom tries to remove as much brainless stuff as possible. Make Spencer's hit confirm off of the zip j.S so the player has to make a decision, make Nova players learn the timing on throw conversions, and shorten the duration on the hard knockdown from Dante's j.S and Hammer by ~15 frames.